Volleyball Action

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What has become readily apparent over the last couple of years (especially as of late) is that these DCUM forums have unfortunately become overrun by proxies for a whole bunch of different clubs. Whether these people are actual club directors for the club, coaches, or diehard loyalists, the end result is that these forums contain absolutely zero worthwhile (or truthful) information to help parents make decisions. Just in this forum I can see what appears to be Legacy's Club Director, a Metro loyalist who is always bolstering up Metro and criticizing Paramount, a Paramount loyalist who just talks about tournament finishes, and someone with broken English who likes to criticize Metro. This is just to name a few. How about everybody grows up, gets out of this anonymous online forum, and starts to live a life in the real world.

If you grew up, got out of this anonymous online forum, and started to live a life in the real world, we would not have had to read this message that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. There is a lot of good information on these threads, especially for people with limited experience in the world of club volleyball. There was no back-and-forth between the Metro and Paramount loyalists on this particular thread. I agree that Legacy's club director trying to ANSWER every single point with non-answers is a bit questionable - of course she will turn herself into a pretzel just to make the club look good.

I still have to read a good reason for the club fees in Virginia being so damn high. An excuse like "others charge the same" is not acceptable: why is it possible to charge more decent prices in MD? Just look how much MVSA charges for a roster of 10 players. It is absolutely fine if you want to pay the coaches: divide the coach stipend to the number of players and add it to the MVSA prices. I doubt that VA coaches are paid so much better than the MD coaches to justify the difference in fees. Do you need an admin because the club is too large? Divide the cost to the total number of club players. Most clubs (even MD clubs) don't have 10 player rosters, so the price per player should actually go down. It is likely that even MOCO or MEVC fees are a bit inflated, even though they look reasonable compared to the club fees in VA. The truth is that they found a business opportunity and they are milking it.

I agree it seems like VA fees trend higher than MD fees. That said, I think it's more fair to compare VA fees to Maryland clubs like MOCO, MEVC, or Maryland Juniors, rather than MVSA.

What MVSA has created over the course of more than 30 years is pretty unique and would be almost impossible to replicate if you started today. In addition to all volunteer coaches, MVSA practices almost exclusively in MCPS or rec center facilities. According to the MCPS website, gym rental at an MCPS school for a non-profit organization is $17 per hour (it’s $22.50 per hour for a for profit). Commercial facilities and private schools tend to be a lot more ($75-$100 per hour). Another thing MVSA does to offset costs is host a LOT of tournaments. These allow for their teams to have priority to play in these tournaments (and presumably they don’t pay tournament fees for their own events) as well as make some extra revenue to help offset other costs. Many teams will have parents help at practice or serve as assistant coaches. They also have connections with t-shirt printing companies and deals on gear that help keep their costs low on the limited gear that's included with the club fees. A lot of people are giving their time, expertise, experience, and connections without being paid to make what MVSA does possible.

It's pretty much a full time job for most of the year for a club director to run a club of even one team per age group. Most of the bigger clubs have at least one paid administrative person in addition to the director. Do these people not deserve to make a reasonable living from running their small business? Using MOCO as an example, their highest club fee for the upcoming season is $3600 for their older 1s teams. Their fees include: 3 jerseys, backpack, practice shirts, HUDL, coach pay, equipment and training supplies, 3 practices/week, strength & conditioning, skills clinics, program administration, and tournament entry fees. Honestly, $3600 seems like a pretty good deal considering they start practicing in late November/early December, go to some bigger tournaments (e.g., Capitol Hill, NEQ, and ECC) and continue to at least Memorial Day. And if some of that $3600 is profit for the club, isn't that reasonable?

I know that the MVSA model is hard to replicate when profit is more important than volleyball. I feel like we are now talking with a MOCO representative, who wants to place MOCO in a good light. Indeed, MOCO looks pretty good compared with VA clubs, but they still inflate their prices. I already gave room for clubs to add coach stipends and include an admin, so I will only address facility prices. Nothings stops a club from using MCPS facilities, the same way as MVSA does. If they are a for-profit club, they would pay $5 extra per hour, which is $0.50 per player for a 10 player roster. For a 2h practice 2x a week for 30 weeks, that would increase the fees / player by about $60 per season. MOCO has more than 10 players / roster, so less than $60 likely applies. MOCO has as many teams as MVSA, so they could negotiate with the t-shirt printing / gear companies the same way as MVSA does. I know that parents also contribute to MOCO coaching, but I am not sure whether they are paid or not.

Not the PP, but someone who does care about the cost of club volleyball.

After years of trying to figure out club prices, here is the spreadsheet we put together every year as we look at clubs based on their public info. None of the below is intended to be negative or positive about any club.

For example, four MD clubs had a their top U14 team in the top 12 in the region last year: Columbia, MD Jrs, MOCO and MVSA.

Base Fees: Columbia-$4,300, MDJrs-$4,850, MOCO-$3,600, MVSA-$2,050
Players/team (last season): Columbia-13, MD Jrs-13, MOCO-11, MVSA-10
Practices/week: Columbia-3, MOCO-3, MDJrs-3, MVSA-2
Uniforms: Columbia-No ($not specified), MD Jrs-No ($290), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Balltime/HUDL Video (1): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No
Skills clinics/academy: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Coach Travel Covered: Columbia-Yes, Md Jrs-No (min $200 deposit), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Coach Stipend Covered: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-N/A
Strength & Conditioning (2): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No

Tournament schedules (3) (based off last year with updates for this year)
# of travel tournaments, excluding nationals (overnight stay): Columbia-8*, MD Jrs-4, MOCO-6, MVSA-4
# of Multi-day non-travel tournaments: Columbia-2, MD Jrs-2, MOCO-4, MVSA-3
# of local one day tournaments: Columbia-2, MD JRs-4, MOCO-2, MVSA-6
Nationals Included (USAV/AAU): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Not specified (past years this was an add-on)
Total # of Tournaments: Columbia-12, MD JRs-12**, MOCO-13, MVSA-13

* Columbia say they attend 10 multi-day travel tournaments but their schedule shows only 8.
** MDJrs schedule is missing a couple of tournaments, and their count includes their internal club tournament.

1-HUDL/Balltime public prices are $1,600 for HUDL, $2,400 for Balltime. Clubs likely get a discount on these prices.
2-Strength & Conditioning prices are variable, but average $30-$40/hr at a fitness center in small group and higher in individual training. Clubs likely get a discount on this price
3-Tournament costs are public info, check AES or Sportwrench. Generally, 2 day local tournaments and 2 day day travel tournament registration costs ~2x a 1 day tournament. 3 day travel tournaments cost ~2.5x at 1 day tournament. Nationals costs ~$1,000 for the team entry.
The # of practices and clinics, strength training, video, and multi-day tournaments have a big impact on the relative price of clubs. You can choose if you value those things or not.

Hope this helps someone make objective comparisons of club fees. This same approach should work for any club/team you want to compare. Feel free to add more cost areas if anything is missing.

This is truly great information, and it's much appreciated that you took the time to do all this research and share this. The comment that is incoming isn't directed at you, but just a response to the people who are complaining about the prices in general. This is the free market, and some club people do this for a living. Just like any person would advocate for the most competitive salary, why can't clubs do the same with their tuitions? If parents don't believe that a club's price tag is justified, they can simply choose a club that is less expensive. There are some clubs (namely Metro and Paramount) whose price tag is justified given the platform and opportunities these clubs provide their athletes (especially in the form of athletic scholarships to D1 schools). However, I don't see any other club in the area whose accomplishments could justify any parent paying $5,000+. However, in the free market of CHRVA volleyball, what plays out every year is that there are families who are willing to pay the price tag.

I believe you are correct - they are allowed to charge whatever they want. But I also have the right to speak up against their practices and call out their greed. You may consider that free market is what should guide us, I believe free speech allows me to call them out. I am curious though, why would you try to protect their interest and try to shut down the conversation based on a free market arguments?

NP—
But I am curious about your question. I feel like you must be younger than GenX for this to be your mindset. Because yes—the concept of the free market is a fundamental guiding principle of a capitalist society. Which you clearly either don’t understand or don’t support.
That’s fine if you acknowledge that, but then that’s you “shutting down” the very logical explanation PP provided as to why things are the way they are in pricing. Supply/demand is a very real concept in a free market society that offers concrete explanation.
It’s fascinating that you use the justification of “free speech” to support your argument for “calling out greed” but then characterize the other person’s speech in support of the free market as an attempt to “shut down the conversation”???
Interesting.

Here comes the "you must be very young and unexperienced" argument. I already agreed that free market is a good reason (it's the first sentence in the text that you quoted). However, as a consumer, I don't want this to be the end of the conversation. I want transparency on fees because transparency keeps you honest. If you are ok with price gouging, you can find a hero like Martin Shkreli and lecture me how the capitalist society benefited from free market.

[Anonymous]

NP here. I don’t frequent these boards but another volleyball mom pointed me to this thread bc my DD is considering Legacy and we are trying to sleuth out more info. I’m glad to find this!

My kid has played club ball in NoVA for two years at two “mid tier” clubs in the area including a supposed 1s team at a club that really wasn’t — It was frustrating for her. She’s improved a lot and she wants more of a challenge/competitive team for this coming year. The odds of her making Metro travel or Paramount are slim to none. Rosters are full and she isn’t 6’1”. She isn’t a fan of Mojo and the cliquey mean-girl-sorority mentality which prevails there. VA Elite reportedly already has a full roster for her age group. The rest of the club options are all kind of same (VaVa, Metro Regional, Vienna, American, Libero, etc).

DD actually will actually be trying out for Legacy. Not sure why there’s so much hate on this new club. My kid went to a clinic earlier this Fall and actually liked it. They worked her hard and had her doing serve receive and drills off the floor from a push-up position, which she’s never done before as a front row player. It was fast paced. The girls were sweating. The coaches were appropriate and there was a wide range of skill from newbies to some girls killing it (presumably the directors daughters). If the latter girls join the Legacy teams, then I think there’s some teeth behind the club. As we all know, sometimes it takes just a few rockstar players in proper rotation to make a winning team with other solid players backing them up. Perhaps that’s the goal for the club - to get their standouts highlighted for recruitment purposes. Why not?

Our only fear is the risk. We know some girls who mistakenly took the Renaissance DC risk last year in the lower age groups, and it was disastrous for them. A couple have since quit volleyball altogether bc it was that bad.

We definitely are considering them if my DD gets an offer after the tryout period. Bonus is that they aren’t out in Loudon county! Hello tolls!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What has become readily apparent over the last couple of years (especially as of late) is that these DCUM forums have unfortunately become overrun by proxies for a whole bunch of different clubs. Whether these people are actual club directors for the club, coaches, or diehard loyalists, the end result is that these forums contain absolutely zero worthwhile (or truthful) information to help parents make decisions. Just in this forum I can see what appears to be Legacy's Club Director, a Metro loyalist who is always bolstering up Metro and criticizing Paramount, a Paramount loyalist who just talks about tournament finishes, and someone with broken English who likes to criticize Metro. This is just to name a few. How about everybody grows up, gets out of this anonymous online forum, and starts to live a life in the real world.

If you grew up, got out of this anonymous online forum, and started to live a life in the real world, we would not have had to read this message that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. There is a lot of good information on these threads, especially for people with limited experience in the world of club volleyball. There was no back-and-forth between the Metro and Paramount loyalists on this particular thread. I agree that Legacy's club director trying to ANSWER every single point with non-answers is a bit questionable - of course she will turn herself into a pretzel just to make the club look good.

I still have to read a good reason for the club fees in Virginia being so damn high. An excuse like "others charge the same" is not acceptable: why is it possible to charge more decent prices in MD? Just look how much MVSA charges for a roster of 10 players. It is absolutely fine if you want to pay the coaches: divide the coach stipend to the number of players and add it to the MVSA prices. I doubt that VA coaches are paid so much better than the MD coaches to justify the difference in fees. Do you need an admin because the club is too large? Divide the cost to the total number of club players. Most clubs (even MD clubs) don't have 10 player rosters, so the price per player should actually go down. It is likely that even MOCO or MEVC fees are a bit inflated, even though they look reasonable compared to the club fees in VA. The truth is that they found a business opportunity and they are milking it.

I agree it seems like VA fees trend higher than MD fees. That said, I think it's more fair to compare VA fees to Maryland clubs like MOCO, MEVC, or Maryland Juniors, rather than MVSA.

What MVSA has created over the course of more than 30 years is pretty unique and would be almost impossible to replicate if you started today. In addition to all volunteer coaches, MVSA practices almost exclusively in MCPS or rec center facilities. According to the MCPS website, gym rental at an MCPS school for a non-profit organization is $17 per hour (it’s $22.50 per hour for a for profit). Commercial facilities and private schools tend to be a lot more ($75-$100 per hour). Another thing MVSA does to offset costs is host a LOT of tournaments. These allow for their teams to have priority to play in these tournaments (and presumably they don’t pay tournament fees for their own events) as well as make some extra revenue to help offset other costs. Many teams will have parents help at practice or serve as assistant coaches. They also have connections with t-shirt printing companies and deals on gear that help keep their costs low on the limited gear that's included with the club fees. A lot of people are giving their time, expertise, experience, and connections without being paid to make what MVSA does possible.

It's pretty much a full time job for most of the year for a club director to run a club of even one team per age group. Most of the bigger clubs have at least one paid administrative person in addition to the director. Do these people not deserve to make a reasonable living from running their small business? Using MOCO as an example, their highest club fee for the upcoming season is $3600 for their older 1s teams. Their fees include: 3 jerseys, backpack, practice shirts, HUDL, coach pay, equipment and training supplies, 3 practices/week, strength & conditioning, skills clinics, program administration, and tournament entry fees. Honestly, $3600 seems like a pretty good deal considering they start practicing in late November/early December, go to some bigger tournaments (e.g., Capitol Hill, NEQ, and ECC) and continue to at least Memorial Day. And if some of that $3600 is profit for the club, isn't that reasonable?

I know that the MVSA model is hard to replicate when profit is more important than volleyball. I feel like we are now talking with a MOCO representative, who wants to place MOCO in a good light. Indeed, MOCO looks pretty good compared with VA clubs, but they still inflate their prices. I already gave room for clubs to add coach stipends and include an admin, so I will only address facility prices. Nothings stops a club from using MCPS facilities, the same way as MVSA does. If they are a for-profit club, they would pay $5 extra per hour, which is $0.50 per player for a 10 player roster. For a 2h practice 2x a week for 30 weeks, that would increase the fees / player by about $60 per season. MOCO has more than 10 players / roster, so less than $60 likely applies. MOCO has as many teams as MVSA, so they could negotiate with the t-shirt printing / gear companies the same way as MVSA does. I know that parents also contribute to MOCO coaching, but I am not sure whether they are paid or not.

Not the PP, but someone who does care about the cost of club volleyball.

After years of trying to figure out club prices, here is the spreadsheet we put together every year as we look at clubs based on their public info. None of the below is intended to be negative or positive about any club.

For example, four MD clubs had a their top U14 team in the top 12 in the region last year: Columbia, MD Jrs, MOCO and MVSA.

Base Fees: Columbia-$4,300, MDJrs-$4,850, MOCO-$3,600, MVSA-$2,050
Players/team (last season): Columbia-13, MD Jrs-13, MOCO-11, MVSA-10
Practices/week: Columbia-3, MOCO-3, MDJrs-3, MVSA-2
Uniforms: Columbia-No ($not specified), MD Jrs-No ($290), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Balltime/HUDL Video (1): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No
Skills clinics/academy: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Coach Travel Covered: Columbia-Yes, Md Jrs-No (min $200 deposit), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Coach Stipend Covered: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-N/A
Strength & Conditioning (2): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No

Tournament schedules (3) (based off last year with updates for this year)
# of travel tournaments, excluding nationals (overnight stay): Columbia-8*, MD Jrs-4, MOCO-6, MVSA-4
# of Multi-day non-travel tournaments: Columbia-2, MD Jrs-2, MOCO-4, MVSA-3
# of local one day tournaments: Columbia-2, MD JRs-4, MOCO-2, MVSA-6
Nationals Included (USAV/AAU): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Not specified (past years this was an add-on)
Total # of Tournaments: Columbia-12, MD JRs-12**, MOCO-13, MVSA-13

* Columbia say they attend 10 multi-day travel tournaments but their schedule shows only 8.
** MDJrs schedule is missing a couple of tournaments, and their count includes their internal club tournament.

1-HUDL/Balltime public prices are $1,600 for HUDL, $2,400 for Balltime. Clubs likely get a discount on these prices.
2-Strength & Conditioning prices are variable, but average $30-$40/hr at a fitness center in small group and higher in individual training. Clubs likely get a discount on this price
3-Tournament costs are public info, check AES or Sportwrench. Generally, 2 day local tournaments and 2 day day travel tournament registration costs ~2x a 1 day tournament. 3 day travel tournaments cost ~2.5x at 1 day tournament. Nationals costs ~$1,000 for the team entry.
The # of practices and clinics, strength training, video, and multi-day tournaments have a big impact on the relative price of clubs. You can choose if you value those things or not.

Hope this helps someone make objective comparisons of club fees. This same approach should work for any club/team you want to compare. Feel free to add more cost areas if anything is missing.

This is truly great information, and it's much appreciated that you took the time to do all this research and share this. The comment that is incoming isn't directed at you, but just a response to the people who are complaining about the prices in general. This is the free market, and some club people do this for a living. Just like any person would advocate for the most competitive salary, why can't clubs do the same with their tuitions? If parents don't believe that a club's price tag is justified, they can simply choose a club that is less expensive. There are some clubs (namely Metro and Paramount) whose price tag is justified given the platform and opportunities these clubs provide their athletes (especially in the form of athletic scholarships to D1 schools). However, I don't see any other club in the area whose accomplishments could justify any parent paying $5,000+. However, in the free market of CHRVA volleyball, what plays out every year is that there are families who are willing to pay the price tag.

I believe you are correct - they are allowed to charge whatever they want. But I also have the right to speak up against their practices and call out their greed. You may consider that free market is what should guide us, I believe free speech allows me to call them out. I am curious though, why would you try to protect their interest and try to shut down the conversation based on a free market arguments?

NP—
But I am curious about your question. I feel like you must be younger than GenX for this to be your mindset. Because yes—the concept of the free market is a fundamental guiding principle of a capitalist society. Which you clearly either don’t understand or don’t support.
That’s fine if you acknowledge that, but then that’s you “shutting down” the very logical explanation PP provided as to why things are the way they are in pricing. Supply/demand is a very real concept in a free market society that offers concrete explanation.
It’s fascinating that you use the justification of “free speech” to support your argument for “calling out greed” but then characterize the other person’s speech in support of the free market as an attempt to “shut down the conversation”???
Interesting.

Here comes the "you must be very young and unexperienced" argument. I already agreed that free market is a good reason (it's the first sentence in the text that you quoted). However, as a consumer, I don't want this to be the end of the conversation. I want transparency on fees because transparency keeps you honest. If you are ok with price gouging, you can find a hero like Martin Shkreli and lecture me how the capitalist society benefited from free market.

Who tried to end the conversation? Disagreeing with you doesn't mean that someone is trying to stifle your free speech or end the conversation. If DCUM has taught us anything it's that anonymous strangers on the interwebs love to argue so ending the conversation is seldom the objective.

That said, I don't think aggressively calling out clubs as "greedy" and accusing them of "price gouging" on these forums is going to change anything. While I'm sure there are some club directors or others on these forums, I doubt that most are even aware that they are being discussed.

Shifting to other ideas for addressing high club fees, if you are interested in a club, have a conversation with the club director about cost. Asking for transparency is a reasonable way to articulate your concern. Another way to frame the question would be in terms of a comparison with other clubs. "I see your fees are $X and another club we are considering has fees of $Y. Can you help me understand why your fees are so much higher?"

And while this might not be the grand, systemic change you are looking for, don't be afraid to ask if there is something you can do to reduce the fees in your particular circumstance. Some clubs offer scholarships or reduced fees in cases of financial need. Other clubs will reduce fees if you take on a role within a club. Early in my DD's club experience, I started out as an assistant coach and eventually became a head coach. Instead of being paid, the fees for my DD were reduced or waived altogether. The club also paid for hotels and had a per diem for travel tournaments so it was a pretty big savings. While I did play volleyball many years ago, I know of multiple people with almost no volleyball experience that became good coaches. I've also heard of clubs offering credit for taking on a significant volunteer role within a team - things like being the one who drafts and sends out all the communications for the team and helping to make other arrangements. Finally, there is a local foundation that helps a few athletes every year, including with things like club fee https://www.sportsmom.org/.

[Anonymous]

Re fees. There is a popular club in the area that charges $6500-$7200 for travel team but then opts to go to Orlando over Presidents Day weekend instead of the Capitol Hill Classic right here in our backyard. Why why why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here. I don’t frequent these boards but another volleyball mom pointed me to this thread bc my DD is considering Legacy and we are trying to sleuth out more info. I’m glad to find this!

My kid has played club ball in NoVA for two years at two “mid tier” clubs in the area including a supposed 1s team at a club that really wasn’t — It was frustrating for her. She’s improved a lot and she wants more of a challenge/competitive team for this coming year. The odds of her making Metro travel or Paramount are slim to none. Rosters are full and she isn’t 6’1”. She isn’t a fan of Mojo and the cliquey mean-girl-sorority mentality which prevails there. VA Elite reportedly already has a full roster for her age group. The rest of the club options are all kind of same (VaVa, Metro Regional, Vienna, American, Libero, etc).

DD actually will actually be trying out for Legacy. Not sure why there’s so much hate on this new club. My kid went to a clinic earlier this Fall and actually liked it. They worked her hard and had her doing serve receive and drills off the floor from a push-up position, which she’s never done before as a front row player. It was fast paced. The girls were sweating. The coaches were appropriate and there was a wide range of skill from newbies to some girls killing it (presumably the directors daughters). If the latter girls join the Legacy teams, then I think there’s some teeth behind the club. As we all know, sometimes it takes just a few rockstar players in proper rotation to make a winning team with other solid players backing them up. Perhaps that’s the goal for the club - to get their standouts highlighted for recruitment purposes. Why not?

Our only fear is the risk. We know some girls who mistakenly took the Renaissance DC risk last year in the lower age groups, and it was disastrous for them. A couple have since quit volleyball altogether bc it was that bad.

We definitely are considering them if my DD gets an offer after the tryout period. Bonus is that they aren’t out in Loudon county! Hello tolls!

Good luck to you and your daughter! If you think that's a good fit, go for it! Based on what you say about the clinics, you will likely be happy with the practices. I will insert a little warning though. While a few rock stars in proper rotation can win some regional games, this doesn't really apply at the qualifiers. The top CHRVA teams look just above the average when they go to qualifiers (and they have really good players in all positions). Since you seem objective in assessing your DD's skills, you probably understand that she is not ready for the qualifiers. You also seem to understand the volleyball scene, so you can also figure that the top players would not leave their teams to join LVA. This is what is left for the LVA rosters: players at the same level as your DD. I predict that you will end up the season questioning some of the club decisions, especially signing up for qualifiers teams that - quite obviously from the start - will not be ready. But it's your money, so you can decide to waste it in any way you want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Re fees. There is a popular club in the area that charges $6500-$7200 for travel team but then opts to go to Orlando over Presidents Day weekend instead of the Capitol Hill Classic right here in our backyard. Why why why?

Clubs should be smarter than this. The only tournament that would justify a local club traveling far from DC on President's Day would be Triple Crown, and there are only 2 local clubs for which that is even an option. This just seems like a club director is taking a parent funded trip to warmer weather in February.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What has become readily apparent over the last couple of years (especially as of late) is that these DCUM forums have unfortunately become overrun by proxies for a whole bunch of different clubs. Whether these people are actual club directors for the club, coaches, or diehard loyalists, the end result is that these forums contain absolutely zero worthwhile (or truthful) information to help parents make decisions. Just in this forum I can see what appears to be Legacy's Club Director, a Metro loyalist who is always bolstering up Metro and criticizing Paramount, a Paramount loyalist who just talks about tournament finishes, and someone with broken English who likes to criticize Metro. This is just to name a few. How about everybody grows up, gets out of this anonymous online forum, and starts to live a life in the real world.

If you grew up, got out of this anonymous online forum, and started to live a life in the real world, we would not have had to read this message that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. There is a lot of good information on these threads, especially for people with limited experience in the world of club volleyball. There was no back-and-forth between the Metro and Paramount loyalists on this particular thread. I agree that Legacy's club director trying to ANSWER every single point with non-answers is a bit questionable - of course she will turn herself into a pretzel just to make the club look good.

I still have to read a good reason for the club fees in Virginia being so damn high. An excuse like "others charge the same" is not acceptable: why is it possible to charge more decent prices in MD? Just look how much MVSA charges for a roster of 10 players. It is absolutely fine if you want to pay the coaches: divide the coach stipend to the number of players and add it to the MVSA prices. I doubt that VA coaches are paid so much better than the MD coaches to justify the difference in fees. Do you need an admin because the club is too large? Divide the cost to the total number of club players. Most clubs (even MD clubs) don't have 10 player rosters, so the price per player should actually go down. It is likely that even MOCO or MEVC fees are a bit inflated, even though they look reasonable compared to the club fees in VA. The truth is that they found a business opportunity and they are milking it.

I agree it seems like VA fees trend higher than MD fees. That said, I think it's more fair to compare VA fees to Maryland clubs like MOCO, MEVC, or Maryland Juniors, rather than MVSA.

What MVSA has created over the course of more than 30 years is pretty unique and would be almost impossible to replicate if you started today. In addition to all volunteer coaches, MVSA practices almost exclusively in MCPS or rec center facilities. According to the MCPS website, gym rental at an MCPS school for a non-profit organization is $17 per hour (it’s $22.50 per hour for a for profit). Commercial facilities and private schools tend to be a lot more ($75-$100 per hour). Another thing MVSA does to offset costs is host a LOT of tournaments. These allow for their teams to have priority to play in these tournaments (and presumably they don’t pay tournament fees for their own events) as well as make some extra revenue to help offset other costs. Many teams will have parents help at practice or serve as assistant coaches. They also have connections with t-shirt printing companies and deals on gear that help keep their costs low on the limited gear that's included with the club fees. A lot of people are giving their time, expertise, experience, and connections without being paid to make what MVSA does possible.

It's pretty much a full time job for most of the year for a club director to run a club of even one team per age group. Most of the bigger clubs have at least one paid administrative person in addition to the director. Do these people not deserve to make a reasonable living from running their small business? Using MOCO as an example, their highest club fee for the upcoming season is $3600 for their older 1s teams. Their fees include: 3 jerseys, backpack, practice shirts, HUDL, coach pay, equipment and training supplies, 3 practices/week, strength & conditioning, skills clinics, program administration, and tournament entry fees. Honestly, $3600 seems like a pretty good deal considering they start practicing in late November/early December, go to some bigger tournaments (e.g., Capitol Hill, NEQ, and ECC) and continue to at least Memorial Day. And if some of that $3600 is profit for the club, isn't that reasonable?

I know that the MVSA model is hard to replicate when profit is more important than volleyball. I feel like we are now talking with a MOCO representative, who wants to place MOCO in a good light. Indeed, MOCO looks pretty good compared with VA clubs, but they still inflate their prices. I already gave room for clubs to add coach stipends and include an admin, so I will only address facility prices. Nothings stops a club from using MCPS facilities, the same way as MVSA does. If they are a for-profit club, they would pay $5 extra per hour, which is $0.50 per player for a 10 player roster. For a 2h practice 2x a week for 30 weeks, that would increase the fees / player by about $60 per season. MOCO has more than 10 players / roster, so less than $60 likely applies. MOCO has as many teams as MVSA, so they could negotiate with the t-shirt printing / gear companies the same way as MVSA does. I know that parents also contribute to MOCO coaching, but I am not sure whether they are paid or not.

Not the PP, but someone who does care about the cost of club volleyball.

After years of trying to figure out club prices, here is the spreadsheet we put together every year as we look at clubs based on their public info. None of the below is intended to be negative or positive about any club.

For example, four MD clubs had a their top U14 team in the top 12 in the region last year: Columbia, MD Jrs, MOCO and MVSA.

Base Fees: Columbia-$4,300, MDJrs-$4,850, MOCO-$3,600, MVSA-$2,050
Players/team (last season): Columbia-13, MD Jrs-13, MOCO-11, MVSA-10
Practices/week: Columbia-3, MOCO-3, MDJrs-3, MVSA-2
Uniforms: Columbia-No ($not specified), MD Jrs-No ($290), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Balltime/HUDL Video (1): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No
Skills clinics/academy: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Coach Travel Covered: Columbia-Yes, Md Jrs-No (min $200 deposit), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Coach Stipend Covered: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-N/A
Strength & Conditioning (2): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No

Tournament schedules (3) (based off last year with updates for this year)
# of travel tournaments, excluding nationals (overnight stay): Columbia-8*, MD Jrs-4, MOCO-6, MVSA-4
# of Multi-day non-travel tournaments: Columbia-2, MD Jrs-2, MOCO-4, MVSA-3
# of local one day tournaments: Columbia-2, MD JRs-4, MOCO-2, MVSA-6
Nationals Included (USAV/AAU): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Not specified (past years this was an add-on)
Total # of Tournaments: Columbia-12, MD JRs-12**, MOCO-13, MVSA-13

* Columbia say they attend 10 multi-day travel tournaments but their schedule shows only 8.
** MDJrs schedule is missing a couple of tournaments, and their count includes their internal club tournament.

1-HUDL/Balltime public prices are $1,600 for HUDL, $2,400 for Balltime. Clubs likely get a discount on these prices.
2-Strength & Conditioning prices are variable, but average $30-$40/hr at a fitness center in small group and higher in individual training. Clubs likely get a discount on this price
3-Tournament costs are public info, check AES or Sportwrench. Generally, 2 day local tournaments and 2 day day travel tournament registration costs ~2x a 1 day tournament. 3 day travel tournaments cost ~2.5x at 1 day tournament. Nationals costs ~$1,000 for the team entry.
The # of practices and clinics, strength training, video, and multi-day tournaments have a big impact on the relative price of clubs. You can choose if you value those things or not.

Hope this helps someone make objective comparisons of club fees. This same approach should work for any club/team you want to compare. Feel free to add more cost areas if anything is missing.

This is truly great information, and it's much appreciated that you took the time to do all this research and share this. The comment that is incoming isn't directed at you, but just a response to the people who are complaining about the prices in general. This is the free market, and some club people do this for a living. Just like any person would advocate for the most competitive salary, why can't clubs do the same with their tuitions? If parents don't believe that a club's price tag is justified, they can simply choose a club that is less expensive. There are some clubs (namely Metro and Paramount) whose price tag is justified given the platform and opportunities these clubs provide their athletes (especially in the form of athletic scholarships to D1 schools). However, I don't see any other club in the area whose accomplishments could justify any parent paying $5,000+. However, in the free market of CHRVA volleyball, what plays out every year is that there are families who are willing to pay the price tag.

I believe you are correct - they are allowed to charge whatever they want. But I also have the right to speak up against their practices and call out their greed. You may consider that free market is what should guide us, I believe free speech allows me to call them out. I am curious though, why would you try to protect their interest and try to shut down the conversation based on a free market arguments?

NP—
But I am curious about your question. I feel like you must be younger than GenX for this to be your mindset. Because yes—the concept of the free market is a fundamental guiding principle of a capitalist society. Which you clearly either don’t understand or don’t support.
That’s fine if you acknowledge that, but then that’s you “shutting down” the very logical explanation PP provided as to why things are the way they are in pricing. Supply/demand is a very real concept in a free market society that offers concrete explanation.
It’s fascinating that you use the justification of “free speech” to support your argument for “calling out greed” but then characterize the other person’s speech in support of the free market as an attempt to “shut down the conversation”???
Interesting.

Here comes the "you must be very young and unexperienced" argument. I already agreed that free market is a good reason (it's the first sentence in the text that you quoted). However, as a consumer, I don't want this to be the end of the conversation. I want transparency on fees because transparency keeps you honest. If you are ok with price gouging, you can find a hero like Martin Shkreli and lecture me how the capitalist society benefited from free market.

Who tried to end the conversation? Disagreeing with you doesn't mean that someone is trying to stifle your free speech or end the conversation. If DCUM has taught us anything it's that anonymous strangers on the interwebs love to argue so ending the conversation is seldom the objective.

That said, I don't think aggressively calling out clubs as "greedy" and accusing them of "price gouging" on these forums is going to change anything. While I'm sure there are some club directors or others on these forums, I doubt that most are even aware that they are being discussed.

Shifting to other ideas for addressing high club fees, if you are interested in a club, have a conversation with the club director about cost. Asking for transparency is a reasonable way to articulate your concern. Another way to frame the question would be in terms of a comparison with other clubs. "I see your fees are $X and another club we are considering has fees of $Y. Can you help me understand why your fees are so much higher?"

And while this might not be the grand, systemic change you are looking for, don't be afraid to ask if there is something you can do to reduce the fees in your particular circumstance. Some clubs offer scholarships or reduced fees in cases of financial need. Other clubs will reduce fees if you take on a role within a club. Early in my DD's club experience, I started out as an assistant coach and eventually became a head coach. Instead of being paid, the fees for my DD were reduced or waived altogether. The club also paid for hotels and had a per diem for travel tournaments so it was a pretty big savings. While I did play volleyball many years ago, I know of multiple people with almost no volleyball experience that became good coaches. I've also heard of clubs offering credit for taking on a significant volunteer role within a team - things like being the one who drafts and sends out all the communications for the team and helping to make other arrangements. Finally, there is a local foundation that helps a few athletes every year, including with things like club fee https://www.sportsmom.org/.

Thank you for the advice that would make it easier for some folks to reduce their club fees. A discussion about fees with a club director is very uncomfortable, especially in this area where everyone seems to shovel green. I cannot claim that I am poor either, but a few thousands each year would look much better in my retirement account than wherever it goas after I pay inflated club fees.

You might be right about (not) affecting change based on DCUM forum discussions. Or you might be wrong because you simply make assumptions. Since you are a coach, you may (or may not) talk to your club director about what parents think. At least one club director (LVA) seems to be on this thread in the middle of the price gauging conversation (maybe there will be a podcast or a video coming out on this topic). If we keep our mouths shut even on anonymous forums, how do club directors learn that parents are not happy with their inflated fees?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What has become readily apparent over the last couple of years (especially as of late) is that these DCUM forums have unfortunately become overrun by proxies for a whole bunch of different clubs. Whether these people are actual club directors for the club, coaches, or diehard loyalists, the end result is that these forums contain absolutely zero worthwhile (or truthful) information to help parents make decisions. Just in this forum I can see what appears to be Legacy's Club Director, a Metro loyalist who is always bolstering up Metro and criticizing Paramount, a Paramount loyalist who just talks about tournament finishes, and someone with broken English who likes to criticize Metro. This is just to name a few. How about everybody grows up, gets out of this anonymous online forum, and starts to live a life in the real world.

If you grew up, got out of this anonymous online forum, and started to live a life in the real world, we would not have had to read this message that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. There is a lot of good information on these threads, especially for people with limited experience in the world of club volleyball. There was no back-and-forth between the Metro and Paramount loyalists on this particular thread. I agree that Legacy's club director trying to ANSWER every single point with non-answers is a bit questionable - of course she will turn herself into a pretzel just to make the club look good.

I still have to read a good reason for the club fees in Virginia being so damn high. An excuse like "others charge the same" is not acceptable: why is it possible to charge more decent prices in MD? Just look how much MVSA charges for a roster of 10 players. It is absolutely fine if you want to pay the coaches: divide the coach stipend to the number of players and add it to the MVSA prices. I doubt that VA coaches are paid so much better than the MD coaches to justify the difference in fees. Do you need an admin because the club is too large? Divide the cost to the total number of club players. Most clubs (even MD clubs) don't have 10 player rosters, so the price per player should actually go down. It is likely that even MOCO or MEVC fees are a bit inflated, even though they look reasonable compared to the club fees in VA. The truth is that they found a business opportunity and they are milking it.

I agree it seems like VA fees trend higher than MD fees. That said, I think it's more fair to compare VA fees to Maryland clubs like MOCO, MEVC, or Maryland Juniors, rather than MVSA.

What MVSA has created over the course of more than 30 years is pretty unique and would be almost impossible to replicate if you started today. In addition to all volunteer coaches, MVSA practices almost exclusively in MCPS or rec center facilities. According to the MCPS website, gym rental at an MCPS school for a non-profit organization is $17 per hour (it’s $22.50 per hour for a for profit). Commercial facilities and private schools tend to be a lot more ($75-$100 per hour). Another thing MVSA does to offset costs is host a LOT of tournaments. These allow for their teams to have priority to play in these tournaments (and presumably they don’t pay tournament fees for their own events) as well as make some extra revenue to help offset other costs. Many teams will have parents help at practice or serve as assistant coaches. They also have connections with t-shirt printing companies and deals on gear that help keep their costs low on the limited gear that's included with the club fees. A lot of people are giving their time, expertise, experience, and connections without being paid to make what MVSA does possible.

It's pretty much a full time job for most of the year for a club director to run a club of even one team per age group. Most of the bigger clubs have at least one paid administrative person in addition to the director. Do these people not deserve to make a reasonable living from running their small business? Using MOCO as an example, their highest club fee for the upcoming season is $3600 for their older 1s teams. Their fees include: 3 jerseys, backpack, practice shirts, HUDL, coach pay, equipment and training supplies, 3 practices/week, strength & conditioning, skills clinics, program administration, and tournament entry fees. Honestly, $3600 seems like a pretty good deal considering they start practicing in late November/early December, go to some bigger tournaments (e.g., Capitol Hill, NEQ, and ECC) and continue to at least Memorial Day. And if some of that $3600 is profit for the club, isn't that reasonable?

I know that the MVSA model is hard to replicate when profit is more important than volleyball. I feel like we are now talking with a MOCO representative, who wants to place MOCO in a good light. Indeed, MOCO looks pretty good compared with VA clubs, but they still inflate their prices. I already gave room for clubs to add coach stipends and include an admin, so I will only address facility prices. Nothings stops a club from using MCPS facilities, the same way as MVSA does. If they are a for-profit club, they would pay $5 extra per hour, which is $0.50 per player for a 10 player roster. For a 2h practice 2x a week for 30 weeks, that would increase the fees / player by about $60 per season. MOCO has more than 10 players / roster, so less than $60 likely applies. MOCO has as many teams as MVSA, so they could negotiate with the t-shirt printing / gear companies the same way as MVSA does. I know that parents also contribute to MOCO coaching, but I am not sure whether they are paid or not.

Not the PP, but someone who does care about the cost of club volleyball.

After years of trying to figure out club prices, here is the spreadsheet we put together every year as we look at clubs based on their public info. None of the below is intended to be negative or positive about any club.

For example, four MD clubs had a their top U14 team in the top 12 in the region last year: Columbia, MD Jrs, MOCO and MVSA.

Base Fees: Columbia-$4,300, MDJrs-$4,850, MOCO-$3,600, MVSA-$2,050
Players/team (last season): Columbia-13, MD Jrs-13, MOCO-11, MVSA-10
Practices/week: Columbia-3, MOCO-3, MDJrs-3, MVSA-2
Uniforms: Columbia-No ($not specified), MD Jrs-No ($290), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Balltime/HUDL Video (1): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No
Skills clinics/academy: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Coach Travel Covered: Columbia-Yes, Md Jrs-No (min $200 deposit), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Coach Stipend Covered: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-N/A
Strength & Conditioning (2): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No

Tournament schedules (3) (based off last year with updates for this year)
# of travel tournaments, excluding nationals (overnight stay): Columbia-8*, MD Jrs-4, MOCO-6, MVSA-4
# of Multi-day non-travel tournaments: Columbia-2, MD Jrs-2, MOCO-4, MVSA-3
# of local one day tournaments: Columbia-2, MD JRs-4, MOCO-2, MVSA-6
Nationals Included (USAV/AAU): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Not specified (past years this was an add-on)
Total # of Tournaments: Columbia-12, MD JRs-12**, MOCO-13, MVSA-13

* Columbia say they attend 10 multi-day travel tournaments but their schedule shows only 8.
** MDJrs schedule is missing a couple of tournaments, and their count includes their internal club tournament.

1-HUDL/Balltime public prices are $1,600 for HUDL, $2,400 for Balltime. Clubs likely get a discount on these prices.
2-Strength & Conditioning prices are variable, but average $30-$40/hr at a fitness center in small group and higher in individual training. Clubs likely get a discount on this price
3-Tournament costs are public info, check AES or Sportwrench. Generally, 2 day local tournaments and 2 day day travel tournament registration costs ~2x a 1 day tournament. 3 day travel tournaments cost ~2.5x at 1 day tournament. Nationals costs ~$1,000 for the team entry.
The # of practices and clinics, strength training, video, and multi-day tournaments have a big impact on the relative price of clubs. You can choose if you value those things or not.

Hope this helps someone make objective comparisons of club fees. This same approach should work for any club/team you want to compare. Feel free to add more cost areas if anything is missing.

This is truly great information, and it's much appreciated that you took the time to do all this research and share this. The comment that is incoming isn't directed at you, but just a response to the people who are complaining about the prices in general. This is the free market, and some club people do this for a living. Just like any person would advocate for the most competitive salary, why can't clubs do the same with their tuitions? If parents don't believe that a club's price tag is justified, they can simply choose a club that is less expensive. There are some clubs (namely Metro and Paramount) whose price tag is justified given the platform and opportunities these clubs provide their athletes (especially in the form of athletic scholarships to D1 schools). However, I don't see any other club in the area whose accomplishments could justify any parent paying $5,000+. However, in the free market of CHRVA volleyball, what plays out every year is that there are families who are willing to pay the price tag.

I believe you are correct - they are allowed to charge whatever they want. But I also have the right to speak up against their practices and call out their greed. You may consider that free market is what should guide us, I believe free speech allows me to call them out. I am curious though, why would you try to protect their interest and try to shut down the conversation based on a free market arguments?

NP—
But I am curious about your question. I feel like you must be younger than GenX for this to be your mindset. Because yes—the concept of the free market is a fundamental guiding principle of a capitalist society. Which you clearly either don’t understand or don’t support.
That’s fine if you acknowledge that, but then that’s you “shutting down” the very logical explanation PP provided as to why things are the way they are in pricing. Supply/demand is a very real concept in a free market society that offers concrete explanation.
It’s fascinating that you use the justification of “free speech” to support your argument for “calling out greed” but then characterize the other person’s speech in support of the free market as an attempt to “shut down the conversation”???
Interesting.

Here comes the "you must be very young and unexperienced" argument. I already agreed that free market is a good reason (it's the first sentence in the text that you quoted). However, as a consumer, I don't want this to be the end of the conversation. I want transparency on fees because transparency keeps you honest. If you are ok with price gouging, you can find a hero like Martin Shkreli and lecture me how the capitalist society benefited from free market.

Who tried to end the conversation? Disagreeing with you doesn't mean that someone is trying to stifle your free speech or end the conversation. If DCUM has taught us anything it's that anonymous strangers on the interwebs love to argue so ending the conversation is seldom the objective.

That said, I don't think aggressively calling out clubs as "greedy" and accusing them of "price gouging" on these forums is going to change anything. While I'm sure there are some club directors or others on these forums, I doubt that most are even aware that they are being discussed.

Shifting to other ideas for addressing high club fees, if you are interested in a club, have a conversation with the club director about cost. Asking for transparency is a reasonable way to articulate your concern. Another way to frame the question would be in terms of a comparison with other clubs. "I see your fees are $X and another club we are considering has fees of $Y. Can you help me understand why your fees are so much higher?"

And while this might not be the grand, systemic change you are looking for, don't be afraid to ask if there is something you can do to reduce the fees in your particular circumstance. Some clubs offer scholarships or reduced fees in cases of financial need. Other clubs will reduce fees if you take on a role within a club. Early in my DD's club experience, I started out as an assistant coach and eventually became a head coach. Instead of being paid, the fees for my DD were reduced or waived altogether. The club also paid for hotels and had a per diem for travel tournaments so it was a pretty big savings. While I did play volleyball many years ago, I know of multiple people with almost no volleyball experience that became good coaches. I've also heard of clubs offering credit for taking on a significant volunteer role within a team - things like being the one who drafts and sends out all the communications for the team and helping to make other arrangements. Finally, there is a local foundation that helps a few athletes every year, including with things like club fee https://www.sportsmom.org/.

Thank you for the advice that would make it easier for some folks to reduce their club fees. A discussion about fees with a club director is very uncomfortable, especially in this area where everyone seems to shovel green. I cannot claim that I am poor either, but a few thousands each year would look much better in my retirement account than wherever it goas after I pay inflated club fees.

You might be right about (not) affecting change based on DCUM forum discussions. Or you might be wrong because you simply make assumptions. Since you are a coach, you may (or may not) talk to your club director about what parents think. At least one club director (LVA) seems to be on this thread in the middle of the price gauging conversation (maybe there will be a podcast or a video coming out on this topic). If we keep our mouths shut even on anonymous forums, how do club directors learn that parents are not happy with their inflated fees?

Am I missing something? Why do people keep suggesting they are being told to keep their mouths shut? There have been posts defending clubs but I don't recall seeing anyone who is complaining about fees being told to keep their opinions to themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What has become readily apparent over the last couple of years (especially as of late) is that these DCUM forums have unfortunately become overrun by proxies for a whole bunch of different clubs. Whether these people are actual club directors for the club, coaches, or diehard loyalists, the end result is that these forums contain absolutely zero worthwhile (or truthful) information to help parents make decisions. Just in this forum I can see what appears to be Legacy's Club Director, a Metro loyalist who is always bolstering up Metro and criticizing Paramount, a Paramount loyalist who just talks about tournament finishes, and someone with broken English who likes to criticize Metro. This is just to name a few. How about everybody grows up, gets out of this anonymous online forum, and starts to live a life in the real world.

If you grew up, got out of this anonymous online forum, and started to live a life in the real world, we would not have had to read this message that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. There is a lot of good information on these threads, especially for people with limited experience in the world of club volleyball. There was no back-and-forth between the Metro and Paramount loyalists on this particular thread. I agree that Legacy's club director trying to ANSWER every single point with non-answers is a bit questionable - of course she will turn herself into a pretzel just to make the club look good.

I still have to read a good reason for the club fees in Virginia being so damn high. An excuse like "others charge the same" is not acceptable: why is it possible to charge more decent prices in MD? Just look how much MVSA charges for a roster of 10 players. It is absolutely fine if you want to pay the coaches: divide the coach stipend to the number of players and add it to the MVSA prices. I doubt that VA coaches are paid so much better than the MD coaches to justify the difference in fees. Do you need an admin because the club is too large? Divide the cost to the total number of club players. Most clubs (even MD clubs) don't have 10 player rosters, so the price per player should actually go down. It is likely that even MOCO or MEVC fees are a bit inflated, even though they look reasonable compared to the club fees in VA. The truth is that they found a business opportunity and they are milking it.

I agree it seems like VA fees trend higher than MD fees. That said, I think it's more fair to compare VA fees to Maryland clubs like MOCO, MEVC, or Maryland Juniors, rather than MVSA.

What MVSA has created over the course of more than 30 years is pretty unique and would be almost impossible to replicate if you started today. In addition to all volunteer coaches, MVSA practices almost exclusively in MCPS or rec center facilities. According to the MCPS website, gym rental at an MCPS school for a non-profit organization is $17 per hour (it’s $22.50 per hour for a for profit). Commercial facilities and private schools tend to be a lot more ($75-$100 per hour). Another thing MVSA does to offset costs is host a LOT of tournaments. These allow for their teams to have priority to play in these tournaments (and presumably they don’t pay tournament fees for their own events) as well as make some extra revenue to help offset other costs. Many teams will have parents help at practice or serve as assistant coaches. They also have connections with t-shirt printing companies and deals on gear that help keep their costs low on the limited gear that's included with the club fees. A lot of people are giving their time, expertise, experience, and connections without being paid to make what MVSA does possible.

It's pretty much a full time job for most of the year for a club director to run a club of even one team per age group. Most of the bigger clubs have at least one paid administrative person in addition to the director. Do these people not deserve to make a reasonable living from running their small business? Using MOCO as an example, their highest club fee for the upcoming season is $3600 for their older 1s teams. Their fees include: 3 jerseys, backpack, practice shirts, HUDL, coach pay, equipment and training supplies, 3 practices/week, strength & conditioning, skills clinics, program administration, and tournament entry fees. Honestly, $3600 seems like a pretty good deal considering they start practicing in late November/early December, go to some bigger tournaments (e.g., Capitol Hill, NEQ, and ECC) and continue to at least Memorial Day. And if some of that $3600 is profit for the club, isn't that reasonable?

I know that the MVSA model is hard to replicate when profit is more important than volleyball. I feel like we are now talking with a MOCO representative, who wants to place MOCO in a good light. Indeed, MOCO looks pretty good compared with VA clubs, but they still inflate their prices. I already gave room for clubs to add coach stipends and include an admin, so I will only address facility prices. Nothings stops a club from using MCPS facilities, the same way as MVSA does. If they are a for-profit club, they would pay $5 extra per hour, which is $0.50 per player for a 10 player roster. For a 2h practice 2x a week for 30 weeks, that would increase the fees / player by about $60 per season. MOCO has more than 10 players / roster, so less than $60 likely applies. MOCO has as many teams as MVSA, so they could negotiate with the t-shirt printing / gear companies the same way as MVSA does. I know that parents also contribute to MOCO coaching, but I am not sure whether they are paid or not.

Not the PP, but someone who does care about the cost of club volleyball.

After years of trying to figure out club prices, here is the spreadsheet we put together every year as we look at clubs based on their public info. None of the below is intended to be negative or positive about any club.

For example, four MD clubs had a their top U14 team in the top 12 in the region last year: Columbia, MD Jrs, MOCO and MVSA.

Base Fees: Columbia-$4,300, MDJrs-$4,850, MOCO-$3,600, MVSA-$2,050
Players/team (last season): Columbia-13, MD Jrs-13, MOCO-11, MVSA-10
Practices/week: Columbia-3, MOCO-3, MDJrs-3, MVSA-2
Uniforms: Columbia-No ($not specified), MD Jrs-No ($290), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Balltime/HUDL Video (1): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No
Skills clinics/academy: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Coach Travel Covered: Columbia-Yes, Md Jrs-No (min $200 deposit), MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Yes
Coach Stipend Covered: Columbia-Yes, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-N/A
Strength & Conditioning (2): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-No, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-No

Tournament schedules (3) (based off last year with updates for this year)
# of travel tournaments, excluding nationals (overnight stay): Columbia-8*, MD Jrs-4, MOCO-6, MVSA-4
# of Multi-day non-travel tournaments: Columbia-2, MD Jrs-2, MOCO-4, MVSA-3
# of local one day tournaments: Columbia-2, MD JRs-4, MOCO-2, MVSA-6
Nationals Included (USAV/AAU): Columbia-No, MD Jrs-Yes, MOCO-Yes, MVSA-Not specified (past years this was an add-on)
Total # of Tournaments: Columbia-12, MD JRs-12**, MOCO-13, MVSA-13

* Columbia say they attend 10 multi-day travel tournaments but their schedule shows only 8.
** MDJrs schedule is missing a couple of tournaments, and their count includes their internal club tournament.

1-HUDL/Balltime public prices are $1,600 for HUDL, $2,400 for Balltime. Clubs likely get a discount on these prices.
2-Strength & Conditioning prices are variable, but average $30-$40/hr at a fitness center in small group and higher in individual training. Clubs likely get a discount on this price
3-Tournament costs are public info, check AES or Sportwrench. Generally, 2 day local tournaments and 2 day day travel tournament registration costs ~2x a 1 day tournament. 3 day travel tournaments cost ~2.5x at 1 day tournament. Nationals costs ~$1,000 for the team entry.
The # of practices and clinics, strength training, video, and multi-day tournaments have a big impact on the relative price of clubs. You can choose if you value those things or not.

Hope this helps someone make objective comparisons of club fees. This same approach should work for any club/team you want to compare. Feel free to add more cost areas if anything is missing.

This is truly great information, and it's much appreciated that you took the time to do all this research and share this. The comment that is incoming isn't directed at you, but just a response to the people who are complaining about the prices in general. This is the free market, and some club people do this for a living. Just like any person would advocate for the most competitive salary, why can't clubs do the same with their tuitions? If parents don't believe that a club's price tag is justified, they can simply choose a club that is less expensive. There are some clubs (namely Metro and Paramount) whose price tag is justified given the platform and opportunities these clubs provide their athletes (especially in the form of athletic scholarships to D1 schools). However, I don't see any other club in the area whose accomplishments could justify any parent paying $5,000+. However, in the free market of CHRVA volleyball, what plays out every year is that there are families who are willing to pay the price tag.

I believe you are correct - they are allowed to charge whatever they want. But I also have the right to speak up against their practices and call out their greed. You may consider that free market is what should guide us, I believe free speech allows me to call them out. I am curious though, why would you try to protect their interest and try to shut down the conversation based on a free market arguments?

NP—
But I am curious about your question. I feel like you must be younger than GenX for this to be your mindset. Because yes—the concept of the free market is a fundamental guiding principle of a capitalist society. Which you clearly either don’t understand or don’t support.
That’s fine if you acknowledge that, but then that’s you “shutting down” the very logical explanation PP provided as to why things are the way they are in pricing. Supply/demand is a very real concept in a free market society that offers concrete explanation.
It’s fascinating that you use the justification of “free speech” to support your argument for “calling out greed” but then characterize the other person’s speech in support of the free market as an attempt to “shut down the conversation”???
Interesting.

Here comes the "you must be very young and unexperienced" argument. I already agreed that free market is a good reason (it's the first sentence in the text that you quoted). However, as a consumer, I don't want this to be the end of the conversation. I want transparency on fees because transparency keeps you honest. If you are ok with price gouging, you can find a hero like Martin Shkreli and lecture me how the capitalist society benefited from free market.

Who tried to end the conversation? Disagreeing with you doesn't mean that someone is trying to stifle your free speech or end the conversation. If DCUM has taught us anything it's that anonymous strangers on the interwebs love to argue so ending the conversation is seldom the objective.

That said, I don't think aggressively calling out clubs as "greedy" and accusing them of "price gouging" on these forums is going to change anything. While I'm sure there are some club directors or others on these forums, I doubt that most are even aware that they are being discussed.

Shifting to other ideas for addressing high club fees, if you are interested in a club, have a conversation with the club director about cost. Asking for transparency is a reasonable way to articulate your concern. Another way to frame the question would be in terms of a comparison with other clubs. "I see your fees are $X and another club we are considering has fees of $Y. Can you help me understand why your fees are so much higher?"

And while this might not be the grand, systemic change you are looking for, don't be afraid to ask if there is something you can do to reduce the fees in your particular circumstance. Some clubs offer scholarships or reduced fees in cases of financial need. Other clubs will reduce fees if you take on a role within a club. Early in my DD's club experience, I started out as an assistant coach and eventually became a head coach. Instead of being paid, the fees for my DD were reduced or waived altogether. The club also paid for hotels and had a per diem for travel tournaments so it was a pretty big savings. While I did play volleyball many years ago, I know of multiple people with almost no volleyball experience that became good coaches. I've also heard of clubs offering credit for taking on a significant volunteer role within a team - things like being the one who drafts and sends out all the communications for the team and helping to make other arrangements. Finally, there is a local foundation that helps a few athletes every year, including with things like club fee https://www.sportsmom.org/.

Thank you for the advice that would make it easier for some folks to reduce their club fees. A discussion about fees with a club director is very uncomfortable, especially in this area where everyone seems to shovel green. I cannot claim that I am poor either, but a few thousands each year would look much better in my retirement account than wherever it goas after I pay inflated club fees.

You might be right about (not) affecting change based on DCUM forum discussions. Or you might be wrong because you simply make assumptions. Since you are a coach, you may (or may not) talk to your club director about what parents think. At least one club director (LVA) seems to be on this thread in the middle of the price gauging conversation (maybe there will be a podcast or a video coming out on this topic). If we keep our mouths shut even on anonymous forums, how do club directors learn that parents are not happy with their inflated fees?

Am I missing something? Why do people keep suggesting they are being told to keep their mouths shut? There have been posts defending clubs but I don't recall seeing anyone who is complaining about fees being told to keep their opinions to themselves.

I didn't see anybody saying that I should keep my mouth shut, But I saw a few people trying to dismiss my arguments based on their perceived understanding of capitalism and free markets. A more recent poster even tried to argue that I was younger than GenX. All these suggestions that I don't understand capitalism or free markets, maybe I am too young to even have an opinion (or a valid opinion) try to dismiss the issues (lack of club fee transparency, inflated fees) by attacking the person who brings them up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is interesting to look into the writing habits of one of the posters who plays defense for LVA around here. I am willing to bet that the posts 09/30/2024 23:33 ("Rooting for LVA"), 10/02/2024 20:17 ("LVA is on the right track"), 10/02/2024 21:31 (the "typical parent") are all written by the same person.

Agreed. While it's not uncommon around here to see posts that were probably written by a club director or at least an involved parent, the Legacy posts seem oddly coordinated with the intent of creating the illusion that multiple people are advocating on their behalf.

[Anonymous]

Unless you know the ends and outs of a club, know the direction, know the volleyball landscape, had conversations with the club, etc. your answer answer should not be a resounding nor most likely anything!!! Your answer should be, well let's do some research and and get answers(FROM THE SOURCE) to see if the purpose and direction of the club fits your player. Little do ppl understand, a lot a clubs will reel you in with what you think is "low" dues, but little do ppl know that the low dues don't always cover tournament costs and other fees that are paid throughout the season that parents will be paying that will eventually add up to the same amount as the "more expensive" clubs in which they are more than likely more expensive cause more is included. So bottom line, make sure you've done your research on any club before assuming or attempting to persuade others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Unless you know the ends and outs of a club, know the direction, know the volleyball landscape, had conversations with the club, etc. your answer answer should not be a resounding nor most likely anything!!! Your answer should be, well let's do some research and and get answers(FROM THE SOURCE) to see if the purpose and direction of the club fits your player. Little do ppl understand, a lot a clubs will reel you in with what you think is "low" dues, but little do ppl know that the low dues don't always cover tournament costs and other fees that are paid throughout the season that parents will be paying that will eventually add up to the same amount as the "more expensive" clubs in which they are more than likely more expensive cause more is included. So bottom line, make sure you've done your research on any club before assuming or attempting to persuade others.

Clubs can and should be able to charge whatever they want. A first year club charging as much as Legacy is charging is intriguing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless you know the ends and outs of a club, know the direction, know the volleyball landscape, had conversations with the club, etc. your answer answer should not be a resounding nor most likely anything!!! Your answer should be, well let's do some research and and get answers(FROM THE SOURCE) to see if the purpose and direction of the club fits your player. Little do ppl understand, a lot a clubs will reel you in with what you think is "low" dues, but little do ppl know that the low dues don't always cover tournament costs and other fees that are paid throughout the season that parents will be paying that will eventually add up to the same amount as the "more expensive" clubs in which they are more than likely more expensive cause more is included. So bottom line, make sure you've done your research on any club before assuming or attempting to persuade others.

Clubs can and should be able to charge whatever they want. A first year club charging as much as Legacy is charging is intriguing.

Martin Shkreli would definitely agree with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless you know the ends and outs of a club, know the direction, know the volleyball landscape, had conversations with the club, etc. your answer answer should not be a resounding nor most likely anything!!! Your answer should be, well let's do some research and and get answers(FROM THE SOURCE) to see if the purpose and direction of the club fits your player. Little do ppl understand, a lot a clubs will reel you in with what you think is "low" dues, but little do ppl know that the low dues don't always cover tournament costs and other fees that are paid throughout the season that parents will be paying that will eventually add up to the same amount as the "more expensive" clubs in which they are more than likely more expensive cause more is included. So bottom line, make sure you've done your research on any club before assuming or attempting to persuade others.

Clubs can and should be able to charge whatever they want. A first year club charging as much as Legacy is charging is intriguing.

Martin Shkreli would definitely agree with you.

You know you've lost the debate when you resort to insulting the person who disagrees with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is interesting to look into the writing habits of one of the posters who plays defense for LVA around here. I am willing to bet that the posts 09/30/2024 23:33 ("Rooting for LVA"), 10/02/2024 20:17 ("LVA is on the right track"), 10/02/2024 21:31 (the "typical parent") are all written by the same person.

Agreed. While it's not uncommon around here to see posts that were probably written by a club director or at least an involved parent, the Legacy posts seem oddly coordinated with the intent of creating the illusion that multiple people are advocating on their behalf.

You people are crazy. I’m the typical parent poster and posted one follow up saying all of the clubs my daughter is trying out for are around that amount. I’m a mom fairly new to all of this and you think I’m secretly the director?