Affirmative Action should be income-based, not race-based

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:All you posters who are insisting that minorities admitted to competitive schools with lower grades and scores than white and Asian students do just as well, be realistic. In what universe would you put a crop of B- stidents in with straight A students, and not expect the former group to struggle to keep up with the latter group?

I've worked in the industry. I can tell you that that a high percentage of the minorities admitted under the lesser AA standards require a lot of tutoring to stay in the program. (Competitive universities invest a lot in keeping the AA students in their programs since they want to keep the drop-out rate low.) By comparison, the minorities who would have gained admission under the standard guidelines, which constitute about a third of minorities. do not need extra tutoring to keep from failing. As one would expect. After all, they were "equal" in terms of grades and test scores as the non-minority students.

Stanford had to create a couple of “physics for dummies” type courses to boost retention of URM students. Is that really the way AA is supposed to work? Pretty pathetic.

Or was the class created for the athletes?

DP but I posted in another thread about the lower level physics classes at Stanford. The classes are for the underrepresented who could not do the rigorous work of Stanford classes. It is part of a push by Stanford to be more inclusive.

Citation?

I cannot get it to link but the source material is the August 14, 2019 Stanford Newsletter. Please Google it or I will yet to download later. Thank you.

Here's the link:

https://news.stanford.edu/2019/08/14/making-physics-inclusive/

And a key quote:
"Physics 41E: The same as Physics 41: Mechanics, which is a required course for physics majors, but with added support. Students from underrepresented groups often don’t have the same level of preparation from high school as their majority peers. The difference in preparation is large enough that it may lead students to drop out of the major but small enough that the kind of support offered by this course can be enough to keep them in."

Why were these students admitted in the first place if they don't have the same level of preparation to the point that they cannot succeed at the standard level of curriculum rigor.

Maybe there wasn’t easy access to calculus or AP physics in HS for them.

Nope, here's the course info page:

https://explorecourses.stanford.edu/search?view=catalog&filter-coursestatus-Active=on&page=0&q=PHYSICS41

Prerequisite: High school physics and MATH 20 or MATH 51 or CME 100 or equivalent. Minimum co-requisite: MATH 21 or equivalent.

Just high school physics. From the description for 41E: "Physics 41E ( Physics 41 Extended) is an 5-unit version of Physics 41 (4 units) for students with little or no high school physics or calculus." Why would a demanding school like Stanford accept into the physics major a student who has had little or no high school physics or calculus?

Because it is possible to become a significant contributor in physics or math without having the “right” high school experience. If Stanford believes these kids are in that cohort, they should whatever they could to encourage them. I remind you of that swiss patent clerk who never went to a “rigorous college prep school”.

Sure it's POSSIBLE that a black kid who never took a physics or higher math course in high school MIGHT have some aptitude for it, but it's a big unknown. On the other hand, a poor white kid from a working-class background HAS taken those courses, and aced them, proving his ability. Why should the black kid who never took those courses (and scored lower in tests and grades in other subjects when compared to the white kid) get admitted, and the poor whites kid gets a rejection letter?

There is no way you can spin this to make it fair. It's past time to abolish race-based AA policies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you posters who are insisting that minorities admitted to competitive schools with lower grades and scores than white and Asian students do just as well, be realistic. In what universe would you put a crop of B- stidents in with straight A students, and not expect the former group to struggle to keep up with the latter group?

I've worked in the industry. I can tell you that that a high percentage of the minorities admitted under the lesser AA standards require a lot of tutoring to stay in the program. (Competitive universities invest a lot in keeping the AA students in their programs since they want to keep the drop-out rate low.) By comparison, the minorities who would have gained admission under the standard guidelines, which constitute about a third of minorities. do not need extra tutoring to keep from failing. As one would expect. After all, they were "equal" in terms of grades and test scores as the non-minority students.

Stanford had to create a couple of “physics for dummies” type courses to boost retention of URM students. Is that really the way AA is supposed to work? Pretty pathetic.

Yes, and I've heard black graduates complain that people wonder if they got in - and through - on their own, or whether lesser standards applied. Well. You can't have it both ways. If you lower standards to admit minorities who otherwise would have been rejected, every minority will then be suspected of getting in because of lesser standards.

The people who suffer, beyond the whites who are outright rejected, are the minorities who would have gotten in on their own. If a school has an entering class of 2000 students, 10% of whom are black (200), approximately 70 of them qualified under the "white standard." Approximately 130 would have had to go to a lesser school, if equal standards were applied.

The other ones who suffer are the many excellent Asian Americans who are rejected because according to the racial/ PC police they are "overrepresented."

Get off the cross we need the wood. Apply to a different school. Move on. Be smart and take a full scholarship instead of taking high yielding money out of a lucrative market. Harvard is ONE school.

DP. So why can't the minorities admitted to Harvard under lower standards apply to a different school? Why do the Asians have to go to the lesser school when their grades and scores were higher?

Because their spots were taken by legacies and athletes?

No, their spots were taken by black students with much lower grades and test scores.

Much lower than the athletes? Really?

DP. Yes, blacks get the largest handicaps followed by latinos, athletes and legacies. The data are all there if you care to look.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you posters who are insisting that minorities admitted to competitive schools with lower grades and scores than white and Asian students do just as well, be realistic. In what universe would you put a crop of B- stidents in with straight A students, and not expect the former group to struggle to keep up with the latter group?

I've worked in the industry. I can tell you that that a high percentage of the minorities admitted under the lesser AA standards require a lot of tutoring to stay in the program. (Competitive universities invest a lot in keeping the AA students in their programs since they want to keep the drop-out rate low.) By comparison, the minorities who would have gained admission under the standard guidelines, which constitute about a third of minorities. do not need extra tutoring to keep from failing. As one would expect. After all, they were "equal" in terms of grades and test scores as the non-minority students.

Stanford had to create a couple of “physics for dummies” type courses to boost retention of URM students. Is that really the way AA is supposed to work? Pretty pathetic.

Yes, and I've heard black graduates complain that people wonder if they got in - and through - on their own, or whether lesser standards applied. Well. You can't have it both ways. If you lower standards to admit minorities who otherwise would have been rejected, every minority will then be suspected of getting in because of lesser standards.

The people who suffer, beyond the whites who are outright rejected, are the minorities who would have gotten in on their own. If a school has an entering class of 2000 students, 10% of whom are black (200), approximately 70 of them qualified under the "white standard." Approximately 130 would have had to go to a lesser school, if equal standards were applied.

The other ones who suffer are the many excellent Asian Americans who are rejected because according to the racial/ PC police they are "overrepresented."

Get off the cross we need the wood. Apply to a different school. Move on. Be smart and take a full scholarship instead of taking high yielding money out of a lucrative market. Harvard is ONE school.

DP. So why can't the minorities admitted to Harvard under lower standards apply to a different school? Why do the Asians have to go to the lesser school when their grades and scores were higher?

Because their spots were taken by legacies and athletes?

No, their spots were taken by black students with much lower grades and test scores.

scores

Much lower than the athletes? Really?

DP. Yes, blacks get the largest handicaps followed by latinos, athletes and legacies. The data are all there if you care to look.

It's true about the stats. The organization that produces the med school admission test has some very telling data on its website. The average grades and test scores for blacks admitted to med school are significantly lower for blacks than whites. There is no way in he!! that a kid with a 3.2 average in college is getting into med school - unless he's black.

My friend's son had a high test score and a 3.7 average - but it wasn't good enough to get into med school....any med school. (And he didn't have it easy: His father died when he was 12 and his mother raised him on a single income.) In the meantime, black kids with not much more than a B average and substantially lower scores get accepted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No. Absolutely not.

Poor white people, poor white trash as we call them in my house growing up, still have all the advantages of being white.

It's nonsense to pretend otherwise.

Agree

[Anonymous]

A lot of white people sure have a lot of misguided racial resentment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. Absolutely not.

Poor white people, poor white trash as we call them in my house growing up, still have all the advantages of being white.

It's nonsense to pretend otherwise.

Agree

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:" I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. "

Martin Luther King, Jr.

I missed the part about "except for college admissions where the color of your skin matters a lot."

Affirmative action is a partial remedy for outrageous racial discrimination, which still exists in housing, education, and employment.

FFS how many handicaps do you want and for how long?

Until the cycle of poverty has been broken for all descendants of slaves.

The descendants were making progress on breaking the cycle of poverty until the Democratic Great Society programs killed marriage in the black community.

For whatever reason, we just aren't there yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you posters who are insisting that minorities admitted to competitive schools with lower grades and scores than white and Asian students do just as well, be realistic. In what universe would you put a crop of B- stidents in with straight A students, and not expect the former group to struggle to keep up with the latter group?

I've worked in the industry. I can tell you that that a high percentage of the minorities admitted under the lesser AA standards require a lot of tutoring to stay in the program. (Competitive universities invest a lot in keeping the AA students in their programs since they want to keep the drop-out rate low.) By comparison, the minorities who would have gained admission under the standard guidelines, which constitute about a third of minorities. do not need extra tutoring to keep from failing. As one would expect. After all, they were "equal" in terms of grades and test scores as the non-minority students.

Stanford had to create a couple of “physics for dummies” type courses to boost retention of URM students. Is that really the way AA is supposed to work? Pretty pathetic.

Yes, and I've heard black graduates complain that people wonder if they got in - and through - on their own, or whether lesser standards applied. Well. You can't have it both ways. If you lower standards to admit minorities who otherwise would have been rejected, every minority will then be suspected of getting in because of lesser standards.

The people who suffer, beyond the whites who are outright rejected, are the minorities who would have gotten in on their own. If a school has an entering class of 2000 students, 10% of whom are black (200), approximately 70 of them qualified under the "white standard." Approximately 130 would have had to go to a lesser school, if equal standards were applied.

The other ones who suffer are the many excellent Asian Americans who are rejected because according to the racial/ PC police they are "overrepresented."

Get off the cross we need the wood. Apply to a different school. Move on. Be smart and take a full scholarship instead of taking high yielding money out of a lucrative market. Harvard is ONE school.

DP. So why can't the minorities admitted to Harvard under lower standards apply to a different school? Why do the Asians have to go to the lesser school when their grades and scores were higher?

Because their spots were taken by legacies and athletes?

No, their spots were taken by black students with much lower grades and test scores.

Much lower than the athletes? Really?

DP. Yes, blacks get the largest handicaps followed by latinos, athletes and legacies. The data are all there if you care to look.

Link?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you posters who are insisting that minorities admitted to competitive schools with lower grades and scores than white and Asian students do just as well, be realistic. In what universe would you put a crop of B- stidents in with straight A students, and not expect the former group to struggle to keep up with the latter group?

I've worked in the industry. I can tell you that that a high percentage of the minorities admitted under the lesser AA standards require a lot of tutoring to stay in the program. (Competitive universities invest a lot in keeping the AA students in their programs since they want to keep the drop-out rate low.) By comparison, the minorities who would have gained admission under the standard guidelines, which constitute about a third of minorities. do not need extra tutoring to keep from failing. As one would expect. After all, they were "equal" in terms of grades and test scores as the non-minority students.

Stanford had to create a couple of “physics for dummies” type courses to boost retention of URM students. Is that really the way AA is supposed to work? Pretty pathetic.

Yes, and I've heard black graduates complain that people wonder if they got in - and through - on their own, or whether lesser standards applied. Well. You can't have it both ways. If you lower standards to admit minorities who otherwise would have been rejected, every minority will then be suspected of getting in because of lesser standards.

The people who suffer, beyond the whites who are outright rejected, are the minorities who would have gotten in on their own. If a school has an entering class of 2000 students, 10% of whom are black (200), approximately 70 of them qualified under the "white standard." Approximately 130 would have had to go to a lesser school, if equal standards were applied.

The other ones who suffer are the many excellent Asian Americans who are rejected because according to the racial/ PC police they are "overrepresented."

Get off the cross we need the wood. Apply to a different school. Move on. Be smart and take a full scholarship instead of taking high yielding money out of a lucrative market. Harvard is ONE school.

DP. So why can't the minorities admitted to Harvard under lower standards apply to a different school? Why do the Asians have to go to the lesser school when their grades and scores were higher?

Because their spots were taken by legacies and athletes?

No, their spots were taken by black students with much lower grades and test scores.

scores

Much lower than the athletes? Really?

DP. Yes, blacks get the largest handicaps followed by latinos, athletes and legacies. The data are all there if you care to look.

It's true about the stats. The organization that produces the med school admission test has some very telling data on its website. The average grades and test scores for blacks admitted to med school are significantly lower for blacks than whites. There is no way in he!! that a kid with a 3.2 average in college is getting into med school - unless he's black.

My friend's son had a high test score and a 3.7 average - but it wasn't good enough to get into med school....any med school. (And he didn't have it easy: His father died when he was 12 and his mother raised him on a single income.) In the meantime, black kids with not much more than a B average and substantially lower scores get accepted.

Yes, it's tough to get into med school. He should have studied harder instead of bitching about a handful of spots that go to URMs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you posters who are insisting that minorities admitted to competitive schools with lower grades and scores than white and Asian students do just as well, be realistic. In what universe would you put a crop of B- stidents in with straight A students, and not expect the former group to struggle to keep up with the latter group?

I've worked in the industry. I can tell you that that a high percentage of the minorities admitted under the lesser AA standards require a lot of tutoring to stay in the program. (Competitive universities invest a lot in keeping the AA students in their programs since they want to keep the drop-out rate low.) By comparison, the minorities who would have gained admission under the standard guidelines, which constitute about a third of minorities. do not need extra tutoring to keep from failing. As one would expect. After all, they were "equal" in terms of grades and test scores as the non-minority students.

Stanford had to create a couple of “physics for dummies” type courses to boost retention of URM students. Is that really the way AA is supposed to work? Pretty pathetic.

Yes, and I've heard black graduates complain that people wonder if they got in - and through - on their own, or whether lesser standards applied. Well. You can't have it both ways. If you lower standards to admit minorities who otherwise would have been rejected, every minority will then be suspected of getting in because of lesser standards.

The people who suffer, beyond the whites who are outright rejected, are the minorities who would have gotten in on their own. If a school has an entering class of 2000 students, 10% of whom are black (200), approximately 70 of them qualified under the "white standard." Approximately 130 would have had to go to a lesser school, if equal standards were applied.

The other ones who suffer are the many excellent Asian Americans who are rejected because according to the racial/ PC police they are "overrepresented."

Get off the cross we need the wood. Apply to a different school. Move on. Be smart and take a full scholarship instead of taking high yielding money out of a lucrative market. Harvard is ONE school.

DP. So why can't the minorities admitted to Harvard under lower standards apply to a different school? Why do the Asians have to go to the lesser school when their grades and scores were higher?

Because their spots were taken by legacies and athletes?

No, their spots were taken by black students with much lower grades and test scores.

Much lower than the athletes? Really?

DP. Yes, blacks get the largest handicaps followed by latinos, athletes and legacies. The data are all there if you care to look.

Ah no. Athletes and legacies have the greatest handicap. After all, those two cohorts bring in billions of dollars to the school in donations and tv rights.

[Anonymous]

The flood of white tears in this thread is amazing. Of all the problems minority kids face today, this is what you guys cry about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you posters who are insisting that minorities admitted to competitive schools with lower grades and scores than white and Asian students do just as well, be realistic. In what universe would you put a crop of B- stidents in with straight A students, and not expect the former group to struggle to keep up with the latter group?

I've worked in the industry. I can tell you that that a high percentage of the minorities admitted under the lesser AA standards require a lot of tutoring to stay in the program. (Competitive universities invest a lot in keeping the AA students in their programs since they want to keep the drop-out rate low.) By comparison, the minorities who would have gained admission under the standard guidelines, which constitute about a third of minorities. do not need extra tutoring to keep from failing. As one would expect. After all, they were "equal" in terms of grades and test scores as the non-minority students.

Stanford had to create a couple of “physics for dummies” type courses to boost retention of URM students. Is that really the way AA is supposed to work? Pretty pathetic.

Yes, and I've heard black graduates complain that people wonder if they got in - and through - on their own, or whether lesser standards applied. Well. You can't have it both ways. If you lower standards to admit minorities who otherwise would have been rejected, every minority will then be suspected of getting in because of lesser standards.

The people who suffer, beyond the whites who are outright rejected, are the minorities who would have gotten in on their own. If a school has an entering class of 2000 students, 10% of whom are black (200), approximately 70 of them qualified under the "white standard." Approximately 130 would have had to go to a lesser school, if equal standards were applied.

The other ones who suffer are the many excellent Asian Americans who are rejected because according to the racial/ PC police they are "overrepresented."

Get off the cross we need the wood. Apply to a different school. Move on. Be smart and take a full scholarship instead of taking high yielding money out of a lucrative market. Harvard is ONE school.

DP. So why can't the minorities admitted to Harvard under lower standards apply to a different school? Why do the Asians have to go to the lesser school when their grades and scores were higher?

Because their spots were taken by legacies and athletes?

No, their spots were taken by black students with much lower grades and test scores.

scores

Much lower than the athletes? Really?

DP. Yes, blacks get the largest handicaps followed by latinos, athletes and legacies. The data are all there if you care to look.

It's true about the stats. The organization that produces the med school admission test has some very telling data on its website. The average grades and test scores for blacks admitted to med school are significantly lower for blacks than whites. There is no way in he!! that a kid with a 3.2 average in college is getting into med school - unless he's black.

My friend's son had a high test score and a 3.7 average - but it wasn't good enough to get into med school....any med school. (And he didn't have it easy: His father died when he was 12 and his mother raised him on a single income.) In the meantime, black kids with not much more than a B average and substantially lower scores get accepted.

Yes, it's tough to get into med school. He should have studied harder instead of bitching about a handful of spots that go to URMs.

Or, they should stop rejecting A- white kids in favor of B black kids, who then need extensive tutoring to maintain pace with their better qualified peers. med school is tough! No wonder the B students admitted under AA struggle through.

Or at least the black kids and their parents should be appreciative of the fact that they were given better students' spots because the rejected white kids were the wrong color. Instead, we have entitled black people telling them to quit bitching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The flood of white tears in this thread is amazing. Of all the problems minority kids face today, this is what you guys cry about.

The disdain for white folks in this thread, who lose college seats to those less qualified, is amazing. I wonder if the bigota going on about "white trash" are black?

And being kept out of med school, a lifelong dream, so that a lesser scoring minority gets in instead of you is a big deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you posters who are insisting that minorities admitted to competitive schools with lower grades and scores than white and Asian students do just as well, be realistic. In what universe would you put a crop of B- stidents in with straight A students, and not expect the former group to struggle to keep up with the latter group?

I've worked in the industry. I can tell you that that a high percentage of the minorities admitted under the lesser AA standards require a lot of tutoring to stay in the program. (Competitive universities invest a lot in keeping the AA students in their programs since they want to keep the drop-out rate low.) By comparison, the minorities who would have gained admission under the standard guidelines, which constitute about a third of minorities. do not need extra tutoring to keep from failing. As one would expect. After all, they were "equal" in terms of grades and test scores as the non-minority students.

Stanford had to create a couple of “physics for dummies” type courses to boost retention of URM students. Is that really the way AA is supposed to work? Pretty pathetic.

Yes, and I've heard black graduates complain that people wonder if they got in - and through - on their own, or whether lesser standards applied. Well. You can't have it both ways. If you lower standards to admit minorities who otherwise would have been rejected, every minority will then be suspected of getting in because of lesser standards.

The people who suffer, beyond the whites who are outright rejected, are the minorities who would have gotten in on their own. If a school has an entering class of 2000 students, 10% of whom are black (200), approximately 70 of them qualified under the "white standard." Approximately 130 would have had to go to a lesser school, if equal standards were applied.

The other ones who suffer are the many excellent Asian Americans who are rejected because according to the racial/ PC police they are "overrepresented."

Get off the cross we need the wood. Apply to a different school. Move on. Be smart and take a full scholarship instead of taking high yielding money out of a lucrative market. Harvard is ONE school.

DP. So why can't the minorities admitted to Harvard under lower standards apply to a different school? Why do the Asians have to go to the lesser school when their grades and scores were higher?

Because their spots were taken by legacies and athletes?

No, their spots were taken by black students with much lower grades and test scores.

Much lower than the athletes? Really?

DP. Yes, blacks get the largest handicaps followed by latinos, athletes and legacies. The data are all there if you care to look.

Ah no. Athletes and legacies have the greatest handicap. After all, those two cohorts bring in billions of dollars to the school in donations and tv rights.

You’re wrong and a bit dense....there’s ample data on this topic. I also don’t understand why black people deny the significant handicaps they receive....that is the heart of what AA is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. Absolutely not.

Poor white people, poor white trash as we call them in my house growing up, still have all the advantages of being white.

It's nonsense to pretend otherwise.

Agree

Agree that you call people poor white trash. How noble of you Casper.