Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Okay. The most recent perinatal mortality rate (per 1000) is 7. Perinatal mortality is all births measured from 22 weeks gestation to one week after birth.

We have been told that Carr has attended 1200 births -- meaning for her rate to be equivalent to the US average perinatal rate she should only have had 8.4 infant deaths (from 22 weeks gestation on) during her entire practice. Generally, I would think that as a midwife the rate she should be matching is lower than 7 per 1000, as her births SHOULD HAVE BEEN all low risk (that she would not be attending births of infants with apparent genetic or physical abnormalities, mothers with gd or PIH, multiples (including higher order multiples) or premature births, all of which are included in the United States 7/1000 perinatal mortality rate).

However, I am willing to cut her some slack for purposes of this exercise.

Per the WaPo article, she had TWO deaths (of full term infants) in ONE QUARTER of last year alone. Can we really assume that in the fifteen-some other years of her practice as a midwife that she had only 6 other infant deaths (measuring all infant death of her clients from 22 weeks on)?

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry -- the idea that she left a mother suffering from PPH with an assistant, while going on to attend another birth is insane!!

Anyone who would defend her after hearing that is not rationale on the subject of Karen Carr or midwifery generally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry -- the idea that she left a mother suffering from PPH with an assistant, while going on to attend another birth is insane!!

Anyone who would defend her after hearing that is not rationale on the subject of Karen Carr or midwifery generally.

That is hysterical. What the hell do you think happens in a hospital? Where do you think your OB is during your labor?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry -- the idea that she left a mother suffering from PPH with an assistant, while going on to attend another birth is insane!!

Anyone who would defend her after hearing that is not rationale on the subject of Karen Carr or midwifery generally.

That is hysterical. What the hell do you think happens in a hospital? Where do you think your OB is during your labor?

Yup, OBs routinely clear out the hospital of all but one nurse assistant when you have a problem there. You didn't know that? There's no one else around anywhere!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry -- the idea that she left a mother suffering from PPH with an assistant, while going on to attend another birth is insane!!

Anyone who would defend her after hearing that is not rationale on the subject of Karen Carr or midwifery generally.

That is hysterical. What the hell do you think happens in a hospital? Where do you think your OB is during your labor?

OB Doc here and for the record, post partum hemorrhages are emergent situations that require interventions that sometimes require life saving surgeries.

I don't know of any OBs who manage these types of situations over the phone. It is fine to support home births in select patients, but can we stop the sweeping statements made about hospitals in general and the care OBs provide specifically? It only serves to dilute the meaningful dialogue that needs to happen so that tragic situations like this do not continue to happen.

Patients need to be properly informed about risks and "boogey-man" tales about OB care does not help to promote wellness and good decision making for anyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The WP article is crap. The stats given by the OB from the ACOG is based on a study that was debunked as soon as it came out. Anybody who draws conclusions based on a news article alone is a fool.

With the number of births KC has attended, there are going to be sad outcomes. It's almost a statistical certainty.

Yes most things written by the WP are crap, but again no one has stood up to say that they were there or actually knows what happened- so everyone can speculate all they want, but Ms Carr knows the truth along with others who were there. Has anyone given any thought to why she decided to plea out instead of go to court? Possibly its all those little truths that we dont have access to that brought her to her senses and she opted for her time served instead of going to trial. And for all you that think she is so wonderful, why would you think these convictions would stop her from being a midwife now - she didnt mind breaking the law before by practicing without certifications- whats to stop her now?

No...it's because it meant no jail time. If you knew anything about the judicial system, you would realize how common that is as well as how little truth actually matters.

SOOOOO based on your statement, you think that someone who was completly innocent decided to plea to several felony charges because she didnt want to go to jail? Just want to make sure I understand what you have said. Maybe you can tell me if she was innocent and didnt do anything wrong- that all of the charges were a modern day witch hunt- why in the world would you plead guilty? Why wouldnt you fight? Why wouldnt you stand up for the rights of women to give birth at home and fight for all the legal and legit nurse midwives that do the right thing, obtain the proper certifications and education? Why would you scurry away like a rat and then at the first chance air your buisness in the press? You do that because you know you are guilty. And as for my knowledge of the legal system, most people plea down to lesser charges, ones that dont include several felonies- a felony is a felony- that number will stay on your record forever. As for the truth, it does matter, you just dont want to hear it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry -- the idea that she left a mother suffering from PPH with an assistant, while going on to attend another birth is insane!!

Anyone who would defend her after hearing that is not rationale on the subject of Karen Carr or midwifery generally.

That is hysterical. What the hell do you think happens in a hospital? Where do you think your OB is during your labor?

OB Doc here and for the record, post partum hemorrhages are emergent situations that require interventions that sometimes require life saving surgeries.

I don't know of any OBs who manage these types of situations over the phone. It is fine to support home births in select patients, but can we stop the sweeping statements made about hospitals in general and the care OBs provide specifically? It only serves to dilute the meaningful dialogue that needs to happen so that tragic situations like this do not continue to happen.

Patients need to be properly informed about risks and "boogey-man" tales about OB care does not help to promote wellness and good decision making for anyone.

That's funny, when I had a hemorrhage in the hospital, my OB was nowhere to be found. The charge nurse stepped in and managed the bleeding. 20 minutes later a resident checked in on me, but I was stable by then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry -- the idea that she left a mother suffering from PPH with an assistant, while going on to attend another birth is insane!!

Anyone who would defend her after hearing that is not rationale on the subject of Karen Carr or midwifery generally.

That is hysterical. What the hell do you think happens in a hospital? Where do you think your OB is during your labor?

OB Doc here and for the record, post partum hemorrhages are emergent situations that require interventions that sometimes require life saving surgeries.

I don't know of any OBs who manage these types of situations over the phone. It is fine to support home births in select patients, but can we stop the sweeping statements made about hospitals in general and the care OBs provide specifically? It only serves to dilute the meaningful dialogue that needs to happen so that tragic situations like this do not continue to happen.

Patients need to be properly informed about risks and "boogey-man" tales about OB care does not help to promote wellness and good decision making for anyone.

That's funny, when I had a hemorrhage in the hospital, my OB was nowhere to be found. The charge nurse stepped in and managed the bleeding. 20 minutes later a resident checked in on me, but I was stable by then.

Oh, and beside that, I saw my doctor for about 20 minutes total during my 18 hour labor. It was my nurse who help me move into better positions, it was my nurse who helped my get my labor moving faster, it was my nurse who helped encourage me to go without medications, and it was my nurse who got the OB in the room just in time to deliver my baby. It is insulting that you think that women's real-life experiences are "boogey-man tales".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry -- the idea that she left a mother suffering from PPH with an assistant, while going on to attend another birth is insane!!

Anyone who would defend her after hearing that is not rationale on the subject of Karen Carr or midwifery generally.

That is hysterical. What the hell do you think happens in a hospital? Where do you think your OB is during your labor?

OB Doc here and for the record, post partum hemorrhages are emergent situations that require interventions that sometimes require life saving surgeries.

I don't know of any OBs who manage these types of situations over the phone. It is fine to support home births in select patients, but can we stop the sweeping statements made about hospitals in general and the care OBs provide specifically? It only serves to dilute the meaningful dialogue that needs to happen so that tragic situations like this do not continue to happen.

Patients need to be properly informed about risks and "boogey-man" tales about OB care does not help to promote wellness and good decision making for anyone.

"Clients" need to have "informed-choice" about risks and boogey-man tales about midwifery care does not help to promote wellness and good decision making for anyone.

I changed your words around and used midwifery model of care language. I totally agree. I would also like to add that clients cannot receive safe and adequate care unless providers along the skill-set spectrum collaborate and consult in a professional manner. I see this as the biggest barrier to safe care for women. Women want the whole spectrum of care to be available to them. They want the high-touch all of the time (as evidenced by listening to mothers survey) and they want safe transfer of care to a skilled provider when their health status changes. What we are offered is either high-tech or high-touch and we rarely ever get both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The WP article is crap. The stats given by the OB from the ACOG is based on a study that was debunked as soon as it came out. Anybody who draws conclusions based on a news article alone is a fool.

With the number of births KC has attended, there are going to be sad outcomes. It's almost a statistical certainty.

Yes most things written by the WP are crap, but again no one has stood up to say that they were there or actually knows what happened- so everyone can speculate all they want, but Ms Carr knows the truth along with others who were there. Has anyone given any thought to why she decided to plea out instead of go to court? Possibly its all those little truths that we dont have access to that brought her to her senses and she opted for her time served instead of going to trial. And for all you that think she is so wonderful, why would you think these convictions would stop her from being a midwife now - she didnt mind breaking the law before by practicing without certifications- whats to stop her now?

No...it's because it meant no jail time. If you knew anything about the judicial system, you would realize how common that is as well as how little truth actually matters.

SOOOOO based on your statement, you think that someone who was completly innocent decided to plea to several felony charges because she didnt want to go to jail? Just want to make sure I understand what you have said. Maybe you can tell me if she was innocent and didnt do anything wrong- that all of the charges were a modern day witch hunt- why in the world would you plead guilty? Why wouldnt you fight? Why wouldnt you stand up for the rights of women to give birth at home and fight for all the legal and legit nurse midwives that do the right thing, obtain the proper certifications and education? Why would you scurry away like a rat and then at the first chance air your buisness in the press? You do that because you know you are guilty. And as for my knowledge of the legal system, most people plea down to lesser charges, ones that dont include several felonies- a felony is a felony- that number will stay on your record forever. As for the truth, it does matter, you just dont want to hear it

I completely disagree with your statement. You plea guilty if you know for certain you are going to avoid jail time. She was potentially facing 30+ years in prison. Public sentiment does not typically support alternative views in our society, so it is reasonable to think that a jury would have found her guilty. I believe her that she pled guilty to ensure her freedom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The WP article is crap. The stats given by the OB from the ACOG is based on a study that was debunked as soon as it came out. Anybody who draws conclusions based on a news article alone is a fool.

With the number of births KC has attended, there are going to be sad outcomes. It's almost a statistical certainty.

Yes most things written by the WP are crap, but again no one has stood up to say that they were there or actually knows what happened- so everyone can speculate all they want, but Ms Carr knows the truth along with others who were there. Has anyone given any thought to why she decided to plea out instead of go to court? Possibly its all those little truths that we dont have access to that brought her to her senses and she opted for her time served instead of going to trial. And for all you that think she is so wonderful, why would you think these convictions would stop her from being a midwife now - she didnt mind breaking the law before by practicing without certifications- whats to stop her now?

No...it's because it meant no jail time. If you knew anything about the judicial system, you would realize how common that is as well as how little truth actually matters.

SOOOOO based on your statement, you think that someone who was completly innocent decided to plea to several felony charges because she didnt want to go to jail? Just want to make sure I understand what you have said. Maybe you can tell me if she was innocent and didnt do anything wrong- that all of the charges were a modern day witch hunt- why in the world would you plead guilty? Why wouldnt you fight? Why wouldnt you stand up for the rights of women to give birth at home and fight for all the legal and legit nurse midwives that do the right thing, obtain the proper certifications and education? Why would you scurry away like a rat and then at the first chance air your buisness in the press? You do that because you know you are guilty. And as for my knowledge of the legal system, most people plea down to lesser charges, ones that dont include several felonies- a felony is a felony- that number will stay on your record forever. As for the truth, it does matter, you just dont want to hear it

I completely disagree with your statement. You plea guilty if you know for certain you are going to avoid jail time. She was potentially facing 30+ years in prison. Public sentiment does not typically support alternative views in our society, so it is reasonable to think that a jury would have found her guilty. I believe her that she pled guilty to ensure her freedom.

Thank you. Can I get an Amen for some logical thinking here? Now can you tell me why Boucher would back off and not throw her in jail?

[Anonymous]

Ensure her freedom=going on to kill babies! Applause all around!

I am pretty sure that most people experiencing PPH would rather be left with a nurse then a CNM assistant (are there even standards for that?). Hell, I would take a med student or nursing student even over my midwife injecting me with something then heading out. Nice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ensure her freedom=going on to kill babies! Applause all around!

I am pretty sure that most people experiencing PPH would rather be left with a nurse then a CNM assistant (are there even standards for that?). Hell, I would take a med student or nursing student even over my midwife injecting me with something then heading out. Nice.

I think that was a CPM assistant, which means that the person hadn't reached that magical 40 births yet to become a CPM on her own. Yeah, I would also feel more comfortable with an L&D nurse or a medical student than a CPM assistant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ensure her freedom=going on to kill babies! Applause all around!

I am pretty sure that most people experiencing PPH would rather be left with a nurse then a CNM assistant (are there even standards for that?). Hell, I would take a med student or nursing student even over my midwife injecting me with something then heading out. Nice.

If she were that dangerous why did Boucher offer plea? She isn't protecting us from the killer. Somebody please offer an answer or even a speculation as to why Boucher didn't put this "killer of babies" in jail? Oh, I got one, her case fell apart and was a bunch of garbage and she had to offer.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I mean CPM assistant NOT CNM assistant -- I would take a CNM assistant for a PPH any day.

I don't know why Boucher offered her a plea deal. Perhaps the family wasn't up for testifying. Perhaps what they were going for was to have her promise to never deliver in VA again. Perhaps they just wanted her to plead guilty to felonies. Cases are plead down all the time. I think it was to Karen Carr's advantage that they even offered a plea deal. I am pretty sure KC and her lawyer were begging for one. Get her off the streets of VA and then let the other jurisdictions go after her too. Like the woman in the WashPost article, I bet they are being approached by more women who now feel more comfortable coming forward to tell their tales.