Why Asian American kids excel. It’s not ‘Tiger Moms.’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've got mixed Asian/White kids, live in a community with lots of Asians, and I've had a good long look behind the facade.

They are expected to get jobs that pay well and have higher status, and are strongly discouraged from pursuing studies in other fields, even if it's their dream.

If they don't do well, they're not just letting themselves down, they're letting the whole family down, including generations of ancestors. And they will shame their parents, because they'll make them look bad to the community. They'll shame their community to outsiders. Is that enough pressure?

Parents do say commonly things like, "Only an A minus? What happened? Why not an A?" and the kids say those things to each other and to themselves. I've heard it plenty.

Shame. Shame is a big one. If you haven't been raised in a shaming culture, you won't get how powerful it is. You're invalidated and shamed for everything you do and feel, and who you feel you are, if it does not agree with the elders' ideas of who you should be, what you should do, and how you're supposed to feel. And the shame has no boundaries. Your shame as a child is heaped on your parents and family.

Yes, there are a lot of success stories. What you will not be allowed to see, because outward appearances mean everything, are the casualties. I've heard lots of stories and witnessed lots of misery and dysfunction. You want to study BPD, get deep into some Asian communities. It's rampant.

+1

I'm a white person married to an Asian and raising our biracial kids. Somehow, I managed to succeed and be very motivated (full academic scholarships to Ivy undergrad and grad, great career) while still having a wonderful, supportive, and happy family growing up. DH on the other hand was raised in the traditional shame culture and suffers from confidence and self-esteem issues. He also has a terrible relationship with his parents, whom he resents to this day. You don't have to model a shame culture to help your kids succeed. There's no one right way to support their success.

One more thing -- I'm not sure saying someone is a doctor or dentist or whatnot is the same thing as saying they are successful. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a doctor who went into the field because of passion for medicine and helping others than for prestige! I think there's a lot of conflation of monetary compensation with success in the Asian community. I think remuneration is part of success, but personal fulfillment has got to be in there, too.

(FWIW, in case someone wants to cry sour grapes, I'm in tech and DH is a partner, so we're well-remunerated, too. But I am really enjoying my career, while DH is unhappy, in part because he mostly chose his career for prestige the way I think many Asians consciously or unconsciously do.)

1. How did you manage to receive a full academic scholarship to an Ivy League school as an undergraduate student? I must be missing something.
2. What is a "traditional shame culture"? You really do not understand Asian culture if you think there is a pervasive "traditional shame culture" for Asians in general and that lack of self confidence and self esteem results from this "traditional shame culture" which is somehow unique and common to Asians.
3. Another news for you, "conflation of monetary compensation with success" is not limited to the Asian community and it would probably be worse in white community and other racial communities. You really do not understand the Asian culture and being married to an Asian does not make you an expert on Asian culture and it also does not allow you to make sweeping assumptions and promote stereotypes about Asians either.

You aren't too sharp, are you PP? You've never heard of someone getting academic scholarships? This is a foreign concept to you? Let me guess, you're not Asian?

I'm not PP, but I think the question was raised because when I was applying to college (about 25 years ago) many (if not all) of the Ivies did not give academic scholarships to undergraduates who were not being recruited for a sport. They only gave financial aid, or so I was advised by the counselor at the well regarded independent high school that I attended. I was accepted to Ivies, but chose a state university because of the full academic scholarship.

She is so ignorant and dim that she wasn't even able to pick up the point of the post. The funny thing is she that she then proceeds to call the poster "You aren't too sharp, are you PP?" I am the poster and I am Asian American! This is beyond idiotic to the point of being comical.

Aww, typical Asian. Has to stoop to ad hominem attacks because she can't take any sort of criticism. I give you a D- for your argument style.

OH NO WHAT WILL YOUR PARENTS SAY!

[Anonymous]

The Ivies don't give academic scholarships. No merit aid. They give financial aid. Is that what you received? But no, you didn't receive a full ACADEMIC scholarship to the Ivy League.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

I don't think Asian cultures are better, but what you wrote there shows your complete ignorance and stupidity. Asian grandparents would say to save the children; the Asian parents would feel the same. Asians revere elders in a sense that they are more wise because they have more experience. I have told my gifted child the same thing - that while she may some day surpass me in her academic knowledge, I will always be wiser than her (except maybe if I start going senile). And a lot of Asian parents live with their adult children. The concept of putting your aging parents in an old folks home is not as prevalent amongst the Asian cultures.

Asian families focus on their children, and that includes older parents that focus on their adult children. I don't necessarily think that's a good thing, but you are very confused about the Asian culture. And yes, I say "Asian" because what PP wrote is true.. many of the Asian cultures do have this in common.

LOL my complete ignorance and stupidity includes being married to an Asian, having asked him and my BILs and SILs this question, and having them answer the way I've indicated. Oh, and 15+ years of international development work in which we use this exercise to get people thinking about cultural differences.

Sorry you have a problem with Asian culture!

Well, I think that you are ignorant and stupid (or your DH is) because you married someone raised in "shame culture". And it surely sounds like a dysfunctional family where they will pick someone like you who sees their culture in such disdain.

Were you knocked up before marriage?

He didn't want to marry any Asian women, he said they are bitches. You're totally proving him right

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've got mixed Asian/White kids, live in a community with lots of Asians, and I've had a good long look behind the facade.

They are expected to get jobs that pay well and have higher status, and are strongly discouraged from pursuing studies in other fields, even if it's their dream.

If they don't do well, they're not just letting themselves down, they're letting the whole family down, including generations of ancestors. And they will shame their parents, because they'll make them look bad to the community. They'll shame their community to outsiders. Is that enough pressure?

Parents do say commonly things like, "Only an A minus? What happened? Why not an A?" and the kids say those things to each other and to themselves. I've heard it plenty.

Shame. Shame is a big one. If you haven't been raised in a shaming culture, you won't get how powerful it is. You're invalidated and shamed for everything you do and feel, and who you feel you are, if it does not agree with the elders' ideas of who you should be, what you should do, and how you're supposed to feel. And the shame has no boundaries. Your shame as a child is heaped on your parents and family.

Yes, there are a lot of success stories. What you will not be allowed to see, because outward appearances mean everything, are the casualties. I've heard lots of stories and witnessed lots of misery and dysfunction. You want to study BPD, get deep into some Asian communities. It's rampant.

+1

I'm a white person married to an Asian and raising our biracial kids. Somehow, I managed to succeed and be very motivated (full academic scholarships to Ivy undergrad and grad, great career) while still having a wonderful, supportive, and happy family growing up. DH on the other hand was raised in the traditional shame culture and suffers from confidence and self-esteem issues. He also has a terrible relationship with his parents, whom he resents to this day. You don't have to model a shame culture to help your kids succeed. There's no one right way to support their success.

One more thing -- I'm not sure saying someone is a doctor or dentist or whatnot is the same thing as saying they are successful. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a doctor who went into the field because of passion for medicine and helping others than for prestige! I think there's a lot of conflation of monetary compensation with success in the Asian community. I think remuneration is part of success, but personal fulfillment has got to be in there, too.

(FWIW, in case someone wants to cry sour grapes, I'm in tech and DH is a partner, so we're well-remunerated, too. But I am really enjoying my career, while DH is unhappy, in part because he mostly chose his career for prestige the way I think many Asians consciously or unconsciously do.)

1. How did you manage to receive a full academic scholarship to an Ivy League school as an undergraduate student? I must be missing something.
2. What is a "traditional shame culture"? You really do not understand Asian culture if you think there is a pervasive "traditional shame culture" for Asians in general and that lack of self confidence and self esteem results from this "traditional shame culture" which is somehow unique and common to Asians.
3. Another news for you, "conflation of monetary compensation with success" is not limited to the Asian community and it would probably be worse in white community and other racial communities. You really do not understand the Asian culture and being married to an Asian does not make you an expert on Asian culture and it also does not allow you to make sweeping assumptions and promote stereotypes about Asians either.

You aren't too sharp, are you PP? You've never heard of someone getting academic scholarships? This is a foreign concept to you? Let me guess, you're not Asian?

Please tell us Ivy League degree holder who disdains prestige doing something passionate not for the prestige nor money but likes to mention the Ivy league school and be well remunerated as well nevertheless . We are dying to know how you managed to receive "full academic scholarship" to an Ivy League school as an undergraduate student? This would be a valuable information for many students/parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've got mixed Asian/White kids, live in a community with lots of Asians, and I've had a good long look behind the facade.

They are expected to get jobs that pay well and have higher status, and are strongly discouraged from pursuing studies in other fields, even if it's their dream.

If they don't do well, they're not just letting themselves down, they're letting the whole family down, including generations of ancestors. And they will shame their parents, because they'll make them look bad to the community. They'll shame their community to outsiders. Is that enough pressure?

Parents do say commonly things like, "Only an A minus? What happened? Why not an A?" and the kids say those things to each other and to themselves. I've heard it plenty.

Shame. Shame is a big one. If you haven't been raised in a shaming culture, you won't get how powerful it is. You're invalidated and shamed for everything you do and feel, and who you feel you are, if it does not agree with the elders' ideas of who you should be, what you should do, and how you're supposed to feel. And the shame has no boundaries. Your shame as a child is heaped on your parents and family.

Yes, there are a lot of success stories. What you will not be allowed to see, because outward appearances mean everything, are the casualties. I've heard lots of stories and witnessed lots of misery and dysfunction. You want to study BPD, get deep into some Asian communities. It's rampant.

+1

I'm a white person married to an Asian and raising our biracial kids. Somehow, I managed to succeed and be very motivated (full academic scholarships to Ivy undergrad and grad, great career) while still having a wonderful, supportive, and happy family growing up. DH on the other hand was raised in the traditional shame culture and suffers from confidence and self-esteem issues. He also has a terrible relationship with his parents, whom he resents to this day. You don't have to model a shame culture to help your kids succeed. There's no one right way to support their success.

One more thing -- I'm not sure saying someone is a doctor or dentist or whatnot is the same thing as saying they are successful. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a doctor who went into the field because of passion for medicine and helping others than for prestige! I think there's a lot of conflation of monetary compensation with success in the Asian community. I think remuneration is part of success, but personal fulfillment has got to be in there, too.

(FWIW, in case someone wants to cry sour grapes, I'm in tech and DH is a partner, so we're well-remunerated, too. But I am really enjoying my career, while DH is unhappy, in part because he mostly chose his career for prestige the way I think many Asians consciously or unconsciously do.)

1. How did you manage to receive a full academic scholarship to an Ivy League school as an undergraduate student? I must be missing something.
2. What is a "traditional shame culture"? You really do not understand Asian culture if you think there is a pervasive "traditional shame culture" for Asians in general and that lack of self confidence and self esteem results from this "traditional shame culture" which is somehow unique and common to Asians.
3. Another news for you, "conflation of monetary compensation with success" is not limited to the Asian community and it would probably be worse in white community and other racial communities. You really do not understand the Asian culture and being married to an Asian does not make you an expert on Asian culture and it also does not allow you to make sweeping assumptions and promote stereotypes about Asians either.

You aren't too sharp, are you PP? You've never heard of someone getting academic scholarships? This is a foreign concept to you? Let me guess, you're not Asian?

The Ivy League schools do not give academic scholarships. They give only need-based aid. It is a deal they made with each other years ago. In essence, they believe that everyone they accept is an academic high-achiever, so they agreed not to compete with each other by offering free rides to rich kids. They were sued for antitrust violation and settled the case in the 90s, but the settlement is that they can still decide individually to offer only need-based aid but they can't compare notes on financial aid offers to students.

So anyone who says their child received a full academic scholarship to an Ivy League college is not telling the truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Ivies don't give academic scholarships. No merit aid. They give financial aid. Is that what you received? But no, you didn't receive a full ACADEMIC scholarship to the Ivy League.

Different poster here, but i do know that at least some of the Ivies did give academic scholarships many years ago. They have only given financial aid for a long time, but they used to give merit aid, also. I was offered an almost full tuition merit scholarship to one Ivy and a smaller one to another back in the late 70s, so I know they were giving them still at that time. I don't know exactly when they switched, but it was possible in the past to get merit scholarships to an Ivy League school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

Oh, I am sorry that your ILs do not have a friendly relationship with your DH. Maybe the fault lies with that one particular Asian family, because, their son did make the mistake of marrying you.

Americans have healthy family relationships? That is the funniest thing I have ever heard. Your divorce stats, deadbeat dads, single mothers, teen pregnancies and rampant sexual diseases do not support this. You do not have a culture of a stable family. People have multiple step-parents and half siblings, people have extra marital affairs all the time. Maybe Americans need the culture of shame, because their culture of shamelessness is breeding a generation of immoral underachievers.

^^ Yes, an Asian Dragon mom is even better than a Asian Tiger mom. She steers her entire family towards nobleness.

However, here is the interpretation of a Dragon mom by American culture -



And here is another one -


BUT, HEY! They have "friendly relations" with their "adult" children. They do not force their child to study hard. They force their children to make sex tapes and send them to therapy for "sex addiction". But all of that is better, much, much, much, better than - making their kids study!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Ivies don't give academic scholarships. No merit aid. They give financial aid. Is that what you received? But no, you didn't receive a full ACADEMIC scholarship to the Ivy League.

Different poster here, but i do know that at least some of the Ivies did give academic scholarships many years ago. They have only given financial aid for a long time, but they used to give merit aid, also. I was offered an almost full tuition merit scholarship to one Ivy and a smaller one to another back in the late 70s, so I know they were giving them still at that time. I don't know exactly when they switched, but it was possible in the past to get merit scholarships to an Ivy League school.

If that is the case, when did this "passionate" person who is an expert on Asian culture receive her full academic scholarship to an Ivy league school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Ivies don't give academic scholarships. No merit aid. They give financial aid. Is that what you received? But no, you didn't receive a full ACADEMIC scholarship to the Ivy League.

Different poster here, but i do know that at least some of the Ivies did give academic scholarships many years ago. They have only given financial aid for a long time, but they used to give merit aid, also. I was offered an almost full tuition merit scholarship to one Ivy and a smaller one to another back in the late 70s, so I know they were giving them still at that time. I don't know exactly when they switched, but it was possible in the past to get merit scholarships to an Ivy League school.

If that is the case, when did this "passionate" person who is an expert on Asian culture receive her full academic scholarship to an Ivy league school?

If she attended college in the 70s, she is in her late 60s or early 70s. She must be suffering from dementia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Ivies don't give academic scholarships. No merit aid. They give financial aid. Is that what you received? But no, you didn't receive a full ACADEMIC scholarship to the Ivy League.

Different poster here, but i do know that at least some of the Ivies did give academic scholarships many years ago. They have only given financial aid for a long time, but they used to give merit aid, also. I was offered an almost full tuition merit scholarship to one Ivy and a smaller one to another back in the late 70s, so I know they were giving them still at that time. I don't know exactly when they switched, but it was possible in the past to get merit scholarships to an Ivy League school.

If that is the case, when did this "passionate" person who is an expert on Asian culture receive her full academic scholarship to an Ivy league school?

Why does it matter when the poster received the scholarship?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

I don't think Asian cultures are better, but what you wrote there shows your complete ignorance and stupidity. Asian grandparents would say to save the children; the Asian parents would feel the same. Asians revere elders in a sense that they are more wise because they have more experience. I have told my gifted child the same thing - that while she may some day surpass me in her academic knowledge, I will always be wiser than her (except maybe if I start going senile). And a lot of Asian parents live with their adult children. The concept of putting your aging parents in an old folks home is not as prevalent amongst the Asian cultures.

Asian families focus on their children, and that includes older parents that focus on their adult children. I don't necessarily think that's a good thing, but you are very confused about the Asian culture. And yes, I say "Asian" because what PP wrote is true.. many of the Asian cultures do have this in common.

LOL my complete ignorance and stupidity includes being married to an Asian, having asked him and my BILs and SILs this question, and having them answer the way I've indicated. Oh, and 15+ years of international development work in which we use this exercise to get people thinking about cultural differences.

Sorry you have a problem with Asian culture!

Well, I think that you are ignorant and stupid (or your DH is) because you married someone raised in "shame culture". And it surely sounds like a dysfunctional family where they will pick someone like you who sees their culture in such disdain.

Were you knocked up before marriage?

He didn't want to marry any Asian women, he said they are bitches. You're totally proving him right

Actually, your DH does not know me. But, he does know his own mother, sisters and other female relations - and if he thinks that they are bitches, who am I to disagree?

And then usually men try and marry someone like their own mom - so he chose you! So, YAY, the son of a bitch got his own bitch!

AND ---> (because your 100% is my 50%).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

I don't think Asian cultures are better, but what you wrote there shows your complete ignorance and stupidity. Asian grandparents would say to save the children; the Asian parents would feel the same. Asians revere elders in a sense that they are more wise because they have more experience. I have told my gifted child the same thing - that while she may some day surpass me in her academic knowledge, I will always be wiser than her (except maybe if I start going senile). And a lot of Asian parents live with their adult children. The concept of putting your aging parents in an old folks home is not as prevalent amongst the Asian cultures.

Asian families focus on their children, and that includes older parents that focus on their adult children. I don't necessarily think that's a good thing, but you are very confused about the Asian culture. And yes, I say "Asian" because what PP wrote is true.. many of the Asian cultures do have this in common.

LOL my complete ignorance and stupidity includes being married to an Asian, having asked him and my BILs and SILs this question, and having them answer the way I've indicated. Oh, and 15+ years of international development work in which we use this exercise to get people thinking about cultural differences.

Sorry you have a problem with Asian culture!

Please name the international development organizations you are working/have worked for. I want to know exactly which organizations use this insane example to illustrate the difference between cultures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Ivies don't give academic scholarships. No merit aid. They give financial aid. Is that what you received? But no, you didn't receive a full ACADEMIC scholarship to the Ivy League.

Different poster here, but i do know that at least some of the Ivies did give academic scholarships many years ago. They have only given financial aid for a long time, but they used to give merit aid, also. I was offered an almost full tuition merit scholarship to one Ivy and a smaller one to another back in the late 70s, so I know they were giving them still at that time. I don't know exactly when they switched, but it was possible in the past to get merit scholarships to an Ivy League school.

If that is the case, when did this "passionate" person who is an expert on Asian culture receive her full academic scholarship to an Ivy league school?

If she attended college in the 70s, she is in her late 60s or early 70s. She must be suffering from dementia.

People who started college in the late 70s and early 80s are in their 50s. Pretty simple math, actually. And it's unusual for people in their 50s and even 60s to have dementia.

[Anonymous]

I guess the nice thing about this thread is that it shows that both Asian-Americans and non-Asian-Americans resort to ad hominem attacks and ridiculous cultural generalizations. So it's true that under the skin, we really are all alike!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Ivies don't give academic scholarships. No merit aid. They give financial aid. Is that what you received? But no, you didn't receive a full ACADEMIC scholarship to the Ivy League.

Different poster here, but i do know that at least some of the Ivies did give academic scholarships many years ago. They have only given financial aid for a long time, but they used to give merit aid, also. I was offered an almost full tuition merit scholarship to one Ivy and a smaller one to another back in the late 70s, so I know they were giving them still at that time. I don't know exactly when they switched, but it was possible in the past to get merit scholarships to an Ivy League school.

If that is the case, when did this "passionate" person who is an expert on Asian culture receive her full academic scholarship to an Ivy league school?

If she attended college in the 70s, she is in her late 60s or early 70s. She must be suffering from dementia.

People who started college in the late 70s and early 80s are in their 50s. Pretty simple math, actually. And it's unusual for people in their 50s and even 60s to have dementia.

She could have engaged in some "passion" and resist the prestige of the Ivy League school for few years so if she started in the late 70s, that would make her age 60 something at least.