Volleyball Action
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Anonymous
Not sure who made this comment about changes being good. But to me it sounds like Paramount only cares for result and not its players. I really hope that’s not the case. But whoever wrote that changes were good, I’m disappointed in your logic. |
Anonymous
I agree that we are likely dealing with the club director working remotely on DCUM. The answers were clearly not satisfactory and I would personally not risk one year of club with a club that has no history (especially at that cost). The best players in the region already have options and none of those options are called Legacy. I predict that Legacy will end up with second or third tier players who will fold during those qualifiers and it will likely not earn a bid. That's not how you change the status quo, that's how you get your teams frustrated. |
Anonymous
Do people not understand how hard it is to finish top 5 at USAV GJNC for a CHRVA team? There have only been 5 total teams in CHRVA history that have ever finished 3rd or better (three of these were Metro teams, including a 2nd place finish in the national division for Metro 16 travel a few years ago). To put a 5th place finish in the National Division into perspective, Metro 17 Travel finished 33rd in the National Division at the 2024 GJNC, and Metro 13 Travel finished 29th in the 13 National Division. |
Anonymous
Don’t think anyone is arguing how hard it is to achieve this. But results shouldn’t justify any negativity that might have caused players to just quit mid season. That’s all. |
Anonymous
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Anonymous
| What has become readily apparent over the last couple of years (especially as of late) is that these DCUM forums have unfortunately become overrun by proxies for a whole bunch of different clubs. Whether these people are actual club directors for the club, coaches, or diehard loyalists, the end result is that these forums contain absolutely zero worthwhile (or truthful) information to help parents make decisions. Just in this forum I can see what appears to be Legacy's Club Director, a Metro loyalist who is always bolstering up Metro and criticizing Paramount, a Paramount loyalist who just talks about tournament finishes, and someone with broken English who likes to criticize Metro. This is just to name a few. How about everybody grows up, gets out of this anonymous online forum, and starts to live a life in the real world. |
Anonymous
If you grew up, got out of this anonymous online forum, and started to live a life in the real world, we would not have had to read this message that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. There is a lot of good information on these threads, especially for people with limited experience in the world of club volleyball. There was no back-and-forth between the Metro and Paramount loyalists on this particular thread. I agree that Legacy's club director trying to ANSWER every single point with non-answers is a bit questionable - of course she will turn herself into a pretzel just to make the club look good. I still have to read a good reason for the club fees in Virginia being so damn high. An excuse like "others charge the same" is not acceptable: why is it possible to charge more decent prices in MD? Just look how much MVSA charges for a roster of 10 players. It is absolutely fine if you want to pay the coaches: divide the coach stipend to the number of players and add it to the MVSA prices. I doubt that VA coaches are paid so much better than the MD coaches to justify the difference in fees. Do you need an admin because the club is too large? Divide the cost to the total number of club players. Most clubs (even MD clubs) don't have 10 player rosters, so the price per player should actually go down. It is likely that even MOCO or MEVC fees are a bit inflated, even though they look reasonable compared to the club fees in VA. The truth is that they found a business opportunity and they are milking it. |
Anonymous
I agree it seems like VA fees trend higher than MD fees. That said, I think it's more fair to compare VA fees to Maryland clubs like MOCO, MEVC, or Maryland Juniors, rather than MVSA. What MVSA has created over the course of more than 30 years is pretty unique and would be almost impossible to replicate if you started today. In addition to all volunteer coaches, MVSA practices almost exclusively in MCPS or rec center facilities. According to the MCPS website, gym rental at an MCPS school for a non-profit organization is $17 per hour (it’s $22.50 per hour for a for profit). Commercial facilities and private schools tend to be a lot more ($75-$100 per hour). Another thing MVSA does to offset costs is host a LOT of tournaments. These allow for their teams to have priority to play in these tournaments (and presumably they don’t pay tournament fees for their own events) as well as make some extra revenue to help offset other costs. Many teams will have parents help at practice or serve as assistant coaches. They also have connections with t-shirt printing companies and deals on gear that help keep their costs low on the limited gear that's included with the club fees. A lot of people are giving their time, expertise, experience, and connections without being paid to make what MVSA does possible. It's pretty much a full time job for most of the year for a club director to run a club of even one team per age group. Most of the bigger clubs have at least one paid administrative person in addition to the director. Do these people not deserve to make a reasonable living from running their small business? Using MOCO as an example, their highest club fee for the upcoming season is $3600 for their older 1s teams. Their fees include: 3 jerseys, backpack, practice shirts, HUDL, coach pay, equipment and training supplies, 3 practices/week, strength & conditioning, skills clinics, program administration, and tournament entry fees. Honestly, $3600 seems like a pretty good deal considering they start practicing in late November/early December, go to some bigger tournaments (e.g., Capitol Hill, NEQ, and ECC) and continue to at least Memorial Day. And if some of that $3600 is profit for the club, isn't that reasonable? |
Anonymous
I know that the MVSA model is hard to replicate when profit is more important than volleyball. I feel like we are now talking with a MOCO representative, who wants to place MOCO in a good light. Indeed, MOCO looks pretty good compared with VA clubs, but they still inflate their prices. I already gave room for clubs to add coach stipends and include an admin, so I will only address facility prices. Nothings stops a club from using MCPS facilities, the same way as MVSA does. If they are a for-profit club, they would pay $5 extra per hour, which is $0.50 per player for a 10 player roster. For a 2h practice 2x a week for 30 weeks, that would increase the fees / player by about $60 per season. MOCO has more than 10 players / roster, so less than $60 likely applies. MOCO has as many teams as MVSA, so they could negotiate with the t-shirt printing / gear companies the same way as MVSA does. I know that parents also contribute to MOCO coaching, but I am not sure whether they are paid or not. |
Anonymous
PP here. Not a MOCO rep or parent - their fees just seem pretty reasonable so I chose them as an example. My point is that these are mostly small businesses and there are a lot of expenses in running a volleyball club. I personally don't fault a small business owner for wanting to make a reasonable living from their efforts. I suspect all of us paying these club fees advocate for ourselves to be fairly compensated for whatever it is that we do. And from my perspective, it appears that MOCO is trying to strike a balance between profit and volleyball. MVSA is run more like a charity which is great, but it does not seem realistic to use outliers like MVSA as the basis for arguing everyone else is too expensive. I agree that some clubs (especially on the VA side of the Potomac) seem to be charging more than can be justified based on what they offer. There is also a trend for clubs that play in lower divisions or have less experienced players going to be going to more tournaments that are farther away which drives up costs. This was reflected in one of the responses from the pro-Legacy advocate who said "Never will I think 2’s players are “bad”…on the contrary there are PLENTY of 2’s players that have the ability to show their skills. They want to attend the BIG tournaments and as many of the BIG tournaments as the 1’s teams". My sense is that many of the parents of players of 2s team players at less competitive clubs would prefer to not pay more to go to Big South or Sunshine just for the experience. |
Anonymous
Coach Nick's temper and theatrics are well known and embarrassing. He also has favorites and blames other players if a favorite of his makes a mistake. It's really unhealthy and messed up. |
Anonymous
Not the PP, but someone who does care about the cost of club volleyball. After years of trying to figure out club prices, here is the spreadsheet we put together every year as we look at clubs based on their public info. None of the below is intended to be negative or positive about any club. For example, four MD clubs had a their top U14 team in the top 12 in the region last year: Columbia, MD Jrs, MOCO and MVSA. Base Fees: Columbia-$4,300, MDJrs-$4,850, MOCO-$3,600, MVSA-$2,050 Players/team (last season): Columbia-13, MD Jrs-13, MOCO-11, MVSA-10 Practices/week: Columbia-3, MOCO-3, MDJrs-3, MVSA-2 Uniforms: Columbia-No ($not specified), MD Jrs-No ($290), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes Balltime/HUDL Video (1): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No Skills clinics/academy: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes Coach Travel Covered: Columbia-Yes, Md Jrs-No (min $200 deposit), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes Coach Stipend Covered: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-N/A Strength & Conditioning (2): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No Tournament schedules (3) (based off last year with updates for this year) # of travel tournaments, excluding nationals (overnight stay): Columbia-8*, MD Jrs-4, MOCO-6, MVSA-4 # of Multi-day non-travel tournaments: Columbia-2, MD Jrs-2, MOCO-4, MVSA-3 # of local one day tournaments: Columbia-2, MD JRs-4, MOCO-2, MVSA-6 Nationals Included (USAV/AAU): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Not specified (past years this was an add-on) Total # of Tournaments: Columbia-12, MD JRs-12**, MOCO-13, MVSA-13 * Columbia say they attend 10 multi-day travel tournaments but their schedule shows only 8. ** MDJrs schedule is missing a couple of tournaments, and their count includes their internal club tournament. 1-HUDL/Balltime public prices are $1,600 for HUDL, $2,400 for Balltime. Clubs likely get a discount on these prices. 2-Strength & Conditioning prices are variable, but average $30-$40/hr at a fitness center in small group and higher in individual training. Clubs likely get a discount on this price 3-Tournament costs are public info, check AES or Sportwrench. Generally, 2 day local tournaments and 2 day day travel tournament registration costs ~2x a 1 day tournament. 3 day travel tournaments cost ~2.5x at 1 day tournament. Nationals costs ~$1,000 for the team entry. The # of practices and clinics, strength training, video, and multi-day tournaments have a big impact on the relative price of clubs. You can choose if you value those things or not. Hope this helps someone make objective comparisons of club fees. This same approach should work for any club/team you want to compare. Feel free to add more cost areas if anything is missing. |
Anonymous
This is truly great information, and it's much appreciated that you took the time to do all this research and share this. The comment that is incoming isn't directed at you, but just a response to the people who are complaining about the prices in general. This is the free market, and some club people do this for a living. Just like any person would advocate for the most competitive salary, why can't clubs do the same with their tuitions? If parents don't believe that a club's price tag is justified, they can simply choose a club that is less expensive. There are some clubs (namely Metro and Paramount) whose price tag is justified given the platform and opportunities these clubs provide their athletes (especially in the form of athletic scholarships to D1 schools). However, I don't see any other club in the area whose accomplishments could justify any parent paying $5,000+. However, in the free market of CHRVA volleyball, what plays out every year is that there are families who are willing to pay the price tag. |
Anonymous
I am using MVSA to figure out what it really costs to run a volleyball club. As far as I could tell, their coaches have a day job and get involved with club volleyball for the love of volleyball, not to make a living. I agreed that you can add coaches stipends and admin salary to those fees, but you would have to agree that you would not end up with the fees charged in VA (and likely the MD clubs also add some good profit to their bottom line). |
Anonymous
I believe you are correct - they are allowed to charge whatever they want. But I also have the right to speak up against their practices and call out their greed. You may consider that free market is what should guide us, I believe free speech allows me to call them out. I am curious though, why would you try to protect their interest and try to shut down the conversation based on a free market argument? |