Why Asian American kids excel. It’s not ‘Tiger Moms.’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well, of course Indian and Chinese parents are separate groups, just like Blacks and Whites are separate groups. We are racially, culturally, linguistically and geographically different. However, what is common is that our family and social structures and values are the same. Another aspect is that in US, we are interacting with each other as Asians and we are seen by Americans as being Asian and somewhat similar. That would never have been possible in India or China. In US, we face the same bamboo ceilings, the same struggles, and adhere to the same ideals of family...so the distinctions get blurred.

.

The same ideals of family, among people from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, China, Vietnam, Japan, Korea, Philippines, Thailand, Taiwan...? Wow. How culturally homogeneous Asia apparently is.

Yes, indeed. The parents put children first in these culture. There is respect for the elders and a sense of duty towards extended family. Hospitality to others is a big part of the family. The parents will sacrifice their own comforts for their children. Older relatives are looked after and respected in the family.

It is truly an Asian thing.

Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

I don't think Asian cultures are better, but what you wrote there shows your complete ignorance and stupidity. Asian grandparents would say to save the children; the Asian parents would feel the same. Asians revere elders in a sense that they are more wise because they have more experience. I have told my gifted child the same thing - that while she may some day surpass me in her academic knowledge, I will always be wiser than her (except maybe if I start going senile). And a lot of Asian parents live with their adult children. The concept of putting your aging parents in an old folks home is not as prevalent amongst the Asian cultures.

Asian families focus on their children, and that includes older parents that focus on their adult children. I don't necessarily think that's a good thing, but you are very confused about the Asian culture. And yes, I say "Asian" because what PP wrote is true.. many of the Asian cultures do have this in common.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've got mixed Asian/White kids, live in a community with lots of Asians, and I've had a good long look behind the facade.

They are expected to get jobs that pay well and have higher status, and are strongly discouraged from pursuing studies in other fields, even if it's their dream.

If they don't do well, they're not just letting themselves down, they're letting the whole family down, including generations of ancestors. And they will shame their parents, because they'll make them look bad to the community. They'll shame their community to outsiders. Is that enough pressure?

Parents do say commonly things like, "Only an A minus? What happened? Why not an A?" and the kids say those things to each other and to themselves. I've heard it plenty.

Shame. Shame is a big one. If you haven't been raised in a shaming culture, you won't get how powerful it is. You're invalidated and shamed for everything you do and feel, and who you feel you are, if it does not agree with the elders' ideas of who you should be, what you should do, and how you're supposed to feel. And the shame has no boundaries. Your shame as a child is heaped on your parents and family.

Yes, there are a lot of success stories. What you will not be allowed to see, because outward appearances mean everything, are the casualties. I've heard lots of stories and witnessed lots of misery and dysfunction. You want to study BPD, get deep into some Asian communities. It's rampant.

+1

I'm a white person married to an Asian and raising our biracial kids. Somehow, I managed to succeed and be very motivated (full academic scholarships to Ivy undergrad and grad, great career) while still having a wonderful, supportive, and happy family growing up. DH on the other hand was raised in the traditional shame culture and suffers from confidence and self-esteem issues. He also has a terrible relationship with his parents, whom he resents to this day. You don't have to model a shame culture to help your kids succeed. There's no one right way to support their success.

One more thing -- I'm not sure saying someone is a doctor or dentist or whatnot is the same thing as saying they are successful. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a doctor who went into the field because of passion for medicine and helping others than for prestige! I think there's a lot of conflation of monetary compensation with success in the Asian community. I think remuneration is part of success, but personal fulfillment has got to be in there, too.

(FWIW, in case someone wants to cry sour grapes, I'm in tech and DH is a partner, so we're well-remunerated, too. But I am really enjoying my career, while DH is unhappy, in part because he mostly chose his career for prestige the way I think many Asians consciously or unconsciously do.)

1. How did you manage to receive a full academic scholarship to an Ivy League school as an undergraduate student? I must be missing something.
2. What is a "traditional shame culture"? You really do not understand Asian culture if you think there is a pervasive "traditional shame culture" for Asians in general and that lack of self confidence and self esteem results from this "traditional shame culture" which is somehow unique and common to Asians.
3. Another news for you, "conflation of monetary compensation with success" is not limited to the Asian community and it would probably be worse in white community and other racial communities. You really do not understand the Asian culture and being married to an Asian does not make you an expert on Asian culture and it also does not allow you to make sweeping assumptions and promote stereotypes about Asians either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

I don't think Asian cultures are better, but what you wrote there shows your complete ignorance and stupidity. Asian grandparents would say to save the children; the Asian parents would feel the same. Asians revere elders in a sense that they are more wise because they have more experience. I have told my gifted child the same thing - that while she may some day surpass me in her academic knowledge, I will always be wiser than her (except maybe if I start going senile). And a lot of Asian parents live with their adult children. The concept of putting your aging parents in an old folks home is not as prevalent amongst the Asian cultures.

Asian families focus on their children, and that includes older parents that focus on their adult children. I don't necessarily think that's a good thing, but you are very confused about the Asian culture. And yes, I say "Asian" because what PP wrote is true.. many of the Asian cultures do have this in common.

LOL my complete ignorance and stupidity includes being married to an Asian, having asked him and my BILs and SILs this question, and having them answer the way I've indicated. Oh, and 15+ years of international development work in which we use this exercise to get people thinking about cultural differences.

Sorry you have a problem with Asian culture!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well, of course Indian and Chinese parents are separate groups, just like Blacks and Whites are separate groups. We are racially, culturally, linguistically and geographically different. However, what is common is that our family and social structures and values are the same. Another aspect is that in US, we are interacting with each other as Asians and we are seen by Americans as being Asian and somewhat similar. That would never have been possible in India or China. In US, we face the same bamboo ceilings, the same struggles, and adhere to the same ideals of family...so the distinctions get blurred.

.

The same ideals of family, among people from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, China, Vietnam, Japan, Korea, Philippines, Thailand, Taiwan...? Wow. How culturally homogeneous Asia apparently is.

Yes, indeed. The parents put children first in these culture. There is respect for the elders and a sense of duty towards extended family. Hospitality to others is a big part of the family. The parents will sacrifice their own comforts for their children. Older relatives are looked after and respected in the family.

It is truly an Asian thing.

Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

You don't have a clue about the Asian culture!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've got mixed Asian/White kids, live in a community with lots of Asians, and I've had a good long look behind the facade.

They are expected to get jobs that pay well and have higher status, and are strongly discouraged from pursuing studies in other fields, even if it's their dream.

If they don't do well, they're not just letting themselves down, they're letting the whole family down, including generations of ancestors. And they will shame their parents, because they'll make them look bad to the community. They'll shame their community to outsiders. Is that enough pressure?

Parents do say commonly things like, "Only an A minus? What happened? Why not an A?" and the kids say those things to each other and to themselves. I've heard it plenty.

Shame. Shame is a big one. If you haven't been raised in a shaming culture, you won't get how powerful it is. You're invalidated and shamed for everything you do and feel, and who you feel you are, if it does not agree with the elders' ideas of who you should be, what you should do, and how you're supposed to feel. And the shame has no boundaries. Your shame as a child is heaped on your parents and family.

Yes, there are a lot of success stories. What you will not be allowed to see, because outward appearances mean everything, are the casualties. I've heard lots of stories and witnessed lots of misery and dysfunction. You want to study BPD, get deep into some Asian communities. It's rampant.

+1

I'm a white person married to an Asian and raising our biracial kids. Somehow, I managed to succeed and be very motivated (full academic scholarships to Ivy undergrad and grad, great career) while still having a wonderful, supportive, and happy family growing up. DH on the other hand was raised in the traditional shame culture and suffers from confidence and self-esteem issues. He also has a terrible relationship with his parents, whom he resents to this day. You don't have to model a shame culture to help your kids succeed. There's no one right way to support their success.

One more thing -- I'm not sure saying someone is a doctor or dentist or whatnot is the same thing as saying they are successful. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a doctor who went into the field because of passion for medicine and helping others than for prestige! I think there's a lot of conflation of monetary compensation with success in the Asian community. I think remuneration is part of success, but personal fulfillment has got to be in there, too.

(FWIW, in case someone wants to cry sour grapes, I'm in tech and DH is a partner, so we're well-remunerated, too. But I am really enjoying my career, while DH is unhappy, in part because he mostly chose his career for prestige the way I think many Asians consciously or unconsciously do.)

1. How did you manage to receive a full academic scholarship to an Ivy League school as an undergraduate student? I must be missing something.
2. What is a "traditional shame culture"? You really do not understand Asian culture if you think there is a pervasive "traditional shame culture" for Asians in general and that lack of self confidence and self esteem results from this "traditional shame culture" which is somehow unique and common to Asians.
3. Another news for you, "conflation of monetary compensation with success" is not limited to the Asian community and it would probably be worse in white community and other racial communities. You really do not understand the Asian culture and being married to an Asian does not make you an expert on Asian culture and it also does not allow you to make sweeping assumptions and promote stereotypes about Asians either.

You aren't too sharp, are you PP? You've never heard of someone getting academic scholarships? This is a foreign concept to you? Let me guess, you're not Asian?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well, of course Indian and Chinese parents are separate groups, just like Blacks and Whites are separate groups. We are racially, culturally, linguistically and geographically different. However, what is common is that our family and social structures and values are the same. Another aspect is that in US, we are interacting with each other as Asians and we are seen by Americans as being Asian and somewhat similar. That would never have been possible in India or China. In US, we face the same bamboo ceilings, the same struggles, and adhere to the same ideals of family...so the distinctions get blurred.

.

The same ideals of family, among people from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, China, Vietnam, Japan, Korea, Philippines, Thailand, Taiwan...? Wow. How culturally homogeneous Asia apparently is.

Yes, indeed. The parents put children first in these culture. There is respect for the elders and a sense of duty towards extended family. Hospitality to others is a big part of the family. The parents will sacrifice their own comforts for their children. Older relatives are looked after and respected in the family.

It is truly an Asian thing.

Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

You don't have a clue about the Asian culture!

If it weren't true you wouldn't be so upset right now. The insight is painful, I know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

I don't think Asian cultures are better, but what you wrote there shows your complete ignorance and stupidity. Asian grandparents would say to save the children; the Asian parents would feel the same. Asians revere elders in a sense that they are more wise because they have more experience. I have told my gifted child the same thing - that while she may some day surpass me in her academic knowledge, I will always be wiser than her (except maybe if I start going senile). And a lot of Asian parents live with their adult children. The concept of putting your aging parents in an old folks home is not as prevalent amongst the Asian cultures.

Asian families focus on their children, and that includes older parents that focus on their adult children. I don't necessarily think that's a good thing, but you are very confused about the Asian culture. And yes, I say "Asian" because what PP wrote is true.. many of the Asian cultures do have this in common.

LOL my complete ignorance and stupidity includes being married to an Asian, having asked him and my BILs and SILs this question, and having them answer the way I've indicated. Oh, and 15+ years of international development work in which we use this exercise to get people thinking about cultural differences.

Sorry you have a problem with Asian culture!

LOL, so your random sampling of your ILs, and some research makes you think your know the Asian culture!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've got mixed Asian/White kids, live in a community with lots of Asians, and I've had a good long look behind the facade.

They are expected to get jobs that pay well and have higher status, and are strongly discouraged from pursuing studies in other fields, even if it's their dream.

If they don't do well, they're not just letting themselves down, they're letting the whole family down, including generations of ancestors. And they will shame their parents, because they'll make them look bad to the community. They'll shame their community to outsiders. Is that enough pressure?

Parents do say commonly things like, "Only an A minus? What happened? Why not an A?" and the kids say those things to each other and to themselves. I've heard it plenty.

Shame. Shame is a big one. If you haven't been raised in a shaming culture, you won't get how powerful it is. You're invalidated and shamed for everything you do and feel, and who you feel you are, if it does not agree with the elders' ideas of who you should be, what you should do, and how you're supposed to feel. And the shame has no boundaries. Your shame as a child is heaped on your parents and family.

Yes, there are a lot of success stories. What you will not be allowed to see, because outward appearances mean everything, are the casualties. I've heard lots of stories and witnessed lots of misery and dysfunction. You want to study BPD, get deep into some Asian communities. It's rampant.

+1

I'm a white person married to an Asian and raising our biracial kids. Somehow, I managed to succeed and be very motivated (full academic scholarships to Ivy undergrad and grad, great career) while still having a wonderful, supportive, and happy family growing up. DH on the other hand was raised in the traditional shame culture and suffers from confidence and self-esteem issues. He also has a terrible relationship with his parents, whom he resents to this day. You don't have to model a shame culture to help your kids succeed. There's no one right way to support their success.

One more thing -- I'm not sure saying someone is a doctor or dentist or whatnot is the same thing as saying they are successful. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a doctor who went into the field because of passion for medicine and helping others than for prestige! I think there's a lot of conflation of monetary compensation with success in the Asian community. I think remuneration is part of success, but personal fulfillment has got to be in there, too.

(FWIW, in case someone wants to cry sour grapes, I'm in tech and DH is a partner, so we're well-remunerated, too. But I am really enjoying my career, while DH is unhappy, in part because he mostly chose his career for prestige the way I think many Asians consciously or unconsciously do.)

1. How did you manage to receive a full academic scholarship to an Ivy League school as an undergraduate student? I must be missing something.
2. What is a "traditional shame culture"? You really do not understand Asian culture if you think there is a pervasive "traditional shame culture" for Asians in general and that lack of self confidence and self esteem results from this "traditional shame culture" which is somehow unique and common to Asians.
3. Another news for you, "conflation of monetary compensation with success" is not limited to the Asian community and it would probably be worse in white community and other racial communities. You really do not understand the Asian culture and being married to an Asian does not make you an expert on Asian culture and it also does not allow you to make sweeping assumptions and promote stereotypes about Asians either.

You aren't too sharp, are you PP? You've never heard of someone getting academic scholarships? This is a foreign concept to you? Let me guess, you're not Asian?

I'm not PP, but I think the question was raised because when I was applying to college (about 25 years ago) many (if not all) of the Ivies did not give academic scholarships to undergraduates who were not being recruited for a sport. They only gave financial aid, or so I was advised by the counselor at the well regarded independent high school that I attended. I was accepted to Ivies, but chose a state university because of the full academic scholarship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

I don't think Asian cultures are better, but what you wrote there shows your complete ignorance and stupidity. Asian grandparents would say to save the children; the Asian parents would feel the same. Asians revere elders in a sense that they are more wise because they have more experience. I have told my gifted child the same thing - that while she may some day surpass me in her academic knowledge, I will always be wiser than her (except maybe if I start going senile). And a lot of Asian parents live with their adult children. The concept of putting your aging parents in an old folks home is not as prevalent amongst the Asian cultures.

Asian families focus on their children, and that includes older parents that focus on their adult children. I don't necessarily think that's a good thing, but you are very confused about the Asian culture. And yes, I say "Asian" because what PP wrote is true.. many of the Asian cultures do have this in common.

LOL my complete ignorance and stupidity includes being married to an Asian, having asked him and my BILs and SILs this question, and having them answer the way I've indicated. Oh, and 15+ years of international development work in which we use this exercise to get people thinking about cultural differences.

Sorry you have a problem with Asian culture!

You are completely ignorant about Asian culture and yet you pretend to be an "expert". Truly idiotic! Even dangerous that you supposedly work in "international development" field. What a joke. I bet you received your "prestige" degree in "international development" as well and may even pretend to speak this Asian language. What a farce!

I bet you went to your "Ivy undergraduate and graduate schools" for your "passion" as opposed to the pursuit of "prestige". You should hear your self speak!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well, of course Indian and Chinese parents are separate groups, just like Blacks and Whites are separate groups. We are racially, culturally, linguistically and geographically different. However, what is common is that our family and social structures and values are the same. Another aspect is that in US, we are interacting with each other as Asians and we are seen by Americans as being Asian and somewhat similar. That would never have been possible in India or China. In US, we face the same bamboo ceilings, the same struggles, and adhere to the same ideals of family...so the distinctions get blurred.

.

The same ideals of family, among people from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, China, Vietnam, Japan, Korea, Philippines, Thailand, Taiwan...? Wow. How culturally homogeneous Asia apparently is.

Yes, indeed. The parents put children first in these culture. There is respect for the elders and a sense of duty towards extended family. Hospitality to others is a big part of the family. The parents will sacrifice their own comforts for their children. Older relatives are looked after and respected in the family.

It is truly an Asian thing.

Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

NP here

PP - your post shows you really don't understand Asian culture - absolutely no clue. It's totally OK but don't post on topics you really don't know anything about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

I don't think Asian cultures are better, but what you wrote there shows your complete ignorance and stupidity. Asian grandparents would say to save the children; the Asian parents would feel the same. Asians revere elders in a sense that they are more wise because they have more experience. I have told my gifted child the same thing - that while she may some day surpass me in her academic knowledge, I will always be wiser than her (except maybe if I start going senile). And a lot of Asian parents live with their adult children. The concept of putting your aging parents in an old folks home is not as prevalent amongst the Asian cultures.

Asian families focus on their children, and that includes older parents that focus on their adult children. I don't necessarily think that's a good thing, but you are very confused about the Asian culture. And yes, I say "Asian" because what PP wrote is true.. many of the Asian cultures do have this in common.

LOL my complete ignorance and stupidity includes being married to an Asian, having asked him and my BILs and SILs this question, and having them answer the way I've indicated. Oh, and 15+ years of international development work in which we use this exercise to get people thinking about cultural differences.

Sorry you have a problem with Asian culture!

Well, I think that you are ignorant and stupid (or your DH is) because you married someone raised in "shame culture". And it surely sounds like a dysfunctional family where they will pick someone like you who sees their culture in such disdain.

Were you knocked up before marriage?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've got mixed Asian/White kids, live in a community with lots of Asians, and I've had a good long look behind the facade.

They are expected to get jobs that pay well and have higher status, and are strongly discouraged from pursuing studies in other fields, even if it's their dream.

If they don't do well, they're not just letting themselves down, they're letting the whole family down, including generations of ancestors. And they will shame their parents, because they'll make them look bad to the community. They'll shame their community to outsiders. Is that enough pressure?

Parents do say commonly things like, "Only an A minus? What happened? Why not an A?" and the kids say those things to each other and to themselves. I've heard it plenty.

Shame. Shame is a big one. If you haven't been raised in a shaming culture, you won't get how powerful it is. You're invalidated and shamed for everything you do and feel, and who you feel you are, if it does not agree with the elders' ideas of who you should be, what you should do, and how you're supposed to feel. And the shame has no boundaries. Your shame as a child is heaped on your parents and family.

Yes, there are a lot of success stories. What you will not be allowed to see, because outward appearances mean everything, are the casualties. I've heard lots of stories and witnessed lots of misery and dysfunction. You want to study BPD, get deep into some Asian communities. It's rampant.

+1

I'm a white person married to an Asian and raising our biracial kids. Somehow, I managed to succeed and be very motivated (full academic scholarships to Ivy undergrad and grad, great career) while still having a wonderful, supportive, and happy family growing up. DH on the other hand was raised in the traditional shame culture and suffers from confidence and self-esteem issues. He also has a terrible relationship with his parents, whom he resents to this day. You don't have to model a shame culture to help your kids succeed. There's no one right way to support their success.

One more thing -- I'm not sure saying someone is a doctor or dentist or whatnot is the same thing as saying they are successful. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a doctor who went into the field because of passion for medicine and helping others than for prestige! I think there's a lot of conflation of monetary compensation with success in the Asian community. I think remuneration is part of success, but personal fulfillment has got to be in there, too.

(FWIW, in case someone wants to cry sour grapes, I'm in tech and DH is a partner, so we're well-remunerated, too. But I am really enjoying my career, while DH is unhappy, in part because he mostly chose his career for prestige the way I think many Asians consciously or unconsciously do.)

1. How did you manage to receive a full academic scholarship to an Ivy League school as an undergraduate student? I must be missing something.
2. What is a "traditional shame culture"? You really do not understand Asian culture if you think there is a pervasive "traditional shame culture" for Asians in general and that lack of self confidence and self esteem results from this "traditional shame culture" which is somehow unique and common to Asians.
3. Another news for you, "conflation of monetary compensation with success" is not limited to the Asian community and it would probably be worse in white community and other racial communities. You really do not understand the Asian culture and being married to an Asian does not make you an expert on Asian culture and it also does not allow you to make sweeping assumptions and promote stereotypes about Asians either.

You aren't too sharp, are you PP? You've never heard of someone getting academic scholarships? This is a foreign concept to you? Let me guess, you're not Asian?

I'm not PP, but I think the question was raised because when I was applying to college (about 25 years ago) many (if not all) of the Ivies did not give academic scholarships to undergraduates who were not being recruited for a sport. They only gave financial aid, or so I was advised by the counselor at the well regarded independent high school that I attended. I was accepted to Ivies, but chose a state university because of the full academic scholarship.

She is so ignorant and dim that she wasn't even able to pick up the point of the post. The funny thing is she that she then proceeds to call the poster "You aren't too sharp, are you PP?" I am the poster and I am Asian American! This is beyond idiotic to the point of being comical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You aren't too sharp, are you PP? You've never heard of someone getting academic scholarships? This is a foreign concept to you? Let me guess, you're not Asian?

There are no academic scholarships for colleges in the Ivy League.

As a graduate of an Ivy League college who thinks that the Ivy League is totally overrated, this is something I'm kind of embarrassed to know, because people usually use it to prove that they are REAL Ivy Leaguers and those other people who claim to be Ivy Leaguers are shamming poseurs. Nonetheless, it's a fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Interestingly, no. Parents don't put children first. Asian cultures tend to elevate elders -- which means that children are pretty low on the totem pole. That's why their individual happiness doesn't matter as much as "making the family proud" and pursuing a prestige career.

Western cultures tend to be child-focused. Asian cultures tend to be elder-focused. An interesting activity is to ask your Western and Asian friends who they would save if they were in a capsizing boat and could only save their children or their parents. Westerners tend to choose their children, Asians tend to choose their parents.

In my experience, this is also why many Asian parents don't enjoy a friendly relationship with their adult children the way Americans in healthy family relationships usually do -- there is a lifetime of control and vicarious living/shaming that prevents it.

Oh, I am sorry that your ILs do not have a friendly relationship with your DH. Maybe the fault lies with that one particular Asian family, because, their son did make the mistake of marrying you.

Americans have healthy family relationships? That is the funniest thing I have ever heard. Your divorce stats, deadbeat dads, single mothers, teen pregnancies and rampant sexual diseases do not support this. You do not have a culture of a stable family. People have multiple step-parents and half siblings, people have extra marital affairs all the time. Maybe Americans need the culture of shame, because their culture of shamelessness is breeding a generation of immoral underachievers.