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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]What has become readily apparent over the last couple of years (especially as of late) is that these DCUM forums have unfortunately become overrun by proxies for a whole bunch of different clubs. Whether these people are actual club directors for the club, coaches, or diehard loyalists, the end result is that these forums contain absolutely zero worthwhile (or truthful) information to help parents make decisions. Just in this forum I can see what appears to be Legacy's Club Director, a Metro loyalist who is always bolstering up Metro and criticizing Paramount, a Paramount loyalist who just talks about tournament finishes, and someone with broken English who likes to criticize Metro. This is just to name a few. [b]How about everybody grows up, gets out of this anonymous online forum, and starts to live a life in the real world.[/b] [/quote]

If you grew up, got out of this anonymous online forum, and started to live a life in the real world, we would not have had to read this message that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. There is a lot of good information on these threads, especially for people with limited experience in the world of club volleyball. There was no back-and-forth between the Metro and Paramount loyalists on this particular thread. I agree that Legacy's club director trying to ANSWER every single point with non-answers is a bit questionable - of course she will turn herself into a pretzel just to make the club look good.

I still have to read a good reason for the club fees in Virginia being so damn high. An excuse like "others charge the same" is not acceptable: why is it possible to charge more decent prices in MD? Just look how much MVSA charges for a roster of 10 players. It is absolutely fine if you want to pay the coaches: divide the coach stipend to the number of players and add it to the MVSA prices. I doubt that VA coaches are paid so much better than the MD coaches to justify the difference in fees. Do you need an admin because the club is too large? Divide the cost to the total number of club players. Most clubs (even MD clubs) don't have 10 player rosters, so the price per player should actually go down. It is likely that even MOCO or MEVC fees are a bit inflated, even though they look reasonable compared to the club fees in VA. The truth is that they found a business opportunity and they are milking it. [/quote]

I agree it seems like VA fees trend higher than MD fees. That said, I think it's more fair to compare VA fees to Maryland clubs like MOCO, MEVC, or Maryland Juniors, rather than MVSA.

What MVSA has created over the course of more than 30 years is pretty unique and would be almost impossible to replicate if you started today. In addition to all volunteer coaches, MVSA practices almost exclusively in MCPS or rec center facilities. According to the MCPS website, gym rental at an MCPS school for a non-profit organization is $17 per hour (it’s $22.50 per hour for a for profit). Commercial facilities and private schools tend to be a lot more ($75-$100 per hour). Another thing MVSA does to offset costs is host a LOT of tournaments. These allow for their teams to have priority to play in these tournaments (and presumably they don’t pay tournament fees for their own events) as well as make some extra revenue to help offset other costs. Many teams will have parents help at practice or serve as assistant coaches. They also have connections with t-shirt printing companies and deals on gear that help keep their costs low on the limited gear that's included with the club fees. A lot of people are giving their time, expertise, experience, and connections without being paid to make what MVSA does possible.

It's pretty much a full time job for most of the year for a club director to run a club of even one team per age group. Most of the bigger clubs have at least one paid administrative person in addition to the director. Do these people not deserve to make a reasonable living from running their small business? Using MOCO as an example, their highest club fee for the upcoming season is $3600 for their older 1s teams. Their fees include: 3 jerseys, backpack, practice shirts, HUDL, coach pay, equipment and training supplies, 3 practices/week, strength & conditioning, skills clinics, program administration, and tournament entry fees. Honestly, $3600 seems like a pretty good deal considering they start practicing in late November/early December, go to some bigger tournaments (e.g., Capitol Hill, NEQ, and ECC) and continue to at least Memorial Day. And if some of that $3600 is profit for the club, isn't that reasonable? [/quote]

I know that the MVSA model is hard to replicate when profit is more important than volleyball. I feel like we are now talking with a MOCO representative, who wants to place MOCO in a good light. Indeed, MOCO looks pretty good compared with VA clubs, but they still inflate their prices. I already gave room for clubs to add coach stipends and include an admin, so I will only address facility prices. Nothings stops a club from using MCPS facilities, the same way as MVSA does. If they are a for-profit club, they would pay $5 extra per hour, which is $0.50 per player for a 10 player roster. For a 2h practice 2x a week for 30 weeks, that would increase the fees / player by about $60 per season. MOCO has more than 10 players / roster, so less than $60 likely applies. MOCO has as many teams as MVSA, so they could negotiate with the t-shirt printing / gear companies the same way as MVSA does. I know that parents also contribute to MOCO coaching, but I am not sure whether they are paid or not. [/quote]
PP here. Not a MOCO rep or parent - their fees just seem pretty reasonable so I chose them as an example. My point is that these are mostly small businesses and there are a lot of expenses in running a volleyball club. I personally don't fault a small business owner for wanting to make a reasonable living from their efforts. I suspect all of us paying these club fees advocate for ourselves to be fairly compensated for whatever it is that we do. And from my perspective, it appears that MOCO is trying to strike a balance between profit and volleyball. [b]MVSA is run more like a charity which is great, but it does not seem realistic to use outliers like MVSA as the basis for arguing everyone else is too expensive[/b].

I agree that some clubs (especially on the VA side of the Potomac) seem to be charging more than can be justified based on what they offer. There is also a trend for clubs that play in lower divisions or have less experienced players going to be going to more tournaments that are farther away which drives up costs. This was reflected in one of the responses from the pro-Legacy advocate who said "Never will I think 2’s players are “bad”…on the contrary there are PLENTY of 2’s players that have the ability to show their skills. They want to attend the BIG tournaments and as many of the BIG tournaments as the 1’s teams".  My sense is that many of the parents of players of 2s team players at less competitive clubs would prefer to not pay more to go to Big South or Sunshine just for the experience. 
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I am using MVSA to figure out what it really costs to run a volleyball club. As far as I could tell, their coaches have a day job and get involved with club volleyball for the love of volleyball, not to make a living. I agreed that you can add coaches stipends and admin salary to those fees, but you would have to agree that you would not end up with the fees charged in VA (and likely the MD clubs also add some good profit to their bottom line). [/quote]

14:38 PP here.

One question for you: What do you believe is an acceptable amount of income for a club, either as a % of revenue or as a total dollar amount?

I agree with you that some clubs are charging a lot more than seems reasonable (or at least we can afford). But in order to "speak up against their practices and call out their greed" we should probably agree on what greed looks like. What's your definition?

With that in mind, if you are using MVSA to figure out what it costs to run a volleyball club, its pretty easy.  Another thread on DCUM showed us how to find a clubs non-profit filings.  MVSA's public reporting is available at [url]https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/811916976[/url] and shows their revenue, costs and net income, along with their assets.  You can look up a dozen or more CHRVA clubs there as well.

Obviously, you can't get that info on for-profit clubs but as that same thread points out, non-profit doesn't mean "makes no money" and for-profit doesn't mean "makes a lot of money", they're just tax statuses.

If you want to translate that public info into what an acceptable club fee is, you are welcome to use the data provided above on whats included or not included in each clubs fees to calculate the relative fees of each of the clubs compared to MVSA. We do this every year and have our own opinions about which clubs are charging more than we are comfortable with.

You should also be able to calculate the rough costs of running a team using the info above and some assumptions and you can calculate how much hosting tournaments saves them, and how much revenue they collect from other clubs.

[b]After you read the returns, calculate the comparative fees for teams and then the cost of running a club, please share with us what you find.[/b]

One personal opinion--you said MVSA coaches "get involved with club volleyball for the love of volleyball, not to make a living." Every coach we've had with every club got involved in club volleyball for the love of the game. They all had day jobs, and they definitely weren't making a living from coaching volleyball. As a result, even the coaches that weren't great fits for us still had our respect because of the time and effort they put into the sport.[/quote]

You seem to have some management experience because you are trying to delegate tasks to those you believe should do the work. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that some volleyball clubs charge way more than they should and you don't even need hard numbers. I don't have the "correct" answer to the question "how much profit should a club make?", but I can tell that many clubs charge outrageous fees and deliver poor outcomes. The goal of this discussion is to figure things out as a collective, not for one person to do the legwork. [/quote]
I don't know that there are "right" answers to any of these questions. There is definitely truth to the idea that this seems like a pretty simple free market situation. Clubs are free to charge what they want and we are free to choose to pay or find another club. If a club charges too much and doesn't deliver, then presumably the market will speak. I suspect a lack of results and rising costs are part of the reason that clubs like NVVA and Vienna Elite that were once considered among the better clubs in the region have fallen off in recent years.

Where this all gets sticky is that we all want to be able to give our kids the most opportunities possible and the idea that cost is a barrier is frustrating and seems unfair. If we can't afford to send our kids to an expensive private school, there are always public school options available but that isn't the case with club volleyball. If your DD is a promising player and wants to play in college but paying a club $6-7k in fees, plus all the travel costs, and other expenses don't fit in your budget, that's a tough spot to be in. And even if your expectations are lower, the demand for less expensive clubs like MVSA is high and making a team can be tough. If your DD doesn't make a team at one of the cheaper clubs, you might be stuck with alternatives that cost more but don't deliver a better experience.

Unfortunately, I don't know if there are any simple solutions. Is it reasonable to expect clubs to lower their fees and therefore their income for their own family, to be accessible to more people even though they don't have any trouble filling their teams every year?  My advice would be to explore different options now for the upcoming season and then tryout for multiple clubs so that you hopefully have a few choices. Also, if your kids are on the younger side (say 13 or younger) it's probably fine to go to a less competitive (and hopefully less expensive) club for a few years and then if you decide a more competitive club would be better, you can switch later. If your DD turns out to be an exceptional player (or is tall or crazy athletic) the more competitive clubs will still want her at 14s or 15s.

(I know someone will say that based on my opinions, I must be a club director or otherwise associated with a club. For the record, I am only a parent who has been around club volleyball for a long time) 
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