Another gunman, another elementary school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
In a normal country an open door would not cost 21 humans their lives within minutes.

In a deranged society where guns matter more than people I guess it could though.

+100

It's stupid to blame the open door for this.

Did you know in other countries they don't lock doors? And they also don't have active shooter drills.

My child was raised in America and I was mortified that starting the age of 5 she had to practice to hide from people to shoot her. How is this normalized in our society?
She grew up with a notion that she may be shot at any minute. How is this normal?!!

What? Without an open door it would have been more difficult to obtain entry to the school. In other words, obtaining entry would have taken time he didn’t really have after crashing the truck a losing the element of surprise. Not impossible, but still more difficult and potentially allowing the school to take some lockdown measures and exposing him to discovery by law enforcement. Police were on scene while he remained in the parking lot and a locked entrances would have been ideal for taking him down. He had no training or discipline and was in panic mode, shooting rounds randomly at those who witnessed the crash and the school. I have no doubt the teacher will suffer guilt for years to come but there are reasons for safety protocols. And I’m sorry their need to get a phone trumped training snd common sense, particularly if the school had been tied to a conspiracy to commit murder in recent years.

“Element of surprise”?!

Jesus Christ, I can’t believe it is now completely normalized that we all need to be hyper vigilant to armed shooters at all times so they don’t get “the element of surprise”. WTF has happened to this country. No other developed country thinks this is normal.

The problem is guns.

My kids attended elementary school less than a mile from the US Capitol. We lived through Sandy Hook. We lived through a mass shooting nearby at the navy Yard. We lived through the dozens of other school shootings. The school is locked down periodically due to a suspicious package or an incident at the Capitol Complex, which happen with greater frequency than you might otherwise expect. Sometimes you need to think about difficult things. And trust that police have the training to protect your children should the need arise.

I do not understand the point that you are making PP...are you saying that since you have to deal with the threat of an active shooter routinely, its okay? That its just a normal part of life?

And no, the police rarely give me comfort on anything, given that I'm not white. Glad you take comfort in their expertise to protect your children from weapons of destruction.

My .02. I posted earlier in the thread about my child who was at Edmund Burke School on 4/22. Everyone of those kids have been participating in active shooter drills since at least K. They almost instinctively knew what to do when the first shots began to hit the school. It’s a normal part of their life, to use your words. It saved some of their lives. Sounds like the 4th graders in Uvalde also knew exactly what to do, but with a far, far more horrific result due to a confluence of bad decisionmaking. Guns and bad actors who use them are not going to go away. Vigilance can be a positive. Just like explaining “stranger danger” to little kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a former small Western county attorney, I am unsurprised by the failures of the local cops in this situation. This is aside from whether our cops should ever have to face perpetrators armed with weapons of war. This incident highlights a root reason why we have problems in policing in this country - so many of our law enforcement are woefully undertrained and untested. Other developed countries require years of education before putting law enforcement officers on the street, but in many American jurisdictions, they have as little as a 40 hour training and in some cases they are allowed 12 months of working before having to complete that training. 40 HOURS. The stylist who colors your hair has much more training.

We need police reform in America. We need educated well trained cops.

I don't want to draw attention away from the gun control issue -- which the primary issue and the alpha-omega of this problem. But I agree that training and recruitment of law enforcement is also a huge problem. People keep saying to put more armed security at doors -- who do they think is going to do that? The police departments can't get people into their academy classes. Instead of trying to weed out the officers who are substandard, they are begging for anyone to stay, because they do not have enough people to cover shifts. Officers that are there are being forced to work OT they don't want, and are retiring as soon as they can, or even leaving valuable pensions on the table because they can't stand it anymore. The big city departments pay better and offer better benefits, so they will generally attract better recruits -- but even they can't find people, so I can't imagine the small town departments are doing better. The lack of gun control is one big factor -- who wants to do this job knowing that any depressed kid can be armed like an guerilla army?
I also continue to have questions about chain of command decisions here, and whether the 911 operators were feeding hte police the information about continued incoming calls from children who were still alive in the classrooms.

I don't know - maybe we can pay people more in this profession? Just.as with teachers, offer more money. Then you will have more candidates, and you can also weed out the lazy and incompetent and ignorant. Require years of rigorous training. Right now, we get the bottom of the barrel in both these professions because we don't value them.

Although, agreed - even the best trained PO is not going to stand a chance against an AR 15.

Why wouldn't a trained PO with equivalent firepower not stand a chance?

You want guards with AR 15s in schools? Yikes.

You want dead kids instead? Gross.

I don’t. Which is why I support gun reform. Not turning our country into Sudan.

Rainbow unicorns that fart candy would be nice too.

Except literally every other developed country put laws into place and they have very few mass shootings. It's not a unicorn, it's very possible.

[Anonymous]

I’m horrified that cops have shot so quickly at elderly people, unarmed people, at traffic stops, at children like Tamir Rice with toy guns but they wouldn’t aim and shoot in this situation when there was over 40 minutes of time to stop the madness. Not every cop would’ve gotten shot, they’re trained to aim where it kills, not a single cop on those school grounds was able to take down the target?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a former small Western county attorney, I am unsurprised by the failures of the local cops in this situation. This is aside from whether our cops should ever have to face perpetrators armed with weapons of war. This incident highlights a root reason why we have problems in policing in this country - so many of our law enforcement are woefully undertrained and untested. Other developed countries require years of education before putting law enforcement officers on the street, but in many American jurisdictions, they have as little as a 40 hour training and in some cases they are allowed 12 months of working before having to complete that training. 40 HOURS. The stylist who colors your hair has much more training.

We need police reform in America. We need educated well trained cops.

I don't want to draw attention away from the gun control issue -- which the primary issue and the alpha-omega of this problem. But I agree that training and recruitment of law enforcement is also a huge problem. People keep saying to put more armed security at doors -- who do they think is going to do that? The police departments can't get people into their academy classes. Instead of trying to weed out the officers who are substandard, they are begging for anyone to stay, because they do not have enough people to cover shifts. Officers that are there are being forced to work OT they don't want, and are retiring as soon as they can, or even leaving valuable pensions on the table because they can't stand it anymore. The big city departments pay better and offer better benefits, so they will generally attract better recruits -- but even they can't find people, so I can't imagine the small town departments are doing better. The lack of gun control is one big factor -- who wants to do this job knowing that any depressed kid can be armed like an guerilla army?
I also continue to have questions about chain of command decisions here, and whether the 911 operators were feeding hte police the information about continued incoming calls from children who were still alive in the classrooms.

I don't know - maybe we can pay people more in this profession? Just.as with teachers, offer more money. Then you will have more candidates, and you can also weed out the lazy and incompetent and ignorant. Require years of rigorous training. Right now, we get the bottom of the barrel in both these professions because we don't value them.

Although, agreed - even the best trained PO is not going to stand a chance against an AR 15.

Why wouldn't a trained PO with equivalent firepower not stand a chance?

You want guards with AR 15s in schools? Yikes.

You want dead kids instead? Gross.

I don’t. Which is why I support gun reform. Not turning our country into Sudan.

Rainbow unicorns that fart candy would be nice too.

Except literally every other developed country put laws into place and they have very few mass shootings. It's not a unicorn, it's very possible.

These other countries don’t have a Second Amendment and an activist judiciary willing to impose a radical reinterpretation of its meaning after 200 years. They didn’t have millions of firearms owned by people who live in fear of black helicopters. One third of our nation thinks Biden didn’t win and follow Q.

[Anonymous]

They need all that tactical gear so they can intimidate unarmed protestors. But saving dying children? Nah.

[Anonymous]

Reporting from NYT that members of the BORTAC (CBP) tactical team were on site by 12:10 and were told to stand down. They stood by watched as police tried to form a perimeter as kids were being lifted out of windows by parents and other law enforcement personnel.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jdavidgoodman/status/1530212925754966017

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reporting from NYT that members of the BORTAC (CBP) tactical team were on site by 12:10 and were told to stand down. They stood by watched as police tried to form a perimeter as kids were being lifted out of windows by parents and other law enforcement personnel.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jdavidgoodman/status/1530212925754966017

10 and 11,year olds were calling 9-1-1 from their classrooms, surrounded by dead and dying classmates, between 12:03 and 12:47.

[Anonymous]

The whole point of having a tactical team is for situations like this. A complete and utter embarrassment. Even without orders to act, when you are trained in exactly what to do, you act because it’s the one job you have.. you are trained to act. You help and aid those in need. I’m at a loss for words. Not one person thought it was inappropriate to stand down?! Not one on the entire team?

[Anonymous]

We have a national law enforcement memorial honoring those who were killed in the line of duty (444 of whom died from COVID last year). Why not a monument to school kids killed by guns?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a former small Western county attorney, I am unsurprised by the failures of the local cops in this situation. This is aside from whether our cops should ever have to face perpetrators armed with weapons of war. This incident highlights a root reason why we have problems in policing in this country - so many of our law enforcement are woefully undertrained and untested. Other developed countries require years of education before putting law enforcement officers on the street, but in many American jurisdictions, they have as little as a 40 hour training and in some cases they are allowed 12 months of working before having to complete that training. 40 HOURS. The stylist who colors your hair has much more training.

We need police reform in America. We need educated well trained cops.

I don't want to draw attention away from the gun control issue -- which the primary issue and the alpha-omega of this problem. But I agree that training and recruitment of law enforcement is also a huge problem. People keep saying to put more armed security at doors -- who do they think is going to do that? The police departments can't get people into their academy classes. Instead of trying to weed out the officers who are substandard, they are begging for anyone to stay, because they do not have enough people to cover shifts. Officers that are there are being forced to work OT they don't want, and are retiring as soon as they can, or even leaving valuable pensions on the table because they can't stand it anymore. The big city departments pay better and offer better benefits, so they will generally attract better recruits -- but even they can't find people, so I can't imagine the small town departments are doing better. The lack of gun control is one big factor -- who wants to do this job knowing that any depressed kid can be armed like an guerilla army?
I also continue to have questions about chain of command decisions here, and whether the 911 operators were feeding hte police the information about continued incoming calls from children who were still alive in the classrooms.

I don't know - maybe we can pay people more in this profession? Just.as with teachers, offer more money. Then you will have more candidates, and you can also weed out the lazy and incompetent and ignorant. Require years of rigorous training. Right now, we get the bottom of the barrel in both these professions because we don't value them.

Although, agreed - even the best trained PO is not going to stand a chance against an AR 15.

Why wouldn't a trained PO with equivalent firepower not stand a chance?

You want guards with AR 15s in schools? Yikes.

You want dead kids instead? Gross.

I don’t. Which is why I support gun reform. Not turning our country into Sudan.

Rainbow unicorns that fart candy would be nice too.

Except literally every other developed country put laws into place and they have very few mass shootings. It's not a unicorn, it's very possible.

These other countries don’t have a Second Amendment and an activist judiciary willing to impose a radical reinterpretation of its meaning after 200 years. They didn’t have millions of firearms owned by people who live in fear of black helicopters. One third of our nation thinks Biden didn’t win and follow Q.

What are you, a hostage?

Whatever has been done can be undone. We can’t give people their children back but we can do better than rolling over for the crazies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Typo:

WE had the "good guys with guns" -- and the DID NOT stop the bad guy with a gun.

I'm pretty sure he was stopped (i.e., killed) by a good guy with a gun, but understand your point.

Unforunately that "good guy with a gun" took over an hour to arrive - meanwhie the cowards with guns just stood there and played with their d*cks while children died.

The "good guys" with guns just stood around doing nothing -- and some were even holding back the parents who had guns (at least one grabbed one at the barber shop he was at, he was a CPB guy off duty).

The point is that arming people doesn't solve all problems b/c sometimes you actually have to have courage PLUS a gun. Which obviously didn't exist for the first hour. I'm just totally sick about this. I can not imagine how raw the rage must be for the parents -- especially of the girl who called 911 (and others) -- little Amerie. My god. She's taking mature action to get help over and over -- and no one is coming? Total cowards. I would go insane on them if that happened to my 10 yr old.

This. Your last paragraph is what is hitting me so hard, thinking about kids waiting and calling for adult help, and the adults knowing and letting them die. The worst betrayal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The whole point of having a tactical team is for situations like this. A complete and utter embarrassment. Even without orders to act, when you are trained in exactly what to do, you act because it’s the one job you have.. you are trained to act. You help and aid those in need. I’m at a loss for words. Not one person thought it was inappropriate to stand down?! Not one on the entire team?

Chain of command. And Feds are generally supposed to defer to locals unless terrorism, federal property or other specified circumstances. US Marshals busy handcuffing women trying to rescue her kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Typo:

WE had the "good guys with guns" -- and the DID NOT stop the bad guy with a gun.

I'm pretty sure he was stopped (i.e., killed) by a good guy with a gun, but understand your point.

Unforunately that "good guy with a gun" took over an hour to arrive - meanwhie the cowards with guns just stood there and played with their d*cks while children died.

The "good guys" with guns just stood around doing nothing -- and some were even holding back the parents who had guns (at least one grabbed one at the barber shop he was at, he was a CPB guy off duty).

The point is that arming people doesn't solve all problems b/c sometimes you actually have to have courage PLUS a gun. Which obviously didn't exist for the first hour. I'm just totally sick about this. I can not imagine how raw the rage must be for the parents -- especially of the girl who called 911 (and others) -- little Amerie. My god. She's taking mature action to get help over and over -- and no one is coming? Total cowards. I would go insane on them if that happened to my 10 yr old.

This. Your last paragraph is what is hitting me so hard, thinking about kids waiting and calling for adult help, and the adults knowing and letting them die. The worst betrayal.

What really got me was that they said “please”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a former small Western county attorney, I am unsurprised by the failures of the local cops in this situation. This is aside from whether our cops should ever have to face perpetrators armed with weapons of war. This incident highlights a root reason why we have problems in policing in this country - so many of our law enforcement are woefully undertrained and untested. Other developed countries require years of education before putting law enforcement officers on the street, but in many American jurisdictions, they have as little as a 40 hour training and in some cases they are allowed 12 months of working before having to complete that training. 40 HOURS. The stylist who colors your hair has much more training.

We need police reform in America. We need educated well trained cops.

I don't want to draw attention away from the gun control issue -- which the primary issue and the alpha-omega of this problem. But I agree that training and recruitment of law enforcement is also a huge problem. People keep saying to put more armed security at doors -- who do they think is going to do that? The police departments can't get people into their academy classes. Instead of trying to weed out the officers who are substandard, they are begging for anyone to stay, because they do not have enough people to cover shifts. Officers that are there are being forced to work OT they don't want, and are retiring as soon as they can, or even leaving valuable pensions on the table because they can't stand it anymore. The big city departments pay better and offer better benefits, so they will generally attract better recruits -- but even they can't find people, so I can't imagine the small town departments are doing better. The lack of gun control is one big factor -- who wants to do this job knowing that any depressed kid can be armed like an guerilla army?
I also continue to have questions about chain of command decisions here, and whether the 911 operators were feeding hte police the information about continued incoming calls from children who were still alive in the classrooms.

I don't know - maybe we can pay people more in this profession? Just.as with teachers, offer more money. Then you will have more candidates, and you can also weed out the lazy and incompetent and ignorant. Require years of rigorous training. Right now, we get the bottom of the barrel in both these professions because we don't value them.

Although, agreed - even the best trained PO is not going to stand a chance against an AR 15.

Why wouldn't a trained PO with equivalent firepower not stand a chance?

You want guards with AR 15s in schools? Yikes.

You want dead kids instead? Gross.

I don’t. Which is why I support gun reform. Not turning our country into Sudan.

Rainbow unicorns that fart candy would be nice too.

Except literally every other developed country put laws into place and they have very few mass shootings. It's not a unicorn, it's very possible.

These other countries don’t have a Second Amendment and an activist judiciary willing to impose a radical reinterpretation of its meaning after 200 years. They didn’t have millions of firearms owned by people who live in fear of black helicopters. One third of our nation thinks Biden didn’t win and follow Q.

What are you, a hostage?

Whatever has been done can be undone. We can’t give people their children back but we can do better than rolling over for the crazies.

The Party of Trump will most likely control the House and Senate in January 2023. I’m just at being realistic because too many Americans can’t be bothered to vote for whatever reason. I saw the same yearning for change after Newtown. After Majorie Stoneman Douglas. After too many others to count. I live in DC. I don’t have a voting voice in Congress.

[Anonymous]

The off duty CBP guy with the gun taken from the barber shop did assemble a team of volunteers to enter the school away from the shooter and they safely evacuated a ton of classrooms including the man’s daughter. There was a story about him in NYT. All while the cops did nothing.