what's with local pols opposing expanding 270 and 495?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And no, drivers don't pay the full cost of their driving. The federal gas tax was last increased in 1993.

Then factor in the costs of water pollution, air pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, and crashes (first responders, lost wages, medical costs, etc.). And all that "free" parking.

Can you calculate the present value of Metro CAPEX + OPEX shortfall subsidies since 1976?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And no, drivers don't pay the full cost of their driving. The federal gas tax was last increased in 1993.

Then factor in the costs of water pollution, air pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, and crashes (first responders, lost wages, medical costs, etc.). And all that "free" parking.

Can you calculate the present value of Metro CAPEX + OPEX shortfall subsidies since 1976?

Is anybody disputing that Metro is subsidized? No, nobody is disputing that. Metro subsidies are line items in the budget, unlike subsidies for driving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And no, drivers don't pay the full cost of their driving. The federal gas tax was last increased in 1993.

Then factor in the costs of water pollution, air pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, and crashes (first responders, lost wages, medical costs, etc.). And all that "free" parking.

Can you calculate the present value of Metro CAPEX + OPEX shortfall subsidies since 1976?

Is anybody disputing that Metro is subsidized? No, nobody is disputing that. Metro subsidies are line items in the budget, unlike subsidies for driving.

So what are these subsidies for driving and how would you propose to normalize and compare transit subsidies against your road subsidies?

Would you also consider economic value?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And no, drivers don't pay the full cost of their driving. The federal gas tax was last increased in 1993.

Then factor in the costs of water pollution, air pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, and crashes (first responders, lost wages, medical costs, etc.). And all that "free" parking.

Can you calculate the present value of Metro CAPEX + OPEX shortfall subsidies since 1976?

Is anybody disputing that Metro is subsidized? No, nobody is disputing that. Metro subsidies are line items in the budget, unlike subsidies for driving.

So what are these subsidies for driving and how would you propose to normalize and compare transit subsidies against your road subsidies?

Would you also consider economic value?

There's a whole body of research about this. If you're interested in answers to your questions, go take a look.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And no, drivers don't pay the full cost of their driving. The federal gas tax was last increased in 1993.

Then factor in the costs of water pollution, air pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, and crashes (first responders, lost wages, medical costs, etc.). And all that "free" parking.

Can you calculate the present value of Metro CAPEX + OPEX shortfall subsidies since 1976?

Is anybody disputing that Metro is subsidized? No, nobody is disputing that. Metro subsidies are line items in the budget, unlike subsidies for driving.

So what are these subsidies for driving and how would you propose to normalize and compare transit subsidies against your road subsidies?

Would you also consider economic value?

DP

Oil subsidies
Rubber subsidies
Steel subsidies
land subsidies to make roads
How about fighting wars in the middle east subsidies
oil tanker subsidies
Environmental subsidies - ie drivers don't pay for the pollution they create

Shall I go on?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And no, drivers don't pay the full cost of their driving. The federal gas tax was last increased in 1993.

Then factor in the costs of water pollution, air pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, and crashes (first responders, lost wages, medical costs, etc.). And all that "free" parking.

Can you calculate the present value of Metro CAPEX + OPEX shortfall subsidies since 1976?

Is anybody disputing that Metro is subsidized? No, nobody is disputing that. Metro subsidies are line items in the budget, unlike subsidies for driving.

So what are these subsidies for driving and how would you propose to normalize and compare transit subsidies against your road subsidies?

Would you also consider economic value?

DP

Oil subsidies
Rubber subsidies
Steel subsidies
land subsidies to make roads
How about fighting wars in the middle east subsidies
oil tanker subsidies
Environmental subsidies - ie drivers don't pay for the pollution they create

Shall I go on?

Actually yes. You need to calculate what you believe the derived subsidy is to driving from these things you identified and compare to transit. For example, wouldn’t rail lines and cars benefit from steel subsidies too? What are the related environmental subsidies related to the electricity generation that run Metro? For example, there are LCO peaking power plants, so oil subsidies also apply too.

It’s not clear to me that you have actually analyzed this is a systematic way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Actually yes. You need to calculate what you believe the derived subsidy is to driving from these things you identified and compare to transit. For example, wouldn’t rail lines and cars benefit from steel subsidies too? What are the related environmental subsidies related to the electricity generation that run Metro? For example, there are LCO peaking power plants, so oil subsidies also apply too.

It’s not clear to me that you have actually analyzed this is a systematic way.

Stop arguing with random anonymous people on the internet and go read the actual studies - assuming your goal is learning. If your goal is arguing with random anonymous people on the internet, keep doing what you're doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually yes. You need to calculate what you believe the derived subsidy is to driving from these things you identified and compare to transit. For example, wouldn’t rail lines and cars benefit from steel subsidies too? What are the related environmental subsidies related to the electricity generation that run Metro? For example, there are LCO peaking power plants, so oil subsidies also apply too.

It’s not clear to me that you have actually analyzed this is a systematic way.

Stop arguing with random anonymous people on the internet and go read the actual studies - assuming your goal is learning. If your goal is arguing with random anonymous people on the internet, keep doing what you're doing.

I’m sorry for you that you have not thought through your examples very well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually yes. You need to calculate what you believe the derived subsidy is to driving from these things you identified and compare to transit. For example, wouldn’t rail lines and cars benefit from steel subsidies too? What are the related environmental subsidies related to the electricity generation that run Metro? For example, there are LCO peaking power plants, so oil subsidies also apply too.

It’s not clear to me that you have actually analyzed this is a systematic way.

Stop arguing with random anonymous people on the internet and go read the actual studies - assuming your goal is learning. If your goal is arguing with random anonymous people on the internet, keep doing what you're doing.

I’m sorry for you that you have not thought through your examples very well.

DP. As PP said, go read the studies if you're interested in learning. I suspect you will not, however, because they arrive at different conclusions than you do. But please do keep us apprised, lest we spill any more digital ink indulging your desire to be argumentative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually yes. You need to calculate what you believe the derived subsidy is to driving from these things you identified and compare to transit. For example, wouldn’t rail lines and cars benefit from steel subsidies too? What are the related environmental subsidies related to the electricity generation that run Metro? For example, there are LCO peaking power plants, so oil subsidies also apply too.

It’s not clear to me that you have actually analyzed this is a systematic way.

Stop arguing with random anonymous people on the internet and go read the actual studies - assuming your goal is learning. If your goal is arguing with random anonymous people on the internet, keep doing what you're doing.

I’m sorry for you that you have not thought through your examples very well.

DP. As PP said, go read the studies if you're interested in learning. I suspect you will not, however, because they arrive at different conclusions than you do. But please do keep us apprised, lest we spill any more digital ink indulging your desire to be argumentative.

Can you provide a link? I would be interested to read these studies. The only studies I have read show that comparable economic multipliers for roads is substantially larger than mass transit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if there were a reliable bus option to the beach, teens and twenty something would use it. Instead, their parents have to drive the teens or the twenty something drive cars, clogging the roads for the families.

Provide buses and it frees up road capacity for the cars.

There is a reliable bus option to the beach. Non-stop direct service in fact.

https://www.bestbus.com/

But why is t there an option from Bethesda like the buses to NYC? That would be more convenient

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if there were a reliable bus option to the beach, teens and twenty something would use it. Instead, their parents have to drive the teens or the twenty something drive cars, clogging the roads for the families.

Provide buses and it frees up road capacity for the cars.

There is a reliable bus option to the beach. Non-stop direct service in fact.

https://www.bestbus.com/

From Dupont Circle (which is in DC) to Rehoboth and Dewey Beach (which are both in Delaware).

You'd think the governor of Maryland, who is so concerned about the Ocean City economy, would encourage a reliable bus option for Marylanders to get to the Maryland beaches. But you'd be wrong.

For someone who dislikes Hogan so much, you’re strangely obsessed with going to his favorite beach town. Why didn’t O’Malley set it up?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Actually yes. You need to calculate what you believe the derived subsidy is to driving from these things you identified and compare to transit. For example, wouldn’t rail lines and cars benefit from steel subsidies too? What are the related environmental subsidies related to the electricity generation that run Metro? For example, there are LCO peaking power plants, so oil subsidies also apply too.

It’s not clear to me that you have actually analyzed this is a systematic way.

Stop arguing with random anonymous people on the internet and go read the actual studies - assuming your goal is learning. If your goal is arguing with random anonymous people on the internet, keep doing what you're doing.

I’m sorry for you that you have not thought through your examples very well.

DP. As PP said, go read the studies if you're interested in learning. I suspect you will not, however, because they arrive at different conclusions than you do. But please do keep us apprised, lest we spill any more digital ink indulging your desire to be argumentative.

Can you provide a link? I would be interested to read these studies. The only studies I have read show that comparable economic multipliers for roads is substantially larger than mass transit.

Still waiting on that link. It’s getting late, but I wanted to follow your suggestion and read up on this issue more but you have not even provided a citation I can look up? Anything useful would be appreciated and hopefully it provides the side-by-side direct comparison, which would be great to see. Thanks in advance!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Except the public transportation options proposed by people like the PP will also leave ALL drivers sitting in worse traffic than before as they take existing lanes for dedicated bus lanes, etc.

Public transportation is even more subsidized by government than driving.

Actually, I think that most drivers probably pay the full costs of their own driving. Most road damage is caused by trucking, and ALL consumers should be bearing the cost to fix roads if they consume anything brought to market on a truck.

If you were sitting there on the highway in your single-occupancy vehicle, fingers clenched around the steering wheel, surrounded by other people in their single-occupancy vehicles, and you saw a bus go by in the dedicated bus lane, would you think

a. Hey, maybe I should try using that bus for my trip!
b. I don't care how much faster/more convenient/less stressful it might be to go by bus, I am never ever ever going anywhere except in my own car.

.

Do you think everyone lives in the same neighborhood and works the same schedule as their co-workers? The only people I know who have made a dedicated carpool work did it from Annapolis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Except the public transportation options proposed by people like the PP will also leave ALL drivers sitting in worse traffic than before as they take existing lanes for dedicated bus lanes, etc.

Public transportation is even more subsidized by government than driving.

Actually, I think that most drivers probably pay the full costs of their own driving. Most road damage is caused by trucking, and ALL consumers should be bearing the cost to fix roads if they consume anything brought to market on a truck.

If you were sitting there on the highway in your single-occupancy vehicle, fingers clenched around the steering wheel, surrounded by other people in their single-occupancy vehicles, and you saw a bus go by in the dedicated bus lane, would you think

a. Hey, maybe I should try using that bus for my trip!
b. I don't care how much faster/more convenient/less stressful it might be to go by bus, I am never ever ever going anywhere except in my own car.

.

Do you think everyone lives in the same neighborhood and works the same schedule as their co-workers? The only people I know who have made a dedicated carpool work did it from Annapolis.

Key word bolded.