Practical differences between AP and IB in FCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it easier to enroll students into IB but not AP courses, especially at underperforming FCPS schools? Is IB program less rigorous or does it come with adjustable rigor to fit the caliber of student cohort?

IB classes come in two flavors, one is High Level comparable with AP, the other Standard Level comparable with a regular class, and generally don’t get you any college credit. A weaker student could take an SL class a la carte, but I can’t imagine why that would be beneficial in any way.

Because they would learn things they would not learn in any other class, particularly the "vanilla" (non-honors/AP/IB) classes. Good God you are stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is IB not offered at any of the top fcps high schools?

Everyone (besides IB cheerleaders or AP trolls) would agree that in a head to head between most solid/top FCPS high schools and IB schools a kid who is very interested in pre-med/STEM/advanced math or science courses is going to be at a disadvantage or at least have to worker much harder (attributable to inefficiencies due to non-stem/math/science course work) an IB school where they won’t have the ability to select among the range of AP courses focusing solely on those subjects. Top FCPS have a disproportionate number of passionate parents who are pushing their kids to focus on stem/advanced math & science course. So, it’s no surprise there is no push from parents. And why would school leadership rock the boat with no ground swell of backing?

As far as earning college credit goes for calculus and calculus-based physics, yes, IB must concede. But if you're really going to dive into such detail as saying a pre-med student is better off at AP, then that needs to be backed up. Arguably IB Chemistry covers a broader set of topics including organic chem and the HL option for medicinal chem or biochem (33% of the year is devoted to those topics), while giving the same credits as AP Chemistry. Kids can take two IB sciences, so doubling that up with IB Bio or IB Physics is entirely possible.

FWIW, IB Physics gives credit for a full year of Principles of Physics for Pre-Health at UVA.

[Anonymous]

AP is so much more practical and flexible. It’s really not even open to debate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is it easier to enroll students into IB but not AP courses, especially at underperforming FCPS schools? Is IB program less rigorous or does it come with adjustable rigor to fit the caliber of student cohort?

What are you talking about? It’s easier to enroll students in any underperforming school bc parents flee that school. Herndon HS might flee for South Lakes for IB (they are really fleeing the school not AP). Likewise parents might flee a low performing IB school for an AP school. IB is not less rigorous. It’s less flexible than AP if you are going for the diploma. But please research beyond DCUM esp. the FCPS forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is IB not offered at any of the top fcps high schools?

Everyone (besides IB cheerleaders or AP trolls) would agree that in a head to head between most solid/top FCPS high schools and IB schools a kid who is very interested in pre-med/STEM/advanced math or science courses is going to be at a disadvantage or at least have to worker much harder (attributable to inefficiencies due to non-stem/math/science course work) an IB school where they won’t have the ability to select among the range of AP courses focusing solely on those subjects. Top FCPS have a disproportionate number of passionate parents who are pushing their kids to focus on stem/advanced math & science course. So, it’s no surprise there is no push from parents. And why would school leadership rock the boat with no ground swell of backing?

As far as earning college credit goes for calculus and calculus-based physics, yes, IB must concede. But if you're really going to dive into such detail as saying a pre-med student is better off at AP, then that needs to be backed up. Arguably IB Chemistry covers a broader set of topics including organic chem and the HL option for medicinal chem or biochem (33% of the year is devoted to those topics), while giving the same credits as AP Chemistry. Kids can take two IB sciences, so doubling that up with IB Bio or IB Physics is entirely possible.

FWIW, IB Physics gives credit for a full year of Principles of Physics for Pre-Health at UVA.

The disadvantages of IB compared to AP have been discussed in length on multiple threads, and on the other hand I haven’t heard a good argument on IB advantages over AP. So at some point, why even bother with the IB? If you want to learn how to write take the two AP English classes. Math and Physics, better in AP. I get that you’re an IB supporter but the arguments put forward are not very convincing.

If they are both good programs, fine, but one is clearly better than the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it easier to enroll students into IB but not AP courses, especially at underperforming FCPS schools? Is IB program less rigorous or does it come with adjustable rigor to fit the caliber of student cohort?

IB classes come in two flavors, one is High Level comparable with AP, the other Standard Level comparable with a regular class, and generally don’t get you any college credit. A weaker student could take an SL class a la carte, but I can’t imagine why that would be beneficial in any way.

Because they would learn things they would not learn in any other class, particularly the "vanilla" (non-honors/AP/IB) classes. Good God you are stupid.

You really are dumb.

SL are most definitely non college level classes. There’s no reason to take SL classes if the other option is the AP equivalent. If the student can’t handle the AP class, even dual enrollment would be more beneficial than the SL class, because at the end of the day you get some advanced coursework and college credit under your belt.

Just to humor you, let’s say you take SL Math instead of regular Precalculus, how is the SL class better? It’s a confusing hodgepodge of algebra, geometry, precalculus, statistics, and calculus that’s very superficial across all topics and it will cover everything from simple stuff like linear and quadratic equations all the way to derivatives and integrals in the time span of one school year. It’s so shallow that it’s relying heavily on memorization, so it’s going to be disastrous for the kids taking the class. They’d be much better off with the “vanilla” precalculus that at least in the precalculus topics will go much deeper than the SL class. IB curriculum is actually terrible when you look into what’s in the syllabus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it easier to enroll students into IB but not AP courses, especially at underperforming FCPS schools? Is IB program less rigorous or does it come with adjustable rigor to fit the caliber of student cohort?

IB classes come in two flavors, one is High Level comparable with AP, the other Standard Level comparable with a regular class, and generally don’t get you any college credit. A weaker student could take an SL class a la carte, but I can’t imagine why that would be beneficial in any way.

Because they would learn things they would not learn in any other class, particularly the "vanilla" (non-honors/AP/IB) classes. Good God you are stupid.

You really are dumb.

SL are most definitely non college level classes. There’s no reason to take SL classes if the other option is the AP equivalent. If the student can’t handle the AP class, even dual enrollment would be more beneficial than the SL class, because at the end of the day you get some advanced coursework and college credit under your belt.

Just to humor you, let’s say you take SL Math instead of regular Precalculus, how is the SL class better? It’s a confusing hodgepodge of algebra, geometry, precalculus, statistics, and calculus that’s very superficial across all topics and it will cover everything from simple stuff like linear and quadratic equations all the way to derivatives and integrals in the time span of one school year. It’s so shallow that it’s relying heavily on memorization, so it’s going to be disastrous for the kids taking the class. They’d be much better off with the “vanilla” precalculus that at least in the precalculus topics will go much deeper than the SL class. IB curriculum is actually terrible when you look into what’s in the syllabus.

You are a moron who lacks all reading comprehension.

The specific assertion was that a weaker student taking an IB SL class was not "beneficial in any way". The argument was not that SL classes are better than AP classes, which I did not argue either so your attack on that idea is irrelevant.

Nor is a weaker student really looking for "advanced coursework and college credit" so your babbling about that is also irrelevant.

A weaker student who takes an IB SL class is absolutely going to learn something. This is beneficial if you believe learning is beneficial, dumbass.

[Anonymous]

The single biggest problem kids have adjusting to college is the amount of writing (and I'd say the same for the workforce as well), IB is far superior for building up writing skills, which is why the AP proponents can only bring up math and science (which even there the IB kids have plenty of rigor if not as many options).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it easier to enroll students into IB but not AP courses, especially at underperforming FCPS schools? Is IB program less rigorous or does it come with adjustable rigor to fit the caliber of student cohort?

IB classes come in two flavors, one is High Level comparable with AP, the other Standard Level comparable with a regular class, and generally don’t get you any college credit. A weaker student could take an SL class a la carte, but I can’t imagine why that would be beneficial in any way.

Because they would learn things they would not learn in any other class, particularly the "vanilla" (non-honors/AP/IB) classes. Good God you are stupid.

You really are dumb.

SL are most definitely non college level classes. There’s no reason to take SL classes if the other option is the AP equivalent. If the student can’t handle the AP class, even dual enrollment would be more beneficial than the SL class, because at the end of the day you get some advanced coursework and college credit under your belt.

Just to humor you, let’s say you take SL Math instead of regular Precalculus, how is the SL class better? It’s a confusing hodgepodge of algebra, geometry, precalculus, statistics, and calculus that’s very superficial across all topics and it will cover everything from simple stuff like linear and quadratic equations all the way to derivatives and integrals in the time span of one school year. It’s so shallow that it’s relying heavily on memorization, so it’s going to be disastrous for the kids taking the class. They’d be much better off with the “vanilla” precalculus that at least in the precalculus topics will go much deeper than the SL class. IB curriculum is actually terrible when you look into what’s in the syllabus.

You are a moron who lacks all reading comprehension.

The specific assertion was that a weaker student taking an IB SL class was not "beneficial in any way". The argument was not that SL classes are better than AP classes, which I did not argue either so your attack on that idea is irrelevant.

Nor is a weaker student really looking for "advanced coursework and college credit" so your babbling about that is also irrelevant.

A weaker student who takes an IB SL class is absolutely going to learn something. This is beneficial if you believe learning is beneficial, dumbass.

The alternative to the IB class were implied, but sure, taking an SL class is better than not going to school at all.

[Anonymous]

Well in Vienna where I’ve lived for a long time, IB and AAP is a gateway to school choice AKA gaming the system to get your DC to onto a preferred varsity team. Select Marshall for IB if you want your DC to have an easier chance of making the team. Do not tell anyone this.

Madison is AAP and now known as a “sports school” so chose wisely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The single biggest problem kids have adjusting to college is the amount of writing (and I'd say the same for the workforce as well), IB is far superior for building up writing skills, which is why the AP proponents can only bring up math and science (which even there the IB kids have plenty of rigor if not as many options).

People bring up math and sciences because they are required in majors leading to successful careers.

You can use earnings as a proxy:
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/03/24/best-and-worst-paying-college-majors-5-years-after-graduation.html

Top 10 earnings by major:
1. Computer engineering $80,000
2. Chemical engineering $79,000
3. Computer science $78,000
4. Aerospace engineering $74,000
5. Electrical engineering $72,000
6. Industrial engineering $71,000
7. Mechanical engineering $70,000
8. General engineering $68,000
9. Miscellaneous engineering $68,000
10. Finance $66,000

Virtually all require a lot of math plus some science. Really doubtful writing is the biggest issue those majors and careers are facing, it’s the ability to do well in stem classes. In the workplace companies hire technical writers all the time to support their staff deficient in that area.

The humanities kids in IB still have to deal with the same issues as the stem kids, you can’t take more classes in your area of interest, eg one English and one history, and have to waste your time with the ToK, CAS, EE fluff, that admittedly has more of a humanities flavor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well in Vienna where I’ve lived for a long time, IB and AAP is a gateway to school choice AKA gaming the system to get your DC to onto a preferred varsity team. Select Marshall for IB if you want your DC to have an easier chance of making the team. Do not tell anyone this.

Madison is AAP and now known as a “sports school” so chose wisely.

Yeah it’s not really a secret. Madison has always been sports centric but they also have other good programs. And it’s AP and IB. AAP is ES and MS. Full time AAP kids at Kilmer end up both at Madison and Marshall. And TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The single biggest problem kids have adjusting to college is the amount of writing (and I'd say the same for the workforce as well), IB is far superior for building up writing skills, which is why the AP proponents can only bring up math and science (which even there the IB kids have plenty of rigor if not as many options).

People bring up math and sciences because they are required in majors leading to successful careers.

You can use earnings as a proxy:
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/03/24/best-and-worst-paying-college-majors-5-years-after-graduation.html

Top 10 earnings by major:
1. Computer engineering $80,000
2. Chemical engineering $79,000
3. Computer science $78,000
4. Aerospace engineering $74,000
5. Electrical engineering $72,000
6. Industrial engineering $71,000
7. Mechanical engineering $70,000
8. General engineering $68,000
9. Miscellaneous engineering $68,000
10. Finance $66,000

Virtually all require a lot of math plus some science. Really doubtful writing is the biggest issue those majors and careers are facing, it’s the ability to do well in stem classes. In the workplace companies hire technical writers all the time to support their staff deficient in that area.

The humanities kids in IB still have to deal with the same issues as the stem kids, you can’t take more classes in your area of interest, eg one English and one history, and have to waste your time with the ToK, CAS, EE fluff, that admittedly has more of a humanities flavor.

I think the “STEM is the end all and be all” parents are going to be in for a rude awakening with AI and everything else coming down the pike. The golden age of CS being certain $ is gone. I’m not saying go major in basket weaving but things are changing. And given the current state of affairs, maybe we need as much emphasis on humanities as STEM in K-12.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The single biggest problem kids have adjusting to college is the amount of writing (and I'd say the same for the workforce as well), IB is far superior for building up writing skills, which is why the AP proponents can only bring up math and science (which even there the IB kids have plenty of rigor if not as many options).

People bring up math and sciences because they are required in majors leading to successful careers.

You can use earnings as a proxy:
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/03/24/best-and-worst-paying-college-majors-5-years-after-graduation.html

Top 10 earnings by major:
1. Computer engineering $80,000
2. Chemical engineering $79,000
3. Computer science $78,000
4. Aerospace engineering $74,000
5. Electrical engineering $72,000
6. Industrial engineering $71,000
7. Mechanical engineering $70,000
8. General engineering $68,000
9. Miscellaneous engineering $68,000
10. Finance $66,000

Virtually all require a lot of math plus some science. Really doubtful writing is the biggest issue those majors and careers are facing, it’s the ability to do well in stem classes. In the workplace companies hire technical writers all the time to support their staff deficient in that area.

The humanities kids in IB still have to deal with the same issues as the stem kids, you can’t take more classes in your area of interest, eg one English and one history, and have to waste your time with the ToK, CAS, EE fluff, that admittedly has more of a humanities flavor.

I think the “STEM is the end all and be all” parents are going to be in for a rude awakening with AI and everything else coming down the pike. The golden age of CS being certain $ is gone. I’m not saying go major in basket weaving but things are changing. And given the current state of affairs, maybe we need as much emphasis on humanities as STEM in K-12.

There are plenty of basket weaving majors in humanities. I’m very skeptical that emphasis on humanities will be the driver for increased productivity.

In fact the outlook is very bleak for humanities, not to say is super bright for stem either but at least it’s not terrible.

https://www.observer-reporter.com/opinion/op-eds/2024/mar/23/humanities-programs-are-vanishing-from-universities/

We all know about the cliche of the English major barista, or gender studies major living in the parents basement. You don’t hear often about engineering majors in those situations to be honest.

To go back to the point of the thread, given how competitive in demand majors are, you want to spend your time wisely on rigorous coursework in high school, hence the beef with the IB program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The single biggest problem kids have adjusting to college is the amount of writing (and I'd say the same for the workforce as well), IB is far superior for building up writing skills, which is why the AP proponents can only bring up math and science (which even there the IB kids have plenty of rigor if not as many options).

People bring up math and sciences because they are required in majors leading to successful careers.

You can use earnings as a proxy:
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/03/24/best-and-worst-paying-college-majors-5-years-after-graduation.html

Top 10 earnings by major:
1. Computer engineering $80,000
2. Chemical engineering $79,000
3. Computer science $78,000
4. Aerospace engineering $74,000
5. Electrical engineering $72,000
6. Industrial engineering $71,000
7. Mechanical engineering $70,000
8. General engineering $68,000
9. Miscellaneous engineering $68,000
10. Finance $66,000

Virtually all require a lot of math plus some science. Really doubtful writing is the biggest issue those majors and careers are facing, it’s the ability to do well in stem classes. In the workplace companies hire technical writers all the time to support their staff deficient in that area.

The humanities kids in IB still have to deal with the same issues as the stem kids, you can’t take more classes in your area of interest, eg one English and one history, and have to waste your time with the ToK, CAS, EE fluff, that admittedly has more of a humanities flavor.

Yeah, pretty much zero science needed for those computer careers at the top of the list, and the computer industry people who make the most money are the ones who can communicate.