Bill Maher explains the Middle East to Gen Z: Can anyone really dispute the facts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just had a chance to watch this and have a few questions to those who believe it presents facts:

1) do you accept that people of both Jewish and Palestinian descent share common ancestry from the Caanites who lived in the region prior to both the Jewish and Islamic faiths existed? If not, who you think that the ancestors of Palestinians are from”invaders”?

2) if you accept the U.N. designation of Israel’s borders when it was created, why do you not accept the current UN mandated border for the state of Israel.

Because that’s what it is to be a Zionist. Arrogantly picking and choosing what suits them.

You can apparently be an atheist who suddenly picks and chooses parts of the Bible you agree with and ignore the rest. And more audaciously, ignoring life before the Bible or religion; that’s some chutzpah from an atheist.

That’s why Maher has always been pathetic and a clown along with the countless other high profile atheists who all seem to be rabid Zionists as well. When people say he mocks all religions, that’s bullsh*t. He specifically mocks only the Jews who follow the Torah and say Israel is not even supposed to be created until the Messiah comes.

People need to really question their own intelligence if they thought this stupid segment sans any actual debate (like every single time he bloviates on this topic) was “fact-based.”

You are a perfect example of someone who doesn't want peace in Israel/Palestine. People who think like you have rejected peace again and again over the last 50+ years. And it comes from your societal norms. Where is Palestine's Gandhi or MLK? Do you have any peacemakers?

NP. Palestinians don’t need to kiss your ass. The nerve of you. Personally, I have no horse in this race, and I wish both Israeli and Palestinians would ride off into the sunset, but the idea that Palestinians owe you peacemaking is bananas. You stole their land and are committing genocide against them. The only they owe you is the same in return.

The Palestinians could live in a peaceful prosperous nation if only they didn't listen to people like you. There certainly are far right extremists on the Israelis side, just like the far right Arab extremists like you. This is a battle between far right extremist warmongers. I wish there were actual gen Z on this thread to witness that.

You sound like white people who like to tell me, a Black woman, what “The Blacks” need to do better. Kiss my ass and kiss Palestinians’ asses too. When you steal people’s ancestral land, cram them into open-air prisons, and deliberately make life as miserable for them as possible, you deserve however they respond. I have more important concerns
than Israel/Palestine and am not under any illusions that either Israelis or Palestinians GAF about my Black behind, but Zionists really need to stop lying to themselves. You started this fight, perpetuated it, and no one
wants to hear your mouth running. We’re all rooting for the Palestinians to turn the tables on you colonizers.

This is a mural that was in Gaza before it was destroyed.

Zionists want to play victim in this occupation based on what white Christians in Europe did to them. They use what Europeans have done to Jews for eons and project it onto Palestinians who had nothing to do with it. Even Netanyahu absolved Hitler and tried to blame Palestinians for the Holocaust. That's how despicable you have to be to defend what Israel does :

Well, look at that. Palestinian lives matter to my Black self, too, honey. Everyone who isn’t a liar knows that stealing Palestinian land to settle Europe wrongs was an evil deed. Stay strong. It took almost 300 years just to end slavery in America. The road might be long and arduous, but justice prevails. I believe we will see Palestinians back in your rightful place one day.

While I agree it was poor planning to plop down a bunch of Jewish people in the middle of Arab nations—and even worse to forcibly displace some—can you agree that all the billions of dollars in aid in support of building a civilized state over the last several decades could have resulted in a successful nation if only religious extremists hadn’t opted to squander the money on terrorism (I mean, the money left over once the leaders hadn’t taken millions off the top for themselves and their families who are living large far from the mess they created)?

If we can both agree that both sides are in the wrong, then maybe there is hope. This shouldn’t be hard unless you have a bias.

Jews weren’t just plopped into a bunch of Arab states. They were always there.

But ok. This thread just proves Maher’s point.

I was being overly simplistic and flip—largely in an effort to indulge the pp who clearly thinks Muslims were there first and Jewish people arrived post-WWII to randomly build Israel in a place they have no right to be.

Like Maher, I am fully aware that the Jews were there first and have always been in the region. Regardless, people were forcibly displaced to create Israel. That’s a fact, and I think the pp needs to hear others own that.

^^^
That’s my good faith effort to engage in a serious dialogue where we recognize both sides have done bad things and neither side is perfect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:Bill Maher is inaccurate in many instances in that video. He makes even basic mistakes. Here are a few:

1) He says that calling Jews "colonizers" is like calling Native Americans "colonizers". Consider your reaction if Native Americans from the South West began taking over Manhattan, creating a new country, and forcing its current residents into exile. Wouldn't you consider them "colonizers"? While it is true that some Jews remained permanently in what is now Israel, the Zionist movement was led by European Jews. At its conception, the Zionist movement was not in agreement about where a Jewish state should be located. Had a Jewish state been established in Uganda, an idea that was actually accepted by the World Jewish Congress in 1903, you would more readily recognize it to as colonization.

2) Maher claims that for 2,000 years nobody was interested in Palestine. This shows complete ignorance. What does Maher think the Crusades were about? Crusaders from Western Europe fought Persians and Kurds from today's Iran (among others) and Maher thinks this demonstrates a lack of interest. During the Ottoman Empire, there were thriving cities and towns in Palestine. Many radical supporters of Israel, including Maher apparently, would have you believe that Palestine was an empty land. That is a rewriting of history that misrepresents the deep ties that Palestinians have to their homeland.

3) Maher suggests that Zionism was a reaction to the Holocaust and that Jews became interested in a Jewish homeland after World War II. In fact, Jews had started emigrating from Europe to Palestine as early as 1882, the time of the First Aliyah. The movement gained momentum prior to World War I. Again, Maher is ignorant of basic history.

4) Maher refers to the killing of 600 protesters in Iran. That, of course, is a terrible thing that I condemn. But it pales in comparison to the number of protesters that has Israel killed. I am not talking about about those killed by Israel in fighting, but the killing of unarmed protesters. By the way, that number includes several Americans just in the last few months.

5) Maher commits a popular and common fallacy of equating opposition to Israel's killing of civilians as support for Hamas or Hezbollah. Pro-Israel individuals routinely say that they oppose Netanyahu but support Israel. That is considered a very acceptable position. Yet, when others say that they support the Palestinian people but oppose Hamas, they are labeled as supporters of terrorism. Those who, like Maher, engage in this sort of demagoguery are not serious and should not be considered serious. The should be considered as the propagandists that they are.

Jeff,

Points 1, 2, and 3 don’t reflect historical facts - and this is exactly what Maher was pointing out.

1. Do you recognize the fact that Jews in Europe arrived in Europe either at the hands of Roman invaders in Judea who captured and enslaved them and in some cases brought their slaves back to Europe and/or Jews fled the Levant because they were being terrorized by Ottoman and then later, and more violently, by Islamic invaders? Jews are native to Israel - they are indigenous to the land - and were forced from it violently. The Jewish diaspora is a result of Jews being forced out of that homeland not because the average middle eastern Jew was yearning for what is now Poland or Germany.

Despite the forced diaspora - which continued through the 20th century as Arab Islamist powers increasingly oppressed Jews all over the Middle East and even conspired with the Nazis in WWII, Jews never left Israel and as a community have been resilient enough to sustain a presence. There were over 600,000 Jews in Israel in 1946.

This is quite different than the strawman you pose of Native Americans from the Southwest retaking Manhattan.

And to this point, Uganda is not equivalent to Israel and that would have been colonialism because, unlike Israel, Jews have no historic connection to Uganda. That’s ultimately why Israel was identified as a Jewish state versus Uganda. Again, Jews are indigenous to Israel, not colonizers.

2. Also, why do you assert that “nobody was interested in Palestine” for 2,000 years. Jews have always been connected to that region - they never left that region. Religiously and in terms of historic connections, Jews have always been “interested” in that area of the Levant. Observant Jews have prayed in the direction of Jerusalem for millennia, it’s integral to Jewish identity. The line from the Passover Sedar - “next year in Jerusalem” is linked back to the 5th Century BCE. Jews have always been interested in Israel.

3. You reference Jews returning to Israel pre WWI …. You do realize that antisemitism in Russia and Eastern Europe surged at this time, right?

You make it seem like Jews woke up in mid-1800s and said, hey, let’s go to Israel. That’s not factual and seems ignorant of historic facts.

Lastly, denial of Jewish indigenous roots in the Middle East and specifically Israel has been part of Arab Islamist propaganda for the 50 years. This propaganda also attempts to wipe out the historical connection of Christians and other religious groups to those lands. It’s not factual - it’s propaganda - and again, part of what Maher was highlighting in his piece.

Not going to even get into 4 and 5 because the false equivalence of the one Jewish state in the world trying to defend itself from Iranian terrorist proxies and the resulting war post 10/7 and the terrorist / repressive regimes that are the Iranian regime and its spinoffs of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis is not worth debating. Again, not reflective of fact, which was Maher’s point to begin with.

So, uh, how did the Jews get to Israel in the first place?

Hint: there's a famous book that religious Jews read together every week, that explains the plan. In the ceremony of Jewish coming-of-age, Jewish children chant in Hebrew about Israel's plan to conquer Canaan and dominate the people who live there.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:Bill Maher is inaccurate in many instances in that video. He makes even basic mistakes. Here are a few:

1) He says that calling Jews "colonizers" is like calling Native Americans "colonizers". Consider your reaction if Native Americans from the South West began taking over Manhattan, creating a new country, and forcing its current residents into exile. Wouldn't you consider them "colonizers"? While it is true that some Jews remained permanently in what is now Israel, the Zionist movement was led by European Jews. At its conception, the Zionist movement was not in agreement about where a Jewish state should be located. Had a Jewish state been established in Uganda, an idea that was actually accepted by the World Jewish Congress in 1903, you would more readily recognize it to as colonization.

2) Maher claims that for 2,000 years nobody was interested in Palestine. This shows complete ignorance. What does Maher think the Crusades were about? Crusaders from Western Europe fought Persians and Kurds from today's Iran (among others) and Maher thinks this demonstrates a lack of interest. During the Ottoman Empire, there were thriving cities and towns in Palestine. Many radical supporters of Israel, including Maher apparently, would have you believe that Palestine was an empty land. That is a rewriting of history that misrepresents the deep ties that Palestinians have to their homeland.

3) Maher suggests that Zionism was a reaction to the Holocaust and that Jews became interested in a Jewish homeland after World War II. In fact, Jews had started emigrating from Europe to Palestine as early as 1882, the time of the First Aliyah. The movement gained momentum prior to World War I. Again, Maher is ignorant of basic history.

4) Maher refers to the killing of 600 protesters in Iran. That, of course, is a terrible thing that I condemn. But it pales in comparison to the number of protesters that has Israel killed. I am not talking about about those killed by Israel in fighting, but the killing of unarmed protesters. By the way, that number includes several Americans just in the last few months.

5) Maher commits a popular and common fallacy of equating opposition to Israel's killing of civilians as support for Hamas or Hezbollah. Pro-Israel individuals routinely say that they oppose Netanyahu but support Israel. That is considered a very acceptable position. Yet, when others say that they support the Palestinian people but oppose Hamas, they are labeled as supporters of terrorism. Those who, like Maher, engage in this sort of demagoguery are not serious and should not be considered serious. The should be considered as the propagandists that they are.

Jeff,

Points 1, 2, and 3 don’t reflect historical facts - and this is exactly what Maher was pointing out.

1. Do you recognize the fact that Jews in Europe arrived in Europe either at the hands of Roman invaders in Judea who captured and enslaved them and in some cases brought their slaves back to Europe and/or Jews fled the Levant because they were being terrorized by Ottoman and then later, and more violently, by Islamic invaders? Jews are native to Israel - they are indigenous to the land - and were forced from it violently. The Jewish diaspora is a result of Jews being forced out of that homeland not because the average middle eastern Jew was yearning for what is now Poland or Germany.

Despite the forced diaspora - which continued through the 20th century as Arab Islamist powers increasingly oppressed Jews all over the Middle East and even conspired with the Nazis in WWII, Jews never left Israel and as a community have been resilient enough to sustain a presence. There were over 600,000 Jews in Israel in 1946.

This is quite different than the strawman you pose of Native Americans from the Southwest retaking Manhattan.

And to this point, Uganda is not equivalent to Israel and that would have been colonialism because, unlike Israel, Jews have no historic connection to Uganda. That’s ultimately why Israel was identified as a Jewish state versus Uganda. Again, Jews are indigenous to Israel, not colonizers.

2. Also, why do you assert that “nobody was interested in Palestine” for 2,000 years. Jews have always been connected to that region - they never left that region. Religiously and in terms of historic connections, Jews have always been “interested” in that area of the Levant. Observant Jews have prayed in the direction of Jerusalem for millennia, it’s integral to Jewish identity. The line from the Passover Sedar - “next year in Jerusalem” is linked back to the 5th Century BCE. Jews have always been interested in Israel.

3. You reference Jews returning to Israel pre WWI …. You do realize that antisemitism in Russia and Eastern Europe surged at this time, right?

You make it seem like Jews woke up in mid-1800s and said, hey, let’s go to Israel. That’s not factual and seems ignorant of historic facts.

Lastly, denial of Jewish indigenous roots in the Middle East and specifically Israel has been part of Arab Islamist propaganda for the 50 years. This propaganda also attempts to wipe out the historical connection of Christians and other religious groups to those lands. It’s not factual - it’s propaganda - and again, part of what Maher was highlighting in his piece.

Not going to even get into 4 and 5 because the false equivalence of the one Jewish state in the world trying to defend itself from Iranian terrorist proxies and the resulting war post 10/7 and the terrorist / repressive regimes that are the Iranian regime and its spinoffs of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis is not worth debating. Again, not reflective of fact, which was Maher’s point to begin with.

I don't know if you realize, but you are mostly agreeing with me. I was not the one who said that nobody was interested in Palestine for 2000 years. That was Maher. You must not have watched the video. I pointed out that he was wrong and, in fact, there was considerable interest. You seem to agree that there was interest. Your justifications for Jews moving to Palestine may be correct, but, again, only reinforce my point that Jews were moving to Israel before World War II, a claim Maher made and of which you would be aware if you had bothered to watch the video. So, I guess, thanks for mostly agreeing with my points about Maher being wrong. Who says people with different opinions can't find common ground?

[Anonymous]

Why did Europe apologize to the Jews for the Holocaust, by giving them a plot of land in Palestine, instead of in Europe? Oh, right, because Palestine was ruled by British colonizers, who magnanimously donated the land they stole.

Can I burn your house down and then go kick out some else and give you their house?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just had a chance to watch this and have a few questions to those who believe it presents facts:

1) do you accept that people of both Jewish and Palestinian descent share common ancestry from the Caanites who lived in the region prior to both the Jewish and Islamic faiths existed? If not, who you think that the ancestors of Palestinians are from”invaders”?

2) if you accept the U.N. designation of Israel’s borders when it was created, why do you not accept the current UN mandated border for the state of Israel.

Because that’s what it is to be a Zionist. Arrogantly picking and choosing what suits them.

You can apparently be an atheist who suddenly picks and chooses parts of the Bible you agree with and ignore the rest. And more audaciously, ignoring life before the Bible or religion; that’s some chutzpah from an atheist.

That’s why Maher has always been pathetic and a clown along with the countless other high profile atheists who all seem to be rabid Zionists as well. When people say he mocks all religions, that’s bullsh*t. He specifically mocks only the Jews who follow the Torah and say Israel is not even supposed to be created until the Messiah comes.

People need to really question their own intelligence if they thought this stupid segment sans any actual debate (like every single time he bloviates on this topic) was “fact-based.”

You are a perfect example of someone who doesn't want peace in Israel/Palestine. People who think like you have rejected peace again and again over the last 50+ years. And it comes from your societal norms. Where is Palestine's Gandhi or MLK? Do you have any peacemakers?

What a gross response as I listen to Maher and people like you justify the massacre of my people and reducing us to one dimensional caricatures who just want to kill Jews.

What peace plans? Be specific in the details, since you people never are. You are a LIGHT-WEIGHT. I can write your responses for you at this point because it's all the same garbage with no context or details because that would then show you have no valid argument. The only peace deal that ever came close to being fair was one that ended the moment a bullet hit Rabin. WHO KILLED HIM?

Don't you dare speak down to me when you are the ones trying to erase my people and nullify our existence and claim we never existed at all. What other psychos get to do that to a group of people to justify murdering them TODAY? Putin isn't even as insidious as Netayanhu and that disgusting Knesset.

75 f***ing years of people like you watching tax money going towards killing my people and stealing everything from us. You want young people who watch countless videos of YEARS of IDF and settlers beating the sh*t out of Palestinians, to go along with you and you want to just sit there and pretend we are the violent ones?

You're clearly of a certain age where you think your same, tire responses2023 marks deadliest year on record for children in the occupied West Bank work. You still think everyone should continue to believe the lies about "antisemitism' and just want to kill Jews and all of the other despicable racist tropes you get away with to justify an occupation.

My people paid for what EUROPE did. PERIOD. Until you accept that fact, don't ever talk about who started what and who brought violence to Palestine.

You've chosen to lie to yourself about history. You and Bill Maher --that worthless, disgusting bigot too cowardly to debate any of us-- want the younger generation to believe the lies you tell them regarding the history of how that country was even created. They refuse to swallow your revisionist tripe that has been pushed by traditional media which no longer has any credibility.

Have you ever heard of 'turn the other cheek'? Or do you only know 'an eye for an eye'? For your children's sake, give up your bloodlust.

MY bloodlust? Again, you can't debate for sh*t and you're a typical Zionist: Racism is all you know. Funny how you have the audacity to play pious when it comes to death and "bloodlust" AFTER Palestinians are killed which you purposely omit to then do what you just did. Why is it always you acting as though it wasn't Israeli bloodlust first? Are you that dumb you want to just start the clock last year on one day in Oct? Why choose the 7th? Tell us: Why can't we start the moment this guy showed up?

Or just ignore that this was Oct *6*: 2023 marks deadliest year on record for children in the occupied West Bank.

I know the above doesn't mean anything. You prefer people weep for nonexistent, beheaded Israeli babies than real, dead Palestinians babies.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank

Again you're trying to draw us into 'an eye for an eye' vengeance mindset. Exhibit A in why this conflict goes on and on. You and the far right extremists on the Israeli side don't want peace. And then you appeal to the horror you have created! You are both become demons.

You're despicable. The overwhelming majority of Israeli society SUPPORTS what is happening. You are lying to yourself and throwing me in with the "far right"? Quote me saying anything about Jews deserving to be killed. You are in denial as to how the avg Israeli thinks. When they protested a while back, it was for themselves having their freedom restricted, not what is done to Palestinians. Me showing you who actually *started* this, is met with you saying I'm a "demon"? You've shown your own bias. What you've done is essentially claim that a jaywalker and mass murderer are the same level of criminality. You're an absolutely bad faith actor pretending to be objective.

Israelis VOTE for this and have been for a long time. Meanwhile, you're the same phony who will say Palestinians in Gaza who were mostly under 21 voted for Hamas...over 15 years ago. Ignoring how Hamas even got elected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sure. Right after you watch Ezra Klein’s interview with Ta-Nehisi Coates.

Has Bill Maher ever even been to the West Bank?

I've been to the West Bank and to most of the areas surrounding it. I would not presume to explain the complex history of that area to Gen Z. They know it all, are not interested unless it is in three word snips, memes, or GIFs. I guess good for Maher for trying but he gets a good deal wrong.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:Bill Maher is inaccurate in many instances in that video. He makes even basic mistakes. Here are a few:

1) He says that calling Jews "colonizers" is like calling Native Americans "colonizers". Consider your reaction if Native Americans from the South West began taking over Manhattan, creating a new country, and forcing its current residents into exile. Wouldn't you consider them "colonizers"? While it is true that some Jews remained permanently in what is now Israel, the Zionist movement was led by European Jews. At its conception, the Zionist movement was not in agreement about where a Jewish state should be located. Had a Jewish state been established in Uganda, an idea that was actually accepted by the World Jewish Congress in 1903, you would more readily recognize it to as colonization.

2) Maher claims that for 2,000 years nobody was interested in Palestine. This shows complete ignorance. What does Maher think the Crusades were about? Crusaders from Western Europe fought Persians and Kurds from today's Iran (among others) and Maher thinks this demonstrates a lack of interest. During the Ottoman Empire, there were thriving cities and towns in Palestine. Many radical supporters of Israel, including Maher apparently, would have you believe that Palestine was an empty land. That is a rewriting of history that misrepresents the deep ties that Palestinians have to their homeland.

3) Maher suggests that Zionism was a reaction to the Holocaust and that Jews became interested in a Jewish homeland after World War II. In fact, Jews had started emigrating from Europe to Palestine as early as 1882, the time of the First Aliyah. The movement gained momentum prior to World War I. Again, Maher is ignorant of basic history.

4) Maher refers to the killing of 600 protesters in Iran. That, of course, is a terrible thing that I condemn. But it pales in comparison to the number of protesters that has Israel killed. I am not talking about about those killed by Israel in fighting, but the killing of unarmed protesters. By the way, that number includes several Americans just in the last few months.

5) Maher commits a popular and common fallacy of equating opposition to Israel's killing of civilians as support for Hamas or Hezbollah. Pro-Israel individuals routinely say that they oppose Netanyahu but support Israel. That is considered a very acceptable position. Yet, when others say that they support the Palestinian people but oppose Hamas, they are labeled as supporters of terrorism. Those who, like Maher, engage in this sort of demagoguery are not serious and should not be considered serious. The should be considered as the propagandists that they are.

Jeff,

Points 1, 2, and 3 don’t reflect historical facts - and this is exactly what Maher was pointing out.

1. Do you recognize the fact that Jews in Europe arrived in Europe either at the hands of Roman invaders in Judea who captured and enslaved them and in some cases brought their slaves back to Europe and/or Jews fled the Levant because they were being terrorized by Ottoman and then later, and more violently, by Islamic invaders? Jews are native to Israel - they are indigenous to the land - and were forced from it violently. The Jewish diaspora is a result of Jews being forced out of that homeland not because the average middle eastern Jew was yearning for what is now Poland or Germany.

Despite the forced diaspora - which continued through the 20th century as Arab Islamist powers increasingly oppressed Jews all over the Middle East and even conspired with the Nazis in WWII, Jews never left Israel and as a community have been resilient enough to sustain a presence. There were over 600,000 Jews in Israel in 1946.

This is quite different than the strawman you pose of Native Americans from the Southwest retaking Manhattan.

And to this point, Uganda is not equivalent to Israel and that would have been colonialism because, unlike Israel, Jews have no historic connection to Uganda. That’s ultimately why Israel was identified as a Jewish state versus Uganda. Again, Jews are indigenous to Israel, not colonizers.

2. Also, why do you assert that “nobody was interested in Palestine” for 2,000 years. Jews have always been connected to that region - they never left that region. Religiously and in terms of historic connections, Jews have always been “interested” in that area of the Levant. Observant Jews have prayed in the direction of Jerusalem for millennia, it’s integral to Jewish identity. The line from the Passover Sedar - “next year in Jerusalem” is linked back to the 5th Century BCE. Jews have always been interested in Israel.

3. You reference Jews returning to Israel pre WWI …. You do realize that antisemitism in Russia and Eastern Europe surged at this time, right?

You make it seem like Jews woke up in mid-1800s and said, hey, let’s go to Israel. That’s not factual and seems ignorant of historic facts.

Lastly, denial of Jewish indigenous roots in the Middle East and specifically Israel has been part of Arab Islamist propaganda for the 50 years. This propaganda also attempts to wipe out the historical connection of Christians and other religious groups to those lands. It’s not factual - it’s propaganda - and again, part of what Maher was highlighting in his piece.

Not going to even get into 4 and 5 because the false equivalence of the one Jewish state in the world trying to defend itself from Iranian terrorist proxies and the resulting war post 10/7 and the terrorist / repressive regimes that are the Iranian regime and its spinoffs of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis is not worth debating. Again, not reflective of fact, which was Maher’s point to begin with.

I don't know if you realize, but you are mostly agreeing with me. I was not the one who said that nobody was interested in Palestine for 2000 years. That was Maher. You must not have watched the video. I pointed out that he was wrong and, in fact, there was considerable interest. You seem to agree that there was interest. Your justifications for Jews moving to Palestine may be correct, but, again, only reinforce my point that Jews were moving to Israel before World War II, a claim Maher made and of which you would be aware if you had bothered to watch the video. So, I guess, thanks for mostly agreeing with my points about Maher being wrong. Who says people with different opinions can't find common ground?

Jeff, You are being entirely too kind to someone who believes the Ottomans existed before Islam.

[Anonymous]

Funny how Arab Jews were living in the Arab world...right up until 1948. Did Muslims suddenly show up in 1948 to throw them out? I would suggest those who think they know who started the intimidation campaign, do more research.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just had a chance to watch this and have a few questions to those who believe it presents facts:

1) do you accept that people of both Jewish and Palestinian descent share common ancestry from the Caanites who lived in the region prior to both the Jewish and Islamic faiths existed? If not, who you think that the ancestors of Palestinians are from”invaders”?

2) if you accept the U.N. designation of Israel’s borders when it was created, why do you not accept the current UN mandated border for the state of Israel.

Because that’s what it is to be a Zionist. Arrogantly picking and choosing what suits them.

You can apparently be an atheist who suddenly picks and chooses parts of the Bible you agree with and ignore the rest. And more audaciously, ignoring life before the Bible or religion; that’s some chutzpah from an atheist.

That’s why Maher has always been pathetic and a clown along with the countless other high profile atheists who all seem to be rabid Zionists as well. When people say he mocks all religions, that’s bullsh*t. He specifically mocks only the Jews who follow the Torah and say Israel is not even supposed to be created until the Messiah comes.

People need to really question their own intelligence if they thought this stupid segment sans any actual debate (like every single time he bloviates on this topic) was “fact-based.”

You are a perfect example of someone who doesn't want peace in Israel/Palestine. People who think like you have rejected peace again and again over the last 50+ years. And it comes from your societal norms. Where is Palestine's Gandhi or MLK? Do you have any peacemakers?

NP. Palestinians don’t need to kiss your ass. The nerve of you. Personally, I have no horse in this race, and I wish both Israeli and Palestinians would ride off into the sunset, but the idea that Palestinians owe you peacemaking is bananas. You stole their land and are committing genocide against them. The only they owe you is the same in return.

The Palestinians could live in a peaceful prosperous nation if only they didn't listen to people like you. There certainly are far right extremists on the Israelis side, just like the far right Arab extremists like you. This is a battle between far right extremist warmongers. I wish there were actual gen Z on this thread to witness that.

You sound like white people who like to tell me, a Black woman, what “The Blacks” need to do better. Kiss my ass and kiss Palestinians’ asses too. When you steal people’s ancestral land, cram them into open-air prisons, and deliberately make life as miserable for them as possible, you deserve however they respond. I have more important concerns
than Israel/Palestine and am not under any illusions that either Israelis or Palestinians GAF about my Black behind, but Zionists really need to stop lying to themselves. You started this fight, perpetuated it, and no one
wants to hear your mouth running. We’re all rooting for the Palestinians to turn the tables on you colonizers.

This is a mural that was in Gaza before it was destroyed.

Zionists want to play victim in this occupation based on what white Christians in Europe did to them. They use what Europeans have done to Jews for eons and project it onto Palestinians who had nothing to do with it. Even Netanyahu absolved Hitler and tried to blame Palestinians for the Holocaust. That's how despicable you have to be to defend what Israel does :

Well, look at that. Palestinian lives matter to my Black self, too, honey. Everyone who isn’t a liar knows that stealing Palestinian land to settle Europe wrongs was an evil deed. Stay strong. It took almost 300 years just to end slavery in America. The road might be long and arduous, but justice prevails. I believe we will see Palestinians back in your rightful place one day.

While I agree it was poor planning to plop down a bunch of Jewish people in the middle of Arab nations—and even worse to forcibly displace some—can you agree that all the billions of dollars in aid in support of building a civilized state over the last several decades could have resulted in a successful nation if only religious extremists hadn’t opted to squander the money on terrorism (I mean, the money left over once the leaders hadn’t taken millions off the top for themselves and their families who are living large far from the mess they created)?

If we can both agree that both sides are in the wrong, then maybe there is hope. This shouldn’t be hard unless you have a bias.

And your bias is one when you're pull the tiresome "both sides" nonsense ignoring what has been happening in the West Bank for years. You can bleat about "religious extremism" all you want, but it won't change the fact that it's violent Jewish ones responsible for what has happened in the WB and the Israeli govt encourages it

Just to be clear: you simply believe only Israel is at fault and deserves whatever religious extremist terrorists do…always?

And you don’t have any issue with religious extremists who are dedicated to destroying Israel, all Jewish people, America, and the West? (ICYMI: that’s the standard terrorist mantra.)

I just can’t understand how anyone—regardless of race, religion, or ethnicity—can brush past the role of terrorism and religious extremism…particularly Americans.

^^^
This is the sort of dialogue that prompts people to worry that far too many might actually support religious extremism (at least when it comes to a certain religion). Wowza.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure. Right after you watch Ezra Klein’s interview with Ta-Nehisi Coates.

Has Bill Maher ever even been to the West Bank?

I've been to the West Bank and to most of the areas surrounding it. I would not presume to explain the complex history of that area to Gen Z. They know it all, are not interested unless it is in three word snips, memes, or GIFs. I guess good for Maher for trying but he gets a good deal wrong.

Gen Z knows enough that Zionists are trying to whitewash what goes on. They are tantamount to Southerners in the 60s saying "Ar' c*loreds are jus' fine."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just had a chance to watch this and have a few questions to those who believe it presents facts:

1) do you accept that people of both Jewish and Palestinian descent share common ancestry from the Caanites who lived in the region prior to both the Jewish and Islamic faiths existed? If not, who you think that the ancestors of Palestinians are from”invaders”?

2) if you accept the U.N. designation of Israel’s borders when it was created, why do you not accept the current UN mandated border for the state of Israel.

Because that’s what it is to be a Zionist. Arrogantly picking and choosing what suits them.

You can apparently be an atheist who suddenly picks and chooses parts of the Bible you agree with and ignore the rest. And more audaciously, ignoring life before the Bible or religion; that’s some chutzpah from an atheist.

That’s why Maher has always been pathetic and a clown along with the countless other high profile atheists who all seem to be rabid Zionists as well. When people say he mocks all religions, that’s bullsh*t. He specifically mocks only the Jews who follow the Torah and say Israel is not even supposed to be created until the Messiah comes.

People need to really question their own intelligence if they thought this stupid segment sans any actual debate (like every single time he bloviates on this topic) was “fact-based.”

You are a perfect example of someone who doesn't want peace in Israel/Palestine. People who think like you have rejected peace again and again over the last 50+ years. And it comes from your societal norms. Where is Palestine's Gandhi or MLK? Do you have any peacemakers?

NP. Palestinians don’t need to kiss your ass. The nerve of you. Personally, I have no horse in this race, and I wish both Israeli and Palestinians would ride off into the sunset, but the idea that Palestinians owe you peacemaking is bananas. You stole their land and are committing genocide against them. The only they owe you is the same in return.

The Palestinians could live in a peaceful prosperous nation if only they didn't listen to people like you. There certainly are far right extremists on the Israelis side, just like the far right Arab extremists like you. This is a battle between far right extremist warmongers. I wish there were actual gen Z on this thread to witness that.

You sound like white people who like to tell me, a Black woman, what “The Blacks” need to do better. Kiss my ass and kiss Palestinians’ asses too. When you steal people’s ancestral land, cram them into open-air prisons, and deliberately make life as miserable for them as possible, you deserve however they respond. I have more important concerns
than Israel/Palestine and am not under any illusions that either Israelis or Palestinians GAF about my Black behind, but Zionists really need to stop lying to themselves. You started this fight, perpetuated it, and no one
wants to hear your mouth running. We’re all rooting for the Palestinians to turn the tables on you colonizers.

This is a mural that was in Gaza before it was destroyed.

Zionists want to play victim in this occupation based on what white Christians in Europe did to them. They use what Europeans have done to Jews for eons and project it onto Palestinians who had nothing to do with it. Even Netanyahu absolved Hitler and tried to blame Palestinians for the Holocaust. That's how despicable you have to be to defend what Israel does :

Well, look at that. Palestinian lives matter to my Black self, too, honey. Everyone who isn’t a liar knows that stealing Palestinian land to settle Europe wrongs was an evil deed. Stay strong. It took almost 300 years just to end slavery in America. The road might be long and arduous, but justice prevails. I believe we will see Palestinians back in your rightful place one day.

While I agree it was poor planning to plop down a bunch of Jewish people in the middle of Arab nations—and even worse to forcibly displace some—can you agree that all the billions of dollars in aid in support of building a civilized state over the last several decades could have resulted in a successful nation if only religious extremists hadn’t opted to squander the money on terrorism (I mean, the money left over once the leaders hadn’t taken millions off the top for themselves and their families who are living large far from the mess they created)?

If we can both agree that both sides are in the wrong, then maybe there is hope. This shouldn’t be hard unless you have a bias.

And your bias is one when you're pull the tiresome "both sides" nonsense ignoring what has been happening in the West Bank for years. You can bleat about "religious extremism" all you want, but it won't change the fact that it's violent Jewish ones responsible for what has happened in the WB and the Israeli govt encourages it

Just to be clear: you simply believe only Israel is at fault and deserves whatever religious extremist terrorists do…always?

And you don’t have any issue with religious extremists who are dedicated to destroying Israel, all Jewish people, America, and the West? (ICYMI: that’s the standard terrorist mantra.)

I just can’t understand how anyone—regardless of race, religion, or ethnicity—can brush past the role of terrorism and religious extremism…particularly Americans.

^^^
This is the sort of dialogue that prompts people to worry that far too many might actually support religious extremism (at least when it comes to a certain religion). Wowza.

Your definition of clear appears to be a swamp. Nothing you said resembles what I said.

When you talk about terrorism and start at Hamas or Palestinian in general, then you've already lost credibility. You don't get to arbitrarily ignore what you want to then decide WHEN terrorism started. If you genuinely cared about terrorism, why won't you accept that it was brought to Palestine by Zionist Jews and that several of their PMs and countless Knesset members were/are literal terrorists?

[Anonymous]

Zionist Jewish terrorists tried to recruit Nazis to commit terrorism in Palestine for f**k sake. LEHI. Look it up.

You can't just pretend this is a chicken/egg scenario, because it isn't. There was no Hamas or PLO or Hezbollah. Terrorism started the moment Zionism reared its ugly head from Europe at the turn of the last century. That isn't up for debate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just had a chance to watch this and have a few questions to those who believe it presents facts:

1) do you accept that people of both Jewish and Palestinian descent share common ancestry from the Caanites who lived in the region prior to both the Jewish and Islamic faiths existed? If not, who you think that the ancestors of Palestinians are from”invaders”?

2) if you accept the U.N. designation of Israel’s borders when it was created, why do you not accept the current UN mandated border for the state of Israel.

As an American who is neither Jewish nor Muslim, I couldn’t care less about ancient history when it comes to who has dibs on the land. Rather, I care about what’s happening right now.

Re: the UN approved borders - I believe borders matter. I also recognize it’s really tough to live alongside countries where terrorists dedicated to your eradication live. Seems like that might prompt you to create a buffer for your security…and perhaps overcompensate to control the border…especially if you know Iran is sneaking in trucks and weapons via big tunnels from Egypt.

To be fair, I also recognize it sucks for the innocent Palestinians and Lebanese people who are caught up in this brutal war thanks to the religious extremism that fuels terrorists funded by Iran. The reality is the violence still would have happened even if Israel never expanded its borders. Terrorists aren’t motivated by borders: they just want Israel and its people gone…and they feel just as strongly about America and the West.

As an American, that last bit is the piece that worries me. Moreover, I’m confused why it doesn’t concern all Americans. I’m not ride or die for Israel. I’m not anti-Palestinian. I just wish there was a way to wave a magic wand to move all religious extremists to evolve. If everyone could embrace basic human rights and religious freedom and terrorism disappeared, the Middle East might have a chance at peace. Debating ancient or even recent history or borders won’t fix the real problem. If you can’t recognize the real issue is religious extremism, then we can’t really have a productive conversation.

I also don't think ancient history matters, but that was the premise of the Maher video. Did you watch it?

I agree that religious extremism is at fault (in fact, I think religion has done way more harm than good throughout history, but I'm a 3rd generation atheist).

But my questions are to the folks that agree that Maher presented facts. I'm trying to understand the mindset of their reality because it fundamentally confuses me.

As to your point about concern about terrorists, I agree. But perhaps where we differ is that I think the US's unwavering and unquestioning support of Israel and inability to look critically at why the terrorists are terrorists is dangerous for Americans. You just have the look at the photos and imagine yourself in the footsteps of people in Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon to understand why they might hate Israel and the US.

Have you travelled to the region? Do you have friends who are Palestinian or Lebanese? The suffering they are experiencing is not just an abstraction it's real and human.

I am worried that events have gone too far for there to be resolution that allows Israelis to live in long term peace. But the other path forward that I see is for people to get out of the echo chamber and start understanding others' PoV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just had a chance to watch this and have a few questions to those who believe it presents facts:

1) do you accept that people of both Jewish and Palestinian descent share common ancestry from the Caanites who lived in the region prior to both the Jewish and Islamic faiths existed? If not, who you think that the ancestors of Palestinians are from”invaders”?

2) if you accept the U.N. designation of Israel’s borders when it was created, why do you not accept the current UN mandated border for the state of Israel.

Because that’s what it is to be a Zionist. Arrogantly picking and choosing what suits them.

You can apparently be an atheist who suddenly picks and chooses parts of the Bible you agree with and ignore the rest. And more audaciously, ignoring life before the Bible or religion; that’s some chutzpah from an atheist.

That’s why Maher has always been pathetic and a clown along with the countless other high profile atheists who all seem to be rabid Zionists as well. When people say he mocks all religions, that’s bullsh*t. He specifically mocks only the Jews who follow the Torah and say Israel is not even supposed to be created until the Messiah comes.

People need to really question their own intelligence if they thought this stupid segment sans any actual debate (like every single time he bloviates on this topic) was “fact-based.”

You are a perfect example of someone who doesn't want peace in Israel/Palestine. People who think like you have rejected peace again and again over the last 50+ years. And it comes from your societal norms. Where is Palestine's Gandhi or MLK? Do you have any peacemakers?

NP. Palestinians don’t need to kiss your ass. The nerve of you. Personally, I have no horse in this race, and I wish both Israeli and Palestinians would ride off into the sunset, but the idea that Palestinians owe you peacemaking is bananas. You stole their land and are committing genocide against them. The only they owe you is the same in return.

The Palestinians could live in a peaceful prosperous nation if only they didn't listen to people like you. There certainly are far right extremists on the Israelis side, just like the far right Arab extremists like you. This is a battle between far right extremist warmongers. I wish there were actual gen Z on this thread to witness that.

You sound like white people who like to tell me, a Black woman, what “The Blacks” need to do better. Kiss my ass and kiss Palestinians’ asses too. When you steal people’s ancestral land, cram them into open-air prisons, and deliberately make life as miserable for them as possible, you deserve however they respond. I have more important concerns
than Israel/Palestine and am not under any illusions that either Israelis or Palestinians GAF about my Black behind, but Zionists really need to stop lying to themselves. You started this fight, perpetuated it, and no one
wants to hear your mouth running. We’re all rooting for the Palestinians to turn the tables on you colonizers.

This is a mural that was in Gaza before it was destroyed.

Zionists want to play victim in this occupation based on what white Christians in Europe did to them. They use what Europeans have done to Jews for eons and project it onto Palestinians who had nothing to do with it. Even Netanyahu absolved Hitler and tried to blame Palestinians for the Holocaust. That's how despicable you have to be to defend what Israel does :

Well, look at that. Palestinian lives matter to my Black self, too, honey. Everyone who isn’t a liar knows that stealing Palestinian land to settle Europe wrongs was an evil deed. Stay strong. It took almost 300 years just to end slavery in America. The road might be long and arduous, but justice prevails. I believe we will see Palestinians back in your rightful place one day.

While I agree it was poor planning to plop down a bunch of Jewish people in the middle of Arab nations—and even worse to forcibly displace some—can you agree that all the billions of dollars in aid in support of building a civilized state over the last several decades could have resulted in a successful nation if only religious extremists hadn’t opted to squander the money on terrorism (I mean, the money left over once the leaders hadn’t taken millions off the top for themselves and their families who are living large far from the mess they created)?

If we can both agree that both sides are in the wrong, then maybe there is hope. This shouldn’t be hard unless you have a bias.

And your bias is one when you're pull the tiresome "both sides" nonsense ignoring what has been happening in the West Bank for years. You can bleat about "religious extremism" all you want, but it won't change the fact that it's violent Jewish ones responsible for what has happened in the WB and the Israeli govt encourages it

Just to be clear: you simply believe only Israel is at fault and deserves whatever religious extremist terrorists do…always?

And you don’t have any issue with religious extremists who are dedicated to destroying Israel, all Jewish people, America, and the West? (ICYMI: that’s the standard terrorist mantra.)

I just can’t understand how anyone—regardless of race, religion, or ethnicity—can brush past the role of terrorism and religious extremism…particularly Americans.

^^^
This is the sort of dialogue that prompts people to worry that far too many might actually support religious extremism (at least when it comes to a certain religion). Wowza.

Your definition of clear appears to be a swamp. Nothing you said resembles what I said.

When you talk about terrorism and start at Hamas or Palestinian in general, then you've already lost credibility. You don't get to arbitrarily ignore what you want to then decide WHEN terrorism started. If you genuinely cared about terrorism, why won't you accept that it was brought to Palestine by Zionist Jews and that several of their PMs and countless Knesset members were/are literal terrorists?

I’ve been clear that terrorists are to blame and I’ve never labeled all Palestinians or Muslims as terrorists.

The more I hear, the more concerned I am that some aren’t able to realize who the terrorists are and why religious extremism is dangerous.

Based on your pp, it seems like you think terrorism is simply self-defense or otherwise justified.

Rational people with no dog in this fight can quickly identify terrorism and recognize that religious fueled violence (particularly when death is the goal) is never ever cool. Moreover, the grip they have over women and children and the lack of basic human rights are dangerous. Deadly in fact. And that’s the real enemy.

If you can’t acknowledge that, then you are biased to the point of delusion.

[Anonymous]

Oh - and I would also add that I don't think Iran is as strong as we think it is here in the US. There are many reports that they are trying frantically to avoid being pulled more into the conflict. Sure, they sold weapons to Hezbollah and Hamas, but perhaps this more driven by economics and a result of the sanctions we imposed rather than an intent to manage a remote army. As my Lebanese friend repeatedly tells me, Iranians are primarily of Persian descent, an entirely different language and culture than Palestinians and Lebanese.

I applaud Gen Z and others getting news outside of the mainstream. I think we know very little about the ME and our misreading of the situation on the ground is what has created much of the current issues.