I’ve been rejected by a group of women and it’s hurts!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone else find the moms with the biggest mean girl tendencies are the ones that never left the town they grew up in and/or work in a ms/hs setting? It’s like they never matured past high school.

I’ve found that to be the case where I currently live. I also know several girls that were mean in high school never left the town where I grew up (different part of the country) and work as ms/hs teachers or administrators. I don’t really know them as adults though.

x100000 They don't want you to question their emotionally stunted, rank and file, status quo BS - which is actually hilarious, to those who are more emotionally and socially age appropriate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone else find the moms with the biggest mean girl tendencies are the ones that never left the town they grew up in and/or work in a ms/hs setting? It’s like they never matured past high school.

I’ve found that to be the case where I currently live. I also know several girls that were mean in high school never left the town where I grew up (different part of the country) and work as ms/hs teachers or administrators. I don’t really know them as adults though.

Yes, this is part of what a pp explained about being in a lower-status pink collar job. Plenty of mean girl moms move around too though. The worst ones come from a LMC background.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep, it's all driven by insecurity.

My teens attend a super elite high school (not in DC) and the parents are one long list of monied names. We are not famous or wealthy.

The nicest moms are almost always the wealthiest and/or most successful ones. It gives me pause each time because I instinctively get intimidated but then I have to stop myself from being weird and just be myself. A few have become good friends. Then there is a whole layer of striving moms who are mean. I've learned to look at people above this layer for genuine friendship. It's wild because while our income is below all of theirs I would seem to have more in common with this group. But they look right through me.

+1 Stay away from the striver moms. 100% guaranteed to have mean girl drama. Signs are frequent mom group outings posted on social media, being on the PTA, or job is realtor, MLM, stylist, fitness instructor, or some other hobby job that they're trying to get you to pay for.

Most wealthy moms have been very kind, with a few exceptions.

+1

I also find this to be true. In some cases, if women think you have more than them, or if they think you make them look bad (real or imagined - though it is not very difficult), they don't like it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Frankly just cut ties with the whole lot and try to find others to hang out with. The fact that they worship someone who treats you like that in front of them says a lot.

+1

OP pick and choose carefully. They are telling you who they are, believe them.

+2

Focus on individual friendships with people who treat you well. Most of these “friend” groups are overrated.

I really think people need to talk back to these nasty people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep, it's all driven by insecurity.

My teens attend a super elite high school (not in DC) and the parents are one long list of monied names. We are not famous or wealthy.

The nicest moms are almost always the wealthiest and/or most successful ones. It gives me pause each time because I instinctively get intimidated but then I have to stop myself from being weird and just be myself. A few have become good friends. Then there is a whole layer of striving moms who are mean. I've learned to look at people above this layer for genuine friendship. It's wild because while our income is below all of theirs I would seem to have more in common with this group. But they look right through me.

+1 Stay away from the striver moms. 100% guaranteed to have mean girl drama. Signs are frequent mom group outings posted on social media, being on the PTA, or job is realtor, MLM, stylist, fitness instructor, or some other hobby job that they're trying to get you to pay for.

Most wealthy moms have been very kind, with a few exceptions.

+1
You are an astute observer. I've experienced inclusive pta people who genuinely make big fun changes for their school and those who were in it strictly to be in the mix for spreading gossip and excluding others. It would be a rare MLMer who isn't into friendship for the sales, they may have a few but their hustle comes first under the guise of connection.

[Anonymous]

Was thinking about this thread this morning and especially about the idea that women engage in these behaviors when they don't have other, better ways to establish "status." It's like we all have a primal need to be able to prove our worth/value to the rest of society, and insecurity is what happens when you don't feel your status is secure.

I'm mid-40s, married, with a kid. But I was thinking back on my life and there were these waves of "mean girl" behaviors at different phases that I think are directly linked to this need for status and the insecurity that comes when you don't have it:

Middle school: transitional period, with people going through puberty at different speeds. Some opportunities to get status through skill (academics, sports) but somewhat limited. People became very aware of family finances and that starts to impact status as well because kids can tell who has nice clothes, whose house is biggest, who goes on nicer vacations. Tons of mean girl behavior.

High school: actually way better! I feel like kids find their identity in high school a bit and at least at my school, there were lots of possible identities -- athletes, theater kids, the arty students, band nerds, the speech and debate people. There were just a lot of ways to find at least one thing you were good at and could usually find at least one teacher and a handful of students who appreciated you for it. So I don't remember almost any mean girl behavior in HS because I had my "things" and felt accepted in those places and didn't really feel insecure in my status.

Freshman year of college: Like middle school. Everyone is new, people are looking for places to belong, there's the whole transition out of your parents house, the pressure of declaring a major and finding friends. Not as bad as middle school, but a lot harder than high school.

Rest of College/Grad School: Again, like high school -- you settle in, find your place and your people, and I just don't remember much mean girl activity. You'd think there would be some in grad school but because the programs are specialized and you have to apply, I felt kinship/belonging in grad school pretty much immediately.

Post-school/Pre-kids: Really bad on the mean girl front. People are better at masking it at this age but there's actually a lot of MS-like behavior with groups of girlfriends. Especially if you're all single. You're at the beginning of your career so you have little to no status there, you aren't married and don't have kids, so no status there. Women at this stage can really compete heavily with each other for attention and status, there's a lot of gossip, exclusion, and nastiness, IME. The worst mean girl experiences of my life were in this phase.

Marriage/kids: It's crazy how even in the 21st century, women get SO MUCH status just from getting married and having kids. I remember feeling like a celebrity when I got married because people were so interested in me and complimentary. Like even colleagues I didn't know well or acquaintances. Same with having a kid. And social media really pumps this up because people get so into posts about engagements/weddings/honeymoons/pregnancies/babies. The most likes I've ever gotten on a Facebook post were (1) a pic from my wedding that I posted the next day, and (2) birth announcement. I think there is still mean girl stuff during this phase but it's like getting married or having kids is a ward against status competition because it's built in status. Which is actually sad when you think about it but also explains the entire genre of momfluencer -- it's leveraging the status of motherhood beyond those pregnancy and birth announcements (or just continuing to have kids to keep getting the status boost).

But then a weird thing happens in middle age, once you aren't having kids anymore, your kids are older, marriages are old hat, etc. People ramp up the mean girl behavior again. Because I think it is once again hard to feel secure in your position. You're just another middle aged mom. And if you mommy-tracked at work or became a SAHM, you won't even have that to distinguish you. And I think this is why so many women run into issues with mom groups, neighborhood moms, moms on the PTA, etc. It's that jockeying for status and attention again. Feeling insecure or invisible. Trying to find a source of status.

Sorry for the very long post, I just was kind of mulling this over this morning and realized how much the ebbs and flows of "mean girl" behavior track so closely with these periods of insecure status.

Now I'm thinking about what I might take away from this realization to help my DD navigate these phases in her own life. Or things I might do to lessen that feeling of insecurity when she's in those transitional phases when it might be harder to get secure status from school or work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A women I am friendly with tried to include me in her group. She has invited me to do things with them on several occasions.
Unfortunately the “leader” of the group made it clear that she doesn’t want me around. Each time we meet she will act like she can’t remember anything about me. She repeatedly asks me how old my kid is (my kid and her kid are in the same grade at the same school). She will invite the others to lunch in front of me etc…. Her behavior makes things very awkward for all of us.
The other women think she’s absolutely amazing. One women told me that they are “the best family”.
I’m so hurt and lonely. I feel like I’m back in 7th grade. I’m a 44yo female with two kids but no friends. How do I get past this.

I was in and then on the outskirts of a group like this. Who was in and who was out consumed me in a way that is frankly embarrassing given my age and stage in life and all the things I have on my plate. I am now squarely "out" and am sooooo much happier. It stung at first but people like that truly are not your people. Sending you a big hug, OP! It is hard but you are better off without that drama!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Was thinking about this thread this morning and especially about the idea that women engage in these behaviors when they don't have other, better ways to establish "status." It's like we all have a primal need to be able to prove our worth/value to the rest of society, and insecurity is what happens when you don't feel your status is secure.

I'm mid-40s, married, with a kid. But I was thinking back on my life and there were these waves of "mean girl" behaviors at different phases that I think are directly linked to this need for status and the insecurity that comes when you don't have it:

Middle school: transitional period, with people going through puberty at different speeds. Some opportunities to get status through skill (academics, sports) but somewhat limited. People became very aware of family finances and that starts to impact status as well because kids can tell who has nice clothes, whose house is biggest, who goes on nicer vacations. Tons of mean girl behavior.

High school: actually way better! I feel like kids find their identity in high school a bit and at least at my school, there were lots of possible identities -- athletes, theater kids, the arty students, band nerds, the speech and debate people. There were just a lot of ways to find at least one thing you were good at and could usually find at least one teacher and a handful of students who appreciated you for it. So I don't remember almost any mean girl behavior in HS because I had my "things" and felt accepted in those places and didn't really feel insecure in my status.

Freshman year of college: Like middle school. Everyone is new, people are looking for places to belong, there's the whole transition out of your parents house, the pressure of declaring a major and finding friends. Not as bad as middle school, but a lot harder than high school.

Rest of College/Grad School: Again, like high school -- you settle in, find your place and your people, and I just don't remember much mean girl activity. You'd think there would be some in grad school but because the programs are specialized and you have to apply, I felt kinship/belonging in grad school pretty much immediately.

Post-school/Pre-kids: Really bad on the mean girl front. People are better at masking it at this age but there's actually a lot of MS-like behavior with groups of girlfriends. Especially if you're all single. You're at the beginning of your career so you have little to no status there, you aren't married and don't have kids, so no status there. Women at this stage can really compete heavily with each other for attention and status, there's a lot of gossip, exclusion, and nastiness, IME. The worst mean girl experiences of my life were in this phase.

Marriage/kids: It's crazy how even in the 21st century, women get SO MUCH status just from getting married and having kids. I remember feeling like a celebrity when I got married because people were so interested in me and complimentary. Like even colleagues I didn't know well or acquaintances. Same with having a kid. And social media really pumps this up because people get so into posts about engagements/weddings/honeymoons/pregnancies/babies. The most likes I've ever gotten on a Facebook post were (1) a pic from my wedding that I posted the next day, and (2) birth announcement. I think there is still mean girl stuff during this phase but it's like getting married or having kids is a ward against status competition because it's built in status. Which is actually sad when you think about it but also explains the entire genre of momfluencer -- it's leveraging the status of motherhood beyond those pregnancy and birth announcements (or just continuing to have kids to keep getting the status boost).

But then a weird thing happens in middle age, once you aren't having kids anymore, your kids are older, marriages are old hat, etc. People ramp up the mean girl behavior again. Because I think it is once again hard to feel secure in your position. You're just another middle aged mom. And if you mommy-tracked at work or became a SAHM, you won't even have that to distinguish you. And I think this is why so many women run into issues with mom groups, neighborhood moms, moms on the PTA, etc. It's that jockeying for status and attention again. Feeling insecure or invisible. Trying to find a source of status.

Sorry for the very long post, I just was kind of mulling this over this morning and realized how much the ebbs and flows of "mean girl" behavior track so closely with these periods of insecure status.

Now I'm thinking about what I might take away from this realization to help my DD navigate these phases in her own life. Or things I might do to lessen that feeling of insecurity when she's in those transitional phases when it might be harder to get secure status from school or work.

This is so astute - I completely agree PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Frankly just cut ties with the whole lot and try to find others to hang out with. The fact that they worship someone who treats you like that in front of them says a lot.

+1

OP pick and choose carefully. They are telling you who they are, believe them.

+2

Focus on individual friendships with people who treat you well. Most of these “friend” groups are overrated.

I really think people need to talk back to these nasty people.

I feel this way about the "bystanders." Whenever you run into a woman like this who puts people down, excludes intentionally, gossips, etc., there are ALWAYS a number of women in her orbit who will, at best, ignore this behavior. At worst the emulate it and encourage it, or defend it.

Those are the people who could do the most good by calling out these behaviors, saying stuff like "Hey Becky, why do you always ask Miranda what grade her kid is in? You've met her like 12 times and your kids are in the same grade." Or "no, I don't feel comfortable talking about the Thompsons like this -- their marriage is none of my business and I would hate it if people talked about Pete and I this way."

But sadly, if you are the one being targeted, there is little use in trying to "talk back." It just feeds the machine. Your response to their nastiness will be used as justification for continued nastiness. You'll get accused of "starting drama" even if all you were doing was responding to unkindness. You just are not in a power position.

Look at OP -- this woman who is rude to her is considered part of the "best family" by others in this group. Speaking out agains the "best family" is not going to help you win friends. And if the other women in this group won't call out the woman's rudeness to OP, it's just going to continue. Which is why she needs to cut and run.

[Anonymous]

People don't speak out, because they do not want to be next on the crazy woman's target. Not saying it is right, just saying that is what happens.

Insecure women want only gossip and exclusion of others, not themselves. They do not have anything of significance in their lives, hence the insecurity and gaslighting of others.

Crazy gonna crazy. Avoid, avoid, avoid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Frankly just cut ties with the whole lot and try to find others to hang out with. The fact that they worship someone who treats you like that in front of them says a lot.

+1

OP pick and choose carefully. They are telling you who they are, believe them.

+2

Focus on individual friendships with people who treat you well. Most of these “friend” groups are overrated.

I really think people need to talk back to these nasty people.

I feel this way about the "bystanders." Whenever you run into a woman like this who puts people down, excludes intentionally, gossips, etc., there are ALWAYS a number of women in her orbit who will, at best, ignore this behavior. At worst the emulate it and encourage it, or defend it.

Those are the people who could do the most good by calling out these behaviors, saying stuff like "Hey Becky, why do you always ask Miranda what grade her kid is in? You've met her like 12 times and your kids are in the same grade." Or "no, I don't feel comfortable talking about the Thompsons like this -- their marriage is none of my business and I would hate it if people talked about Pete and I this way."

But sadly, if you are the one being targeted, there is little use in trying to "talk back." It just feeds the machine. Your response to their nastiness will be used as justification for continued nastiness. You'll get accused of "starting drama" even if all you were doing was responding to unkindness. You just are not in a power position.

Look at OP -- this woman who is rude to her is considered part of the "best family" by others in this group. Speaking out agains the "best family" is not going to help you win friends. And if the other women in this group won't call out the woman's rudeness to OP, it's just going to continue. Which is why she needs to cut and run.

+1. This. Far away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was thinking about this thread this morning and especially about the idea that women engage in these behaviors when they don't have other, better ways to establish "status." It's like we all have a primal need to be able to prove our worth/value to the rest of society, and insecurity is what happens when you don't feel your status is secure.

I'm mid-40s, married, with a kid. But I was thinking back on my life and there were these waves of "mean girl" behaviors at different phases that I think are directly linked to this need for status and the insecurity that comes when you don't have it:

Middle school: transitional period, with people going through puberty at different speeds. Some opportunities to get status through skill (academics, sports) but somewhat limited. People became very aware of family finances and that starts to impact status as well because kids can tell who has nice clothes, whose house is biggest, who goes on nicer vacations. Tons of mean girl behavior.

High school: actually way better! I feel like kids find their identity in high school a bit and at least at my school, there were lots of possible identities -- athletes, theater kids, the arty students, band nerds, the speech and debate people. There were just a lot of ways to find at least one thing you were good at and could usually find at least one teacher and a handful of students who appreciated you for it. So I don't remember almost any mean girl behavior in HS because I had my "things" and felt accepted in those places and didn't really feel insecure in my status.

Freshman year of college: Like middle school. Everyone is new, people are looking for places to belong, there's the whole transition out of your parents house, the pressure of declaring a major and finding friends. Not as bad as middle school, but a lot harder than high school.

Rest of College/Grad School: Again, like high school -- you settle in, find your place and your people, and I just don't remember much mean girl activity. You'd think there would be some in grad school but because the programs are specialized and you have to apply, I felt kinship/belonging in grad school pretty much immediately.

Post-school/Pre-kids: Really bad on the mean girl front. People are better at masking it at this age but there's actually a lot of MS-like behavior with groups of girlfriends. Especially if you're all single. You're at the beginning of your career so you have little to no status there, you aren't married and don't have kids, so no status there. Women at this stage can really compete heavily with each other for attention and status, there's a lot of gossip, exclusion, and nastiness, IME. The worst mean girl experiences of my life were in this phase.

Marriage/kids: It's crazy how even in the 21st century, women get SO MUCH status just from getting married and having kids. I remember feeling like a celebrity when I got married because people were so interested in me and complimentary. Like even colleagues I didn't know well or acquaintances. Same with having a kid. And social media really pumps this up because people get so into posts about engagements/weddings/honeymoons/pregnancies/babies. The most likes I've ever gotten on a Facebook post were (1) a pic from my wedding that I posted the next day, and (2) birth announcement. I think there is still mean girl stuff during this phase but it's like getting married or having kids is a ward against status competition because it's built in status. Which is actually sad when you think about it but also explains the entire genre of momfluencer -- it's leveraging the status of motherhood beyond those pregnancy and birth announcements (or just continuing to have kids to keep getting the status boost).

But then a weird thing happens in middle age, once you aren't having kids anymore, your kids are older, marriages are old hat, etc. People ramp up the mean girl behavior again. Because I think it is once again hard to feel secure in your position. You're just another middle aged mom. And if you mommy-tracked at work or became a SAHM, you won't even have that to distinguish you. And I think this is why so many women run into issues with mom groups, neighborhood moms, moms on the PTA, etc. It's that jockeying for status and attention again. Feeling insecure or invisible. Trying to find a source of status.

Sorry for the very long post, I just was kind of mulling this over this morning and realized how much the ebbs and flows of "mean girl" behavior track so closely with these periods of insecure status.

Now I'm thinking about what I might take away from this realization to help my DD navigate these phases in her own life. Or things I might do to lessen that feeling of insecurity when she's in those transitional phases when it might be harder to get secure status from school or work.

This is so astute - I completely agree PP.

+1. When I see grown women stuck in middle school, I find them sad, because I know better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone else find the moms with the biggest mean girl tendencies are the ones that never left the town they grew up in and/or work in a ms/hs setting? It’s like they never matured past high school.

I’ve found that to be the case where I currently live. I also know several girls that were mean in high school never left the town where I grew up (different part of the country) and work as ms/hs teachers or administrators. I don’t really know them as adults though.

x100000 They don't want you to question their emotionally stunted, rank and file, status quo BS - which is actually hilarious, to those who are more emotionally and socially age appropriate.

What’s hilarious actually is women complaining about other women being mean and then turning around and doing the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was thinking about this thread this morning and especially about the idea that women engage in these behaviors when they don't have other, better ways to establish "status." It's like we all have a primal need to be able to prove our worth/value to the rest of society, and insecurity is what happens when you don't feel your status is secure.

I'm mid-40s, married, with a kid. But I was thinking back on my life and there were these waves of "mean girl" behaviors at different phases that I think are directly linked to this need for status and the insecurity that comes when you don't have it:

Middle school: transitional period, with people going through puberty at different speeds. Some opportunities to get status through skill (academics, sports) but somewhat limited. People became very aware of family finances and that starts to impact status as well because kids can tell who has nice clothes, whose house is biggest, who goes on nicer vacations. Tons of mean girl behavior.

High school: actually way better! I feel like kids find their identity in high school a bit and at least at my school, there were lots of possible identities -- athletes, theater kids, the arty students, band nerds, the speech and debate people. There were just a lot of ways to find at least one thing you were good at and could usually find at least one teacher and a handful of students who appreciated you for it. So I don't remember almost any mean girl behavior in HS because I had my "things" and felt accepted in those places and didn't really feel insecure in my status.

Freshman year of college: Like middle school. Everyone is new, people are looking for places to belong, there's the whole transition out of your parents house, the pressure of declaring a major and finding friends. Not as bad as middle school, but a lot harder than high school.

Rest of College/Grad School: Again, like high school -- you settle in, find your place and your people, and I just don't remember much mean girl activity. You'd think there would be some in grad school but because the programs are specialized and you have to apply, I felt kinship/belonging in grad school pretty much immediately.

Post-school/Pre-kids: Really bad on the mean girl front. People are better at masking it at this age but there's actually a lot of MS-like behavior with groups of girlfriends. Especially if you're all single. You're at the beginning of your career so you have little to no status there, you aren't married and don't have kids, so no status there. Women at this stage can really compete heavily with each other for attention and status, there's a lot of gossip, exclusion, and nastiness, IME. The worst mean girl experiences of my life were in this phase.

Marriage/kids: It's crazy how even in the 21st century, women get SO MUCH status just from getting married and having kids. I remember feeling like a celebrity when I got married because people were so interested in me and complimentary. Like even colleagues I didn't know well or acquaintances. Same with having a kid. And social media really pumps this up because people get so into posts about engagements/weddings/honeymoons/pregnancies/babies. The most likes I've ever gotten on a Facebook post were (1) a pic from my wedding that I posted the next day, and (2) birth announcement. I think there is still mean girl stuff during this phase but it's like getting married or having kids is a ward against status competition because it's built in status. Which is actually sad when you think about it but also explains the entire genre of momfluencer -- it's leveraging the status of motherhood beyond those pregnancy and birth announcements (or just continuing to have kids to keep getting the status boost).

But then a weird thing happens in middle age, once you aren't having kids anymore, your kids are older, marriages are old hat, etc. People ramp up the mean girl behavior again. Because I think it is once again hard to feel secure in your position. You're just another middle aged mom. And if you mommy-tracked at work or became a SAHM, you won't even have that to distinguish you. And I think this is why so many women run into issues with mom groups, neighborhood moms, moms on the PTA, etc. It's that jockeying for status and attention again. Feeling insecure or invisible. Trying to find a source of status.

Sorry for the very long post, I just was kind of mulling this over this morning and realized how much the ebbs and flows of "mean girl" behavior track so closely with these periods of insecure status.

Now I'm thinking about what I might take away from this realization to help my DD navigate these phases in her own life. Or things I might do to lessen that feeling of insecurity when she's in those transitional phases when it might be harder to get secure status from school or work.

This is so astute - I completely agree PP.

+2 I'm actually learning a lot from this thread.

[Anonymous]

Go hang out w/ the dads since they are excluding you - that will really piss them off!