Why won't people address the massage shootings as the mental health issue rather than racism?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The recent wave of crimes against Asians is the worst in the last thirty years as far as I remembered. Yet very few of these crimes are classified as hate crimes. I have yet to see an announcement from FBI that they are investing the massage shooting to find out if this is a hate crime.

Aren’t there certain markers of hate crimes that need to be in evidence to classify? Are all crimes hate crimes?

In order to control public outrage, isn’t it better to say there is no evidence of a hate crime if it’s the truth? It doesn’t mean they won’t bring evidence to light if it’s found.

You mean, it’s better for white audiences to hear that a white man doesn’t seem to have committed a racially motivated crime? Because that is not what Asian Americans and women want to hear.

Not saying that. But why do groups *want* to hear their group is a target of something if the evidence isn’t there (yet)? I can’t understand that.

Our society is totally obsessed by race. That may be natural in any society with a long history of racism, but it also means we unconsciously forcing racial narratives when the evidence doesn't warrant it. The only evidence we think we need is the race of the victims and that's that.

The killer allegedly shouted something to the effect, “I am gonna kill Asians.” This is from one of the witnesses.

That is an uncorroborate report from a Korean newspaper. Also, the narrative that this was racially motivated emerged before that Korean report. The point is that we immediately jump to race as the primary motivator before the facts come out. Most people on this are positive that this all about race. Even those who may admit misogyny are ignoring the very real connection among misogyny, sex addiction and mental health. And who here even considered the class implications of low income sex workers forced into illegal activities to pay the rent while dealing with abusive men?That's a story as old as Jack the Ripper, yet we are mostlt ignoring it.

Every story has multiple narratives. But we prefer racial narratives to dominate over others whenever possible.

Actually, Asian American advocates are clear that this is about race, gender, and class. Keep up.

People say a lot of things, but the racial is narrative is clearly dominant. I didn't say it was exclusive. Also when I said "who here?" I meant on this thread. Mostly posters are saying they were targetted for their race. Very little discussion about violence against prostitutes.

I didn't even say it's wrong to focus on race. I just think it's it important to notice when you are doing and the real reasons why. But you all seem to have a lot of resistance to doing that kind of work. Racial work is only for other people and only accepted when the "correct" conclusions are drawn.

Yes, and according to you, Hitler was just having a bad day when he was at the end of the rope. According to you, you just need to see what Hitler had to say, that abhorring to H, he felt he needed to eliminate the problem because these people were.... (you fill in the blank).

I said nothing of the kind and neither did anyone else anywhere, ever.

Seems like you are dehumanizing the victims by giving voice to the killer. That’s been done before. Read Hanna Arendt, one of the greatest 20th century Jewish political philosophers whose lover was the great Nazi philosopher Martin Heidegger. She’ll tell you the horrible Nazi officers responsible for the atrocities were actually Ordinary Joes who worked 9-5 jobs - just like me and you. They had no particular motive or animosity for their actions. Hence the banality of evil.

Again, I did nothing of the kind.

I read Hannah Arendt and lots of other people too. Where does she say that discussing a killer's motivations dehumanizes the victims? And if she does say that, who says I have to agree with it? And if I did agree that the banality of evil applied to all Nazi soldiers, where does she say that it also applies to murderers who weren't paid to kill? And what did Arendt say about the banality of Hitler himself? I don't know the answer to that myself, if I read that I forgot it. But her personal library did include Mein Kampf and biographies about Hitler, so presumably she thought it worth it to consider what he had to say.

https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/hannah-arendt-collection-the-life-and-work-of-adolf-hitler-2015-04-24

I see in many of these posts Arendt’s own banality of evil analysis as applied to the killer, constantly asking for “proof” of this or that. Arendt’s analysis is not limited to Eichmann. Her analysis can be applied to anything - Holocaust, slavery, Jim Crow... According Arendt, you need not impute a particular evil motive bc in her analysis, you can always explain people’s action in practical and mundane way. Most people were simply going on about their daily lives doing their 9-5 job, pushing paper, reporting to their bosses, applying for promotion, etc. In the case of the Georgia killer, he might as well have been Camus’ stranger - someone detached, someone who just shot and killed people not knowing why, just going through his reflexive motions. And Yes, Camus’ Stranger straight up blamed the bright sunlight in the hot desert when he was asked why he killed an innocent man. In short, Camus’s Stranger was just having a bad day. There’s no reason to impute any motive beyond his reflexive motions. They just are.

Luckily for Arendt, despite her Nazi Heidegger lover, she was able to put sense in to her analysis. In the end, she was able to separate her need to analyze, constant need for facts, with Eichmann’s actions.

I'm not really sure where you are going with this. I think it started with a PP (you?) falsely attributing an absurd opinion to me. Now you are you quoting philosophers of the absurd and the evil about why you don't need facts or proof, you can just make assumptions based on whatever you see and take it from there. If that's what you think Arendt and Camus are all about, it's no wonder you think I'm absurd.

You were sounding a lot like Hannah Arendt in her insistence we need not read too much into Nazi's heinous crimes, that these people were mostly performing their 9-5 jobs as they were told, reporting to their bosses - not that they were anti-semites. I've bolded your statements above. And then you said, "I said nothing of the kind and neither did anyone else anywhere, ever." That's when I first mentioned Arendt to show you the parallel in your thinking. You insisted no one has EVER held your view with respect to the nazis. One of the greatest 20th-century Jewish political philosophers Hannah Arendt did. She wrote a book to prove her point. Not surprisingly, she had a Nazi lover. And then there are other things: "And who here even considered the class implications of low income sex workers forced into illegal activities to pay the rent while dealing with abusive men?" And incredibly you went on, "Very little discussion about violence against prostitutes." So, it's not the race in this case. It seems you want to explore the prostitution angle to see what role this had in the Georgia killing. Your point is clear. It was the prostitutes' fault, they brought the violence onto themselves. And in Nazi Germany, it wasn't anti-Semitism, to begin with. You seem to suggest we need to be more open-minded to see what Jews must have done to deserve their fate. You didn't explicitly say these things. But it is clear you are victim-blaming and victim-shaming.

No, I didn't say anything like this and there is no reasonable way you got any of this out of what I did say. You've also grossly misinterpreted Hannah Arendt's thesis thereby ignoring what her actual contributions are to the understanding of genocide, racism, and totalitarianism. Kind of a weird thing to do to a refugee from the Nazis, but hey, far be it from you to victim shame or anything like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

Are there stats on mass killings where courts have certified mental illness as the direct cause of the killings? I am guessing there aren't many certified cases. Plenty of mentally ill people do not engage in mass killings.

I believe the Colorado movie theater shooter had a guilty by reason of insanity defense but most don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If it was mental illness, then why don't we have similar mass shootings with mentally ill black/hispanic/asian gunmen killing large groups of white people?

Instead, it's a white guy aiming at a group of:
-Black parishoners at their Bible study (Dylan Roof)
-Hispanic/Latino families shopping at Wal-Mart (Patrick Crusis)
-Asian massage parlor workers (Robert Long)

Most mass shooters aim indiscriminately - Las Vegas shooting, Columbine, etc.

But in cases where all the victims are of predominantly one ethnic group and the shooter is of a different ethnicity, you need to first look at ethnic/racial hatred. There's not much of another explanation.

Further, if it was due to mental illness, we should see mass shooters of other races/ethnicities. We know mental illness is prevalent in those populations too. But we don't!

Virginia Tech. 2007. Asian gunman killed 32 people. Clearly mental illness, and discussed as so in the media.
Every shooting isn't racially motivated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

Are there stats on mass killings where courts have certified mental illness as the direct cause of the killings? I am guessing there aren't many certified cases. Plenty of mentally ill people do not engage in mass killings.

No stats, but if you look at high profile individual cases, there is often documented evidence of mental illness. Documented evidence in the Newtown and Parkland shootings, for example.

For the statement in bold, I didn't say otherwise. Please take a course in logic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

Are there stats on mass killings where courts have certified mental illness as the direct cause of the killings? I am guessing there aren't many certified cases. Plenty of mentally ill people do not engage in mass killings.

I believe the Colorado movie theater shooter had a guilty by reason of insanity defense but most don't.

If people are saying mental illness caused the Georgia killing, you can easily refute this by pointing out plenty of certified mentally ill people never engage in this type of behavior. Mental illness isn't the cause bc if it were, every time we have a certified illness, that should lead to mass killings. Plenty of sex addicts go on living normal lives. To say Georgia killing was mental is a red herring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

np here.

Yes, mental illness is a public health issues which affects crime. But that does not mean that every white guy who is depressed because he lost his job or got kicked out of his house gets to blame his major depression for gunning people down. There is a difference between a contributing factor and the primary motive. Sorry but too often these stories of mental illness are white guys doing bad things.

Also the more important issue among mental health advocates is not settling debates over whether a multiple homicide is a "hate crime" vs. "mental illness". They are concerned because people are arrested for disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, etc. because they are having a mental health episode and the police do not recognize it as such. They don't want people doing time for that, or for public indecency when they are found outside naked, or for refusing to leave a store or restaurant. They don't want street people incarcerated for minor offenses due to an episode. They want these minor offenses expunged, so they don't end up with a criminal record, and they want these people diverted into the mental health system for treatment. This shooter is not the guy they are fighting for. Nothing in the story so far suggests he is delusional, or unable to understand right from wrong.

Yes, there are real stories of mental illness causing a crime. But this isn't it, and most of the times it is suggested in the politics forum, it's not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

Are there stats on mass killings where courts have certified mental illness as the direct cause of the killings? I am guessing there aren't many certified cases. Plenty of mentally ill people do not engage in mass killings.

No stats, but if you look at high profile individual cases, there is often documented evidence of mental illness. Documented evidence in the Newtown and Parkland shootings, for example.

For the statement in bold, I didn't say otherwise. Please take a course in logic.

I am arguing logic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

Are there stats on mass killings where courts have certified mental illness as the direct cause of the killings? I am guessing there aren't many certified cases. Plenty of mentally ill people do not engage in mass killings.

I believe the Colorado movie theater shooter had a guilty by reason of insanity defense but most don't.

If people are saying mental illness caused the Georgia killing, you can easily refute this by pointing out plenty of certified mentally ill people never engage in this type of behavior. Mental illness isn't the cause bc if it were, every time we have a certified illness, that should lead to mass killings. Plenty of sex addicts go on living normal lives. To say Georgia killing was mental is a red herring.

Plenty of racists never shoot anybody either but for some reason that doesn't seem to apply here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

Are there stats on mass killings where courts have certified mental illness as the direct cause of the killings? I am guessing there aren't many certified cases. Plenty of mentally ill people do not engage in mass killings.

No stats, but if you look at high profile individual cases, there is often documented evidence of mental illness. Documented evidence in the Newtown and Parkland shootings, for example.

For the statement in bold, I didn't say otherwise. Please take a course in logic.

I am arguing logic.

No, you are not. Rewrite that as "Plenty of racist people do not engage in mass killings." Do you think that means racism was not the cause? If you don't, then you see what's wrong with you wrote.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The recent wave of crimes against Asians is the worst in the last thirty years as far as I remembered. Yet very few of these crimes are classified as hate crimes. I have yet to see an announcement from FBI that they are investing the massage shooting to find out if this is a hate crime.

Aren’t there certain markers of hate crimes that need to be in evidence to classify? Are all crimes hate crimes?

In order to control public outrage, isn’t it better to say there is no evidence of a hate crime if it’s the truth? It doesn’t mean they won’t bring evidence to light if it’s found.

You mean, it’s better for white audiences to hear that a white man doesn’t seem to have committed a racially motivated crime? Because that is not what Asian Americans and women want to hear.

Not saying that. But why do groups *want* to hear their group is a target of something if the evidence isn’t there (yet)? I can’t understand that.

Our society is totally obsessed by race. That may be natural in any society with a long history of racism, but it also means we unconsciously forcing racial narratives when the evidence doesn't warrant it. The only evidence we think we need is the race of the victims and that's that.

The killer allegedly shouted something to the effect, “I am gonna kill Asians.” This is from one of the witnesses.

That is an uncorroborate report from a Korean newspaper. Also, the narrative that this was racially motivated emerged before that Korean report. The point is that we immediately jump to race as the primary motivator before the facts come out. Most people on this are positive that this all about race. Even those who may admit misogyny are ignoring the very real connection among misogyny, sex addiction and mental health. And who here even considered the class implications of low income sex workers forced into illegal activities to pay the rent while dealing with abusive men?That's a story as old as Jack the Ripper, yet we are mostlt ignoring it.

Every story has multiple narratives. But we prefer racial narratives to dominate over others whenever possible.

Actually, Asian American advocates are clear that this is about race, gender, and class. Keep up.

People say a lot of things, but the racial is narrative is clearly dominant. I didn't say it was exclusive. Also when I said "who here?" I meant on this thread. Mostly posters are saying they were targetted for their race. Very little discussion about violence against prostitutes.

I didn't even say it's wrong to focus on race. I just think it's it important to notice when you are doing and the real reasons why. But you all seem to have a lot of resistance to doing that kind of work. Racial work is only for other people and only accepted when the "correct" conclusions are drawn.

Yes, and according to you, Hitler was just having a bad day when he was at the end of the rope. According to you, you just need to see what Hitler had to say, that abhorring to H, he felt he needed to eliminate the problem because these people were.... (you fill in the blank).

I said nothing of the kind and neither did anyone else anywhere, ever.

Seems like you are dehumanizing the victims by giving voice to the killer. That’s been done before. Read Hanna Arendt, one of the greatest 20th century Jewish political philosophers whose lover was the great Nazi philosopher Martin Heidegger. She’ll tell you the horrible Nazi officers responsible for the atrocities were actually Ordinary Joes who worked 9-5 jobs - just like me and you. They had no particular motive or animosity for their actions. Hence the banality of evil.

Again, I did nothing of the kind.

I read Hannah Arendt and lots of other people too. Where does she say that discussing a killer's motivations dehumanizes the victims? And if she does say that, who says I have to agree with it? And if I did agree that the banality of evil applied to all Nazi soldiers, where does she say that it also applies to murderers who weren't paid to kill? And what did Arendt say about the banality of Hitler himself? I don't know the answer to that myself, if I read that I forgot it. But her personal library did include Mein Kampf and biographies about Hitler, so presumably she thought it worth it to consider what he had to say.

https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/hannah-arendt-collection-the-life-and-work-of-adolf-hitler-2015-04-24

I see in many of these posts Arendt’s own banality of evil analysis as applied to the killer, constantly asking for “proof” of this or that. Arendt’s analysis is not limited to Eichmann. Her analysis can be applied to anything - Holocaust, slavery, Jim Crow... According Arendt, you need not impute a particular evil motive bc in her analysis, you can always explain people’s action in practical and mundane way. Most people were simply going on about their daily lives doing their 9-5 job, pushing paper, reporting to their bosses, applying for promotion, etc. In the case of the Georgia killer, he might as well have been Camus’ stranger - someone detached, someone who just shot and killed people not knowing why, just going through his reflexive motions. And Yes, Camus’ Stranger straight up blamed the bright sunlight in the hot desert when he was asked why he killed an innocent man. In short, Camus’s Stranger was just having a bad day. There’s no reason to impute any motive beyond his reflexive motions. They just are.

Luckily for Arendt, despite her Nazi Heidegger lover, she was able to put sense in to her analysis. In the end, she was able to separate her need to analyze, constant need for facts, with Eichmann’s actions.

I'm not really sure where you are going with this. I think it started with a PP (you?) falsely attributing an absurd opinion to me. Now you are you quoting philosophers of the absurd and the evil about why you don't need facts or proof, you can just make assumptions based on whatever you see and take it from there. If that's what you think Arendt and Camus are all about, it's no wonder you think I'm absurd.

You were sounding a lot like Hannah Arendt in her insistence we need not read too much into Nazi's heinous crimes, that these people were mostly performing their 9-5 jobs as they were told, reporting to their bosses - not that they were anti-semites. I've bolded your statements above. And then you said, "I said nothing of the kind and neither did anyone else anywhere, ever." That's when I first mentioned Arendt to show you the parallel in your thinking. You insisted no one has EVER held your view with respect to the nazis. One of the greatest 20th-century Jewish political philosophers Hannah Arendt did. She wrote a book to prove her point. Not surprisingly, she had a Nazi lover. And then there are other things: "And who here even considered the class implications of low income sex workers forced into illegal activities to pay the rent while dealing with abusive men?" And incredibly you went on, "Very little discussion about violence against prostitutes." So, it's not the race in this case. It seems you want to explore the prostitution angle to see what role this had in the Georgia killing. Your point is clear. It was the prostitutes' fault, they brought the violence onto themselves. And in Nazi Germany, it wasn't anti-Semitism, to begin with. You seem to suggest we need to be more open-minded to see what Jews must have done to deserve their fate. You didn't explicitly say these things. But it is clear you are victim-blaming and victim-shaming.

No, I didn't say anything like this and there is no reasonable way you got any of this out of what I did say. You've also grossly misinterpreted Hannah Arendt's thesis thereby ignoring what her actual contributions are to the understanding of genocide, racism, and totalitarianism. Kind of a weird thing to do to a refugee from the Nazis, but hey, far be it from you to victim shame or anything like that.

A Nazi refugee? I am sorry, but if you were, you wouldn't be so easy to scapegoat victims. You couldn't be so blind or deaf to not have seen or heard people scapegoating Jews for their problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

np here.

Yes, mental illness is a public health issues which affects crime. But that does not mean that every white guy who is depressed because he lost his job or got kicked out of his house gets to blame his major depression for gunning people down. There is a difference between a contributing factor and the primary motive. Sorry but too often these stories of mental illness are white guys doing bad things.

Also the more important issue among mental health advocates is not settling debates over whether a multiple homicide is a "hate crime" vs. "mental illness". They are concerned because people are arrested for disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, etc. because they are having a mental health episode and the police do not recognize it as such. They don't want people doing time for that, or for public indecency when they are found outside naked, or for refusing to leave a store or restaurant. They don't want street people incarcerated for minor offenses due to an episode. They want these minor offenses expunged, so they don't end up with a criminal record, and they want these people diverted into the mental health system for treatment. This shooter is not the guy they are fighting for. Nothing in the story so far suggests he is delusional, or unable to understand right from wrong.

Yes, there are real stories of mental illness causing a crime. But this isn't it, and most of the times it is suggested in the politics forum, it's not.

Mental health advocates are also concerned that mental health issues are grossly neglected in this country and this leads a large variety of negative outcomes only one of which is criminal behavior. It's true that they don't argue about hate crimes vs. mental illness. Only the rest of the country argues about that because the rest of the country is ableist as shit, and so they ignore the mental illness all around them until one of them does something violent, then they lock him up, don't give him treatment and call it justice.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The recent wave of crimes against Asians is the worst in the last thirty years as far as I remembered. Yet very few of these crimes are classified as hate crimes. I have yet to see an announcement from FBI that they are investing the massage shooting to find out if this is a hate crime.

Aren’t there certain markers of hate crimes that need to be in evidence to classify? Are all crimes hate crimes?

In order to control public outrage, isn’t it better to say there is no evidence of a hate crime if it’s the truth? It doesn’t mean they won’t bring evidence to light if it’s found.

You mean, it’s better for white audiences to hear that a white man doesn’t seem to have committed a racially motivated crime? Because that is not what Asian Americans and women want to hear.

Not saying that. But why do groups *want* to hear their group is a target of something if the evidence isn’t there (yet)? I can’t understand that.

Our society is totally obsessed by race. That may be natural in any society with a long history of racism, but it also means we unconsciously forcing racial narratives when the evidence doesn't warrant it. The only evidence we think we need is the race of the victims and that's that.

The killer allegedly shouted something to the effect, “I am gonna kill Asians.” This is from one of the witnesses.

That is an uncorroborate report from a Korean newspaper. Also, the narrative that this was racially motivated emerged before that Korean report. The point is that we immediately jump to race as the primary motivator before the facts come out. Most people on this are positive that this all about race. Even those who may admit misogyny are ignoring the very real connection among misogyny, sex addiction and mental health. And who here even considered the class implications of low income sex workers forced into illegal activities to pay the rent while dealing with abusive men?That's a story as old as Jack the Ripper, yet we are mostlt ignoring it.

Every story has multiple narratives. But we prefer racial narratives to dominate over others whenever possible.

Actually, Asian American advocates are clear that this is about race, gender, and class. Keep up.

People say a lot of things, but the racial is narrative is clearly dominant. I didn't say it was exclusive. Also when I said "who here?" I meant on this thread. Mostly posters are saying they were targetted for their race. Very little discussion about violence against prostitutes.

I didn't even say it's wrong to focus on race. I just think it's it important to notice when you are doing and the real reasons why. But you all seem to have a lot of resistance to doing that kind of work. Racial work is only for other people and only accepted when the "correct" conclusions are drawn.

Yes, and according to you, Hitler was just having a bad day when he was at the end of the rope. According to you, you just need to see what Hitler had to say, that abhorring to H, he felt he needed to eliminate the problem because these people were.... (you fill in the blank).

I said nothing of the kind and neither did anyone else anywhere, ever.

Seems like you are dehumanizing the victims by giving voice to the killer. That’s been done before. Read Hanna Arendt, one of the greatest 20th century Jewish political philosophers whose lover was the great Nazi philosopher Martin Heidegger. She’ll tell you the horrible Nazi officers responsible for the atrocities were actually Ordinary Joes who worked 9-5 jobs - just like me and you. They had no particular motive or animosity for their actions. Hence the banality of evil.

Again, I did nothing of the kind.

I read Hannah Arendt and lots of other people too. Where does she say that discussing a killer's motivations dehumanizes the victims? And if she does say that, who says I have to agree with it? And if I did agree that the banality of evil applied to all Nazi soldiers, where does she say that it also applies to murderers who weren't paid to kill? And what did Arendt say about the banality of Hitler himself? I don't know the answer to that myself, if I read that I forgot it. But her personal library did include Mein Kampf and biographies about Hitler, so presumably she thought it worth it to consider what he had to say.

https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/hannah-arendt-collection-the-life-and-work-of-adolf-hitler-2015-04-24

I see in many of these posts Arendt’s own banality of evil analysis as applied to the killer, constantly asking for “proof” of this or that. Arendt’s analysis is not limited to Eichmann. Her analysis can be applied to anything - Holocaust, slavery, Jim Crow... According Arendt, you need not impute a particular evil motive bc in her analysis, you can always explain people’s action in practical and mundane way. Most people were simply going on about their daily lives doing their 9-5 job, pushing paper, reporting to their bosses, applying for promotion, etc. In the case of the Georgia killer, he might as well have been Camus’ stranger - someone detached, someone who just shot and killed people not knowing why, just going through his reflexive motions. And Yes, Camus’ Stranger straight up blamed the bright sunlight in the hot desert when he was asked why he killed an innocent man. In short, Camus’s Stranger was just having a bad day. There’s no reason to impute any motive beyond his reflexive motions. They just are.

Luckily for Arendt, despite her Nazi Heidegger lover, she was able to put sense in to her analysis. In the end, she was able to separate her need to analyze, constant need for facts, with Eichmann’s actions.

I'm not really sure where you are going with this. I think it started with a PP (you?) falsely attributing an absurd opinion to me. Now you are you quoting philosophers of the absurd and the evil about why you don't need facts or proof, you can just make assumptions based on whatever you see and take it from there. If that's what you think Arendt and Camus are all about, it's no wonder you think I'm absurd.

You were sounding a lot like Hannah Arendt in her insistence we need not read too much into Nazi's heinous crimes, that these people were mostly performing their 9-5 jobs as they were told, reporting to their bosses - not that they were anti-semites. I've bolded your statements above. And then you said, "I said nothing of the kind and neither did anyone else anywhere, ever." That's when I first mentioned Arendt to show you the parallel in your thinking. You insisted no one has EVER held your view with respect to the nazis. One of the greatest 20th-century Jewish political philosophers Hannah Arendt did. She wrote a book to prove her point. Not surprisingly, she had a Nazi lover. And then there are other things: "And who here even considered the class implications of low income sex workers forced into illegal activities to pay the rent while dealing with abusive men?" And incredibly you went on, "Very little discussion about violence against prostitutes." So, it's not the race in this case. It seems you want to explore the prostitution angle to see what role this had in the Georgia killing. Your point is clear. It was the prostitutes' fault, they brought the violence onto themselves. And in Nazi Germany, it wasn't anti-Semitism, to begin with. You seem to suggest we need to be more open-minded to see what Jews must have done to deserve their fate. You didn't explicitly say these things. But it is clear you are victim-blaming and victim-shaming.

No, I didn't say anything like this and there is no reasonable way you got any of this out of what I did say. You've also grossly misinterpreted Hannah Arendt's thesis thereby ignoring what her actual contributions are to the understanding of genocide, racism, and totalitarianism. Kind of a weird thing to do to a refugee from the Nazis, but hey, far be it from you to victim shame or anything like that.

A Nazi refugee? I am sorry, but if you were, you wouldn't be so easy to scapegoat victims. You couldn't be so blind or deaf to not have seen or heard people scapegoating Jews for their problems.

Geez. I was talking about Hannah Arendt.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

Are there stats on mass killings where courts have certified mental illness as the direct cause of the killings? I am guessing there aren't many certified cases. Plenty of mentally ill people do not engage in mass killings.

I believe the Colorado movie theater shooter had a guilty by reason of insanity defense but most don't.

If people are saying mental illness caused the Georgia killing, you can easily refute this by pointing out plenty of certified mentally ill people never engage in this type of behavior. Mental illness isn't the cause bc if it were, every time we have a certified illness, that should lead to mass killings. Plenty of sex addicts go on living normal lives. To say Georgia killing was mental is a red herring.

This is the dumbest comment on this entire thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

Are there stats on mass killings where courts have certified mental illness as the direct cause of the killings? I am guessing there aren't many certified cases. Plenty of mentally ill people do not engage in mass killings.

No stats, but if you look at high profile individual cases, there is often documented evidence of mental illness. Documented evidence in the Newtown and Parkland shootings, for example.

For the statement in bold, I didn't say otherwise. Please take a course in logic.

I am arguing logic.

No, you are not. Rewrite that as "Plenty of racist people do not engage in mass killings." Do you think that means racism was not the cause? If you don't, then you see what's wrong with you wrote.

Someone who targets 3 Asian businesses is not racially profiling? They weren't side by side by side. From what I heard, he drove nearly an hour (?) to get to the next target. That sounds like premeditation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

Are there stats on mass killings where courts have certified mental illness as the direct cause of the killings? I am guessing there aren't many certified cases. Plenty of mentally ill people do not engage in mass killings.

No stats, but if you look at high profile individual cases, there is often documented evidence of mental illness. Documented evidence in the Newtown and Parkland shootings, for example.

For the statement in bold, I didn't say otherwise. Please take a course in logic.

I am arguing logic.

No, you are not. Rewrite that as "Plenty of racist people do not engage in mass killings." Do you think that means racism was not the cause? If you don't, then you see what's wrong with you wrote.

Someone who targets 3 Asian businesses is not racially profiling? They weren't side by side by side. From what I heard, he drove nearly an hour (?) to get to the next target. That sounds like premeditation.

Maybe, but that isn't a logical argument. Like I said, take course.