what's with local pols opposing expanding 270 and 495?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The "induced demand" theory applies in the long run not short run. The question is how long it takes to reach that. For example, the ICC was opened about 10 years ago. It's still not congested. What happened to induced demand?

The other thing about it is that if the claim adding lanes makes traffic worse, then why not reduce 270 to 1 lane each way. Won't that make traffic better? We know it wont...

As for people working near their home, that's ideal, but in a 2-earner household, it's not easy for both parents to find a job near their home, and it's not easy to just pick up and move each time someone gets a new job. It's also not likely the person will hold that job for 20+ years. So, people will need to commute.

Induced demand does not apply to HOT lanes. Because access is restricted and you have to pay to use them, it does not induce any additional demand to thr non-tolled lanes.

Then it also won't provide any "congestion relief" to the non-tolled lanes.

It will provide relief to the people who pay the toll. That’s why it’s a toll lane.

Yes, and everybody else is going to be sitting in the same traffic they were sitting in before, watching affluent people pay their way into faster car trips. It's odd how the Hogan administration isn't making that clear to Maryland residents, don't you think?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Transportation is the cornerstone of economic development. If you deny the ability to upgrade infrastructure without an alternative, the economy will not grow. There is no alternative proposed by TPB. They have only proposed further studies.

There are multiple alternatives proposed by the members of the TPB, though.

The TPB did not endorse or approve any alternative. They only blocked the project and proposed studies.

The TPB cannot approve projects that have not been proposed, and the only thing Hogan has proposed is his P3 toll lane project.

The individual views of any one member are irrelevant. Good grief. But, but …pffffft.

The blocked it, at the behest of the county council, who have no alternatives. Meanwhile, they did not block VAs HOT lanes and would not have blocked the extension of those lanes to the bridge.

The council did this and they have no plan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Transportation is the cornerstone of economic development. If you deny the ability to upgrade infrastructure without an alternative, the economy will not grow. There is no alternative proposed by TPB. They have only proposed further studies.

There are multiple alternatives proposed by the members of the TPB, though.

The TPB did not endorse or approve any alternative. They only blocked the project and proposed studies.

The TPB cannot approve projects that have not been proposed, and the only thing Hogan has proposed is his P3 toll lane project.

The individual views of any one member are irrelevant. Good grief. But, but …pffffft.

The blocked it, at the behest of the county council, who have no alternatives. Meanwhile, they did not block VAs HOT lanes and would not have blocked the extension of those lanes to the bridge.

The council did this and they have no plan.

Actually through the proposal of the county executive. Both the county executive and the members of the county council have proposed alternatives. Will the Hogan administration consider any of them, or will they continue to insist on trying to ram their proposal through?

If you're upset that representatives from Virginia jurisdictions voted to not approve a Maryland road project, then you should go yell at the representatives from Virginia jurisdictions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Actually through the proposal of the county executive. Both the county executive and the members of the county council have proposed alternatives. Will the Hogan administration consider any of them, or will they continue to insist on trying to ram their proposal through?

What specific proposal? Last I heard from Elrich was 1) make existing HOV lanes reversible and 2) tell people to use the ICC (as if Google Maps never heard of it!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, and everybody else is going to be sitting in the same traffic they were sitting in before, watching affluent people pay their way into faster car trips. It's odd how the Hogan administration isn't making that clear to Maryland residents, don't you think?

Aren't they going to be HOT lanes like in VA? We use the 495 Express Lanes all the time but never pay. It's free if you have at least 3 people in the car, which we do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people who support it have not really learned about the plan. 2 New lanes plus the HOV 2 lanes will become 24-7 Toll HOV-3 lanes. I think the projected toll is about $20 from the MD line to exit 9. The lanes will stop there...and the traffic will too. There is no help for anyone above exit 9. The toll lanes will be completely seperate from the non-toll lanes. If you want to enter the toll lanes you will use seperate entrances which do not exist now...like Guide. You can not go from non-toll to toll lanes with out exiting the highway and driving on local roads. I do support some expansion but not this one.

Plus, nobody is going to pay those tolls unless the non-toll lanes are backed up.

Just like no one in VA pays the tolls?

People in Virginia pay the tolls even when the traffic is flowing freely in the non-toll lanes? That's foolish of them. What do they do that for?

Because it's unpredictable and you have few places to enter the toll lanes, so you need to decide when you are entering the highway. At certain times of day, it may have low tolls because traffic is light, but you know it's likely to jam up by the time you're half-way into your journey (like at the start of rush hour).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Under Hogan's toll-lane proposal, there won't be any "congestion relief" for people in the non-toll lanes, because if the non-toll lanes are moving without back-ups, then nobody will pay for the tolls. And if nobody pays for the tolls, then Transurban won't make a profit. And if Transurban doesn't make a profit, guess who'll pay Transurban to make up for it? Yes, you're right: Maryland taxpayers.

Plenty of people will use the toll lanes, even if it's not that congested. It will be free to HOV-3+ drivers, just like in VA. That will get vehicles off the non-tolled lanes.

[Anonymous]

Same story as usual, take a lot of poor minorities' land to expand for shitty highways. Good thing it has been pared back....for now.

Funny how we can't get public transportation because rich assholes in Bethesda and Chevy Chase though are angry that the purple line might cause a little bit of inconvenience. Build over where those poor minorities live though? No problem!

God America sucks. All anyone can ever think about is stupid car centric transportation We should be trying to develop like an actual 1st world country like Japan, Germany, China, Singapore, or South Korea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, and everybody else is going to be sitting in the same traffic they were sitting in before, watching affluent people pay their way into faster car trips. It's odd how the Hogan administration isn't making that clear to Maryland residents, don't you think?

Aren't they going to be HOT lanes like in VA? We use the 495 Express Lanes all the time but never pay. It's free if you have at least 3 people in the car, which we do.

Slug lots too. Stop off in the am pick up two others going to your general vicinity. Does MD not slug?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Under Hogan's toll-lane proposal, there won't be any "congestion relief" for people in the non-toll lanes, because if the non-toll lanes are moving without back-ups, then nobody will pay for the tolls. And if nobody pays for the tolls, then Transurban won't make a profit. And if Transurban doesn't make a profit, guess who'll pay Transurban to make up for it? Yes, you're right: Maryland taxpayers.

Plenty of people will use the toll lanes, even if it's not that congested. It will be free to HOV-3+ drivers, just like in VA. That will get vehicles off the non-tolled lanes.

We already have that now. No need to build anything.

That does raise a question, though. If the only cars that use the HOT lanes are carpools, and carpools don't have to pay tolls, how will Transurban make a profit?

And another question: if Transurban doesn't make a profit from tolls, who will be on the hook for making up the lost revenue? Because Transurban isn't going to just keep on operating the lanes at a loss.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The "induced demand" theory applies in the long run not short run. The question is how long it takes to reach that. For example, the ICC was opened about 10 years ago. It's still not congested. What happened to induced demand?

The other thing about it is that if the claim adding lanes makes traffic worse, then why not reduce 270 to 1 lane each way. Won't that make traffic better? We know it wont...

As for people working near their home, that's ideal, but in a 2-earner household, it's not easy for both parents to find a job near their home, and it's not easy to just pick up and move each time someone gets a new job. It's also not likely the person will hold that job for 20+ years. So, people will need to commute.

Induced demand does not apply to HOT lanes. Because access is restricted and you have to pay to use them, it does not induce any additional demand to thr non-tolled lanes.

Then it also won't provide any "congestion relief" to the non-tolled lanes.

It will provide relief to the people who pay the toll. That’s why it’s a toll lane.

Yes, and everybody else is going to be sitting in the same traffic they were sitting in before, watching affluent people pay their way into faster car trips. It's odd how the Hogan administration isn't making that clear to Maryland residents, don't you think?

It is a exactly the idea that everyone else sits in traffic. That’s the whole point of HOT lanes. They establish a market price on lost time due to traffic.

This is a stupid game. No toll and you cry “induced demand”. Toll and you cry “not fair”. And then in another breath complain that roads are subsidized and people are not paying the full cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Same story as usual, take a lot of poor minorities' land to expand for shitty highways. Good thing it has been pared back....for now.

Funny how we can't get public transportation because rich assholes in Bethesda and Chevy Chase though are angry that the purple line might cause a little bit of inconvenience. Build over where those poor minorities live though? No problem!

God America sucks. All anyone can ever think about is stupid car centric transportation We should be trying to develop like an actual 1st world country like Japan, Germany, China, Singapore, or South Korea.

WTH are you talking about? The PL was halted because contractors left the job. It's not the fault of anybody living in Bethesda or Chevy Chase. Sorry to interrupt your rant with facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
It is a exactly the idea that everyone else sits in traffic. That’s the whole point of HOT lanes. They establish a market price on lost time due to traffic.

This is a stupid game. No toll and you cry “induced demand”. Toll and you cry “not fair”. And then in another breath complain that roads are subsidized and people are not paying the full cost.

Those are just statements of fact.

-If there are no tolls, then there will be induced demand.

-If there are tolls, then the people who don't pay the tolls will sit in the same traffic (or maybe worse traffic) than before.

-The roads are subsidized, and drivers are not paying the full costs of driving.

It's up to you to decide how you want those facts to affect your opinions.

If Hogan were proposing to toll existing lanes, and Hogan were not proposing to do everything at supposedly $0 taxpayer expense because a for-profit company is going to do it all, then we could have a discussion about putting a market price on driving. Neither is true, however. Hogan is promising a free lunch for everyone, and you know there's no such thing as a free lunch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Same story as usual, take a lot of poor minorities' land to expand for shitty highways. Good thing it has been pared back....for now.

Funny how we can't get public transportation because rich assholes in Bethesda and Chevy Chase though are angry that the purple line might cause a little bit of inconvenience. Build over where those poor minorities live though? No problem!

God America sucks. All anyone can ever think about is stupid car centric transportation We should be trying to develop like an actual 1st world country like Japan, Germany, China, Singapore, or South Korea.

WTH are you talking about? The PL was halted because contractors left the job. It's not the fault of anybody living in Bethesda or Chevy Chase. Sorry to interrupt your rant with facts.

The Purple Line was halted because the contractors left the job after delays caused by the lawsuits filed by some residents of the Town of Chevy Chase. If not for the Town of Chevy Chase and the Columbia Country Club, the Purple Line would have been started, and finished, years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It is a exactly the idea that everyone else sits in traffic. That’s the whole point of HOT lanes. They establish a market price on lost time due to traffic.

This is a stupid game. No toll and you cry “induced demand”. Toll and you cry “not fair”. And then in another breath complain that roads are subsidized and people are not paying the full cost.

Those are just statements of fact.

-If there are no tolls, then there will be induced demand.

-If there are tolls, then the people who don't pay the tolls will sit in the same traffic (or maybe worse traffic) than before.

-The roads are subsidized, and drivers are not paying the full costs of driving.

It's up to you to decide how you want those facts to affect your opinions.

If Hogan were proposing to toll existing lanes, and Hogan were not proposing to do everything at supposedly $0 taxpayer expense because a for-profit company is going to do it all, then we could have a discussion about putting a market price on driving. Neither is true, however. Hogan is promising a free lunch for everyone, and you know there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Absolute clown shoes. I have an idea, whatever pitfall amount of money you make is not fair because someone makes less. So you won’t be allowed to make more than the lowest paid person. Fair enough now?

Clearly you are a proto-Trotskyite. Which makes a lot of sense.