Let's have the abortion talk here. Right here. This thread.

[Anonymous]

No one on this board is going to be persuaded by anyone else on this board.

I've known anti-choicers who change their minds when they or their daughters are pregnant.

I've never met a pro-choicer who changed her mind but the anti groups trot them out all of the time. Maybe theyre real.

Fortunately, on November 4 we got some reassurance that we won't really HAVE to persuade the unpersuadables. The next 2-4 Supreme Court appointments will be pro-choice judges. After that, the pro-choice movement's job is to:

a) Reduce unwanted pregnancies;
b) make contraception, emergency contraception, and the abortion pill more widely accessible;
c) invest in education for young doctors to specialize in reproductive care;
d) invest in clinics-- only 3% of U.S. counties have an abortion provider;
e) press the DOJ and other local authorities to protect providers.

To the antis: it's here to stay. Decide whether you want to reduce it by not supporting ideologues whose primary concern is limiting sexual activity and who perpetuate lies abut the pill and premarital sex. Don't bother to be one-issue voters. Legislators have gotten as far as they're going to get in limiting our rights.

This has been fun to read. Now let's get to the business of making the most of a legal and political situation that's unlikely to change in the coming decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Just because someone makes a choice that doesn't go along with yours, doesn't mean they are anti-choice. Read back to where this was explained earlier.

OK, I have been following this thread from the beginning and don't remember this particular semantics debate, there have been several.

When I say "anti-choice," I (and a lot of other people) am referencing people who are "anti" MY choice to keep something like this between me and my doctor. I don't CARE what choice other people make with regard to their unintended pregnancies, or really, their lives in general. But if this is not something you understand, I will call these people "anti-abortion" because that is clearer.

Also, individuals in the anti-abortion crowd are "choosing" to shoot people, which is not something I would choose.

Just because they don't believe in a choice you would make, doesn't make them against choices. I would never in my life have an abortion. I however would never wish for it to be illegal, because the choice should be there for others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Just because someone makes a choice that doesn't go along with yours, doesn't mean they are anti-choice. Read back to where this was explained earlier.

OK, I have been following this thread from the beginning and don't remember this particular semantics debate, there have been several.

When I say "anti-choice," I (and a lot of other people) am referencing people who are "anti" MY choice to keep something like this between me and my doctor. I don't CARE what choice other people make with regard to their unintended pregnancies, or really, their lives in general. But if this is not something you understand, I will call these people "anti-abortion" because that is clearer.

Also, individuals in the anti-abortion crowd are "choosing" to shoot people, which is not something I would choose.

Just because they don't believe in a choice you would make, doesn't make them against choices. I would never in my life have an abortion. I however would never wish for it to be illegal, because the choice should be there for others.

Does the living growing embryo have a right to protection from harm?

[Anonymous]

Let's do this again. "Anti-choicers" are people who are against MY CHOICE to have an abortion. Of course they want me to "choose" to keep the baby or give it up for adoption. However, the Supreme Court decided that their "belief" in my choice as to what I want to do with my body is irrelevant.

As you point out, you can be pro-life for yourself, and if you say you would never have an abortion I guess you are. It is the people who are "pro-life" on behalf of others who are anti-choice.

The label "pro-life" is, IMO, BS because many, many women will die if the right to have an abortion is taken away.

And to 10:15, hear hear!

[Anonymous]

Why not REDUCE the violence instead of wanting to increase it?

[Anonymous]

bump why stop with 13 pages?

[Anonymous]

For those who want to understand the reality behind the late-term abortions Dr Tiller carried out. http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/patients-remember-dr-tiller/?hp

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let's do this again. "Anti-choicers" are people who are against MY CHOICE to have an abortion. Of course they want me to "choose" to keep the baby or give it up for adoption. However, the Supreme Court decided that their "belief" in my choice as to what I want to do with my body is irrelevant.

As you point out, you can be pro-life for yourself, and if you say you would never have an abortion I guess you are. It is the people who are "pro-life" on behalf of others who are anti-choice.

The label "pro-life" is, IMO, BS because many, many women will die if the right to have an abortion is taken away.

And to 10:15, hear hear!

However there are many, many choices one can make prior to being faced with an unwanted pregnancy. You can make a choice to have sex, or not to have sex. You can choose to use birth control, or you can choose not to. I don't know many people who get themselves into a situation of unwanted pregnancy, without making choices.

They still aren't anti-choice. they are pro-life. They feel that life begins at conception, and that it is their duty to try and protect the unborn. They aren't trying to get you to not have a choice, because there were plenty of choices that led up to the unplanned pregnancy. They wish that you would choose to give that baby life, instead of snuffing it out before it ever has a chance.

I am using generalisations about pro-lifers who aren't whacked out nut jobs bombing clinics. I am also not talking about those who have require life saving abortions, incest, or rape.

Here is something I do find odd though. So many pro-choice people are against the death penalty. Why is one life worth more than another?

Some pro-lifers are for the death penalty. Is the life of that criminal only not worth saving, but murdering?

[Anonymous]

You can choose to use birth control, or you can choose not to.

First of all, I chose birth control, and it failed.

But, there are many "pro-lifers" who think that using the birth control I chose, the pill, is like having an abortion every month. This is the crowd who wants no sex education, no access to birth control, that sex be only be for procreation, no kissing before marriage, purity rings, promising your virginity to your father who keeps it until you get married, etc. etc. etc. That pregnancy and disease are punishments for "loose morals". It is an anti-woman position, and these are the most staunch of the "pro-lifers". Some of them even think that an adopted child carries the sins of its parents so it is wrong to adopt. Seriously.

I'm really tired of arguing the semantics. People who are pro-choice think the choices after an unintended pregnancy should include the choice of abortion. "Pro-lifers" think that the life of the fetus at any point in gestation is more important than anything else, including the women who will die undergoing unsafe abortions that will surely happen if the right to this choice is taken away.

Got anything else besides arguing about the terminology?

[Anonymous]

I don't know many people who get themselves into a situation of unwanted pregnancy, without making choices.

Just because you "don't know many" doesn't mean they're not millions of them all over the world. Aren't one in three women in America sexually assaulted at some point? I'm really not sure of that statistic, so someone back me up, or not.

I'm not going to address the death penalty in this thread because it's off topic. But you want another big f-ing fallacy? The fact that the limited government" Republicans are the ones who want the government poking its nose into my uterus.

"Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives."
- Ronald Reagan

[Anonymous]

As one of the PPs noted above, not all pregnancies are terminated because they are unwanted. Some pregnancies are terminated even though the parents desperately wanted the baby, but the baby had severe birth defects that were incompatible with life and carrying the baby to term would have imperiled the mother's life as well.

Further, for those of you think it's as easy as using birth control or keeping your legs closed, who among us really matches the alleged perfect ideal? Who among us had zero premarital sex, and never ever had sex when you weren't open to the idea of starting a family? Who hasn't had a moment of panic when you thought you might be late, and then experienced extreme relief when your period started? If you meet the ideal, then good for you. If not, you might be human and might want to consider improving your level of empathy for the people who are walking around next to you, shopping at the same stores, sitting in your play groups, and being your friendly neighbors.

[Anonymous]

See here's what I hear by the "you have the choice not to have sex" people . . . it isn't JUST about the baby. It is about punishment. You want to punish people for not living up to your moral code. And since some don't then they should be punished by being FORCED to have a baby.

Having a baby is not something I would ever force someone to do. It is . . . .well, more than just difficult (and that is just the "normal" easy pregnancies). No matter how wonderful I consider my pregnancy it is also an unbelievably INVASIVE process. Ditto childbirth. And, while I sort of get those who are "speaking for" the unborn and their alleged rights. Knowing what it is like to be pregnant, I would NEVER think to place those rights over the rights of the mother. Ever.

As for adoption, yes, wouldn't that be nice. But, there are all sorts of difficulties with that. This includes the aforementioned invasiveness but also the stigma that always seems to surround the woman in those situations (I've seen THAT first hand). Some people would like to keep their private mistakes private. If you all don't understand that, then congrats for being perfect. Not all of us are.

And in terms of "keeping the baby" b/c they are a blessing. While I believe my child is a blessing, I had my child under ideal circumstances for me. That is NOT the case for everyone. I can think of little that would be worse than a woman/couple keeping an unwanted child. Or a child that they are ill-equipped (on many levels) to care for. The newspapers and tv regularly have stories of horrific child abuse, children living in absolute poverty, children who are neglected . . . I'm sorry, but that is not quality of life and I wish those parents had made trip to planned parenthood to save those poor kids a lifetime of hurt, therapy, emotion. . .

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry, but that is not quality of life and I wish those parents had made trip to planned parenthood to save those poor kids a lifetime of hurt, therapy, emotion. . .

Thank you, PP. That's what I was driving at way upthread when I said that more people should have abortions. Also, I expect many of you have read Freakonomics which points out the correlation between crime rates plummeting in the U.S. starting 15 years after Roe v. Wade, because there weren't as many unwanted, neglected, mess-up children around to cause trouble. About the same time in Romania, Ceau?escu banned abortion and about the same amount of time later, there were huge problems with child abandonment, poverty, homelessness and crime.

[Anonymous]

Essentially pro-life here, though I understand the arguements re: pro-choice and would not advocate against it. IF I had to vote specifically for it I would not be able to do so.

I am just curious why more women don't choose adoption. How is abortion, especially if performed after the first few weeks an easier decision in the long run. Just curious why more don't advocate for nine months of inconvenience and then life.

Also - while a sensative subject I find it difficult to accept the ' my child will not be perfect so I am going to abort issue'. No parent would choose to be in this position and I am so sorry anyone has to go through this. The anguish must be terrible but this represents a slippery slope IMO.

Finally, what do other pro-lifers think about the thousands of IVF embryos. We had to go that route for our current children and I can't reconcile my anti-abortion stance with destroying those embryos - if life is life when egg meets sperms how else do you slice it? I say this as I get ready for another IVF when I am not sure I want another baby. ACtually I find the notion of a baby easier to deal with than anotehr pregnancy.....Thank God I only have two embryos left!!