Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

"In all settings, sometimes babies and even mothers can die. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Karen Carr has higher numbers than any other provider."

And why's that? We can have no way to determine the number of investigations/dead babies she has been involved with because she is ILLEGAL and UNREGULATED. Oh, and because MANA won't release its data.

We have NO evidence that her numbers are any good, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

Ah, but we have to remember that an OB wouldn't ever be convicted of similar felonies, even if he had done the same exact things. We have a wonderful malpractice system which completely protects them while allowing parents to get a payout. Plus, public opinion tends to support the doctor, even in cases where the baby dies. Everyone assumes "he did everything he could." The fact that Karen Carr was charged with felonies in the first place was a disgrace to our justice system, in my opinion. I agree with the poster who is wondering what the hell Boucher was thinking - I can only imagine that she was under enormous pressure by the doctors in this situation, who want nothing more than to stamp out homebirth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ensure her freedom=going on to kill babies! Applause all around!

I am pretty sure that most people experiencing PPH would rather be left with a nurse then a CNM assistant (are there even standards for that?). Hell, I would take a med student or nursing student even over my midwife injecting me with something then heading out. Nice.

If she were that dangerous why did Boucher offer plea? She isn't protecting us from the killer. Somebody please offer an answer or even a speculation as to why Boucher didn't put this "killer of babies" in jail? Oh, I got one, her case fell apart and was a bunch of garbage and she had to offer.

Ignorance is bliss- and you are certainly full of bliss at this moment arent you? Funny that you place all this responsibility of Ms Boucher to take care of Ms Carr, but you dont seem to place any responsibility on Ms Carr for what she has done- why is that?

I am not the PP you are responding to, but I will answer anyway: I don't think Carr did anything wrong, and I believe she is an excellent midwife.

How many deaths can she have to her name and still be an excellent midwife in your opinion? National average for all risk groups together is ~6.8/1000, which includes late term stillbirths and deaths of neonates up to 7 days. If she has had 10 deaths is she still an excellent midwife? 15? 20?

Don't you understand how vile you are being to speculate like this? You have absolutely no idea how many bad outcomes she has had.

I challenge anyone who is truly interested in Carr's statistics to call her directly. Unlike your OB or your hospital, Karen Carr would happily sit down with you and have an open and honest discussion about her experience as a midwife. Though I'm sure the gossip mill would rather sit here spewing their bullshit and judgement without knowing any of the facts.

It's not speculation. It's a simple question, which you seem too outraged to bother to answer. If she's a great, awesome, can do no wrong midwife, how many deaths can she have had? If she's on par with the national average, we could expect her to have had 8-9 deaths for 1200 patients (including late term stillbirths). So if she's had 10, is she, in your opinion, still a great midwife? What if she's had 20?

What I'm trying to get at, and what is flying right over your head, is that you seem inclined to believe that she's the best midwife ever no matter what her numbers say. Why don't you think about why you feel that way for a minute?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

I am sure NARM will get right on that after they help fund In Service to Women. What a joke.

The only thing that actually hurts the home birth movement, is the home birth movement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, I mean CPM assistant NOT CNM assistant -- I would take a CNM assistant for a PPH any day.

I don't know why Boucher offered her a plea deal. Perhaps the family wasn't up for testifying. Perhaps what they were going for was to have her promise to never deliver in VA again. Perhaps they just wanted her to plead guilty to felonies. Cases are plead down all the time. I think it was to Karen Carr's advantage that they even offered a plea deal. I am pretty sure KC and her lawyer were begging for one. Get her off the streets of VA and then let the other jurisdictions go after her too. Like the woman in the WashPost article, I bet they are being approached by more women who now feel more comfortable coming forward to tell their tales.

Women coming forward to tell their tales? Yes indeed: www.inservicetowomen.org.

As has been mentioned many, many times here, birth is normal and low risk until it's not. If she's delivered 1200 babies, and 100 have had problems, there are still 1100 deliveries that were perfect, and 1100 families who think she can do no wrong, when they were in fact just lucky. Does that negate the higher-than-justified numbers of damaged babies and problems she's run into because of her "trust birth" philosophy? I'm not overly concerned about the births she's attended that have gone well. I'm much more concerned about those that haven't, such as those that are referred to in the Washington Post article.

Where on earth are you getting your information? You are spreading filthy lies that have no basis in reality. Every single provider - doctors and midwives alike - have encountered difficult birth situations. In all settings, sometimes babies and even mothers can die. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Karen Carr has higher numbers than any other provider. This is one highly publicized case. The other cases mentioned in the WaPo article do not provide any meaningly information by which we can make any judgements at all about the midwife.

Whoa there on the "filthy lies" bit. That In Service to Women site was mentioned as proof of what a great midwife and all around person Karen is. Is it really that hard to understand that any midwife is going to have lots of success stories? I could call myself a midwife starting today and have many more great, successful births than disasters. It's really not hard to see where she would have plenty of people who think she's the greatest, when her numbers could still be atrocious. Use your head.

No, I'm not going to hold up on the "filthy lies" bit. You claim that she has a higher-than-justified number of damaged babies. That is completely, 100%, unsubstantiated. You use YOUR head.

No, I did NOT claim damaged babies. I claimed that using that In Service to Women site (which, by the way, is not allowing all comments to stand- what on earth are they hiding??) as proof that Karen is a great, safe midwife is inane, and gave the example as to why. Awfully defensive, aren't we?

Maybe it was a different poster -- I was referring to the poster who said "Does that negate the higher-than-justified numbers of damaged babies and problems she's run into because of her "trust birth" philosophy?".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

Ah, but we have to remember that an OB wouldn't ever be convicted of similar felonies, even if he had done the same exact things. We have a wonderful malpractice system which completely protects them while allowing parents to get a payout. Plus, public opinion tends to support the doctor, even in cases where the baby dies. Everyone assumes "he did everything he could." The fact that Karen Carr was charged with felonies in the first place was a disgrace to our justice system, in my opinion. I agree with the poster who is wondering what the hell Boucher was thinking - I can only imagine that she was under enormous pressure by the doctors in this situation, who want nothing more than to stamp out homebirth.

Do you even know any OBs? Every single one I know has had a lawsuit, and yes, they had all done "all they could." Because, you know, they were in hospitals with teams of healthcare professionals and equipment and years of knowledge about how to handle emergencies. And yet, the parents still got money. Don't tell me about how public opinion (in juries anyway) tends to support doctors. It tends to support the parents of damaged and dead children.

And really, you think that all the local OBs banded together and got this woman indicted? They're too busy delivering babies. This is quite the conspiracy theory, though. Please continue.

[Anonymous]

"I challenge anyone who is truly interested in Carr's statistics to call her directly. Unlike your OB or your hospital, Karen Carr would happily sit down with you and have an open and honest discussion about her experience as a midwife."

Open and honest like the way she asked the PPH mother in the WaPo article to lie for her? And lie in a way that could have serious implications for her health?

Open and honest...she claims she lied in court under oath when she confirmed the felony charges against her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

Ah, but we have to remember that an OB wouldn't ever be convicted of similar felonies, even if he had done the same exact things. We have a wonderful malpractice system which completely protects them while allowing parents to get a payout. Plus, public opinion tends to support the doctor, even in cases where the baby dies. Everyone assumes "he did everything he could." The fact that Karen Carr was charged with felonies in the first place was a disgrace to our justice system, in my opinion. I agree with the poster who is wondering what the hell Boucher was thinking - I can only imagine that she was under enormous pressure by the doctors in this situation, who want nothing more than to stamp out homebirth.

Do you even know any OBs? Every single one I know has had a lawsuit, and yes, they had all done "all they could." Because, you know, they were in hospitals with teams of healthcare professionals and equipment and years of knowledge about how to handle emergencies. And yet, the parents still got money. Don't tell me about how public opinion (in juries anyway) tends to support doctors. It tends to support the parents of damaged and dead children.

And really, you think that all the local OBs banded together and got this woman indicted? They're too busy delivering babies. This is quite the conspiracy theory, though. Please continue.

This was my point exactly. Yes, they get lawsuits and there is a system in place to handle this. The doctor gets sued, the parents get money, and life goes on. In this case, the provider was charged with manslaughter, which is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. In case you didn't know about the fine points of this case, it was indeed the doctors who banded together and pushed this case forward; the parents didn't have any part in it. I think it is a very screwed up system when doctors and lawyers are intervening to make decisions about how a family and their midwife choose to practice. What Carr did was not in any way outside the scope of her certification. In fact, at this time there are other CPMs (and CNMs, for that matter) in the state of VA delivering breech babies at home - though probably with even less experience than Carr had.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

Ah, but we have to remember that an OB wouldn't ever be convicted of similar felonies, even if he had done the same exact things. We have a wonderful malpractice system which completely protects them while allowing parents to get a payout. Plus, public opinion tends to support the doctor, even in cases where the baby dies. Everyone assumes "he did everything he could." The fact that Karen Carr was charged with felonies in the first place was a disgrace to our justice system, in my opinion. I agree with the poster who is wondering what the hell Boucher was thinking - I can only imagine that she was under enormous pressure by the doctors in this situation, who want nothing more than to stamp out homebirth.

Do you even know any OBs? Every single one I know has had a lawsuit, and yes, they had all done "all they could." Because, you know, they were in hospitals with teams of healthcare professionals and equipment and years of knowledge about how to handle emergencies. And yet, the parents still got money. Don't tell me about how public opinion (in juries anyway) tends to support doctors. It tends to support the parents of damaged and dead children.

And really, you think that all the local OBs banded together and got this woman indicted? They're too busy delivering babies. This is quite the conspiracy theory, though. Please continue.

No, that is the job of the hospital attorneys. They were on the job here. Nobody wants to be holding a dead baby and have to explain how they did or did not contribute to its death. Just an FYI - It WAS an MD who filed the report on the Alexandria baby to the Dept of Health Pros and Regs. Not too busy to do that I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

Ah, but we have to remember that an OB wouldn't ever be convicted of similar felonies, even if he had done the same exact things. We have a wonderful malpractice system which completely protects them while allowing parents to get a payout. Plus, public opinion tends to support the doctor, even in cases where the baby dies. Everyone assumes "he did everything he could." The fact that Karen Carr was charged with felonies in the first place was a disgrace to our justice system, in my opinion. I agree with the poster who is wondering what the hell Boucher was thinking - I can only imagine that she was under enormous pressure by the doctors in this situation, who want nothing more than to stamp out homebirth.

Do you even know any OBs? Every single one I know has had a lawsuit, and yes, they had all done "all they could." Because, you know, they were in hospitals with teams of healthcare professionals and equipment and years of knowledge about how to handle emergencies. And yet, the parents still got money. Don't tell me about how public opinion (in juries anyway) tends to support doctors. It tends to support the parents of damaged and dead children.

And really, you think that all the local OBs banded together and got this woman indicted? They're too busy delivering babies. This is quite the conspiracy theory, though. Please continue.

No, that is the job of the hospital attorneys. They were on the job here. Nobody wants to be holding a dead baby and have to explain how they did or did not contribute to its death. Just an FYI - It WAS an MD who filed the report on the Alexandria baby to the Dept of Health Pros and Regs. Not too busy to do that I guess.

Hmm, there's a big difference between OBs banding together to pursue legal action, and an OB reporting that a baby who came in had been delivered by someone who is incompetent. If I spent 8 years of my life becoming an OB, you'd better believe that I would file reports for gross negligence during homebirths as well. No one else seems to care about the baby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

Ah, but we have to remember that an OB wouldn't ever be convicted of similar felonies, even if he had done the same exact things. We have a wonderful malpractice system which completely protects them while allowing parents to get a payout. Plus, public opinion tends to support the doctor, even in cases where the baby dies. Everyone assumes "he did everything he could." The fact that Karen Carr was charged with felonies in the first place was a disgrace to our justice system, in my opinion. I agree with the poster who is wondering what the hell Boucher was thinking - I can only imagine that she was under enormous pressure by the doctors in this situation, who want nothing more than to stamp out homebirth.

Do you even know any OBs? Every single one I know has had a lawsuit, and yes, they had all done "all they could." Because, you know, they were in hospitals with teams of healthcare professionals and equipment and years of knowledge about how to handle emergencies. And yet, the parents still got money. Don't tell me about how public opinion (in juries anyway) tends to support doctors. It tends to support the parents of damaged and dead children.

And really, you think that all the local OBs banded together and got this woman indicted? They're too busy delivering babies. This is quite the conspiracy theory, though. Please continue.

This was my point exactly. Yes, they get lawsuits and there is a system in place to handle this. The doctor gets sued, the parents get money, and life goes on. In this case, the provider was charged with manslaughter, which is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. In case you didn't know about the fine points of this case, it was indeed the doctors who banded together and pushed this case forward; the parents didn't have any part in it. I think it is a very screwed up system when doctors and lawyers are intervening to make decisions about how a family and their midwife choose to practice. What Carr did was not in any way outside the scope of her certification. In fact, at this time there are other CPMs (and CNMs, for that matter) in the state of VA delivering breech babies at home - though probably with even less experience than Carr had.

Yes, she was charged with manslaughter because she HAD NO LICENSE! If an MD were doing dangerous procedures in someone's living room with no license, and someone died, she too would be brought up on charges of manslaughter.

[Anonymous]

So you are arguing that if a baby or child arrives dead at a hospital, there should NOT be an investigation?

Another question - are the PPs who think this was so outrageous suggesting that we do away with all licensing systems? Would you be fine seeing a doctor who is not licensed? A lawyer? An electrician? A psychologist or social worker?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

Ah, but we have to remember that an OB wouldn't ever be convicted of similar felonies, even if he had done the same exact things. We have a wonderful malpractice system which completely protects them while allowing parents to get a payout. Plus, public opinion tends to support the doctor, even in cases where the baby dies. Everyone assumes "he did everything he could." The fact that Karen Carr was charged with felonies in the first place was a disgrace to our justice system, in my opinion. I agree with the poster who is wondering what the hell Boucher was thinking - I can only imagine that she was under enormous pressure by the doctors in this situation, who want nothing more than to stamp out homebirth.

Do you even know any OBs? Every single one I know has had a lawsuit, and yes, they had all done "all they could." Because, you know, they were in hospitals with teams of healthcare professionals and equipment and years of knowledge about how to handle emergencies. And yet, the parents still got money. Don't tell me about how public opinion (in juries anyway) tends to support doctors. It tends to support the parents of damaged and dead children.

And really, you think that all the local OBs banded together and got this woman indicted? They're too busy delivering babies. This is quite the conspiracy theory, though. Please continue.

No, that is the job of the hospital attorneys. They were on the job here. Nobody wants to be holding a dead baby and have to explain how they did or did not contribute to its death. Just an FYI - It WAS an MD who filed the report on the Alexandria baby to the Dept of Health Pros and Regs. Not too busy to do that I guess.

Hmm, there's a big difference between OBs banding together to pursue legal action, and an OB reporting that a baby who came in had been delivered by someone who is incompetent. If I spent 8 years of my life becoming an OB, you'd better believe that I would file reports for gross negligence during homebirths as well. No one else seems to care about the baby.

More lies and gossip-milling. What evidence do you have that Carr is incompetent? What evidence do you have that she was grossly negligent? You have none.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

Ah, but we have to remember that an OB wouldn't ever be convicted of similar felonies, even if he had done the same exact things. We have a wonderful malpractice system which completely protects them while allowing parents to get a payout. Plus, public opinion tends to support the doctor, even in cases where the baby dies. Everyone assumes "he did everything he could." The fact that Karen Carr was charged with felonies in the first place was a disgrace to our justice system, in my opinion. I agree with the poster who is wondering what the hell Boucher was thinking - I can only imagine that she was under enormous pressure by the doctors in this situation, who want nothing more than to stamp out homebirth.

Do you even know any OBs? Every single one I know has had a lawsuit, and yes, they had all done "all they could." Because, you know, they were in hospitals with teams of healthcare professionals and equipment and years of knowledge about how to handle emergencies. And yet, the parents still got money. Don't tell me about how public opinion (in juries anyway) tends to support doctors. It tends to support the parents of damaged and dead children.

And really, you think that all the local OBs banded together and got this woman indicted? They're too busy delivering babies. This is quite the conspiracy theory, though. Please continue.

This was my point exactly. Yes, they get lawsuits and there is a system in place to handle this. The doctor gets sued, the parents get money, and life goes on. In this case, the provider was charged with manslaughter, which is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. In case you didn't know about the fine points of this case, it was indeed the doctors who banded together and pushed this case forward; the parents didn't have any part in it. I think it is a very screwed up system when doctors and lawyers are intervening to make decisions about how a family and their midwife choose to practice. What Carr did was not in any way outside the scope of her certification. In fact, at this time there are other CPMs (and CNMs, for that matter) in the state of VA delivering breech babies at home - though probably with even less experience than Carr had.

Yes, she was charged with manslaughter because she HAD NO LICENSE! If an MD were doing dangerous procedures in someone's living room with no license, and someone died, she too would be brought up on charges of manslaughter.

I believe we have a fundamental disagreement about childbirth. I do not believe that overseeing a birth equals "doing dangerous procedures". Even breech birth does not fall into that category in my opinion. And, I believe that a living room is indeed an appropriate place for a birth to take place.

[Anonymous]

Or maybe Karen could come on here and post her stats herself, rather than having her sock puppet make unsubstantiated claims on her behalf.