Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Or maybe Karen could come on here and post her stats herself, rather than having her sock puppet make unsubstantiated claims on her behalf.

She doesn't have time. She's too busy working for women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

Ah, but we have to remember that an OB wouldn't ever be convicted of similar felonies, even if he had done the same exact things. We have a wonderful malpractice system which completely protects them while allowing parents to get a payout. Plus, public opinion tends to support the doctor, even in cases where the baby dies. Everyone assumes "he did everything he could." The fact that Karen Carr was charged with felonies in the first place was a disgrace to our justice system, in my opinion. I agree with the poster who is wondering what the hell Boucher was thinking - I can only imagine that she was under enormous pressure by the doctors in this situation, who want nothing more than to stamp out homebirth.

Do you even know any OBs? Every single one I know has had a lawsuit, and yes, they had all done "all they could." Because, you know, they were in hospitals with teams of healthcare professionals and equipment and years of knowledge about how to handle emergencies. And yet, the parents still got money. Don't tell me about how public opinion (in juries anyway) tends to support doctors. It tends to support the parents of damaged and dead children.

And really, you think that all the local OBs banded together and got this woman indicted? They're too busy delivering babies. This is quite the conspiracy theory, though. Please continue.

This was my point exactly. Yes, they get lawsuits and there is a system in place to handle this. The doctor gets sued, the parents get money, and life goes on. In this case, the provider was charged with manslaughter, which is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. In case you didn't know about the fine points of this case, it was indeed the doctors who banded together and pushed this case forward; the parents didn't have any part in it. I think it is a very screwed up system when doctors and lawyers are intervening to make decisions about how a family and their midwife choose to practice. What Carr did was not in any way outside the scope of her certification. In fact, at this time there are other CPMs (and CNMs, for that matter) in the state of VA delivering breech babies at home - though probably with even less experience than Carr had.

Yes, she was charged with manslaughter because she HAD NO LICENSE! If an MD were doing dangerous procedures in someone's living room with no license, and someone died, she too would be brought up on charges of manslaughter.

I believe we have a fundamental disagreement about childbirth. I do not believe that overseeing a birth equals "doing dangerous procedures". Even breech birth does not fall into that category in my opinion. And, I believe that a living room is indeed an appropriate place for a birth to take place.

Well then, we'll just have to disagree. I think that anything that kills 7/1000 people is dangerous, but you don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

Ah, but we have to remember that an OB wouldn't ever be convicted of similar felonies, even if he had done the same exact things. We have a wonderful malpractice system which completely protects them while allowing parents to get a payout. Plus, public opinion tends to support the doctor, even in cases where the baby dies. Everyone assumes "he did everything he could." The fact that Karen Carr was charged with felonies in the first place was a disgrace to our justice system, in my opinion. I agree with the poster who is wondering what the hell Boucher was thinking - I can only imagine that she was under enormous pressure by the doctors in this situation, who want nothing more than to stamp out homebirth.

Do you even know any OBs? Every single one I know has had a lawsuit, and yes, they had all done "all they could." Because, you know, they were in hospitals with teams of healthcare professionals and equipment and years of knowledge about how to handle emergencies. And yet, the parents still got money. Don't tell me about how public opinion (in juries anyway) tends to support doctors. It tends to support the parents of damaged and dead children.

And really, you think that all the local OBs banded together and got this woman indicted? They're too busy delivering babies. This is quite the conspiracy theory, though. Please continue.

No, that is the job of the hospital attorneys. They were on the job here. Nobody wants to be holding a dead baby and have to explain how they did or did not contribute to its death. Just an FYI - It WAS an MD who filed the report on the Alexandria baby to the Dept of Health Pros and Regs. Not too busy to do that I guess.

Hmm, there's a big difference between OBs banding together to pursue legal action, and an OB reporting that a baby who came in had been delivered by someone who is incompetent. If I spent 8 years of my life becoming an OB, you'd better believe that I would file reports for gross negligence during homebirths as well. No one else seems to care about the baby.

More lies and gossip-milling. What evidence do you have that Carr is incompetent? What evidence do you have that she was grossly negligent? You have none.

Her plea agreement. She admitted to be negligent in her plea agreement:Carr, by accepting the plea, acknowledged that she was not licensed to work as a midwife at the time and that the baby died as a result of her negligence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

Ah, but we have to remember that an OB wouldn't ever be convicted of similar felonies, even if he had done the same exact things. We have a wonderful malpractice system which completely protects them while allowing parents to get a payout. Plus, public opinion tends to support the doctor, even in cases where the baby dies. Everyone assumes "he did everything he could." The fact that Karen Carr was charged with felonies in the first place was a disgrace to our justice system, in my opinion. I agree with the poster who is wondering what the hell Boucher was thinking - I can only imagine that she was under enormous pressure by the doctors in this situation, who want nothing more than to stamp out homebirth.

Do you even know any OBs? Every single one I know has had a lawsuit, and yes, they had all done "all they could." Because, you know, they were in hospitals with teams of healthcare professionals and equipment and years of knowledge about how to handle emergencies. And yet, the parents still got money. Don't tell me about how public opinion (in juries anyway) tends to support doctors. It tends to support the parents of damaged and dead children.

And really, you think that all the local OBs banded together and got this woman indicted? They're too busy delivering babies. This is quite the conspiracy theory, though. Please continue.

No, that is the job of the hospital attorneys. They were on the job here. Nobody wants to be holding a dead baby and have to explain how they did or did not contribute to its death. Just an FYI - It WAS an MD who filed the report on the Alexandria baby to the Dept of Health Pros and Regs. Not too busy to do that I guess.

Hmm, there's a big difference between OBs banding together to pursue legal action, and an OB reporting that a baby who came in had been delivered by someone who is incompetent. If I spent 8 years of my life becoming an OB, you'd better believe that I would file reports for gross negligence during homebirths as well. No one else seems to care about the baby.

More lies and gossip-milling. What evidence do you have that Carr is incompetent? What evidence do you have that she was grossly negligent? You have none.

Her plea agreement. She admitted to be negligent in her plea agreement:Carr, by accepting the plea, acknowledged that she was not licensed to work as a midwife at the time and that the baby died as a result of her negligence.

She agreed so she wouldn't go to jail. It doesn't mean jack about guilt. Go back and read some of the posts on this topic. Again - nobody has offered any good reason why Boucher, the assistant DA, offered the plea. If she was so damned guilty then why bargain? Get the killer of the streets or sit down. Why parade this around and then offer the plea? Help me out here. I truly cannot get this. If a reporter is poking around in here - go ask the DA some better questions.

[Anonymous]

"off the streets"

[Anonymous]

Ha! So by pleading guilty she actually didn't admit she was guilty? Is that what you think? Sorry, the law is black and white. Guilty or not-guilty and she plead guilty. She may have wanted to avoid jail time but that doesn't make her less guilty. If she wasn't guilty SHE would have wanted it to go to trial to prove her innocence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to imagine that any OB who was convicted of similar felonies would have all their licenses to practice medicine removed.

Yet Karen Carr evidently has no difficulty maintaining her CPM "credential". Has NARM said a word to indicate that she is under investigation due to admitting that she was guilty of child endangerment?

Ah, but we have to remember that an OB wouldn't ever be convicted of similar felonies, even if he had done the same exact things. We have a wonderful malpractice system which completely protects them while allowing parents to get a payout. Plus, public opinion tends to support the doctor, even in cases where the baby dies. Everyone assumes "he did everything he could." The fact that Karen Carr was charged with felonies in the first place was a disgrace to our justice system, in my opinion. I agree with the poster who is wondering what the hell Boucher was thinking - I can only imagine that she was under enormous pressure by the doctors in this situation, who want nothing more than to stamp out homebirth.

Do you even know any OBs? Every single one I know has had a lawsuit, and yes, they had all done "all they could." Because, you know, they were in hospitals with teams of healthcare professionals and equipment and years of knowledge about how to handle emergencies. And yet, the parents still got money. Don't tell me about how public opinion (in juries anyway) tends to support doctors. It tends to support the parents of damaged and dead children.

And really, you think that all the local OBs banded together and got this woman indicted? They're too busy delivering babies. This is quite the conspiracy theory, though. Please continue.

No, that is the job of the hospital attorneys. They were on the job here. Nobody wants to be holding a dead baby and have to explain how they did or did not contribute to its death. Just an FYI - It WAS an MD who filed the report on the Alexandria baby to the Dept of Health Pros and Regs. Not too busy to do that I guess.

Hmm, there's a big difference between OBs banding together to pursue legal action, and an OB reporting that a baby who came in had been delivered by someone who is incompetent. If I spent 8 years of my life becoming an OB, you'd better believe that I would file reports for gross negligence during homebirths as well. No one else seems to care about the baby.

More lies and gossip-milling. What evidence do you have that Carr is incompetent? What evidence do you have that she was grossly negligent? You have none.

Her plea agreement. She admitted to be negligent in her plea agreement:Carr, by accepting the plea, acknowledged that she was not licensed to work as a midwife at the time and that the baby died as a result of her negligence.

She agreed so she wouldn't go to jail. It doesn't mean jack about guilt. Go back and read some of the posts on this topic. Again - nobody has offered any good reason why Boucher, the assistant DA, offered the plea. If she was so damned guilty then why bargain? Get the killer of the streets or sit down. Why parade this around and then offer the plea? Help me out here. I truly cannot get this. If a reporter is poking around in here - go ask the DA some better questions.

Well, the majority of criminal cases in the US are settled by plea bargain. It saves time and money, since jury trials are expensive. And you say it doesn't mean jack about guilt. Is that a fact, or your personal opinion of this case? Because she was doing something illegal when someone died, and that's a textbook definition of involuntary manslaughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ha! So by pleading guilty she actually didn't admit she was guilty? Is that what you think? Sorry, the law is black and white. Guilty or not-guilty and she plead guilty. She may have wanted to avoid jail time but that doesn't make her less guilty. If she wasn't guilty SHE would have wanted it to go to trial to prove her innocence.

I think that is extraordinarily naive.

[Anonymous]

So she offered a plea to save money? Why didn't she just issue a cease and desist, a low-cost option to get criminal behavior out of your state? I really want to know?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha! So by pleading guilty she actually didn't admit she was guilty? Is that what you think? Sorry, the law is black and white. Guilty or not-guilty and she plead guilty. She may have wanted to avoid jail time but that doesn't make her less guilty. If she wasn't guilty SHE would have wanted it to go to trial to prove her innocence.

I think that is extraordinarily naive.

On par with post DCUM posters

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ha! So by pleading guilty she actually didn't admit she was guilty? Is that what you think? Sorry, the law is black and white. Guilty or not-guilty and she plead guilty. She may have wanted to avoid jail time but that doesn't make her less guilty. If she wasn't guilty SHE would have wanted it to go to trial to prove her innocence.

I think that is extraordinarily naive.

Why?

[Anonymous]

The WaPo article quotes Karen Carr as saying she didn't want to be licensed and prefers to work underground. Any pregnant woman who opted to have her deliver their baby is crazy -- it's akin to having dental work done in the back of a van or a cosmetic procedure done in the back of a hair salon. This woman was administering drugs without a license (she's quoted related to administering pitocin)??? If I gave drugs to someone I would be arrested and likely do some jail time. Why on earth are people defending Carr? And why on earth are women opting for this sort of delivery? It's one thing to have a certified medical type deliver at home (I suppose --- although I still think that option isn't optimal), it's quite another to have some sort of hippie throwback who brags about taking risks and working underground attend your birth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The WaPo article quotes Karen Carr as saying she didn't want to be licensed and prefers to work underground. Any pregnant woman who opted to have her deliver their baby is crazy -- it's akin to having dental work done in the back of a van or a cosmetic procedure done in the back of a hair salon. This woman was administering drugs without a license (she's quoted related to administering pitocin)??? If I gave drugs to someone I would be arrested and likely do some jail time. Why on earth are people defending Carr? And why on earth are women opting for this sort of delivery? It's one thing to have a certified medical type deliver at home (I suppose --- although I still think that option isn't optimal), it's quite another to have some sort of hippie throwback who brags about taking risks and working underground attend your birth.

It sounds like you really don't want to know why women chose KC. I feel you just want to judge and blame without a sincere desire to learn. It is this type of attitude, as a pp "OB" said, that reflects the poorest of outcomes for understanding and growth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The WaPo article quotes Karen Carr as saying she didn't want to be licensed and prefers to work underground. Any pregnant woman who opted to have her deliver their baby is crazy -- it's akin to having dental work done in the back of a van or a cosmetic procedure done in the back of a hair salon. This woman was administering drugs without a license (she's quoted related to administering pitocin)??? If I gave drugs to someone I would be arrested and likely do some jail time. Why on earth are people defending Carr? And why on earth are women opting for this sort of delivery? It's one thing to have a certified medical type deliver at home (I suppose --- although I still think that option isn't optimal), it's quite another to have some sort of hippie throwback who brags about taking risks and working underground attend your birth.

But she claims she's working "for women," so that makes it ok. All those other examples are people taking advantage of other people, but Karen Carr is working on principle. Or something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The WaPo article quotes Karen Carr as saying she didn't want to be licensed and prefers to work underground. Any pregnant woman who opted to have her deliver their baby is crazy -- it's akin to having dental work done in the back of a van or a cosmetic procedure done in the back of a hair salon. This woman was administering drugs without a license (she's quoted related to administering pitocin)??? If I gave drugs to someone I would be arrested and likely do some jail time. Why on earth are people defending Carr? And why on earth are women opting for this sort of delivery? It's one thing to have a certified medical type deliver at home (I suppose --- although I still think that option isn't optimal), it's quite another to have some sort of hippie throwback who brags about taking risks and working underground attend your birth.

It sounds like you really don't want to know why women chose KC. I feel you just want to judge and blame without a sincere desire to learn. It is this type of attitude, as a pp "OB" said, that reflects the poorest of outcomes for understanding and growth.

I think I have a pretty good handle on why people choose Karen Carr. It's like I said earlier- birth is normal and low risk until it's not. She can do exactly what you like, go at whatever pace you feel best at, make you feel "heard," and all those friendly things that CPMs do. What she can't do, apparently, is tell the difference between low and high risk and use that difference to have standards of practice, recognize respiratory distress in a timely manner (per the most recent Washington Post article), and in general exercise good judgment.

Some women look at the odds and say, well, my baby will probably be fine, let's go with the nice lady. Others look at the odds and say, I want to be around the people with the most training. I think that the real crime here is that CPMs can do whatever they want with whomever they want with no oversight or regulation, and nobody seems to care.