Better protocols needed to account for classified documents handled by political officials et Al …

[Anonymous]

We are talking about wildly different scenarios. There are clear signs of intent where it comes to Trump's files. In Trump's case, there were at least 15 entire bankers boxes crammed full of hundreds upon hundreds of files, thousands and thousands of pages, with a huge number of them being top secret, SCI and even Special Access Program and national security documents like nuclear weapons documents and identities and assignments of clandestine agents, which he had no business even having or keeping in the first place, and only a literal handful of people in the entire government ever even have access to SAP. Trump appears to have gone out of his way to get these and hoard them over the span of his Presidency. And then he and his attorneys repeatedly lied about having them, refused to comply, refused to return them, obstructed, fought in courts to try and retain them. There is a HUGE element of intent and knowing.

The Biden files on the other hand appear to be a tiny number of documents, total page count that you could easily tally on your fingers. And, none of them appear to have been anything even remotely at a level of SAP or national security or operational intelligence on our clandestine agents abroad as was the case with Trump. They have every appearance of being papers that were packed by staffers at the end of his VP term and a handful missed the scrutiny of staffers as they unloaded drawers and file cabinets. There is no sign of any deeper intent. And, it was Biden's own people who later caught it, and unlike Trump, Biden's folks are in full compliance and are immediately returning everything rather than lying, obstructing and fighting it.

Trying to equate the two is a complete non-starter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are talking about wildly different scenarios. There are clear signs of intent where it comes to Trump's files. In Trump's case, there were at least 15 entire bankers boxes crammed full of hundreds upon hundreds of files, thousands and thousands of pages, with a huge number of them being top secret, SCI and even Special Access Program and national security documents like nuclear weapons documents and identities and assignments of clandestine agents, which he had no business even having or keeping in the first place, and only a literal handful of people in the entire government ever even have access to SAP. Trump appears to have gone out of his way to get these and hoard them over the span of his Presidency. And then he and his attorneys repeatedly lied about having them, refused to comply, refused to return them, obstructed, fought in courts to try and retain them. There is a HUGE element of intent and knowing.

The Biden files on the other hand appear to be a tiny number of documents, total page count that you could easily tally on your fingers. And, none of them appear to have been anything even remotely at a level of SAP or national security or operational intelligence on our clandestine agents abroad as was the case with Trump. They have every appearance of being papers that were packed by staffers at the end of his VP term and a handful missed the scrutiny of staffers as they unloaded drawers and file cabinets. There is no sign of any deeper intent. And, it was Biden's own people who later caught it, and unlike Trump, Biden's folks are in full compliance and are immediately returning everything rather than lying, obstructing and fighting it.

Trying to equate the two is a complete non-starter.

How many classified documents can you store in your garage before it's a problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are talking about wildly different scenarios. There are clear signs of intent where it comes to Trump's files. In Trump's case, there were at least 15 entire bankers boxes crammed full of hundreds upon hundreds of files, thousands and thousands of pages, with a huge number of them being top secret, SCI and even Special Access Program and national security documents like nuclear weapons documents and identities and assignments of clandestine agents, which he had no business even having or keeping in the first place, and only a literal handful of people in the entire government ever even have access to SAP. Trump appears to have gone out of his way to get these and hoard them over the span of his Presidency. And then he and his attorneys repeatedly lied about having them, refused to comply, refused to return them, obstructed, fought in courts to try and retain them. There is a HUGE element of intent and knowing.

The Biden files on the other hand appear to be a tiny number of documents, total page count that you could easily tally on your fingers. And, none of them appear to have been anything even remotely at a level of SAP or national security or operational intelligence on our clandestine agents abroad as was the case with Trump. They have every appearance of being papers that were packed by staffers at the end of his VP term and a handful missed the scrutiny of staffers as they unloaded drawers and file cabinets. There is no sign of any deeper intent. And, it was Biden's own people who later caught it, and unlike Trump, Biden's folks are in full compliance and are immediately returning everything rather than lying, obstructing and fighting it.

Trying to equate the two is a complete non-starter.

How many classified documents can you store in your garage before it's a problem?

You aren't one to say. You were perfectly fine with Trump storing hundreds of the nations highest secrets in an unlocked, unmonitored hallway closet at Mar-A-Lago while known Chinese and Russian spies had access.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t more Americans understand the basics of statutes?

I’m the PP pointing out that the statute criminalizes the very act of knowing removal without authority. Most of the goons in this thread are partisan to the core and wouldn’t care if Biden traded secrets to North Korea. If they vote D, then everything Ds do is justifiable. If they vote R, then everything Rs do is reasonable. It’s troglodyte-level tribalism all day every day.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are talking about wildly different scenarios. There are clear signs of intent where it comes to Trump's files. In Trump's case, there were at least 15 entire bankers boxes crammed full of hundreds upon hundreds of files, thousands and thousands of pages, with a huge number of them being top secret, SCI and even Special Access Program and national security documents like nuclear weapons documents and identities and assignments of clandestine agents, which he had no business even having or keeping in the first place, and only a literal handful of people in the entire government ever even have access to SAP. Trump appears to have gone out of his way to get these and hoard them over the span of his Presidency. And then he and his attorneys repeatedly lied about having them, refused to comply, refused to return them, obstructed, fought in courts to try and retain them. There is a HUGE element of intent and knowing.

The Biden files on the other hand appear to be a tiny number of documents, total page count that you could easily tally on your fingers. And, none of them appear to have been anything even remotely at a level of SAP or national security or operational intelligence on our clandestine agents abroad as was the case with Trump. They have every appearance of being papers that were packed by staffers at the end of his VP term and a handful missed the scrutiny of staffers as they unloaded drawers and file cabinets. There is no sign of any deeper intent. And, it was Biden's own people who later caught it, and unlike Trump, Biden's folks are in full compliance and are immediately returning everything rather than lying, obstructing and fighting it.

Trying to equate the two is a complete non-starter.

1) how many total documents were found in all location? Tiny is not a number.
2) Why you say these documents are not at a level of SAP or national security - can you give us a link to the nature of the documents? Or do you have a personal knowledge of them?
3) Why do you comparing Biden's crime to someone else's crime and not comparing it to the law? Is this a new standard?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If staffers packed Biden's VP office up and accidentally included a few classified pages, without Biden being specifically aware of the contents of what was packed, then how is it a Biden crime?

Did the stuffers accidently delivered those documents in three different location?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are talking about wildly different scenarios. There are clear signs of intent where it comes to Trump's files. In Trump's case, there were at least 15 entire bankers boxes crammed full of hundreds upon hundreds of files, thousands and thousands of pages, with a huge number of them being top secret, SCI and even Special Access Program and national security documents like nuclear weapons documents and identities and assignments of clandestine agents, which he had no business even having or keeping in the first place, and only a literal handful of people in the entire government ever even have access to SAP. Trump appears to have gone out of his way to get these and hoard them over the span of his Presidency. And then he and his attorneys repeatedly lied about having them, refused to comply, refused to return them, obstructed, fought in courts to try and retain them. There is a HUGE element of intent and knowing.

The Biden files on the other hand appear to be a tiny number of documents, total page count that you could easily tally on your fingers. And, none of them appear to have been anything even remotely at a level of SAP or national security or operational intelligence on our clandestine agents abroad as was the case with Trump. They have every appearance of being papers that were packed by staffers at the end of his VP term and a handful missed the scrutiny of staffers as they unloaded drawers and file cabinets. There is no sign of any deeper intent. And, it was Biden's own people who later caught it, and unlike Trump, Biden's folks are in full compliance and are immediately returning everything rather than lying, obstructing and fighting it.

Trying to equate the two is a complete non-starter.

How many classified documents can you store in your garage before it's a problem?

You aren't one to say. You were perfectly fine with Trump storing hundreds of the nations highest secrets in an unlocked, unmonitored hallway closet at Mar-A-Lago while known Chinese and Russian spies had access.

On the contrary, support for Trump plummeted after that scandal. Should I take this to mean that the raid was entirely political, because Democrats are fine with elected officials lining their garage with our nation's secrets?

Either both men are out of line, or neither. I believs the former.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you need help with the law.

You see, Biden’s cooperation, disclosure, blah blah blah does NOT change the fact that the mere taking of classified documents is a CRIME.

The *taking* is the crime. Biden committed that crime. Trump committed that crime.

Now, DOJ might choose to charge one and not the other for political reasons or out of a belief one is more culpable than the other. However, that does NOT change the fact that BOTH Biden AND Trump committed crimes by taking classified documents.

Also, one doesn’t inadvertently just wander off with classified information. It isn’t kept mingled with the instruction manual for the printer and copies of the office fire safety plan. BOTH took classified documents on purpose.

You got a citation for that crime, sport? The one that requires no knowledge or intent?

Try reading the last line of my post, “sport.” The knowledge required is regarding removal — i.e., knowingly removing the documents from where they are properly stored without requisite authority. That is established here based on both presidents’ own statements. I am a lawyer, but one doesn’t need to be in order to Google statutes. Stop talking out of turn and making up provisions.

The brief accounts I've read about the packing up of Biden's office note that he was was working - doing his job as Vice President - right up until January 20. And that he may not have even been in the United States when things were packed up. So please argue the facts, counselor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are talking about wildly different scenarios. There are clear signs of intent where it comes to Trump's files. In Trump's case, there were at least 15 entire bankers boxes crammed full of hundreds upon hundreds of files, thousands and thousands of pages, with a huge number of them being top secret, SCI and even Special Access Program and national security documents like nuclear weapons documents and identities and assignments of clandestine agents, which he had no business even having or keeping in the first place, and only a literal handful of people in the entire government ever even have access to SAP. Trump appears to have gone out of his way to get these and hoard them over the span of his Presidency. And then he and his attorneys repeatedly lied about having them, refused to comply, refused to return them, obstructed, fought in courts to try and retain them. There is a HUGE element of intent and knowing.

The Biden files on the other hand appear to be a tiny number of documents, total page count that you could easily tally on your fingers. And, none of them appear to have been anything even remotely at a level of SAP or national security or operational intelligence on our clandestine agents abroad as was the case with Trump. They have every appearance of being papers that were packed by staffers at the end of his VP term and a handful missed the scrutiny of staffers as they unloaded drawers and file cabinets. There is no sign of any deeper intent. And, it was Biden's own people who later caught it, and unlike Trump, Biden's folks are in full compliance and are immediately returning everything rather than lying, obstructing and fighting it.

Trying to equate the two is a complete non-starter.

How many classified documents can you store in your garage before it's a problem?

You aren't one to say. You were perfectly fine with Trump storing hundreds of the nations highest secrets in an unlocked, unmonitored hallway closet at Mar-A-Lago while known Chinese and Russian spies had access.

On the contrary, support for Trump plummeted after that scandal. Should I take this to mean that the raid was entirely political, because Democrats are fine with elected officials lining their garage with our nation's secrets?

Either both men are out of line, or neither. I believs the former.

Thank goodness there weren’t secrets lining garage. So we can relax.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are talking about wildly different scenarios. There are clear signs of intent where it comes to Trump's files. In Trump's case, there were at least 15 entire bankers boxes crammed full of hundreds upon hundreds of files, thousands and thousands of pages, with a huge number of them being top secret, SCI and even Special Access Program and national security documents like nuclear weapons documents and identities and assignments of clandestine agents, which he had no business even having or keeping in the first place, and only a literal handful of people in the entire government ever even have access to SAP. Trump appears to have gone out of his way to get these and hoard them over the span of his Presidency. And then he and his attorneys repeatedly lied about having them, refused to comply, refused to return them, obstructed, fought in courts to try and retain them. There is a HUGE element of intent and knowing.

The Biden files on the other hand appear to be a tiny number of documents, total page count that you could easily tally on your fingers. And, none of them appear to have been anything even remotely at a level of SAP or national security or operational intelligence on our clandestine agents abroad as was the case with Trump. They have every appearance of being papers that were packed by staffers at the end of his VP term and a handful missed the scrutiny of staffers as they unloaded drawers and file cabinets. There is no sign of any deeper intent. And, it was Biden's own people who later caught it, and unlike Trump, Biden's folks are in full compliance and are immediately returning everything rather than lying, obstructing and fighting it.

Trying to equate the two is a complete non-starter.

How many classified documents can you store in your garage before it's a problem?

You aren't one to say. You were perfectly fine with Trump storing hundreds of the nations highest secrets in an unlocked, unmonitored hallway closet at Mar-A-Lago while known Chinese and Russian spies had access.

On the contrary, support for Trump plummeted after that scandal. Should I take this to mean that the raid was entirely political, because Democrats are fine with elected officials lining their garage with our nation's secrets?

Either both men are out of line, or neither. I believs the former.

Please show me where "support for Trump plummeted" after the scandal. If I'm not mistaken, he's the current frontrunner for the GOP nomination.

That said, I agree with you. Wrong is wrong, and Biden was a fool for not telling his people the minute MAL was searched "Hey, you should check my office and house for any classified documents. There are boxes in the garage that I have no idea what's inside."

I don't think the situations are the same -- Trump knew what he had and fought like hell to keep it, while Biden didn't and is doing his best to return them. But the whole thing is ridiculous -- why is no one tracking where these documents are????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are talking about wildly different scenarios. There are clear signs of intent where it comes to Trump's files. In Trump's case, there were at least 15 entire bankers boxes crammed full of hundreds upon hundreds of files, thousands and thousands of pages, with a huge number of them being top secret, SCI and even Special Access Program and national security documents like nuclear weapons documents and identities and assignments of clandestine agents, which he had no business even having or keeping in the first place, and only a literal handful of people in the entire government ever even have access to SAP. Trump appears to have gone out of his way to get these and hoard them over the span of his Presidency. And then he and his attorneys repeatedly lied about having them, refused to comply, refused to return them, obstructed, fought in courts to try and retain them. There is a HUGE element of intent and knowing.

The Biden files on the other hand appear to be a tiny number of documents, total page count that you could easily tally on your fingers. And, none of them appear to have been anything even remotely at a level of SAP or national security or operational intelligence on our clandestine agents abroad as was the case with Trump. They have every appearance of being papers that were packed by staffers at the end of his VP term and a handful missed the scrutiny of staffers as they unloaded drawers and file cabinets. There is no sign of any deeper intent. And, it was Biden's own people who later caught it, and unlike Trump, Biden's folks are in full compliance and are immediately returning everything rather than lying, obstructing and fighting it.

Trying to equate the two is a complete non-starter.

1) how many total documents were found in all location? Tiny is not a number.
2) Why you say these documents are not at a level of SAP or national security - can you give us a link to the nature of the documents? Or do you have a personal knowledge of them?
3) Why do you comparing Biden's crime to someone else's crime and not comparing it to the law? Is this a new standard?

Why are you h*ll bent on determining missteps based on a comparison to the other? This is a bureaucratic issue. Who was responsible for tracking the documents? Let’s close up the holes in the process.

[Anonymous]

Well, according to the WH, there are no visitor logs to his house in Delaware.

Does the SS not keep track of everyone who comes and goes? Wouldn't their records serve as visitor logs?

Right now, we have no idea about the documents found in Biden's home that were classified. Were they related to Ukraine? China? Things that his son has an interest in?

So many questions....

What prompted this search (at the Biden Penn center) to begin with?
Why were highly paid lawyers doing the search?
How many times have these documents been moved?
If classified docs were found in his library, it is difficult for him to claim he had no knowledge of them. Why were they there?
What were the topics of these documents?
Why was there such a lag time between the discovery of the first docs (Nov. 2) and the second set of docs (Dec. 20)
When exactly was Biden aware that he had classified docs? Before or after his 60 Minutes interview?
Why did Merrick Garland and all other parties wait until after midterms to reveal this?
Why did Karine Jean-Pierre say the search was complete when it clearly wasn't?
Why such different stories from the podium (KJP) and other parties WRT the discovery of these docs?
How many of these docs are Top Secret?
Who are all the parties who had access to these docs in the home?
Why did the U of Penn faculty write to Garland to stop the China initiative (which he did)? https://offthepress.com/university-of-pennsylvania-pressured-fbi-to-drop-china-initiative/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=university-of-pennsylvania-pressured-fbi-to-drop-china-initiative
How much $$ did the U of Penn actually get from China?
When did the relevant parties know about these docs? - Biden, Garland, Comms office, etc.

There are so many more questions..... Hopefully, some investigative reporters will work to reveal the answers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are talking about wildly different scenarios. There are clear signs of intent where it comes to Trump's files. In Trump's case, there were at least 15 entire bankers boxes crammed full of hundreds upon hundreds of files, thousands and thousands of pages, with a huge number of them being top secret, SCI and even Special Access Program and national security documents like nuclear weapons documents and identities and assignments of clandestine agents, which he had no business even having or keeping in the first place, and only a literal handful of people in the entire government ever even have access to SAP. Trump appears to have gone out of his way to get these and hoard them over the span of his Presidency. And then he and his attorneys repeatedly lied about having them, refused to comply, refused to return them, obstructed, fought in courts to try and retain them. There is a HUGE element of intent and knowing.

The Biden files on the other hand appear to be a tiny number of documents, total page count that you could easily tally on your fingers. And, none of them appear to have been anything even remotely at a level of SAP or national security or operational intelligence on our clandestine agents abroad as was the case with Trump. They have every appearance of being papers that were packed by staffers at the end of his VP term and a handful missed the scrutiny of staffers as they unloaded drawers and file cabinets. There is no sign of any deeper intent. And, it was Biden's own people who later caught it, and unlike Trump, Biden's folks are in full compliance and are immediately returning everything rather than lying, obstructing and fighting it.

Trying to equate the two is a complete non-starter.

1) how many total documents were found in all location? Tiny is not a number.
2) Why you say these documents are not at a level of SAP or national security - can you give us a link to the nature of the documents? Or do you have a personal knowledge of them?
3) Why do you comparing Biden's crime to someone else's crime and not comparing it to the law? Is this a new standard?

Why are you h*ll bent on determining missteps based on a comparison to the other? This is a bureaucratic issue. Who was responsible for tracking the documents? Let’s close up the holes in the process.

Yet more questions....

Did the National Archives not know these docs were missing? Why no urgency in getting them back? And, why isn't the National Archives responding to Congressional inquiries?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are talking about wildly different scenarios. There are clear signs of intent where it comes to Trump's files. In Trump's case, there were at least 15 entire bankers boxes crammed full of hundreds upon hundreds of files, thousands and thousands of pages, with a huge number of them being top secret, SCI and even Special Access Program and national security documents like nuclear weapons documents and identities and assignments of clandestine agents, which he had no business even having or keeping in the first place, and only a literal handful of people in the entire government ever even have access to SAP. Trump appears to have gone out of his way to get these and hoard them over the span of his Presidency. And then he and his attorneys repeatedly lied about having them, refused to comply, refused to return them, obstructed, fought in courts to try and retain them. There is a HUGE element of intent and knowing.

The Biden files on the other hand appear to be a tiny number of documents, total page count that you could easily tally on your fingers. And, none of them appear to have been anything even remotely at a level of SAP or national security or operational intelligence on our clandestine agents abroad as was the case with Trump. They have every appearance of being papers that were packed by staffers at the end of his VP term and a handful missed the scrutiny of staffers as they unloaded drawers and file cabinets. There is no sign of any deeper intent. And, it was Biden's own people who later caught it, and unlike Trump, Biden's folks are in full compliance and are immediately returning everything rather than lying, obstructing and fighting it.

Trying to equate the two is a complete non-starter.

How many classified documents can you store in your garage before it's a problem?

You aren't one to say. You were perfectly fine with Trump storing hundreds of the nations highest secrets in an unlocked, unmonitored hallway closet at Mar-A-Lago while known Chinese and Russian spies had access.

On the contrary, support for Trump plummeted after that scandal. Should I take this to mean that the raid was entirely political, because Democrats are fine with elected officials lining their garage with our nation's secrets?

Either both men are out of line, or neither. I believs the former.

Please show me where "support for Trump plummeted" after the scandal. If I'm not mistaken, he's the current frontrunner for the GOP nomination.

That said, I agree with you. Wrong is wrong, and Biden was a fool for not telling his people the minute MAL was searched "Hey, you should check my office and house for any classified documents. There are boxes in the garage that I have no idea what's inside."

I don't think the situations are the same -- Trump knew what he had and fought like hell to keep it, while Biden didn't and is doing his best to return them. But the whole thing is ridiculous -- why is no one tracking where these documents are????

DP
I get it Apparently you want Trump to be the front runner to increase Biden’s chances of winning again. You need to keep Trump mixed into this story. I supported Biden and have no interest in a Trump presidency. However, I care about getting this process fixed to prevent it from happening again. Each case should be evaluated separately not based on who did what worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, according to the WH, there are no visitor logs to his house in Delaware.

Does the SS not keep track of everyone who comes and goes? Wouldn't their records serve as visitor logs?

Right now, we have no idea about the documents found in Biden's home that were classified. Were they related to Ukraine? China? Things that his son has an interest in?

So many questions....

What prompted this search (at the Biden Penn center) to begin with?
Why were highly paid lawyers doing the search?
How many times have these documents been moved?
If classified docs were found in his library, it is difficult for him to claim he had no knowledge of them. Why were they there?
What were the topics of these documents?
Why was there such a lag time between the discovery of the first docs (Nov. 2) and the second set of docs (Dec. 20)
When exactly was Biden aware that he had classified docs? Before or after his 60 Minutes interview?
Why did Merrick Garland and all other parties wait until after midterms to reveal this?
Why did Karine Jean-Pierre say the search was complete when it clearly wasn't?
Why such different stories from the podium (KJP) and other parties WRT the discovery of these docs?
How many of these docs are Top Secret?
Who are all the parties who had access to these docs in the home?
Why did the U of Penn faculty write to Garland to stop the China initiative (which he did)? https://offthepress.com/university-of-pennsylvania-pressured-fbi-to-drop-china-initiative/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=university-of-pennsylvania-pressured-fbi-to-drop-china-initiative
How much $$ did the U of Penn actually get from China?
When did the relevant parties know about these docs? - Biden, Garland, Comms office, etc.

There are so many more questions..... Hopefully, some investigative reporters will work to reveal the answers.

Sigh.