How are you preparing your DD to protect herself?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP above and I forgot to add that I was sexually assaulted multiple times in my late teens and 20s and didn’t even fully understand it was sexual assault until the last time (when I pressed charges and was ready to testify until last-minute plea deal). That’s why I have started so early with DD.

I’m sorry this happened to you.
I’m not really understanding a sexual assault that you “didn’t really understand was sexual assault” until it happened to you several times.
Obviously that sounds horrific. Very confusing though for the guy as well if he also didn’t realize that it was against your will? Just trying to figure out how that is communicated after the fact so that he is also aware that you now realize it was sexual assault.

I am not PP but a lot of people think it isn't assault if it isn't violent rape. Too drunk to consent, froze up, groped but no penetration - lots of people wrongly think these are not assault.

How is the guy going to know that you don’t want it if you don’t say no.

Unless she clearly says yes, it should not proceed. PERIOD. My friends with boys are teaching their boys this.

If they are drinking to the point of drunk and unable to consent it shoudl not go forward.

Boys aren't animals. It's time we stop treating them like they are not capable of knowing when there is consent.

It’s well past time to stop teaching girls that they can’t use their words. Stop infantilizing women and girls. Don’t teach your daughters that her safety is anyone’s responsibility but her own, for starters.

Nope. If she is drunk or roofied or scared, it's not OK to have sex with her. Yes it would be better if she hadn't got in that situation but the partner who proceeds without consent is responsible for that choice he is making. Stop acting like men can't help themselves. And stop acting like the goal should be anything except enthusiastic participation.

No one is saying it’s okay to rape someone so come off it.

You’re talking about teaching your daughter that it’s not her fault after she’s been victimized. Meanwhile, I’ll continue teaching my daughter how to drastically reduce her chances of being victimized in the first place.

It’s magical thinking to imagine that your daughter will someday live in world where no man will sexually assault her if she gets blackout drunk at a random party, because finally someone taught all those darn rapists that they’re not allowed to do that!

Seriously, do you hear yourself?

You responded to a thread about someone's actual assault, and about how a man could possibly know a woman didn't consent. Your response was "stop teaching girls that they can't use their words." Do you hear yourself?

The post directly above yours was about someone too drunk to consent. Is that ideal? No. Should you teach your DD not to get drunk like that, especially with people she doesn't know or trust? Of course, that's a great thing to teach. AND ALSO teach boys, and expect boys, not to have sex with someone who is too drunk to consent, regardless of whether she says no. Boys absolutely have responsibility for what they do with their own bodies and whether they choose to have sex with someone who didn't clearly consent.

Stop.Being.Stupid.

You can’t control what other people do or don’t teach their sons. Just like you can’t control whether or not your son gives a sh!t. Worry about teaching your daughter to protect herself and not to rely on the kindness of strangers. The only person she can count on to watch out for her safety is herself.

Stop.Infantilizing.Girls.

You are revolting and offensive. It is not "infantilizing" girls to expect boys to respect women. To gain consent. To learn to accept no. I'm all for teaching girls about risks but that has been going on for generations. It's time for BOYS and parents of boys to play a role here. Failing to do that is infantilizing boys, if anything.

And that’s not going to do a damn thing for your daughter, because you can’t control what boys do. You’re failing, mom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t considering one experience “harassment”

Be is from cat calling in a street, a random comment at a party, a homeless man exposing himself on the street. Perhaps it meets the definition, but this shouldn’t be traumatizing. Just move on.

Harassment is if the same person repeatedly gives you unwanted attention after you have explicitly told them to stop.

I think this is interesting. I used to really think this and believe this and didn't really even register all the small things men did. The guy at work who blatantly looks you up and down in a lewd manner and makes a comment. The guy at work who puts both his hands on your shoulders while talking to you "make a point". The guy at the regular coffee shop you go to who comes out from the back to stare every time you are in line so eventually you just go to another coffee shop. Unwelcome looks, touches, comments. All of these are actual examples and I have so many more. I'm sure we all do. I had a guy witness one of these things and he acknowledged it later and asked me if I was okay. I was stunned. We all just harden ourselves to it and don't even speak up or think twice about it. It's sad really.

We have been conditioned to accept a certain amount of sexual harassment as just part of life. That’s why some of these women say they’ve never been harassed. They’ve overlooked things because “boys willl be boys,” and it’s just something everyone lives with. Just this very morning, my teenaged dd told me that when she was in 6th grade, she complained to the male gym teacher that a couple male classmates were saying they wanted to touch her tits. He told her that boys are just going to say stupid things and it’s only a problem if they actually touch you. This was 5 years ago, post Me Too.

Yep agree. I call BS on the “never experienced “ posters. I have no doubt they believe it and maybe a rare minority really have not. But that is in large part bc we are conditioned to accept the smaller slights, harassment, and disrespect.

I don't think it's that we accept these things. We just don't actually call every offender out every time. Many of the incidents people are talking about in this post are one-time occurrences from strangers in bars, walking down the street, on a bus or train, etc. I'm not going to get into a confrontation with these guys and I would not encourage my daughter to, either. These days, yes, it would be great if more of the incidents are called out when it's feasible and safe to do so -- like the example a previous commenter gave about the bus masturbator and the woman taking the young girl to a seat by the driver and telling the driver what was going on.

It's not that we're "accepting" the minor slights and disrespect - we endure them and move on. Continual offenses in the same environment or by the same individual are different and are absolutely more likely to be called out and not tolerated.

Agreed. You don’t need to “call out” every offense, sexual (if non violent, etc) or otherwise. Just move on. Do you call out every offense thing anyone has ever said to you? It’s fine to just move on if it’s an isolated incident by someone you aren’t in regular contact with.

I really don’t see what exactly there is to “prepare” our daughters for. Be smart and use common sense. If someone is making you uncomfortable, leave or get help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP above and I forgot to add that I was sexually assaulted multiple times in my late teens and 20s and didn’t even fully understand it was sexual assault until the last time (when I pressed charges and was ready to testify until last-minute plea deal). That’s why I have started so early with DD.

I’m sorry this happened to you.
I’m not really understanding a sexual assault that you “didn’t really understand was sexual assault” until it happened to you several times.
Obviously that sounds horrific. Very confusing though for the guy as well if he also didn’t realize that it was against your will? Just trying to figure out how that is communicated after the fact so that he is also aware that you now realize it was sexual assault.

I am not PP but a lot of people think it isn't assault if it isn't violent rape. Too drunk to consent, froze up, groped but no penetration - lots of people wrongly think these are not assault.

How is the guy going to know that you don’t want it if you don’t say no.

Unless she clearly says yes, it should not proceed. PERIOD. My friends with boys are teaching their boys this.

If they are drinking to the point of drunk and unable to consent it shoudl not go forward.

Boys aren't animals. It's time we stop treating them like they are not capable of knowing when there is consent.

It’s well past time to stop teaching girls that they can’t use their words. Stop infantilizing women and girls. Don’t teach your daughters that her safety is anyone’s responsibility but her own, for starters.

Nope. If she is drunk or roofied or scared, it's not OK to have sex with her. Yes it would be better if she hadn't got in that situation but the partner who proceeds without consent is responsible for that choice he is making. Stop acting like men can't help themselves. And stop acting like the goal should be anything except enthusiastic participation.

No one is saying it’s okay to rape someone so come off it.

You’re talking about teaching your daughter that it’s not her fault after she’s been victimized. Meanwhile, I’ll continue teaching my daughter how to drastically reduce her chances of being victimized in the first place.

It’s magical thinking to imagine that your daughter will someday live in world where no man will sexually assault her if she gets blackout drunk at a random party, because finally someone taught all those darn rapists that they’re not allowed to do that!

Seriously, do you hear yourself?

You responded to a thread about someone's actual assault, and about how a man could possibly know a woman didn't consent. Your response was "stop teaching girls that they can't use their words." Do you hear yourself?

The post directly above yours was about someone too drunk to consent. Is that ideal? No. Should you teach your DD not to get drunk like that, especially with people she doesn't know or trust? Of course, that's a great thing to teach. AND ALSO teach boys, and expect boys, not to have sex with someone who is too drunk to consent, regardless of whether she says no. Boys absolutely have responsibility for what they do with their own bodies and whether they choose to have sex with someone who didn't clearly consent.

Stop.Being.Stupid.

You can’t control what other people do or don’t teach their sons. Just like you can’t control whether or not your son gives a sh!t. Worry about teaching your daughter to protect herself and not to rely on the kindness of strangers. The only person she can count on to watch out for her safety is herself.

Stop.Infantilizing.Girls.

You are revolting and offensive. It is not "infantilizing" girls to expect boys to respect women. To gain consent. To learn to accept no. I'm all for teaching girls about risks but that has been going on for generations. It's time for BOYS and parents of boys to play a role here. Failing to do that is infantilizing boys, if anything.

+1000 Precisely right, it is an "and" situation.

Teach your daughters AND teach your sons. This problem doesn't improve unless there is greater awareness and broad teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP above and I forgot to add that I was sexually assaulted multiple times in my late teens and 20s and didn’t even fully understand it was sexual assault until the last time (when I pressed charges and was ready to testify until last-minute plea deal). That’s why I have started so early with DD.

I’m sorry this happened to you.
I’m not really understanding a sexual assault that you “didn’t really understand was sexual assault” until it happened to you several times.
Obviously that sounds horrific. Very confusing though for the guy as well if he also didn’t realize that it was against your will? Just trying to figure out how that is communicated after the fact so that he is also aware that you now realize it was sexual assault.

I am not PP but a lot of people think it isn't assault if it isn't violent rape. Too drunk to consent, froze up, groped but no penetration - lots of people wrongly think these are not assault.

How is the guy going to know that you don’t want it if you don’t say no.

Unless she clearly says yes, it should not proceed. PERIOD. My friends with boys are teaching their boys this.

If they are drinking to the point of drunk and unable to consent it shoudl not go forward.

Boys aren't animals. It's time we stop treating them like they are not capable of knowing when there is consent.

It’s well past time to stop teaching girls that they can’t use their words. Stop infantilizing women and girls. Don’t teach your daughters that her safety is anyone’s responsibility but her own, for starters.

Nope. If she is drunk or roofied or scared, it's not OK to have sex with her. Yes it would be better if she hadn't got in that situation but the partner who proceeds without consent is responsible for that choice he is making. Stop acting like men can't help themselves. And stop acting like the goal should be anything except enthusiastic participation.

No one is saying it’s okay to rape someone so come off it.

You’re talking about teaching your daughter that it’s not her fault after she’s been victimized. Meanwhile, I’ll continue teaching my daughter how to drastically reduce her chances of being victimized in the first place.

It’s magical thinking to imagine that your daughter will someday live in world where no man will sexually assault her if she gets blackout drunk at a random party, because finally someone taught all those darn rapists that they’re not allowed to do that!

Seriously, do you hear yourself?

You responded to a thread about someone's actual assault, and about how a man could possibly know a woman didn't consent. Your response was "stop teaching girls that they can't use their words." Do you hear yourself?

The post directly above yours was about someone too drunk to consent. Is that ideal? No. Should you teach your DD not to get drunk like that, especially with people she doesn't know or trust? Of course, that's a great thing to teach. AND ALSO teach boys, and expect boys, not to have sex with someone who is too drunk to consent, regardless of whether she says no. Boys absolutely have responsibility for what they do with their own bodies and whether they choose to have sex with someone who didn't clearly consent.

Stop.Being.Stupid.

You can’t control what other people do or don’t teach their sons. Just like you can’t control whether or not your son gives a sh!t. Worry about teaching your daughter to protect herself and not to rely on the kindness of strangers. The only person she can count on to watch out for her safety is herself.

Stop.Infantilizing.Girls.

You are revolting and offensive. It is not "infantilizing" girls to expect boys to respect women. To gain consent. To learn to accept no. I'm all for teaching girls about risks but that has been going on for generations. It's time for BOYS and parents of boys to play a role here. Failing to do that is infantilizing boys, if anything.

And that’s not going to do a damn thing for your daughter, because you can’t control what boys do. You’re failing, mom.

Disagree. I'm teaching my daughter to have high standards for the people she allows into her life. That doesn't mean she assumes everyone is good and safe, or takes stupid chances. It means, I hope, that she'll spurn people who don't think they have an obligation to others, and it means she can articulate her expectations of an SO or friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a 52 year old mom of two daughters 18 and 20.

None of us have ever had to deal with sexual harassment. Calm down.

Same.

Same here. I think it makes 5 of us on this thread so far. I was beautiful in my teens/20s/30s and always dated very attractive, successful men (and then married one --a physician). But I was never really harassed--not even really cat called.

I don't really exude sexuality or vulnerability. I've never dressed provocatively or even very femininely. I'm not saying that women should change their dress to avoid harassment but I've always wondered why I never got harassed why other women say they were continually and I assume it must have had something to do with my clothing. I otherwise don't know.

I think people have different tolerances and perceptions of "sexual harassment."
For example, some people with heightened sensitivities today can find traditional/innocent flirtations "harassing." Some are fine with those same "flirtations" - if it's someone they like/are interested in; but consider it harassment if it comes from someone they don't want the attention from.
Then there are some who probably don't consider one construction worker whistling as they walk by a construction site one time to be harassment, whereas another woman would. Or being leered at - harassment? or just creepy?

Given that 1 in 5 women have been raped and it is hard to judge the age of others, not to mention a large portion of women do *not* appreciate catcalling, the appropriate amount of catcalling is zero.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP above and I forgot to add that I was sexually assaulted multiple times in my late teens and 20s and didn’t even fully understand it was sexual assault until the last time (when I pressed charges and was ready to testify until last-minute plea deal). That’s why I have started so early with DD.

I’m sorry this happened to you.
I’m not really understanding a sexual assault that you “didn’t really understand was sexual assault” until it happened to you several times.
Obviously that sounds horrific. Very confusing though for the guy as well if he also didn’t realize that it was against your will? Just trying to figure out how that is communicated after the fact so that he is also aware that you now realize it was sexual assault.

I am not PP but a lot of people think it isn't assault if it isn't violent rape. Too drunk to consent, froze up, groped but no penetration - lots of people wrongly think these are not assault.

How is the guy going to know that you don’t want it if you don’t say no.

Unless she clearly says yes, it should not proceed. PERIOD. My friends with boys are teaching their boys this.

If they are drinking to the point of drunk and unable to consent it shoudl not go forward.

Boys aren't animals. It's time we stop treating them like they are not capable of knowing when there is consent.

It’s well past time to stop teaching girls that they can’t use their words. Stop infantilizing women and girls. Don’t teach your daughters that her safety is anyone’s responsibility but her own, for starters.

Nope. If she is drunk or roofied or scared, it's not OK to have sex with her. Yes it would be better if she hadn't got in that situation but the partner who proceeds without consent is responsible for that choice he is making. Stop acting like men can't help themselves. And stop acting like the goal should be anything except enthusiastic participation.

No one is saying it’s okay to rape someone so come off it.

You’re talking about teaching your daughter that it’s not her fault after she’s been victimized. Meanwhile, I’ll continue teaching my daughter how to drastically reduce her chances of being victimized in the first place.

It’s magical thinking to imagine that your daughter will someday live in world where no man will sexually assault her if she gets blackout drunk at a random party, because finally someone taught all those darn rapists that they’re not allowed to do that!

Seriously, do you hear yourself?

You responded to a thread about someone's actual assault, and about how a man could possibly know a woman didn't consent. Your response was "stop teaching girls that they can't use their words." Do you hear yourself?

The post directly above yours was about someone too drunk to consent. Is that ideal? No. Should you teach your DD not to get drunk like that, especially with people she doesn't know or trust? Of course, that's a great thing to teach. AND ALSO teach boys, and expect boys, not to have sex with someone who is too drunk to consent, regardless of whether she says no. Boys absolutely have responsibility for what they do with their own bodies and whether they choose to have sex with someone who didn't clearly consent.

Stop.Being.Stupid.

You can’t control what other people do or don’t teach their sons. Just like you can’t control whether or not your son gives a sh!t. Worry about teaching your daughter to protect herself and not to rely on the kindness of strangers. The only person she can count on to watch out for her safety is herself.

Stop.Infantilizing.Girls.

You are revolting and offensive. It is not "infantilizing" girls to expect boys to respect women. To gain consent. To learn to accept no. I'm all for teaching girls about risks but that has been going on for generations. It's time for BOYS and parents of boys to play a role here. Failing to do that is infantilizing boys, if anything.

And that’s not going to do a damn thing for your daughter, because you can’t control what boys do. You’re failing, mom.

Culture matters. Socialization and normalization of what is normal and acceptable behavior matters

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a 52 year old mom of two daughters 18 and 20.

None of us have ever had to deal with sexual harassment. Calm down.

Same.

Same here. I think it makes 5 of us on this thread so far. I was beautiful in my teens/20s/30s and always dated very attractive, successful men (and then married one --a physician). But I was never really harassed--not even really cat called.

I don't really exude sexuality or vulnerability. I've never dressed provocatively or even very femininely. I'm not saying that women should change their dress to avoid harassment but I've always wondered why I never got harassed why other women say they were continually and I assume it must have had something to do with my clothing. I otherwise don't know.

I think people have different tolerances and perceptions of "sexual harassment."
For example, some people with heightened sensitivities today can find traditional/innocent flirtations "harassing." Some are fine with those same "flirtations" - if it's someone they like/are interested in; but consider it harassment if it comes from someone they don't want the attention from.
Then there are some who probably don't consider one construction worker whistling as they walk by a construction site one time to be harassment, whereas another woman would. Or being leered at - harassment? or just creepy?

Given that 1 in 5 women have been raped and it is hard to judge the age of others, not to mention a large portion of women do *not* appreciate catcalling, the appropriate amount of catcalling is zero.

Bring violently and forcefully raped is rare. Majority of these so called rape incidents are just regret or being too intoxicated to properly consent. While not excusable, this is avoidable. You should never put yourself in a situation where you are physically unable to consent to sex, or driving or whom you are with or the events going on around you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP above and I forgot to add that I was sexually assaulted multiple times in my late teens and 20s and didn’t even fully understand it was sexual assault until the last time (when I pressed charges and was ready to testify until last-minute plea deal). That’s why I have started so early with DD.

I’m sorry this happened to you.
I’m not really understanding a sexual assault that you “didn’t really understand was sexual assault” until it happened to you several times.
Obviously that sounds horrific. Very confusing though for the guy as well if he also didn’t realize that it was against your will? Just trying to figure out how that is communicated after the fact so that he is also aware that you now realize it was sexual assault.

I am not PP but a lot of people think it isn't assault if it isn't violent rape. Too drunk to consent, froze up, groped but no penetration - lots of people wrongly think these are not assault.

How is the guy going to know that you don’t want it if you don’t say no.

Let me get this straight, the mere label of "girlfriend" entitles a male to grope a boob?

Unless she clearly says yes, it should not proceed. PERIOD. My friends with boys are teaching their boys this.

If they are drinking to the point of drunk and unable to consent it shoudl not go forward.

Boys aren't animals. It's time we stop treating them like they are not capable of knowing when there is consent.

It’s well past time to stop teaching girls that they can’t use their words. Stop infantilizing women and girls. Don’t teach your daughters that her safety is anyone’s responsibility but her own, for starters.

Gross!!! No I'm sorry, I'm just not going to accept the concept that women have to constantly shoot down advances and if they don't do so aggressively enough for the dumb h*rny male to understand she's giving him a blank check to rape her. Proposition declined. Thank you for illustrating the predatory male entitlement to sex though.

WTF are you on about? Your response is so disconnected from the post you replied to (and reality) that I suggest you might need to call a hotline of some variety.

You are saying men get to badger women for sex constantly and it is the woman's responsibility to say no. It is disgusting. You might be on a list of some kind.

That is not at all what was said. You are completely unhinged.

"It’s well past time to stop teaching girls that they can’t use their words. Stop infantilizing women and girls. Don’t teach your daughters that her safety is anyone’s responsibility but her own, for starters."
You are explicitly saying men are entitled to peddle their d--- and its on the woman to say no. Stop gaslighting.

I don’t even know what “peddle their d—-“ is supposed to mean. Use your big girl words.

"Hey baby how you doin?"
"I've never seen a girl as beautiful as you, can I have your number?"
"Do you have a boyfriend"

This is all d--- peddling. An invitation to sex. Women should not have to constantly push away advances for sex for the sin of being a reproductive aged woman in a public space

I see. Yes, all of those statements are allowed. They might be annoying and unwelcome, but there is nothing remotely harmful to the person on the receiving end.

I mean, think of the many people who are forced to interact with *you* every day. I can’t imagine many people don’t find your unhinged pseudo-feminist ranting annoying and unwelcome, but you’re not actually harming anyone and you certainly aren’t assaulting them!

There's a lot of confusion through this whole thread about what harassment is. Unwelcome advances are harassment, regardless of whether anyone was harmed or traumatized or sad. It doesn't have to ruin your week in order to be harassment.

And no, calling out to someone on the street to ask if she has a boyfriend is not "starting a conversation." It's harassment. If you actually wanted to have a conversation, that's not how you'd do it and everyone knows that.

Somebody actually said you can grope a boob and if a woman says no and pulls away the boob grope wasn't assault. OP should have her DD read this thread!

Well, context matters. If some random guy walks by and grabs your boob, sure that’s assault. If you’re making out with your boyfriend and he moves his hand to your boob, and doesn’t try it again after you push it away, that’s not assault. That’s just normal escalation of sexual behavior between partners.

Are you really this dense?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP above and I forgot to add that I was sexually assaulted multiple times in my late teens and 20s and didn’t even fully understand it was sexual assault until the last time (when I pressed charges and was ready to testify until last-minute plea deal). That’s why I have started so early with DD.

I’m sorry this happened to you.
I’m not really understanding a sexual assault that you “didn’t really understand was sexual assault” until it happened to you several times.
Obviously that sounds horrific. Very confusing though for the guy as well if he also didn’t realize that it was against your will? Just trying to figure out how that is communicated after the fact so that he is also aware that you now realize it was sexual assault.

I am not PP but a lot of people think it isn't assault if it isn't violent rape. Too drunk to consent, froze up, groped but no penetration - lots of people wrongly think these are not assault.

How is the guy going to know that you don’t want it if you don’t say no.

Unless she clearly says yes, it should not proceed. PERIOD. My friends with boys are teaching their boys this.

If they are drinking to the point of drunk and unable to consent it shoudl not go forward.

Boys aren't animals. It's time we stop treating them like they are not capable of knowing when there is consent.

It’s well past time to stop teaching girls that they can’t use their words. Stop infantilizing women and girls. Don’t teach your daughters that her safety is anyone’s responsibility but her own, for starters.

Nope. If she is drunk or roofied or scared, it's not OK to have sex with her. Yes it would be better if she hadn't got in that situation but the partner who proceeds without consent is responsible for that choice he is making. Stop acting like men can't help themselves. And stop acting like the goal should be anything except enthusiastic participation.

No one is saying it’s okay to rape someone so come off it.

You’re talking about teaching your daughter that it’s not her fault after she’s been victimized. Meanwhile, I’ll continue teaching my daughter how to drastically reduce her chances of being victimized in the first place.

It’s magical thinking to imagine that your daughter will someday live in world where no man will sexually assault her if she gets blackout drunk at a random party, because finally someone taught all those darn rapists that they’re not allowed to do that!

Seriously, do you hear yourself?

You responded to a thread about someone's actual assault, and about how a man could possibly know a woman didn't consent. Your response was "stop teaching girls that they can't use their words." Do you hear yourself?

The post directly above yours was about someone too drunk to consent. Is that ideal? No. Should you teach your DD not to get drunk like that, especially with people she doesn't know or trust? Of course, that's a great thing to teach. AND ALSO teach boys, and expect boys, not to have sex with someone who is too drunk to consent, regardless of whether she says no. Boys absolutely have responsibility for what they do with their own bodies and whether they choose to have sex with someone who didn't clearly consent.

Stop.Being.Stupid.

You can’t control what other people do or don’t teach their sons. Just like you can’t control whether or not your son gives a sh!t. Worry about teaching your daughter to protect herself and not to rely on the kindness of strangers. The only person she can count on to watch out for her safety is herself.

Stop.Infantilizing.Girls.

You are revolting and offensive. It is not "infantilizing" girls to expect boys to respect women. To gain consent. To learn to accept no. I'm all for teaching girls about risks but that has been going on for generations. It's time for BOYS and parents of boys to play a role here. Failing to do that is infantilizing boys, if anything.

And that’s not going to do a damn thing for your daughter, because you can’t control what boys do. You’re failing, mom.

Disagree. I'm teaching my daughter to have high standards for the people she allows into her life. That doesn't mean she assumes everyone is good and safe, or takes stupid chances. It means, I hope, that she'll spurn people who don't think they have an obligation to others, and it means she can articulate her expectations of an SO or friend.

Well that’s different than teaching her that all men and boys will be nice to her if only their mommies teach them better, isn’t it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a 52 year old mom of two daughters 18 and 20.

None of us have ever had to deal with sexual harassment. Calm down.

Same.

Same here. I think it makes 5 of us on this thread so far. I was beautiful in my teens/20s/30s and always dated very attractive, successful men (and then married one --a physician). But I was never really harassed--not even really cat called.

I don't really exude sexuality or vulnerability. I've never dressed provocatively or even very femininely. I'm not saying that women should change their dress to avoid harassment but I've always wondered why I never got harassed why other women say they were continually and I assume it must have had something to do with my clothing. I otherwise don't know.

I think people have different tolerances and perceptions of "sexual harassment."
For example, some people with heightened sensitivities today can find traditional/innocent flirtations "harassing." Some are fine with those same "flirtations" - if it's someone they like/are interested in; but consider it harassment if it comes from someone they don't want the attention from.
Then there are some who probably don't consider one construction worker whistling as they walk by a construction site one time to be harassment, whereas another woman would. Or being leered at - harassment? or just creepy?

Given that 1 in 5 women have been raped and it is hard to judge the age of others, not to mention a large portion of women do *not* appreciate catcalling, the appropriate amount of catcalling is zero.

Bring violently and forcefully raped is rare. Majority of these so called rape incidents are just regret or being too intoxicated to properly consent. While not excusable, this is avoidable. You should never put yourself in a situation where you are physically unable to consent to sex, or driving or whom you are with or the events going on around you.

You make me sick to my stomach. I am not a feminist at all. I am pretty culturally conservative. *HOWEVER* even I know most rape allegations are NOT false. A good portion are he said/she said situations that cannot be substantiated either way, however, that absolutely does not mean they are false, or "just" regret, or she was drunk so its not "real" rape, whatever the hell that means. True false rape allegations are single digits of the complaints. There is no evidence at all rape has a higher rate of false reports than any other crime. Quite the opposite, victims know they will immediately be judged and gaslighted (because of people like you) and 80% of rapes are not reported at all. There is no requirement that unwanted sexual contact include violence to be "rea" sexual assault. Even being totally unconscious and not having a memory of it, is that woman "entitled" to not have to entertain unwanted sexual advances after going through that experience? According to you? Why the f--- do women have to justify their preferences? Keep your d--- to yourself. Go on a dating website or hire an escort. You have no right to cold call peddle your d--- to every woman in sight. Just stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a 52 year old mom of two daughters 18 and 20.

None of us have ever had to deal with sexual harassment. Calm down.

Same.

Same here. I think it makes 5 of us on this thread so far. I was beautiful in my teens/20s/30s and always dated very attractive, successful men (and then married one --a physician). But I was never really harassed--not even really cat called.

I don't really exude sexuality or vulnerability. I've never dressed provocatively or even very femininely. I'm not saying that women should change their dress to avoid harassment but I've always wondered why I never got harassed why other women say they were continually and I assume it must have had something to do with my clothing. I otherwise don't know.

I think people have different tolerances and perceptions of "sexual harassment."
For example, some people with heightened sensitivities today can find traditional/innocent flirtations "harassing." Some are fine with those same "flirtations" - if it's someone they like/are interested in; but consider it harassment if it comes from someone they don't want the attention from.
Then there are some who probably don't consider one construction worker whistling as they walk by a construction site one time to be harassment, whereas another woman would. Or being leered at - harassment? or just creepy?

Given that 1 in 5 women have been raped and it is hard to judge the age of others, not to mention a large portion of women do *not* appreciate catcalling, the appropriate amount of catcalling is zero.

Bring violently and forcefully raped is rare. Majority of these so called rape incidents are just regret or being too intoxicated to properly consent. While not excusable, this is avoidable. You should never put yourself in a situation where you are physically unable to consent to sex, or driving or whom you are with or the events going on around you.

Your perception has been badly warped by rape culture. “So called rape incidents”? If a person is penetrated without their consent, that’s rape. Unless both parties consent, there should be no intentional physical contact between two people involving either one’s genitals. That’s either sexual assault or rape. People who are unconscious or asleep or who are minors cannot consent. Period. The overwhelming majority of rape accusations are actually rape.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t considering one experience “harassment”

Be is from cat calling in a street, a random comment at a party, a homeless man exposing himself on the street. Perhaps it meets the definition, but this shouldn’t be traumatizing. Just move on.

Harassment is if the same person repeatedly gives you unwanted attention after you have explicitly told them to stop.

I think this is interesting. I used to really think this and believe this and didn't really even register all the small things men did. The guy at work who blatantly looks you up and down in a lewd manner and makes a comment. The guy at work who puts both his hands on your shoulders while talking to you "make a point". The guy at the regular coffee shop you go to who comes out from the back to stare every time you are in line so eventually you just go to another coffee shop. Unwelcome looks, touches, comments. All of these are actual examples and I have so many more. I'm sure we all do. I had a guy witness one of these things and he acknowledged it later and asked me if I was okay. I was stunned. We all just harden ourselves to it and don't even speak up or think twice about it. It's sad really.

We have been conditioned to accept a certain amount of sexual harassment as just part of life. That’s why some of these women say they’ve never been harassed. They’ve overlooked things because “boys willl be boys,” and it’s just something everyone lives with. Just this very morning, my teenaged dd told me that when she was in 6th grade, she complained to the male gym teacher that a couple male classmates were saying they wanted to touch her tits. He told her that boys are just going to say stupid things and it’s only a problem if they actually touch you. This was 5 years ago, post Me Too.

Yep agree. I call BS on the “never experienced “ posters. I have no doubt they believe it and maybe a rare minority really have not. But that is in large part bc we are conditioned to accept the smaller slights, harassment, and disrespect.

I don't think it's that we accept these things. We just don't actually call every offender out every time. Many of the incidents people are talking about in this post are one-time occurrences from strangers in bars, walking down the street, on a bus or train, etc. I'm not going to get into a confrontation with these guys and I would not encourage my daughter to, either. These days, yes, it would be great if more of the incidents are called out when it's feasible and safe to do so -- like the example a previous commenter gave about the bus masturbator and the woman taking the young girl to a seat by the driver and telling the driver what was going on.

It's not that we're "accepting" the minor slights and disrespect - we endure them and move on. Continual offenses in the same environment or by the same individual are different and are absolutely more likely to be called out and not tolerated.

You say you’re not “accepting” being disrespected on the basis of your sex; you’re just enduring it and moving on without calling it out. That IS “accepting” it. You even admit that you don’t call these things out because it wouldn’t be safe to get into a confrontation with men who do it. That’s the conditioning that causes you to not to stand up for yourself. You know these men are doing it because they have a certain power over women. They’re bigger, they’re stronger, they’re more aggressive, and they’re not the least bit afraid of getting into a confrontation with you. You know that if you call them out, the situation may escalate and you might find yourself in actual physical danger.

The men who harass random women passing them on the street usually pay no price for that behavior, so it’s not discouraged. The women who are harassed know the men could potentially be real menaces, so they endure and endure and endure it some more, while rationalizing that that wasn’t really harassment because each of the guys only did it once or it was brief or perhaps their clothing or physical appearance provoked the men to it or it wasn’t that bad because it wasn’t scary (even though speaking up was deemed too dangerous for the situation).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a 52 year old mom of two daughters 18 and 20.

None of us have ever had to deal with sexual harassment. Calm down.

Same.

Same here. I think it makes 5 of us on this thread so far. I was beautiful in my teens/20s/30s and always dated very attractive, successful men (and then married one --a physician). But I was never really harassed--not even really cat called.

I don't really exude sexuality or vulnerability. I've never dressed provocatively or even very femininely. I'm not saying that women should change their dress to avoid harassment but I've always wondered why I never got harassed why other women say they were continually and I assume it must have had something to do with my clothing. I otherwise don't know.

I think people have different tolerances and perceptions of "sexual harassment."
For example, some people with heightened sensitivities today can find traditional/innocent flirtations "harassing." Some are fine with those same "flirtations" - if it's someone they like/are interested in; but consider it harassment if it comes from someone they don't want the attention from.
Then there are some who probably don't consider one construction worker whistling as they walk by a construction site one time to be harassment, whereas another woman would. Or being leered at - harassment? or just creepy?

Given that 1 in 5 women have been raped and it is hard to judge the age of others, not to mention a large portion of women do *not* appreciate catcalling, the appropriate amount of catcalling is zero.

Bring violently and forcefully raped is rare. Majority of these so called rape incidents are just regret or being too intoxicated to properly consent. While not excusable, this is avoidable. You should never put yourself in a situation where you are physically unable to consent to sex, or driving or whom you are with or the events going on around you.

You make me sick to my stomach. I am not a feminist at all. I am pretty culturally conservative. *HOWEVER* even I know most rape allegations are NOT false. A good portion are he said/she said situations that cannot be substantiated either way, however, that absolutely does not mean they are false, or "just" regret, or she was drunk so its not "real" rape, whatever the hell that means. True false rape allegations are single digits of the complaints. There is no evidence at all rape has a higher rate of false reports than any other crime. Quite the opposite, victims know they will immediately be judged and gaslighted (because of people like you) and 80% of rapes are not reported at all. There is no requirement that unwanted sexual contact include violence to be "rea" sexual assault. Even being totally unconscious and not having a memory of it, is that woman "entitled" to not have to entertain unwanted sexual advances after going through that experience? According to you? Why the f--- do women have to justify their preferences? Keep your d--- to yourself. Go on a dating website or hire an escort. You have no right to cold call peddle your d--- to every woman in sight. Just stop.

DP

If so many rape allegations are “he said/she said” (and therefore unprovable) how does it follow that you KNOW that “true” false rape accusations are rare?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP above and I forgot to add that I was sexually assaulted multiple times in my late teens and 20s and didn’t even fully understand it was sexual assault until the last time (when I pressed charges and was ready to testify until last-minute plea deal). That’s why I have started so early with DD.

I’m sorry this happened to you.
I’m not really understanding a sexual assault that you “didn’t really understand was sexual assault” until it happened to you several times.
Obviously that sounds horrific. Very confusing though for the guy as well if he also didn’t realize that it was against your will? Just trying to figure out how that is communicated after the fact so that he is also aware that you now realize it was sexual assault.

I am not PP but a lot of people think it isn't assault if it isn't violent rape. Too drunk to consent, froze up, groped but no penetration - lots of people wrongly think these are not assault.

How is the guy going to know that you don’t want it if you don’t say no.

Unless she clearly says yes, it should not proceed. PERIOD. My friends with boys are teaching their boys this.

If they are drinking to the point of drunk and unable to consent it shoudl not go forward.

Boys aren't animals. It's time we stop treating them like they are not capable of knowing when there is consent.

It’s well past time to stop teaching girls that they can’t use their words. Stop infantilizing women and girls. Don’t teach your daughters that her safety is anyone’s responsibility but her own, for starters.

Nope. If she is drunk or roofied or scared, it's not OK to have sex with her. Yes it would be better if she hadn't got in that situation but the partner who proceeds without consent is responsible for that choice he is making. Stop acting like men can't help themselves. And stop acting like the goal should be anything except enthusiastic participation.

No one is saying it’s okay to rape someone so come off it.

You’re talking about teaching your daughter that it’s not her fault after she’s been victimized. Meanwhile, I’ll continue teaching my daughter how to drastically reduce her chances of being victimized in the first place.

It’s magical thinking to imagine that your daughter will someday live in world where no man will sexually assault her if she gets blackout drunk at a random party, because finally someone taught all those darn rapists that they’re not allowed to do that!

Seriously, do you hear yourself?

You responded to a thread about someone's actual assault, and about how a man could possibly know a woman didn't consent. Your response was "stop teaching girls that they can't use their words." Do you hear yourself?

The post directly above yours was about someone too drunk to consent. Is that ideal? No. Should you teach your DD not to get drunk like that, especially with people she doesn't know or trust? Of course, that's a great thing to teach. AND ALSO teach boys, and expect boys, not to have sex with someone who is too drunk to consent, regardless of whether she says no. Boys absolutely have responsibility for what they do with their own bodies and whether they choose to have sex with someone who didn't clearly consent.

Stop.Being.Stupid.

You can’t control what other people do or don’t teach their sons. Just like you can’t control whether or not your son gives a sh!t. Worry about teaching your daughter to protect herself and not to rely on the kindness of strangers. The only person she can count on to watch out for her safety is herself.

Stop.Infantilizing.Girls.

You are revolting and offensive. It is not "infantilizing" girls to expect boys to respect women. To gain consent. To learn to accept no. I'm all for teaching girls about risks but that has been going on for generations. It's time for BOYS and parents of boys to play a role here. Failing to do that is infantilizing boys, if anything.

+1000 Precisely right, it is an "and" situation.

Teach your daughters AND teach your sons. This problem doesn't improve unless there is greater awareness and broad teaching.

And the alcohol?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a 52 year old mom of two daughters 18 and 20.

None of us have ever had to deal with sexual harassment. Calm down.

Same.

Same here. I think it makes 5 of us on this thread so far. I was beautiful in my teens/20s/30s and always dated very attractive, successful men (and then married one --a physician). But I was never really harassed--not even really cat called.

I don't really exude sexuality or vulnerability. I've never dressed provocatively or even very femininely. I'm not saying that women should change their dress to avoid harassment but I've always wondered why I never got harassed why other women say they were continually and I assume it must have had something to do with my clothing. I otherwise don't know.

I think people have different tolerances and perceptions of "sexual harassment."
For example, some people with heightened sensitivities today can find traditional/innocent flirtations "harassing." Some are fine with those same "flirtations" - if it's someone they like/are interested in; but consider it harassment if it comes from someone they don't want the attention from.
Then there are some who probably don't consider one construction worker whistling as they walk by a construction site one time to be harassment, whereas another woman would. Or being leered at - harassment? or just creepy?

Given that 1 in 5 women have been raped and it is hard to judge the age of others, not to mention a large portion of women do *not* appreciate catcalling, the appropriate amount of catcalling is zero.

I agree it is all entirely inappropriate. That doesn't meant it is all harassing.