Volleyball Action

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What has become readily apparent over the last couple of years (especially as of late) is that these DCUM forums have unfortunately become overrun by proxies for a whole bunch of different clubs. Whether these people are actual club directors for the club, coaches, or diehard loyalists, the end result is that these forums contain absolutely zero worthwhile (or truthful) information to help parents make decisions. Just in this forum I can see what appears to be Legacy's Club Director, a Metro loyalist who is always bolstering up Metro and criticizing Paramount, a Paramount loyalist who just talks about tournament finishes, and someone with broken English who likes to criticize Metro. This is just to name a few. How about everybody grows up, gets out of this anonymous online forum, and starts to live a life in the real world.

If you grew up, got out of this anonymous online forum, and started to live a life in the real world, we would not have had to read this message that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. There is a lot of good information on these threads, especially for people with limited experience in the world of club volleyball. There was no back-and-forth between the Metro and Paramount loyalists on this particular thread. I agree that Legacy's club director trying to ANSWER every single point with non-answers is a bit questionable - of course she will turn herself into a pretzel just to make the club look good.

I still have to read a good reason for the club fees in Virginia being so damn high. An excuse like "others charge the same" is not acceptable: why is it possible to charge more decent prices in MD? Just look how much MVSA charges for a roster of 10 players. It is absolutely fine if you want to pay the coaches: divide the coach stipend to the number of players and add it to the MVSA prices. I doubt that VA coaches are paid so much better than the MD coaches to justify the difference in fees. Do you need an admin because the club is too large? Divide the cost to the total number of club players. Most clubs (even MD clubs) don't have 10 player rosters, so the price per player should actually go down. It is likely that even MOCO or MEVC fees are a bit inflated, even though they look reasonable compared to the club fees in VA. The truth is that they found a business opportunity and they are milking it.

I agree it seems like VA fees trend higher than MD fees. That said, I think it's more fair to compare VA fees to Maryland clubs like MOCO, MEVC, or Maryland Juniors, rather than MVSA.

What MVSA has created over the course of more than 30 years is pretty unique and would be almost impossible to replicate if you started today. In addition to all volunteer coaches, MVSA practices almost exclusively in MCPS or rec center facilities. According to the MCPS website, gym rental at an MCPS school for a non-profit organization is $17 per hour (it’s $22.50 per hour for a for profit). Commercial facilities and private schools tend to be a lot more ($75-$100 per hour). Another thing MVSA does to offset costs is host a LOT of tournaments. These allow for their teams to have priority to play in these tournaments (and presumably they don’t pay tournament fees for their own events) as well as make some extra revenue to help offset other costs. Many teams will have parents help at practice or serve as assistant coaches. They also have connections with t-shirt printing companies and deals on gear that help keep their costs low on the limited gear that's included with the club fees. A lot of people are giving their time, expertise, experience, and connections without being paid to make what MVSA does possible.

It's pretty much a full time job for most of the year for a club director to run a club of even one team per age group. Most of the bigger clubs have at least one paid administrative person in addition to the director. Do these people not deserve to make a reasonable living from running their small business? Using MOCO as an example, their highest club fee for the upcoming season is $3600 for their older 1s teams. Their fees include: 3 jerseys, backpack, practice shirts, HUDL, coach pay, equipment and training supplies, 3 practices/week, strength & conditioning, skills clinics, program administration, and tournament entry fees. Honestly, $3600 seems like a pretty good deal considering they start practicing in late November/early December, go to some bigger tournaments (e.g., Capitol Hill, NEQ, and ECC) and continue to at least Memorial Day. And if some of that $3600 is profit for the club, isn't that reasonable?

I know that the MVSA model is hard to replicate when profit is more important than volleyball. I feel like we are now talking with a MOCO representative, who wants to place MOCO in a good light. Indeed, MOCO looks pretty good compared with VA clubs, but they still inflate their prices. I already gave room for clubs to add coach stipends and include an admin, so I will only address facility prices. Nothings stops a club from using MCPS facilities, the same way as MVSA does. If they are a for-profit club, they would pay $5 extra per hour, which is $0.50 per player for a 10 player roster. For a 2h practice 2x a week for 30 weeks, that would increase the fees / player by about $60 per season. MOCO has more than 10 players / roster, so less than $60 likely applies. MOCO has as many teams as MVSA, so they could negotiate with the t-shirt printing / gear companies the same way as MVSA does. I know that parents also contribute to MOCO coaching, but I am not sure whether they are paid or not.

PP here. Not a MOCO rep or parent - their fees just seem pretty reasonable so I chose them as an example. My point is that these are mostly small businesses and there are a lot of expenses in running a volleyball club. I personally don't fault a small business owner for wanting to make a reasonable living from their efforts. I suspect all of us paying these club fees advocate for ourselves to be fairly compensated for whatever it is that we do. And from my perspective, it appears that MOCO is trying to strike a balance between profit and volleyball. MVSA is run more like a charity which is great, but it does not seem realistic to use outliers like MVSA as the basis for arguing everyone else is too expensive.

I agree that some clubs (especially on the VA side of the Potomac) seem to be charging more than can be justified based on what they offer. There is also a trend for clubs that play in lower divisions or have less experienced players going to be going to more tournaments that are farther away which drives up costs. This was reflected in one of the responses from the pro-Legacy advocate who said "Never will I think 2’s players are “bad”…on the contrary there are PLENTY of 2’s players that have the ability to show their skills. They want to attend the BIG tournaments and as many of the BIG tournaments as the 1’s teams". My sense is that many of the parents of players of 2s team players at less competitive clubs would prefer to not pay more to go to Big South or Sunshine just for the experience.

I am using MVSA to figure out what it really costs to run a volleyball club. As far as I could tell, their coaches have a day job and get involved with club volleyball for the love of volleyball, not to make a living. I agreed that you can add coaches stipends and admin salary to those fees, but you would have to agree that you would not end up with the fees charged in VA (and likely the MD clubs also add some good profit to their bottom line).

14:38 PP here.

One question for you: What do you believe is an acceptable amount of income for a club, either as a % of revenue or as a total dollar amount?

I agree with you that some clubs are charging a lot more than seems reasonable (or at least we can afford). But in order to "speak up against their practices and call out their greed" we should probably agree on what greed looks like. What's your definition?

With that in mind, if you are using MVSA to figure out what it costs to run a volleyball club, its pretty easy. Another thread on DCUM showed us how to find a clubs non-profit filings. MVSA's public reporting is available at https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/811916976 and shows their revenue, costs and net income, along with their assets. You can look up a dozen or more CHRVA clubs there as well.

Obviously, you can't get that info on for-profit clubs but as that same thread points out, non-profit doesn't mean "makes no money" and for-profit doesn't mean "makes a lot of money", they're just tax statuses.

If you want to translate that public info into what an acceptable club fee is, you are welcome to use the data provided above on whats included or not included in each clubs fees to calculate the relative fees of each of the clubs compared to MVSA. We do this every year and have our own opinions about which clubs are charging more than we are comfortable with.

You should also be able to calculate the rough costs of running a team using the info above and some assumptions and you can calculate how much hosting tournaments saves them, and how much revenue they collect from other clubs.

After you read the returns, calculate the comparative fees for teams and then the cost of running a club, please share with us what you find.

One personal opinion--you said MVSA coaches "get involved with club volleyball for the love of volleyball, not to make a living." Every coach we've had with every club got involved in club volleyball for the love of the game. They all had day jobs, and they definitely weren't making a living from coaching volleyball. As a result, even the coaches that weren't great fits for us still had our respect because of the time and effort they put into the sport.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What has become readily apparent over the last couple of years (especially as of late) is that these DCUM forums have unfortunately become overrun by proxies for a whole bunch of different clubs. Whether these people are actual club directors for the club, coaches, or diehard loyalists, the end result is that these forums contain absolutely zero worthwhile (or truthful) information to help parents make decisions. Just in this forum I can see what appears to be Legacy's Club Director, a Metro loyalist who is always bolstering up Metro and criticizing Paramount, a Paramount loyalist who just talks about tournament finishes, and someone with broken English who likes to criticize Metro. This is just to name a few. How about everybody grows up, gets out of this anonymous online forum, and starts to live a life in the real world.

If you grew up, got out of this anonymous online forum, and started to live a life in the real world, we would not have had to read this message that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. There is a lot of good information on these threads, especially for people with limited experience in the world of club volleyball. There was no back-and-forth between the Metro and Paramount loyalists on this particular thread. I agree that Legacy's club director trying to ANSWER every single point with non-answers is a bit questionable - of course she will turn herself into a pretzel just to make the club look good.

I still have to read a good reason for the club fees in Virginia being so damn high. An excuse like "others charge the same" is not acceptable: why is it possible to charge more decent prices in MD? Just look how much MVSA charges for a roster of 10 players. It is absolutely fine if you want to pay the coaches: divide the coach stipend to the number of players and add it to the MVSA prices. I doubt that VA coaches are paid so much better than the MD coaches to justify the difference in fees. Do you need an admin because the club is too large? Divide the cost to the total number of club players. Most clubs (even MD clubs) don't have 10 player rosters, so the price per player should actually go down. It is likely that even MOCO or MEVC fees are a bit inflated, even though they look reasonable compared to the club fees in VA. The truth is that they found a business opportunity and they are milking it.

I agree it seems like VA fees trend higher than MD fees. That said, I think it's more fair to compare VA fees to Maryland clubs like MOCO, MEVC, or Maryland Juniors, rather than MVSA.

What MVSA has created over the course of more than 30 years is pretty unique and would be almost impossible to replicate if you started today. In addition to all volunteer coaches, MVSA practices almost exclusively in MCPS or rec center facilities. According to the MCPS website, gym rental at an MCPS school for a non-profit organization is $17 per hour (it’s $22.50 per hour for a for profit). Commercial facilities and private schools tend to be a lot more ($75-$100 per hour). Another thing MVSA does to offset costs is host a LOT of tournaments. These allow for their teams to have priority to play in these tournaments (and presumably they don’t pay tournament fees for their own events) as well as make some extra revenue to help offset other costs. Many teams will have parents help at practice or serve as assistant coaches. They also have connections with t-shirt printing companies and deals on gear that help keep their costs low on the limited gear that's included with the club fees. A lot of people are giving their time, expertise, experience, and connections without being paid to make what MVSA does possible.

It's pretty much a full time job for most of the year for a club director to run a club of even one team per age group. Most of the bigger clubs have at least one paid administrative person in addition to the director. Do these people not deserve to make a reasonable living from running their small business? Using MOCO as an example, their highest club fee for the upcoming season is $3600 for their older 1s teams. Their fees include: 3 jerseys, backpack, practice shirts, HUDL, coach pay, equipment and training supplies, 3 practices/week, strength & conditioning, skills clinics, program administration, and tournament entry fees. Honestly, $3600 seems like a pretty good deal considering they start practicing in late November/early December, go to some bigger tournaments (e.g., Capitol Hill, NEQ, and ECC) and continue to at least Memorial Day. And if some of that $3600 is profit for the club, isn't that reasonable?

I know that the MVSA model is hard to replicate when profit is more important than volleyball. I feel like we are now talking with a MOCO representative, who wants to place MOCO in a good light. Indeed, MOCO looks pretty good compared with VA clubs, but they still inflate their prices. I already gave room for clubs to add coach stipends and include an admin, so I will only address facility prices. Nothings stops a club from using MCPS facilities, the same way as MVSA does. If they are a for-profit club, they would pay $5 extra per hour, which is $0.50 per player for a 10 player roster. For a 2h practice 2x a week for 30 weeks, that would increase the fees / player by about $60 per season. MOCO has more than 10 players / roster, so less than $60 likely applies. MOCO has as many teams as MVSA, so they could negotiate with the t-shirt printing / gear companies the same way as MVSA does. I know that parents also contribute to MOCO coaching, but I am not sure whether they are paid or not.

PP here. Not a MOCO rep or parent - their fees just seem pretty reasonable so I chose them as an example. My point is that these are mostly small businesses and there are a lot of expenses in running a volleyball club. I personally don't fault a small business owner for wanting to make a reasonable living from their efforts. I suspect all of us paying these club fees advocate for ourselves to be fairly compensated for whatever it is that we do. And from my perspective, it appears that MOCO is trying to strike a balance between profit and volleyball. MVSA is run more like a charity which is great, but it does not seem realistic to use outliers like MVSA as the basis for arguing everyone else is too expensive.

I agree that some clubs (especially on the VA side of the Potomac) seem to be charging more than can be justified based on what they offer. There is also a trend for clubs that play in lower divisions or have less experienced players going to be going to more tournaments that are farther away which drives up costs. This was reflected in one of the responses from the pro-Legacy advocate who said "Never will I think 2’s players are “bad”…on the contrary there are PLENTY of 2’s players that have the ability to show their skills. They want to attend the BIG tournaments and as many of the BIG tournaments as the 1’s teams". My sense is that many of the parents of players of 2s team players at less competitive clubs would prefer to not pay more to go to Big South or Sunshine just for the experience.

I am using MVSA to figure out what it really costs to run a volleyball club. As far as I could tell, their coaches have a day job and get involved with club volleyball for the love of volleyball, not to make a living. I agreed that you can add coaches stipends and admin salary to those fees, but you would have to agree that you would not end up with the fees charged in VA (and likely the MD clubs also add some good profit to their bottom line).

14:38 PP here.

One question for you: What do you believe is an acceptable amount of income for a club, either as a % of revenue or as a total dollar amount?

I agree with you that some clubs are charging a lot more than seems reasonable (or at least we can afford). But in order to "speak up against their practices and call out their greed" we should probably agree on what greed looks like. What's your definition?

With that in mind, if you are using MVSA to figure out what it costs to run a volleyball club, its pretty easy. Another thread on DCUM showed us how to find a clubs non-profit filings. MVSA's public reporting is available at https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/811916976 and shows their revenue, costs and net income, along with their assets. You can look up a dozen or more CHRVA clubs there as well.

Obviously, you can't get that info on for-profit clubs but as that same thread points out, non-profit doesn't mean "makes no money" and for-profit doesn't mean "makes a lot of money", they're just tax statuses.

If you want to translate that public info into what an acceptable club fee is, you are welcome to use the data provided above on whats included or not included in each clubs fees to calculate the relative fees of each of the clubs compared to MVSA. We do this every year and have our own opinions about which clubs are charging more than we are comfortable with.

You should also be able to calculate the rough costs of running a team using the info above and some assumptions and you can calculate how much hosting tournaments saves them, and how much revenue they collect from other clubs.

After you read the returns, calculate the comparative fees for teams and then the cost of running a club, please share with us what you find.

One personal opinion--you said MVSA coaches "get involved with club volleyball for the love of volleyball, not to make a living." Every coach we've had with every club got involved in club volleyball for the love of the game. They all had day jobs, and they definitely weren't making a living from coaching volleyball. As a result, even the coaches that weren't great fits for us still had our respect because of the time and effort they put into the sport.

You seem to have some management experience because you are trying to delegate tasks to those you believe should do the work. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that some volleyball clubs charge way more than they should and you don't even need hard numbers. I don't have the "correct" answer to the question "how much profit should a club make?", but I can tell that many clubs charge outrageous fees and deliver poor outcomes. The goal of this discussion is to figure things out as a collective, not for one person to do the legwork.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What has become readily apparent over the last couple of years (especially as of late) is that these DCUM forums have unfortunately become overrun by proxies for a whole bunch of different clubs. Whether these people are actual club directors for the club, coaches, or diehard loyalists, the end result is that these forums contain absolutely zero worthwhile (or truthful) information to help parents make decisions. Just in this forum I can see what appears to be Legacy's Club Director, a Metro loyalist who is always bolstering up Metro and criticizing Paramount, a Paramount loyalist who just talks about tournament finishes, and someone with broken English who likes to criticize Metro. This is just to name a few. How about everybody grows up, gets out of this anonymous online forum, and starts to live a life in the real world.

If you grew up, got out of this anonymous online forum, and started to live a life in the real world, we would not have had to read this message that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. There is a lot of good information on these threads, especially for people with limited experience in the world of club volleyball. There was no back-and-forth between the Metro and Paramount loyalists on this particular thread. I agree that Legacy's club director trying to ANSWER every single point with non-answers is a bit questionable - of course she will turn herself into a pretzel just to make the club look good.

I still have to read a good reason for the club fees in Virginia being so damn high. An excuse like "others charge the same" is not acceptable: why is it possible to charge more decent prices in MD? Just look how much MVSA charges for a roster of 10 players. It is absolutely fine if you want to pay the coaches: divide the coach stipend to the number of players and add it to the MVSA prices. I doubt that VA coaches are paid so much better than the MD coaches to justify the difference in fees. Do you need an admin because the club is too large? Divide the cost to the total number of club players. Most clubs (even MD clubs) don't have 10 player rosters, so the price per player should actually go down. It is likely that even MOCO or MEVC fees are a bit inflated, even though they look reasonable compared to the club fees in VA. The truth is that they found a business opportunity and they are milking it.

I agree it seems like VA fees trend higher than MD fees. That said, I think it's more fair to compare VA fees to Maryland clubs like MOCO, MEVC, or Maryland Juniors, rather than MVSA.

What MVSA has created over the course of more than 30 years is pretty unique and would be almost impossible to replicate if you started today. In addition to all volunteer coaches, MVSA practices almost exclusively in MCPS or rec center facilities. According to the MCPS website, gym rental at an MCPS school for a non-profit organization is $17 per hour (it’s $22.50 per hour for a for profit). Commercial facilities and private schools tend to be a lot more ($75-$100 per hour). Another thing MVSA does to offset costs is host a LOT of tournaments. These allow for their teams to have priority to play in these tournaments (and presumably they don’t pay tournament fees for their own events) as well as make some extra revenue to help offset other costs. Many teams will have parents help at practice or serve as assistant coaches. They also have connections with t-shirt printing companies and deals on gear that help keep their costs low on the limited gear that's included with the club fees. A lot of people are giving their time, expertise, experience, and connections without being paid to make what MVSA does possible.

It's pretty much a full time job for most of the year for a club director to run a club of even one team per age group. Most of the bigger clubs have at least one paid administrative person in addition to the director. Do these people not deserve to make a reasonable living from running their small business? Using MOCO as an example, their highest club fee for the upcoming season is $3600 for their older 1s teams. Their fees include: 3 jerseys, backpack, practice shirts, HUDL, coach pay, equipment and training supplies, 3 practices/week, strength & conditioning, skills clinics, program administration, and tournament entry fees. Honestly, $3600 seems like a pretty good deal considering they start practicing in late November/early December, go to some bigger tournaments (e.g., Capitol Hill, NEQ, and ECC) and continue to at least Memorial Day. And if some of that $3600 is profit for the club, isn't that reasonable?

I know that the MVSA model is hard to replicate when profit is more important than volleyball. I feel like we are now talking with a MOCO representative, who wants to place MOCO in a good light. Indeed, MOCO looks pretty good compared with VA clubs, but they still inflate their prices. I already gave room for clubs to add coach stipends and include an admin, so I will only address facility prices. Nothings stops a club from using MCPS facilities, the same way as MVSA does. If they are a for-profit club, they would pay $5 extra per hour, which is $0.50 per player for a 10 player roster. For a 2h practice 2x a week for 30 weeks, that would increase the fees / player by about $60 per season. MOCO has more than 10 players / roster, so less than $60 likely applies. MOCO has as many teams as MVSA, so they could negotiate with the t-shirt printing / gear companies the same way as MVSA does. I know that parents also contribute to MOCO coaching, but I am not sure whether they are paid or not.

PP here. Not a MOCO rep or parent - their fees just seem pretty reasonable so I chose them as an example. My point is that these are mostly small businesses and there are a lot of expenses in running a volleyball club. I personally don't fault a small business owner for wanting to make a reasonable living from their efforts. I suspect all of us paying these club fees advocate for ourselves to be fairly compensated for whatever it is that we do. And from my perspective, it appears that MOCO is trying to strike a balance between profit and volleyball. MVSA is run more like a charity which is great, but it does not seem realistic to use outliers like MVSA as the basis for arguing everyone else is too expensive.

I agree that some clubs (especially on the VA side of the Potomac) seem to be charging more than can be justified based on what they offer. There is also a trend for clubs that play in lower divisions or have less experienced players going to be going to more tournaments that are farther away which drives up costs. This was reflected in one of the responses from the pro-Legacy advocate who said "Never will I think 2’s players are “bad”…on the contrary there are PLENTY of 2’s players that have the ability to show their skills. They want to attend the BIG tournaments and as many of the BIG tournaments as the 1’s teams". My sense is that many of the parents of players of 2s team players at less competitive clubs would prefer to not pay more to go to Big South or Sunshine just for the experience.

I am using MVSA to figure out what it really costs to run a volleyball club. As far as I could tell, their coaches have a day job and get involved with club volleyball for the love of volleyball, not to make a living. I agreed that you can add coaches stipends and admin salary to those fees, but you would have to agree that you would not end up with the fees charged in VA (and likely the MD clubs also add some good profit to their bottom line).

14:38 PP here.

One question for you: What do you believe is an acceptable amount of income for a club, either as a % of revenue or as a total dollar amount?

I agree with you that some clubs are charging a lot more than seems reasonable (or at least we can afford). But in order to "speak up against their practices and call out their greed" we should probably agree on what greed looks like. What's your definition?

With that in mind, if you are using MVSA to figure out what it costs to run a volleyball club, its pretty easy. Another thread on DCUM showed us how to find a clubs non-profit filings. MVSA's public reporting is available at https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/811916976 and shows their revenue, costs and net income, along with their assets. You can look up a dozen or more CHRVA clubs there as well.

Obviously, you can't get that info on for-profit clubs but as that same thread points out, non-profit doesn't mean "makes no money" and for-profit doesn't mean "makes a lot of money", they're just tax statuses.

If you want to translate that public info into what an acceptable club fee is, you are welcome to use the data provided above on whats included or not included in each clubs fees to calculate the relative fees of each of the clubs compared to MVSA. We do this every year and have our own opinions about which clubs are charging more than we are comfortable with.

You should also be able to calculate the rough costs of running a team using the info above and some assumptions and you can calculate how much hosting tournaments saves them, and how much revenue they collect from other clubs.

After you read the returns, calculate the comparative fees for teams and then the cost of running a club, please share with us what you find.

One personal opinion--you said MVSA coaches "get involved with club volleyball for the love of volleyball, not to make a living." Every coach we've had with every club got involved in club volleyball for the love of the game. They all had day jobs, and they definitely weren't making a living from coaching volleyball. As a result, even the coaches that weren't great fits for us still had our respect because of the time and effort they put into the sport.

You seem to have some management experience because you are trying to delegate tasks to those you believe should do the work. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that some volleyball clubs charge way more than they should and you don't even need hard numbers. I don't have the "correct" answer to the question "how much profit should a club make?", but I can tell that many clubs charge outrageous fees and deliver poor outcomes. The goal of this discussion is to figure things out as a collective, not for one person to do the legwork.

I don't know that there are "right" answers to any of these questions. There is definitely truth to the idea that this seems like a pretty simple free market situation. Clubs are free to charge what they want and we are free to choose to pay or find another club. If a club charges too much and doesn't deliver, then presumably the market will speak. I suspect a lack of results and rising costs are part of the reason that clubs like NVVA and Vienna Elite that were once considered among the better clubs in the region have fallen off in recent years.

Where this all gets sticky is that we all want to be able to give our kids the most opportunities possible and the idea that cost is a barrier is frustrating and seems unfair. If we can't afford to send our kids to an expensive private school, there are always public school options available but that isn't the case with club volleyball. If your DD is a promising player and wants to play in college but paying a club $6-7k in fees, plus all the travel costs, and other expenses don't fit in your budget, that's a tough spot to be in. And even if your expectations are lower, the demand for less expensive clubs like MVSA is high and making a team can be tough. If your DD doesn't make a team at one of the cheaper clubs, you might be stuck with alternatives that cost more but don't deliver a better experience.

Unfortunately, I don't know if there are any simple solutions. Is it reasonable to expect clubs to lower their fees and therefore their income for their own family, to be accessible to more people even though they don't have any trouble filling their teams every year? My advice would be to explore different options now for the upcoming season and then tryout for multiple clubs so that you hopefully have a few choices. Also, if your kids are on the younger side (say 13 or younger) it's probably fine to go to a less competitive (and hopefully less expensive) club for a few years and then if you decide a more competitive club would be better, you can switch later. If your DD turns out to be an exceptional player (or is tall or crazy athletic) the more competitive clubs will still want her at 14s or 15s.

(I know someone will say that based on my opinions, I must be a club director or otherwise associated with a club. For the record, I am only a parent who has been around club volleyball for a long time)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legacy Volleyball tryouts: https://legacyvba.sportngin.com/page/show/8695357-try-out-registration
Legacy Volleyball fees: https://legacyvba.sportngin.com/fees (summary: $5500, except $4800 for the 18s)
Legacy Volleyball schedule: https://legacyvba.sportngin.com/page/show/8695359-team-schedules

I don't have enough information to answer the following questions:
Is there too much travel for a new club? I feel like they are overly ambitious.
Will they be able to attract players with skills appropriate for the tournaments that they added on the schedule? I doubt it, but I am sure they will try hard to prove me wrong. It all depends who shows up at the tryouts and what other options those players have.
$5500? Why are VA clubs so greedy? How comes MD clubs can do it for almost half the price (even less if we include MVSA)? Is there a hidden VA fee that nobody knows about?

The most likely answer to all of these questions is a resounding "no." The Club Director doesn't even live in the area. She just moved out of the area this summer.

ANSWER:
While the club director did relocate she is extremely involved with her Assistant Director, Coaching Staff, Board, and Parents/Players (no matter if they choose to make Legacy VBA their home or not). She has helped tons of families around the country find their player(s) find a college/university home! Please do not pass judgment on a person you know ZERO about. Don’t put your bias off on this Director because of your past personal experiences. This Director eats, sleeps, and breathes volleyball. It behooves you or it’s in your BEST interest to check out her YOUTUBE CHANNEL: The Volley Truth

I think the advice to reserve judgment is fair, but I think it's also fair to be cautious with spending a large amount of money on an unproven club. I have no doubt the club director and coaches have the best intentions, but attracting full teams of players that are able to really compete at a high level to a first year club is ambitious. Players with that type of skill and experience will likely have options - it doesn't seem prudent for athletes like these to risk their money and a full season on a club with no track record. Sure the club director and coaches can point to successful teams that they have coached in the past, but it's a lot easier to be successful within an existing club, where there are usually a core group of experienced players that stay with a club from one season to the next. I do sincerely hope they prove me wrong though. There is a need for more quality clubs within CHRVA.

Interestingly Legacy opted to schedule tryout times on 11/1 that conflict directly with Metro Travel, Paramount and VA Jrs. Not a way to seek out top talent?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What has become readily apparent over the last couple of years (especially as of late) is that these DCUM forums have unfortunately become overrun by proxies for a whole bunch of different clubs. Whether these people are actual club directors for the club, coaches, or diehard loyalists, the end result is that these forums contain absolutely zero worthwhile (or truthful) information to help parents make decisions. Just in this forum I can see what appears to be Legacy's Club Director, a Metro loyalist who is always bolstering up Metro and criticizing Paramount, a Paramount loyalist who just talks about tournament finishes, and someone with broken English who likes to criticize Metro. This is just to name a few. How about everybody grows up, gets out of this anonymous online forum, and starts to live a life in the real world.

If you grew up, got out of this anonymous online forum, and started to live a life in the real world, we would not have had to read this message that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. There is a lot of good information on these threads, especially for people with limited experience in the world of club volleyball. There was no back-and-forth between the Metro and Paramount loyalists on this particular thread. I agree that Legacy's club director trying to ANSWER every single point with non-answers is a bit questionable - of course she will turn herself into a pretzel just to make the club look good.

I still have to read a good reason for the club fees in Virginia being so damn high. An excuse like "others charge the same" is not acceptable: why is it possible to charge more decent prices in MD? Just look how much MVSA charges for a roster of 10 players. It is absolutely fine if you want to pay the coaches: divide the coach stipend to the number of players and add it to the MVSA prices. I doubt that VA coaches are paid so much better than the MD coaches to justify the difference in fees. Do you need an admin because the club is too large? Divide the cost to the total number of club players. Most clubs (even MD clubs) don't have 10 player rosters, so the price per player should actually go down. It is likely that even MOCO or MEVC fees are a bit inflated, even though they look reasonable compared to the club fees in VA. The truth is that they found a business opportunity and they are milking it.

I agree it seems like VA fees trend higher than MD fees. That said, I think it's more fair to compare VA fees to Maryland clubs like MOCO, MEVC, or Maryland Juniors, rather than MVSA.

What MVSA has created over the course of more than 30 years is pretty unique and would be almost impossible to replicate if you started today. In addition to all volunteer coaches, MVSA practices almost exclusively in MCPS or rec center facilities. According to the MCPS website, gym rental at an MCPS school for a non-profit organization is $17 per hour (it’s $22.50 per hour for a for profit). Commercial facilities and private schools tend to be a lot more ($75-$100 per hour). Another thing MVSA does to offset costs is host a LOT of tournaments. These allow for their teams to have priority to play in these tournaments (and presumably they don’t pay tournament fees for their own events) as well as make some extra revenue to help offset other costs. Many teams will have parents help at practice or serve as assistant coaches. They also have connections with t-shirt printing companies and deals on gear that help keep their costs low on the limited gear that's included with the club fees. A lot of people are giving their time, expertise, experience, and connections without being paid to make what MVSA does possible.

It's pretty much a full time job for most of the year for a club director to run a club of even one team per age group. Most of the bigger clubs have at least one paid administrative person in addition to the director. Do these people not deserve to make a reasonable living from running their small business? Using MOCO as an example, their highest club fee for the upcoming season is $3600 for their older 1s teams. Their fees include: 3 jerseys, backpack, practice shirts, HUDL, coach pay, equipment and training supplies, 3 practices/week, strength & conditioning, skills clinics, program administration, and tournament entry fees. Honestly, $3600 seems like a pretty good deal considering they start practicing in late November/early December, go to some bigger tournaments (e.g., Capitol Hill, NEQ, and ECC) and continue to at least Memorial Day. And if some of that $3600 is profit for the club, isn't that reasonable?

I know that the MVSA model is hard to replicate when profit is more important than volleyball. I feel like we are now talking with a MOCO representative, who wants to place MOCO in a good light. Indeed, MOCO looks pretty good compared with VA clubs, but they still inflate their prices. I already gave room for clubs to add coach stipends and include an admin, so I will only address facility prices. Nothings stops a club from using MCPS facilities, the same way as MVSA does. If they are a for-profit club, they would pay $5 extra per hour, which is $0.50 per player for a 10 player roster. For a 2h practice 2x a week for 30 weeks, that would increase the fees / player by about $60 per season. MOCO has more than 10 players / roster, so less than $60 likely applies. MOCO has as many teams as MVSA, so they could negotiate with the t-shirt printing / gear companies the same way as MVSA does. I know that parents also contribute to MOCO coaching, but I am not sure whether they are paid or not.

PP here. Not a MOCO rep or parent - their fees just seem pretty reasonable so I chose them as an example. My point is that these are mostly small businesses and there are a lot of expenses in running a volleyball club. I personally don't fault a small business owner for wanting to make a reasonable living from their efforts. I suspect all of us paying these club fees advocate for ourselves to be fairly compensated for whatever it is that we do. And from my perspective, it appears that MOCO is trying to strike a balance between profit and volleyball. MVSA is run more like a charity which is great, but it does not seem realistic to use outliers like MVSA as the basis for arguing everyone else is too expensive.

I agree that some clubs (especially on the VA side of the Potomac) seem to be charging more than can be justified based on what they offer. There is also a trend for clubs that play in lower divisions or have less experienced players going to be going to more tournaments that are farther away which drives up costs. This was reflected in one of the responses from the pro-Legacy advocate who said "Never will I think 2’s players are “bad”…on the contrary there are PLENTY of 2’s players that have the ability to show their skills. They want to attend the BIG tournaments and as many of the BIG tournaments as the 1’s teams". My sense is that many of the parents of players of 2s team players at less competitive clubs would prefer to not pay more to go to Big South or Sunshine just for the experience.

I am using MVSA to figure out what it really costs to run a volleyball club. As far as I could tell, their coaches have a day job and get involved with club volleyball for the love of volleyball, not to make a living. I agreed that you can add coaches stipends and admin salary to those fees, but you would have to agree that you would not end up with the fees charged in VA (and likely the MD clubs also add some good profit to their bottom line).

14:38 PP here.

One question for you: What do you believe is an acceptable amount of income for a club, either as a % of revenue or as a total dollar amount?

I agree with you that some clubs are charging a lot more than seems reasonable (or at least we can afford). But in order to "speak up against their practices and call out their greed" we should probably agree on what greed looks like. What's your definition?

With that in mind, if you are using MVSA to figure out what it costs to run a volleyball club, its pretty easy. Another thread on DCUM showed us how to find a clubs non-profit filings. MVSA's public reporting is available at https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/811916976 and shows their revenue, costs and net income, along with their assets. You can look up a dozen or more CHRVA clubs there as well.

Obviously, you can't get that info on for-profit clubs but as that same thread points out, non-profit doesn't mean "makes no money" and for-profit doesn't mean "makes a lot of money", they're just tax statuses.

If you want to translate that public info into what an acceptable club fee is, you are welcome to use the data provided above on whats included or not included in each clubs fees to calculate the relative fees of each of the clubs compared to MVSA. We do this every year and have our own opinions about which clubs are charging more than we are comfortable with.

You should also be able to calculate the rough costs of running a team using the info above and some assumptions and you can calculate how much hosting tournaments saves them, and how much revenue they collect from other clubs.

After you read the returns, calculate the comparative fees for teams and then the cost of running a club, please share with us what you find.

One personal opinion--you said MVSA coaches "get involved with club volleyball for the love of volleyball, not to make a living." Every coach we've had with every club got involved in club volleyball for the love of the game. They all had day jobs, and they definitely weren't making a living from coaching volleyball. As a result, even the coaches that weren't great fits for us still had our respect because of the time and effort they put into the sport.

You seem to have some management experience because you are trying to delegate tasks to those you believe should do the work. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that some volleyball clubs charge way more than they should and you don't even need hard numbers. I don't have the "correct" answer to the question "how much profit should a club make?", but I can tell that many clubs charge outrageous fees and deliver poor outcomes. The goal of this discussion is to figure things out as a collective, not for one person to do the legwork.

I don't know that there are "right" answers to any of these questions. There is definitely truth to the idea that this seems like a pretty simple free market situation. Clubs are free to charge what they want and we are free to choose to pay or find another club. If a club charges too much and doesn't deliver, then presumably the market will speak. I suspect a lack of results and rising costs are part of the reason that clubs like NVVA and Vienna Elite that were once considered among the better clubs in the region have fallen off in recent years.

Where this all gets sticky is that we all want to be able to give our kids the most opportunities possible and the idea that cost is a barrier is frustrating and seems unfair. If we can't afford to send our kids to an expensive private school, there are always public school options available but that isn't the case with club volleyball. If your DD is a promising player and wants to play in college but paying a club $6-7k in fees, plus all the travel costs, and other expenses don't fit in your budget, that's a tough spot to be in. And even if your expectations are lower, the demand for less expensive clubs like MVSA is high and making a team can be tough. If your DD doesn't make a team at one of the cheaper clubs, you might be stuck with alternatives that cost more but don't deliver a better experience.

Unfortunately, I don't know if there are any simple solutions. Is it reasonable to expect clubs to lower their fees and therefore their income for their own family, to be accessible to more people even though they don't have any trouble filling their teams every year? My advice would be to explore different options now for the upcoming season and then tryout for multiple clubs so that you hopefully have a few choices. Also, if your kids are on the younger side (say 13 or younger) it's probably fine to go to a less competitive (and hopefully less expensive) club for a few years and then if you decide a more competitive club would be better, you can switch later. If your DD turns out to be an exceptional player (or is tall or crazy athletic) the more competitive clubs will still want her at 14s or 15s.

(I know someone will say that based on my opinions, I must be a club director or otherwise associated with a club. For the record, I am only a parent who has been around club volleyball for a long time)

With parents like you around, club directors don't even need to make their case, they only need to take the money to the bank. There is something else I can do besides not trying out for clubs that charge outrageous fees: call out their greed on platforms like this one. Change will not come if nobody wonders why clubs in Virginia are almost twice as expensive as clubs in MD.

[Anonymous]

The fact that there is so much talk around Legacy - a new club, says that they are on the right track. And the fact that people would enter this forum and attempt to discredit a club that they have not experienced is disheartening and points to the fact that operatives who have financial interests in other clubs may be attempting to spew lies so that they can fill their benches and tryouts with players who they know won't play. Which further underscores the point that the interest of such clubs is a few elite athletes and the rest is about revenue. So what tryouts are the same as other popular clubs, those clubs have little turnover and thereby add few people to their rosters. Many of these teams are only looking to add 1-2 players. But they want you to come try out "with the best" so that your tryout fee can build their revenue because let's face it, if one of those clubs has not been speaking to your athlete already they are not checking for them and your athlete will not make the team unless they are an undiscovered unicorn (a stellar athlete who's tall and athletic and has been hiding until tryouts). Youth sports is about equity - at whatever level of play. A few teams in the DMV have had the monopoly and thereby have become elite and extremely sought after - kudos to them and the athletes they trained. As families you don't have to wait for a club to discard you, you don't have to play down, you don't have to play on a second team, and you don't have to subject yourself to mediocre coaching. If someone had discouraged those larger clubs from starting then there would have been less access for those athletes. As the sport grows more athletes will need a place to play, and thanks to our lovely country that offers all the opportunity to start businesses and play sports wherever we choose, there should be more clubs to offer more girls the opportunity to compete. Try out season is like the Hunger Games, parents make sure you position your athlete for the best outcomes according to their goals and abilities.

[Anonymous]

All these posts about Legacy have sparked our interest. I am a typical parent, still fairly new and it will be the first year where my daughter is interested in more competitive clubs. Going to clinics has been discouraging. There are so many girls at all of them. They are all good. I like that new clubs are forming. Unfortunately she’s already registered for tryouts during their two sessions but we will surely be looking to see if they have additional makeup options. We hope more clubs form in the future. The demand is there.

[Anonymous]

LEGACY TRYOUTS:
14U:
Oct 25th 6-8:30pm
Oct 26th 3:30-5:30pm

15U-17U:
Nov 1st 6-8:30pm
Nov 2nd 3:30-5:30pm

***MAKEUP DAY***:
NOVEMBER 3rd: 1:30-3pm

Check the website as well for other clinics!

You can also FOLLOW LEGACY on IG & FB

[Anonymous]

Hey, Legacy, can you explain the structure of the club fees? Break it down for me to see where the money goes. What is the item that increases your fees way above those of more established clubs in MD? What is it that you have to pay for that they don't have to? If you leave this question unanswered, I will doubt that you have the best interest of my athlete at heart, it feels like you care more about your bottom line.

I still don't understand the philosophy of making a team of players who are not performing that well in other clubs. There is a reason why the players in the second teams didn't make the top teams. Do you expect them to earn a bid, when it is hard enough for the top teams to earn one? I am not as excited as the 21:31 "parent" - I will sit this one out and watch the first season. Your willingness to gamble with parents' money and place your teams in the uncomfortable position where they will be outmatched are at least questionable. To put it nicely, your plan is very ambitious and overly optimistic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All these posts about Legacy have sparked our interest. I am a typical parent, still fairly new and it will be the first year where my daughter is interested in more competitive clubs. Going to clinics has been discouraging. There are so many girls at all of them. They are all good. I like that new clubs are forming. Unfortunately she’s already registered for tryouts during their two sessions but we will surely be looking to see if they have additional makeup options. We hope more clubs form in the future. The demand is there.

Are you a typical parent? Do you have a typical daughter? Do you work a typical job? Do you live in a typical house and drive a typical car? Those who answered "yes" to some or all of these questions should try out for a typical club. Legacy will take your player to 3 qualifiers (whether she is ready or not), but not before they slap you with a typical $5500 bill (which they don't bother to justify).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these posts about Legacy have sparked our interest. I am a typical parent, still fairly new and it will be the first year where my daughter is interested in more competitive clubs. Going to clinics has been discouraging. There are so many girls at all of them. They are all good. I like that new clubs are forming. Unfortunately she’s already registered for tryouts during their two sessions but we will surely be looking to see if they have additional makeup options. We hope more clubs form in the future. The demand is there.

Are you a typical parent? Do you have a typical daughter? Do you work a typical job? Do you live in a typical house and drive a typical car? Those who answered "yes" to some or all of these questions should try out for a typical club. Legacy will take your player to 3 qualifiers (whether she is ready or not), but not before they slap you with a typical $5500 bill (which they don't bother to justify).

Every club DD is trying out for us unfortunately about that price. That’s what most cost in VA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All these posts about Legacy have sparked our interest. I am a typical parent, still fairly new and it will be the first year where my daughter is interested in more competitive clubs. Going to clinics has been discouraging. There are so many girls at all of them. They are all good. I like that new clubs are forming. Unfortunately she’s already registered for tryouts during their two sessions but we will surely be looking to see if they have additional makeup options. We hope more clubs form in the future. The demand is there.

Are you a typical parent? Do you have a typical daughter? Do you work a typical job? Do you live in a typical house and drive a typical car? Those who answered "yes" to some or all of these questions should try out for a typical club. Legacy will take your player to 3 qualifiers (whether she is ready or not), but not before they slap you with a typical $5500 bill (which they don't bother to justify).

Every club DD is trying out for us unfortunately about that price. That’s what most cost in VA.

Does that mean that they are excused from justifying their fees? That's very convenient (for them), but it doesn't explain their fee structure.

[Anonymous]

Academy posted their tryout schedule - apparently they will have teams at each of the 12-17 age level. I couldn't find the fees on their website, not even those from the last year.
https://academy-volleyball.sportngin.com/tryouts
If you are starting volleyball, this could be your "safe" club.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What has become readily apparent over the last couple of years (especially as of late) is that these DCUM forums have unfortunately become overrun by proxies for a whole bunch of different clubs. Whether these people are actual club directors for the club, coaches, or diehard loyalists, the end result is that these forums contain absolutely zero worthwhile (or truthful) information to help parents make decisions. Just in this forum I can see what appears to be Legacy's Club Director, a Metro loyalist who is always bolstering up Metro and criticizing Paramount, a Paramount loyalist who just talks about tournament finishes, and someone with broken English who likes to criticize Metro. This is just to name a few. How about everybody grows up, gets out of this anonymous online forum, and starts to live a life in the real world.

If you grew up, got out of this anonymous online forum, and started to live a life in the real world, we would not have had to read this message that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. There is a lot of good information on these threads, especially for people with limited experience in the world of club volleyball. There was no back-and-forth between the Metro and Paramount loyalists on this particular thread. I agree that Legacy's club director trying to ANSWER every single point with non-answers is a bit questionable - of course she will turn herself into a pretzel just to make the club look good.

I still have to read a good reason for the club fees in Virginia being so damn high. An excuse like "others charge the same" is not acceptable: why is it possible to charge more decent prices in MD? Just look how much MVSA charges for a roster of 10 players. It is absolutely fine if you want to pay the coaches: divide the coach stipend to the number of players and add it to the MVSA prices. I doubt that VA coaches are paid so much better than the MD coaches to justify the difference in fees. Do you need an admin because the club is too large? Divide the cost to the total number of club players. Most clubs (even MD clubs) don't have 10 player rosters, so the price per player should actually go down. It is likely that even MOCO or MEVC fees are a bit inflated, even though they look reasonable compared to the club fees in VA. The truth is that they found a business opportunity and they are milking it.

I agree it seems like VA fees trend higher than MD fees. That said, I think it's more fair to compare VA fees to Maryland clubs like MOCO, MEVC, or Maryland Juniors, rather than MVSA.

What MVSA has created over the course of more than 30 years is pretty unique and would be almost impossible to replicate if you started today. In addition to all volunteer coaches, MVSA practices almost exclusively in MCPS or rec center facilities. According to the MCPS website, gym rental at an MCPS school for a non-profit organization is $17 per hour (it’s $22.50 per hour for a for profit). Commercial facilities and private schools tend to be a lot more ($75-$100 per hour). Another thing MVSA does to offset costs is host a LOT of tournaments. These allow for their teams to have priority to play in these tournaments (and presumably they don’t pay tournament fees for their own events) as well as make some extra revenue to help offset other costs. Many teams will have parents help at practice or serve as assistant coaches. They also have connections with t-shirt printing companies and deals on gear that help keep their costs low on the limited gear that's included with the club fees. A lot of people are giving their time, expertise, experience, and connections without being paid to make what MVSA does possible.

It's pretty much a full time job for most of the year for a club director to run a club of even one team per age group. Most of the bigger clubs have at least one paid administrative person in addition to the director. Do these people not deserve to make a reasonable living from running their small business? Using MOCO as an example, their highest club fee for the upcoming season is $3600 for their older 1s teams. Their fees include: 3 jerseys, backpack, practice shirts, HUDL, coach pay, equipment and training supplies, 3 practices/week, strength & conditioning, skills clinics, program administration, and tournament entry fees. Honestly, $3600 seems like a pretty good deal considering they start practicing in late November/early December, go to some bigger tournaments (e.g., Capitol Hill, NEQ, and ECC) and continue to at least Memorial Day. And if some of that $3600 is profit for the club, isn't that reasonable?

I know that the MVSA model is hard to replicate when profit is more important than volleyball. I feel like we are now talking with a MOCO representative, who wants to place MOCO in a good light. Indeed, MOCO looks pretty good compared with VA clubs, but they still inflate their prices. I already gave room for clubs to add coach stipends and include an admin, so I will only address facility prices. Nothings stops a club from using MCPS facilities, the same way as MVSA does. If they are a for-profit club, they would pay $5 extra per hour, which is $0.50 per player for a 10 player roster. For a 2h practice 2x a week for 30 weeks, that would increase the fees / player by about $60 per season. MOCO has more than 10 players / roster, so less than $60 likely applies. MOCO has as many teams as MVSA, so they could negotiate with the t-shirt printing / gear companies the same way as MVSA does. I know that parents also contribute to MOCO coaching, but I am not sure whether they are paid or not.

Not the PP, but someone who does care about the cost of club volleyball.

After years of trying to figure out club prices, here is the spreadsheet we put together every year as we look at clubs based on their public info. None of the below is intended to be negative or positive about any club.

For example, four MD clubs had a their top U14 team in the top 12 in the region last year: Columbia, MD Jrs, MOCO and MVSA.

Base Fees: Columbia-$4,300, MDJrs-$4,850, MOCO-$3,600, MVSA-$2,050
Players/team (last season): Columbia-13, MD Jrs-13, MOCO-11, MVSA-10
Practices/week: Columbia-3, MOCO-3, MDJrs-3, MVSA-2
Uniforms: Columbia-No ($not specified), MD Jrs-No ($290), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Balltime/HUDL Video (1): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No
Skills clinics/academy: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Coach Travel Covered: Columbia-Yes, Md Jrs-No (min $200 deposit), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Coach Stipend Covered: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-N/A
Strength & Conditioning (2): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No

Tournament schedules (3) (based off last year with updates for this year)
# of travel tournaments, excluding nationals (overnight stay): Columbia-8*, MD Jrs-4, MOCO-6, MVSA-4
# of Multi-day non-travel tournaments: Columbia-2, MD Jrs-2, MOCO-4, MVSA-3
# of local one day tournaments: Columbia-2, MD JRs-4, MOCO-2, MVSA-6
Nationals Included (USAV/AAU): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Not specified (past years this was an add-on)
Total # of Tournaments: Columbia-12, MD JRs-12**, MOCO-13, MVSA-13

* Columbia say they attend 10 multi-day travel tournaments but their schedule shows only 8.
** MDJrs schedule is missing a couple of tournaments, and their count includes their internal club tournament.

1-HUDL/Balltime public prices are $1,600 for HUDL, $2,400 for Balltime. Clubs likely get a discount on these prices.
2-Strength & Conditioning prices are variable, but average $30-$40/hr at a fitness center in small group and higher in individual training. Clubs likely get a discount on this price
3-Tournament costs are public info, check AES or Sportwrench. Generally, 2 day local tournaments and 2 day day travel tournament registration costs ~2x a 1 day tournament. 3 day travel tournaments cost ~2.5x at 1 day tournament. Nationals costs ~$1,000 for the team entry.
The # of practices and clinics, strength training, video, and multi-day tournaments have a big impact on the relative price of clubs. You can choose if you value those things or not.

Hope this helps someone make objective comparisons of club fees. This same approach should work for any club/team you want to compare. Feel free to add more cost areas if anything is missing.

This is truly great information, and it's much appreciated that you took the time to do all this research and share this. The comment that is incoming isn't directed at you, but just a response to the people who are complaining about the prices in general. This is the free market, and some club people do this for a living. Just like any person would advocate for the most competitive salary, why can't clubs do the same with their tuitions? If parents don't believe that a club's price tag is justified, they can simply choose a club that is less expensive. There are some clubs (namely Metro and Paramount) whose price tag is justified given the platform and opportunities these clubs provide their athletes (especially in the form of athletic scholarships to D1 schools). However, I don't see any other club in the area whose accomplishments could justify any parent paying $5,000+. However, in the free market of CHRVA volleyball, what plays out every year is that there are families who are willing to pay the price tag.

I believe you are correct - they are allowed to charge whatever they want. But I also have the right to speak up against their practices and call out their greed. You may consider that free market is what should guide us, I believe free speech allows me to call them out. I am curious though, why would you try to protect their interest and try to shut down the conversation based on a free market arguments?

NP—
But I am curious about your question. I feel like you must be younger than GenX for this to be your mindset. Because yes—the concept of the free market is a fundamental guiding principle of a capitalist society. Which you clearly either don’t understand or don’t support.
That’s fine if you acknowledge that, but then that’s you “shutting down” the very logical explanation PP provided as to why things are the way they are in pricing. Supply/demand is a very real concept in a free market society that offers concrete explanation.
It’s fascinating that you use the justification of “free speech” to support your argument for “calling out greed” but then characterize the other person’s speech in support of the free market as an attempt to “shut down the conversation”???
Interesting.

[Anonymous]

It is interesting to look into the writing habits of one of the posters who plays defense for LVA around here. I am willing to bet that the posts 09/30/2024 23:33 ("Rooting for LVA"), 10/02/2024 20:17 ("LVA is on the right track"), 10/02/2024 21:31 (the "typical parent") are all written by the same person.