Surrogacy abroad

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

No, not everyone who experiences infertility makes their problem other people’s problem as well.

Easy for you to talk when you’ve effortlessly popped out your kids.

Did you have a surrogate? Is that why youre so defensive? You feel guilty over paying a poor person to grow your child?

Yes, I had a surrogate. And no, I don’t feel guilty.

Uh huh. That’s why you’re so defensive and insecure in your choice.

Why would I be defensive and insecure? My wonderful GC is a college graduate, happily married with 4 kids of her own in a mid-Western town and was also GC for another family. We have always maintained a close bond with her and her family. Continue spewing your bile if you choose to.

[Anonymous]

Bringing awareness to the horrific practices discussed in a thread isn’t ‘trolling’. Just because rich white ladies can’t love an adopted child as their own and neeeeed a dna mini-me doesn’t make it ok to support trafficking of women and purchase of human beings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you want to travel to some poor country and pay an impoverished woman to get pregnant and carry your child? That seems ethical to you?

Bet you pay impoverished women to produce your adorbz housewares and clothing all the time. Hypocrite.

Implanting a fetus inside a poor woman’s body and all the health risks that come with it, is a lot worse.

I think surrogacy should only be allowed between friends and family when done for altruistic reasons. But I also believe it should be illegal for people to sell their kidneys (and other organs.) selling body parts is by definition set up to exploit poor people — that doesn’t change when you only “rent” the body parts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

if what happens? I asked this upthread and you still havent answered?

What is the line where its justifiable to impregnate women like cattle and buy their baby?

This is incredibly insulting towards women who choose to become surrogates.

When cattle are sentient, can make their own decisions about their bodies, and are fairly compensated for their labor, it will be a fair analogy. Until then, you’re babbling.

Your dogged refusal to allow these women any agency at all is pretty gross and paternalistic.

What is this? Who decides? Have you read the articles posted about this being borderline trafficking?

Those pearls of journalistic wisdom you are referring to is just one article by a muck journalist for the India Times who has been discredited for making up propaganda and lies many times.

https://www.opindia.com/2020/02/india-times-shweta-sengar-fake-news-propaganda/amp/

Don’t you think if you were hired to try to justify ending surrogacy in India, you’d make up lies about what was happening with surrogacy in Ukraine? I don’t believe a syllable of that article. It’s hardly a hard hitting article by a respected, trusted journalist.

India Times isn't good enough? You want more? It's not hard to google. Here's a BBC article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42845602

"We have seen examples where Ukrainian agencies have refused to pay the surrogate if she doesn't adhere to strict requirements, if she miscarries," says Mr Everingham. "There are some awful examples where agencies really treated surrogates dreadfully in Ukraine if things haven't worked out to the benefit of parents."

"The industry, Ms Bogomolets says, is not sufficiently regulated and this lack of oversight can put both surrogate mothers and the paying parents at risk."

And another:

https://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Areas/Ukraine/Surrogate-motherhood-and-exploitation-in-Ukraine-203929

"...many clinics (not registered or under a false name), foreign couples, intermediary agencies, or even improvised surrogate mothers do things under the table in order not to pay taxes, obviously without taking care of any consequences if something goes wrong."

' "Two-thirds of the surrogacy market in Ukraine is illegal", says Serhiy Antonov, jurist at IRTSA Ukraine (International Agency for Assistance in Auxiliary Reproduction Technologies), who stresses how easy it is to find surrogate mothers on social networks, instant messaging services (Viber, Telegram), job search platforms, or even on advertising spaces on the underground.'

Take a closer look at those articles. They’re basically the same thing as the first India Times one. Look at article number two. Like the India Times article it’s obvious Islamic propaganda from Al Jezeera. Sharia law prohibits surrogacy.

I’m not a Muslim and will never be, but I’ll bet the guy, Kevin Ponniah, who wrote the BBC article is.

You can’t keep showing me articles from journalists blinded by their Islamic faith and call that evidence of the immorality of surrogacy.

I’ll hardly defer to sharia law on any moral grounds let alone women’s rights issues.

What makes you think that? From a quick Google tour, Mr. Pooniah is born and raised in Australia. There are obviously Muslims in Australia, but what exactly is it about a guy named "Kevin" that makes you think he's promulgating Shari'a law?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

No, not everyone who experiences infertility makes their problem other people’s problem as well.

Easy for you to talk when you’ve effortlessly popped out your kids.

Did you have a surrogate? Is that why youre so defensive? You feel guilty over paying a poor person to grow your child?

Yes, I had a surrogate. And no, I don’t feel guilty.

Uh huh. That’s why you’re so defensive and insecure in your choice.

Why would I be defensive and insecure? My wonderful GC is a college graduate, happily married with 4 kids of her own in a mid-Western town and was also GC for another family. We have always maintained a close bond with her and her family. Continue spewing your bile if you choose to.

Okay, so you do know that your middle-class well-educated American GC is not the topic of this thread, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

No, not everyone who experiences infertility makes their problem other people’s problem as well.

Easy for you to talk when you’ve effortlessly popped out your kids.

Did you have a surrogate? Is that why youre so defensive? You feel guilty over paying a poor person to grow your child?

Yes, I had a surrogate. And no, I don’t feel guilty.

Uh huh. That’s why you’re so defensive and insecure in your choice.

I never had a surrogate and easily popped out kids. So, you can’t accuse me of feeling desperate or defensive about it. I support it wholeheartedly.

I think it’s a miracle of medical science and humanity that doctors can take a little egg, a tiny sperm and create an embryo in a Petri dish to then implant in a willing surrogate. It’s amazing that the surrogate’s body doesn’t reject the foreign dna and that a baby can grow.

I am delighted for the infertile women (and their husbands if they have them) who can now have the babies they dreamed about. I’m thrilled that gay men are no longer relegated to be uncles or doggie daddies and can have a family and be loved as a parent like everyone else.

I do not think paid surrogacy is immoral, appalling or bad in any way. I am sure that things can go wrong, but for me the good outweighs the potential bad.

To the rabid anti surrogacy posters, I have this to say: there is no argument you can make that will persuade me to change my views on the subject. My opinion isn’t relevant to you, I get it, but yours is unwarranted on an infertility board where people are seeking support in achieving the families THEY want. It’s not about you.

Can’t you all leave this board and get together and form some sort of private anti surrogacy one? You can email each other back and forth about the evils of surrogacy, and equate it to slavery until the cows come home.

But can’t you just get lost from this infertility support group? You’re insensitive and misguided to say the least.

Get lost!

You sound like the people who were rabidly defending international adoption about ten years ago even though by then it had been proven extensively and with enormous amounts of evidence that the practice was corrupt, exploitative, and in many instances literally a baby-stealing operation. We knew for years that the practice was immoral and unethical and yet it took many years for it to be as restrictive as it is now, and even now there are still problems. Why? Because of people like you who so favor wealthy people in the West that they’re willing to literally excuse stealing babies. And yes, people like you tried to shut down conversations on infertility boards when people started asking for referrals to adoption agencies in Guatemala or China or Ethiopia. I remember that too, these self-appointed defenders of the infertile who would rush in when people said that international adoption was unethical.

I will never understand people like you. I will never understand someone who elevates the desire of people of wealthy people in the west to have children so highly that any and all ethical issues are to be swept aside and discussion shut down.

In any event, even if you want to close your eyes and pretend the horrific abuses rampant in the surrogacy industry aren’t there, this conversation will come up anyhow for practical reasons related to OPs question: the practice is being increasingly shut down around the world because of those abuses. Therefore even if OP wants to close her eyes to the abuses, she will practically have to deal with them because her options are increasingly limited.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

if what happens? I asked this upthread and you still havent answered?

What is the line where its justifiable to impregnate women like cattle and buy their baby?

This is incredibly insulting towards women who choose to become surrogates.

When cattle are sentient, can make their own decisions about their bodies, and are fairly compensated for their labor, it will be a fair analogy. Until then, you’re babbling.

Your dogged refusal to allow these women any agency at all is pretty gross and paternalistic.

What is this? Who decides? Have you read the articles posted about this being borderline trafficking?

Those pearls of journalistic wisdom you are referring to is just one article by a muck journalist for the India Times who has been discredited for making up propaganda and lies many times.

https://www.opindia.com/2020/02/india-times-shweta-sengar-fake-news-propaganda/amp/

Don’t you think if you were hired to try to justify ending surrogacy in India, you’d make up lies about what was happening with surrogacy in Ukraine? I don’t believe a syllable of that article. It’s hardly a hard hitting article by a respected, trusted journalist.

India Times isn't good enough? You want more? It's not hard to google. Here's a BBC article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42845602

"We have seen examples where Ukrainian agencies have refused to pay the surrogate if she doesn't adhere to strict requirements, if she miscarries," says Mr Everingham. "There are some awful examples where agencies really treated surrogates dreadfully in Ukraine if things haven't worked out to the benefit of parents."

"The industry, Ms Bogomolets says, is not sufficiently regulated and this lack of oversight can put both surrogate mothers and the paying parents at risk."

And another:

https://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Areas/Ukraine/Surrogate-motherhood-and-exploitation-in-Ukraine-203929

"...many clinics (not registered or under a false name), foreign couples, intermediary agencies, or even improvised surrogate mothers do things under the table in order not to pay taxes, obviously without taking care of any consequences if something goes wrong."

' "Two-thirds of the surrogacy market in Ukraine is illegal", says Serhiy Antonov, jurist at IRTSA Ukraine (International Agency for Assistance in Auxiliary Reproduction Technologies), who stresses how easy it is to find surrogate mothers on social networks, instant messaging services (Viber, Telegram), job search platforms, or even on advertising spaces on the underground.'

Take a closer look at those articles. They’re basically the same thing as the first India Times one. Look at article number two. Like the India Times article it’s obvious Islamic propaganda from Al Jezeera. Sharia law prohibits surrogacy.

I’m not a Muslim and will never be, but I’ll bet the guy, Kevin Ponniah, who wrote the BBC article is.

You can’t keep showing me articles from journalists blinded by their Islamic faith and call that evidence of the immorality of surrogacy.

I’ll hardly defer to sharia law on any moral grounds let alone women’s rights issues.

What makes you think that? From a quick Google tour, Mr. Pooniah is born and raised in Australia. There are obviously Muslims in Australia, but what exactly is it about a guy named "Kevin" that makes you think he's promulgating Shari'a law?

That PP is an anti-Muslim racist. I can’t believe that PP jumped to “must be a sharia-believing jihadist” because a journalist reported thoughtfully on known abuses in the surrogacy industry globally. That is disgusting racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

if what happens? I asked this upthread and you still havent answered?

What is the line where its justifiable to impregnate women like cattle and buy their baby?

This is incredibly insulting towards women who choose to become surrogates.

When cattle are sentient, can make their own decisions about their bodies, and are fairly compensated for their labor, it will be a fair analogy. Until then, you’re babbling.

Your dogged refusal to allow these women any agency at all is pretty gross and paternalistic.

What is this? Who decides? Have you read the articles posted about this being borderline trafficking?

Those pearls of journalistic wisdom you are referring to is just one article by a muck journalist for the India Times who has been discredited for making up propaganda and lies many times.

https://www.opindia.com/2020/02/india-times-shweta-sengar-fake-news-propaganda/amp/

Don’t you think if you were hired to try to justify ending surrogacy in India, you’d make up lies about what was happening with surrogacy in Ukraine? I don’t believe a syllable of that article. It’s hardly a hard hitting article by a respected, trusted journalist.

India Times isn't good enough? You want more? It's not hard to google. Here's a BBC article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42845602

"We have seen examples where Ukrainian agencies have refused to pay the surrogate if she doesn't adhere to strict requirements, if she miscarries," says Mr Everingham. "There are some awful examples where agencies really treated surrogates dreadfully in Ukraine if things haven't worked out to the benefit of parents."

"The industry, Ms Bogomolets says, is not sufficiently regulated and this lack of oversight can put both surrogate mothers and the paying parents at risk."

And another:

https://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Areas/Ukraine/Surrogate-motherhood-and-exploitation-in-Ukraine-203929

"...many clinics (not registered or under a false name), foreign couples, intermediary agencies, or even improvised surrogate mothers do things under the table in order not to pay taxes, obviously without taking care of any consequences if something goes wrong."

' "Two-thirds of the surrogacy market in Ukraine is illegal", says Serhiy Antonov, jurist at IRTSA Ukraine (International Agency for Assistance in Auxiliary Reproduction Technologies), who stresses how easy it is to find surrogate mothers on social networks, instant messaging services (Viber, Telegram), job search platforms, or even on advertising spaces on the underground.'

Take a closer look at those articles. They’re basically the same thing as the first India Times one. Look at article number two. Like the India Times article it’s obvious Islamic propaganda from Al Jezeera. Sharia law prohibits surrogacy.

I’m not a Muslim and will never be, but I’ll bet the guy, Kevin Ponniah, who wrote the BBC article is.

You can’t keep showing me articles from journalists blinded by their Islamic faith and call that evidence of the immorality of surrogacy.

I’ll hardly defer to sharia law on any moral grounds let alone women’s rights issues.

What makes you think that? From a quick Google tour, Mr. Pooniah is born and raised in Australia. There are obviously Muslims in Australia, but what exactly is it about a guy named "Kevin" that makes you think he's promulgating Shari'a law?

PP, I said that because I was trying to get a rise out of the anti surrogacy troll. If you read the whole article, it’s very neutral. I have no idea what Kevin’s background is, but I knew what I said would bother the evil troll who keeps badgering infertile women with her unwanted opinions. And yes, she can take her religion and shove it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, know that most people are not wackadoodle enough to actually think that surrogacy is “purchasing a human being” (wtaf). As you can tell, like adoption, this is an issue that triggers a lot of people’s personal baggage.

A non-anonymous board may be a better resource for you, since anonymous boards really encourage people to let their crazy/vicious flags fly.

I am sure you are intelligent enough to know that there are unethical surrogacies, and a decent enough person to want to avoid that. I wish you luck in finding a better corner of the Internet for actual discussion of what ethical surrogacy can look like, and if it can be ethical to do it across borders (I think it absolutely can be).

Best of luck to you.

+1000

What kills me the most about this thread is the venomous Marxists. They’re ranting about exploitation of poor people when really they’re just ranting against capitalism and trying to pretend they’re being altruistic.

Well, I ask you Marxists, what about firefighters? Should they not be paid? Should rescuing people be done on a volunteer basis, to ensure that no one gets exploited? I mean firefighters put their bodies on the line to go into burning buildings for money, sometimes to rescue much richer people. Look how many died rescuing rich bankers on September 11. That’s as clear an imbalance of power as it gets.

To keep it fair, should they work on a volunteer basis only? In their own neighborhoods? For people of the same ethnicity as they are? (Otherwise, it’s clearly racist.)

Under your line of reasoning, firefighters are being PAID to use their BODIES to rescue other people that should just rescue themselves or deal with their predicament. (I mean sometimes in life you just have to accept your fate. We don’t get everything we want.) It’s appalling, unethical and unconscionable to ask someone else to be paid to use their body to rescue YOU . They’re clearly being unfairly exploited with their paychecks and benefits.

Should people, especially rich people, figure out their own volunteer system of saving themselves from a fire? So as not to expose these working class, mostly White men to the many serious potentially fatal dangers they face in trying to rescue them? It’s not fair to have this sort of imbalance of power.
Firefighters are forced to run into burning buildings FOR MONEY!!!!

You all are nuts and incredibly judgmental. I hope one day you are forced to eat your words in a very personal way.

Same as the crazy thread not-my-child for joining the military. We literally use poor people and trade them college, money or citizenship to go to war zones and die. But yeah surrogacy is the evil threat.

People like you shouldn’t have children. You’re basically justifying slavery because you “need” those slaves. Sick and disgusting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone had personal experience or known someone else to pursue surrogacy abroad? We absolutely can't afford 200K for a US based surrogate, but can afford 50-70K.

Looks like Ukraine is out, Georgia is out
Mexico has some legal issues
Columbia?

Fwiw we are trying a last ditch effort and if not it'll be loss #7 in 3 years. So not for trying. Just cannot carry to term.

Please don’t do this. Why not ask a sister, family member or friend to be your surrogate?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

if what happens? I asked this upthread and you still havent answered?

What is the line where its justifiable to impregnate women like cattle and buy their baby?

This is incredibly insulting towards women who choose to become surrogates.

When cattle are sentient, can make their own decisions about their bodies, and are fairly compensated for their labor, it will be a fair analogy. Until then, you’re babbling.

Your dogged refusal to allow these women any agency at all is pretty gross and paternalistic.

What is this? Who decides? Have you read the articles posted about this being borderline trafficking?

Those pearls of journalistic wisdom you are referring to is just one article by a muck journalist for the India Times who has been discredited for making up propaganda and lies many times.

https://www.opindia.com/2020/02/india-times-shweta-sengar-fake-news-propaganda/amp/

Don’t you think if you were hired to try to justify ending surrogacy in India, you’d make up lies about what was happening with surrogacy in Ukraine? I don’t believe a syllable of that article. It’s hardly a hard hitting article by a respected, trusted journalist.

India Times isn't good enough? You want more? It's not hard to google. Here's a BBC article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42845602

"We have seen examples where Ukrainian agencies have refused to pay the surrogate if she doesn't adhere to strict requirements, if she miscarries," says Mr Everingham. "There are some awful examples where agencies really treated surrogates dreadfully in Ukraine if things haven't worked out to the benefit of parents."

"The industry, Ms Bogomolets says, is not sufficiently regulated and this lack of oversight can put both surrogate mothers and the paying parents at risk."

And another:

https://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Areas/Ukraine/Surrogate-motherhood-and-exploitation-in-Ukraine-203929

"...many clinics (not registered or under a false name), foreign couples, intermediary agencies, or even improvised surrogate mothers do things under the table in order not to pay taxes, obviously without taking care of any consequences if something goes wrong."

' "Two-thirds of the surrogacy market in Ukraine is illegal", says Serhiy Antonov, jurist at IRTSA Ukraine (International Agency for Assistance in Auxiliary Reproduction Technologies), who stresses how easy it is to find surrogate mothers on social networks, instant messaging services (Viber, Telegram), job search platforms, or even on advertising spaces on the underground.'

Take a closer look at those articles. They’re basically the same thing as the first India Times one. Look at article number two. Like the India Times article it’s obvious Islamic propaganda from Al Jezeera. Sharia law prohibits surrogacy.

I’m not a Muslim and will never be, but I’ll bet the guy, Kevin Ponniah, who wrote the BBC article is.

You can’t keep showing me articles from journalists blinded by their Islamic faith and call that evidence of the immorality of surrogacy.

I’ll hardly defer to sharia law on any moral grounds let alone women’s rights issues.

What makes you think that? From a quick Google tour, Mr. Pooniah is born and raised in Australia. There are obviously Muslims in Australia, but what exactly is it about a guy named "Kevin" that makes you think he's promulgating Shari'a law?

PP, I said that because I was trying to get a rise out of the anti surrogacy troll. If you read the whole article, it’s very neutral. I have no idea what Kevin’s background is, but I knew what I said would bother the evil troll who keeps badgering infertile women with her unwanted opinions. And yes, she can take her religion and shove it!

I’m not the PP but this is shocking and awful. You are engaging in disgusting anti-Muslim racism, especially at a time like this globally in the world, just to “get a rise” out of multiple people? What is wrong with you? You do understand that this kind of behavior really weakens your stance, not strengthens it? Anyone who can casually use racism as some sort of joke gotcha is in no position to try to shut down a discussion about very serious issues of exploitation and ethics. You are awful to do this. Just awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

No, not everyone who experiences infertility makes their problem other people’s problem as well.

Easy for you to talk when you’ve effortlessly popped out your kids.

Did you have a surrogate? Is that why youre so defensive? You feel guilty over paying a poor person to grow your child?

Yes, I had a surrogate. And no, I don’t feel guilty.

Uh huh. That’s why you’re so defensive and insecure in your choice.

I never had a surrogate and easily popped out kids. So, you can’t accuse me of feeling desperate or defensive about it. I support it wholeheartedly.

I think it’s a miracle of medical science and humanity that doctors can take a little egg, a tiny sperm and create an embryo in a Petri dish to then implant in a willing surrogate. It’s amazing that the surrogate’s body doesn’t reject the foreign dna and that a baby can grow.

I am delighted for the infertile women (and their husbands if they have them) who can now have the babies they dreamed about. I’m thrilled that gay men are no longer relegated to be uncles or doggie daddies and can have a family and be loved as a parent like everyone else.

I do not think paid surrogacy is immoral, appalling or bad in any way. I am sure that things can go wrong, but for me the good outweighs the potential bad.

To the rabid anti surrogacy posters, I have this to say: there is no argument you can make that will persuade me to change my views on the subject. My opinion isn’t relevant to you, I get it, but yours is unwarranted on an infertility board where people are seeking support in achieving the families THEY want. It’s not about you.

Can’t you all leave this board and get together and form some sort of private anti surrogacy one? You can email each other back and forth about the evils of surrogacy, and equate it to slavery until the cows come home.

But can’t you just get lost from this infertility support group? You’re insensitive and misguided to say the least.

Get lost!

You sound like the people who were rabidly defending international adoption about ten years ago even though by then it had been proven extensively and with enormous amounts of evidence that the practice was corrupt, exploitative, and in many instances literally a baby-stealing operation. We knew for years that the practice was immoral and unethical and yet it took many years for it to be as restrictive as it is now, and even now there are still problems. Why? Because of people like you who so favor wealthy people in the West that they’re willing to literally excuse stealing babies. And yes, people like you tried to shut down conversations on infertility boards when people started asking for referrals to adoption agencies in Guatemala or China or Ethiopia. I remember that too, these self-appointed defenders of the infertile who would rush in when people said that international adoption was unethical.

I will never understand people like you. I will never understand someone who elevates the desire of people of wealthy people in the west to have children so highly that any and all ethical issues are to be swept aside and discussion shut down.

In any event, even if you want to close your eyes and pretend the horrific abuses rampant in the surrogacy industry aren’t there, this conversation will come up anyhow for practical reasons related to OPs question: the practice is being increasingly shut down around the world because of those abuses. Therefore even if OP wants to close her eyes to the abuses, she will practically have to deal with them because her options are increasingly limited.

You are the definition of a TROLL! The OP asked for personal experiences with foreign surrogacy. She didn’t ask about your opinion on its ethics.

Did you have a surrogate? Were you a surrogate? If not, can’t you take your personal opinion and GET LOST!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

if what happens? I asked this upthread and you still havent answered?

What is the line where its justifiable to impregnate women like cattle and buy their baby?

This is incredibly insulting towards women who choose to become surrogates.

When cattle are sentient, can make their own decisions about their bodies, and are fairly compensated for their labor, it will be a fair analogy. Until then, you’re babbling.

Your dogged refusal to allow these women any agency at all is pretty gross and paternalistic.

What is this? Who decides? Have you read the articles posted about this being borderline trafficking?

Those pearls of journalistic wisdom you are referring to is just one article by a muck journalist for the India Times who has been discredited for making up propaganda and lies many times.

https://www.opindia.com/2020/02/india-times-shweta-sengar-fake-news-propaganda/amp/

Don’t you think if you were hired to try to justify ending surrogacy in India, you’d make up lies about what was happening with surrogacy in Ukraine? I don’t believe a syllable of that article. It’s hardly a hard hitting article by a respected, trusted journalist.

India Times isn't good enough? You want more? It's not hard to google. Here's a BBC article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42845602

"We have seen examples where Ukrainian agencies have refused to pay the surrogate if she doesn't adhere to strict requirements, if she miscarries," says Mr Everingham. "There are some awful examples where agencies really treated surrogates dreadfully in Ukraine if things haven't worked out to the benefit of parents."

"The industry, Ms Bogomolets says, is not sufficiently regulated and this lack of oversight can put both surrogate mothers and the paying parents at risk."

And another:

https://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Areas/Ukraine/Surrogate-motherhood-and-exploitation-in-Ukraine-203929

"...many clinics (not registered or under a false name), foreign couples, intermediary agencies, or even improvised surrogate mothers do things under the table in order not to pay taxes, obviously without taking care of any consequences if something goes wrong."

' "Two-thirds of the surrogacy market in Ukraine is illegal", says Serhiy Antonov, jurist at IRTSA Ukraine (International Agency for Assistance in Auxiliary Reproduction Technologies), who stresses how easy it is to find surrogate mothers on social networks, instant messaging services (Viber, Telegram), job search platforms, or even on advertising spaces on the underground.'

Take a closer look at those articles. They’re basically the same thing as the first India Times one. Look at article number two. Like the India Times article it’s obvious Islamic propaganda from Al Jezeera. Sharia law prohibits surrogacy.

I’m not a Muslim and will never be, but I’ll bet the guy, Kevin Ponniah, who wrote the BBC article is.

You can’t keep showing me articles from journalists blinded by their Islamic faith and call that evidence of the immorality of surrogacy.

I’ll hardly defer to sharia law on any moral grounds let alone women’s rights issues.

What makes you think that? From a quick Google tour, Mr. Pooniah is born and raised in Australia. There are obviously Muslims in Australia, but what exactly is it about a guy named "Kevin" that makes you think he's promulgating Shari'a law?

PP, I said that because I was trying to get a rise out of the anti surrogacy troll. If you read the whole article, it’s very neutral. I have no idea what Kevin’s background is, but I knew what I said would bother the evil troll who keeps badgering infertile women with her unwanted opinions. And yes, she can take her religion and shove it!

I’m not the PP but this is shocking and awful. You are engaging in disgusting anti-Muslim racism, especially at a time like this globally in the world, just to “get a rise” out of multiple people? What is wrong with you? You do understand that this kind of behavior really weakens your stance, not strengthens it? Anyone who can casually use racism as some sort of joke gotcha is in no position to try to shut down a discussion about very serious issues of exploitation and ethics. You are awful to do this. Just awful.

And you don’t think Sunni Sharia law plays any role in outlawing surrogacy throughout the world? Because it certainly does.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

if what happens? I asked this upthread and you still havent answered?

What is the line where its justifiable to impregnate women like cattle and buy their baby?

This is incredibly insulting towards women who choose to become surrogates.

When cattle are sentient, can make their own decisions about their bodies, and are fairly compensated for their labor, it will be a fair analogy. Until then, you’re babbling.

Your dogged refusal to allow these women any agency at all is pretty gross and paternalistic.

What is this? Who decides? Have you read the articles posted about this being borderline trafficking?

Those pearls of journalistic wisdom you are referring to is just one article by a muck journalist for the India Times who has been discredited for making up propaganda and lies many times.

https://www.opindia.com/2020/02/india-times-shweta-sengar-fake-news-propaganda/amp/

Don’t you think if you were hired to try to justify ending surrogacy in India, you’d make up lies about what was happening with surrogacy in Ukraine? I don’t believe a syllable of that article. It’s hardly a hard hitting article by a respected, trusted journalist.

India Times isn't good enough? You want more? It's not hard to google. Here's a BBC article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42845602

"We have seen examples where Ukrainian agencies have refused to pay the surrogate if she doesn't adhere to strict requirements, if she miscarries," says Mr Everingham. "There are some awful examples where agencies really treated surrogates dreadfully in Ukraine if things haven't worked out to the benefit of parents."

"The industry, Ms Bogomolets says, is not sufficiently regulated and this lack of oversight can put both surrogate mothers and the paying parents at risk."

And another:

https://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Areas/Ukraine/Surrogate-motherhood-and-exploitation-in-Ukraine-203929

"...many clinics (not registered or under a false name), foreign couples, intermediary agencies, or even improvised surrogate mothers do things under the table in order not to pay taxes, obviously without taking care of any consequences if something goes wrong."

' "Two-thirds of the surrogacy market in Ukraine is illegal", says Serhiy Antonov, jurist at IRTSA Ukraine (International Agency for Assistance in Auxiliary Reproduction Technologies), who stresses how easy it is to find surrogate mothers on social networks, instant messaging services (Viber, Telegram), job search platforms, or even on advertising spaces on the underground.'

Take a closer look at those articles. They’re basically the same thing as the first India Times one. Look at article number two. Like the India Times article it’s obvious Islamic propaganda from Al Jezeera. Sharia law prohibits surrogacy.

I’m not a Muslim and will never be, but I’ll bet the guy, Kevin Ponniah, who wrote the BBC article is.

You can’t keep showing me articles from journalists blinded by their Islamic faith and call that evidence of the immorality of surrogacy.

I’ll hardly defer to sharia law on any moral grounds let alone women’s rights issues.

What makes you think that? From a quick Google tour, Mr. Pooniah is born and raised in Australia. There are obviously Muslims in Australia, but what exactly is it about a guy named "Kevin" that makes you think he's promulgating Shari'a law?

PP, I said that because I was trying to get a rise out of the anti surrogacy troll. If you read the whole article, it’s very neutral. I have no idea what Kevin’s background is, but I knew what I said would bother the evil troll who keeps badgering infertile women with her unwanted opinions. And yes, she can take her religion and shove it!

I’m not the PP but this is shocking and awful. You are engaging in disgusting anti-Muslim racism, especially at a time like this globally in the world, just to “get a rise” out of multiple people? What is wrong with you? You do understand that this kind of behavior really weakens your stance, not strengthens it? Anyone who can casually use racism as some sort of joke gotcha is in no position to try to shut down a discussion about very serious issues of exploitation and ethics. You are awful to do this. Just awful.

+1

This is actually a racism twofer.

First, the idea that all brown people must be Muslim.

Second, the idea that a Muslim BBC journalist would not be able to objectively report on a well documented series of human rights abuses.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

No, not everyone who experiences infertility makes their problem other people’s problem as well.

Easy for you to talk when you’ve effortlessly popped out your kids.

Did you have a surrogate? Is that why youre so defensive? You feel guilty over paying a poor person to grow your child?

Yes, I had a surrogate. And no, I don’t feel guilty.

Uh huh. That’s why you’re so defensive and insecure in your choice.

I never had a surrogate and easily popped out kids. So, you can’t accuse me of feeling desperate or defensive about it. I support it wholeheartedly.

I think it’s a miracle of medical science and humanity that doctors can take a little egg, a tiny sperm and create an embryo in a Petri dish to then implant in a willing surrogate. It’s amazing that the surrogate’s body doesn’t reject the foreign dna and that a baby can grow.

I am delighted for the infertile women (and their husbands if they have them) who can now have the babies they dreamed about. I’m thrilled that gay men are no longer relegated to be uncles or doggie daddies and can have a family and be loved as a parent like everyone else.

I do not think paid surrogacy is immoral, appalling or bad in any way. I am sure that things can go wrong, but for me the good outweighs the potential bad.

To the rabid anti surrogacy posters, I have this to say: there is no argument you can make that will persuade me to change my views on the subject. My opinion isn’t relevant to you, I get it, but yours is unwarranted on an infertility board where people are seeking support in achieving the families THEY want. It’s not about you.

Can’t you all leave this board and get together and form some sort of private anti surrogacy one? You can email each other back and forth about the evils of surrogacy, and equate it to slavery until the cows come home.

But can’t you just get lost from this infertility support group? You’re insensitive and misguided to say the least.

Get lost!

You sound like the people who were rabidly defending international adoption about ten years ago even though by then it had been proven extensively and with enormous amounts of evidence that the practice was corrupt, exploitative, and in many instances literally a baby-stealing operation. We knew for years that the practice was immoral and unethical and yet it took many years for it to be as restrictive as it is now, and even now there are still problems. Why? Because of people like you who so favor wealthy people in the West that they’re willing to literally excuse stealing babies. And yes, people like you tried to shut down conversations on infertility boards when people started asking for referrals to adoption agencies in Guatemala or China or Ethiopia. I remember that too, these self-appointed defenders of the infertile who would rush in when people said that international adoption was unethical.

I will never understand people like you. I will never understand someone who elevates the desire of people of wealthy people in the west to have children so highly that any and all ethical issues are to be swept aside and discussion shut down.

In any event, even if you want to close your eyes and pretend the horrific abuses rampant in the surrogacy industry aren’t there, this conversation will come up anyhow for practical reasons related to OPs question: the practice is being increasingly shut down around the world because of those abuses. Therefore even if OP wants to close her eyes to the abuses, she will practically have to deal with them because her options are increasingly limited.

You are the definition of a TROLL! The OP asked for personal experiences with foreign surrogacy. She didn’t ask about your opinion on its ethics.

Did you have a surrogate? Were you a surrogate? If not, can’t you take your personal opinion and GET LOST!!!

So you are racist, call people who care about womens health trolls, and cant answer the OPs question either? Feel free to post your own personal experience exploiting poor women living in impoverished nations, I'm sure we're all eager to hear how much you paid. How much is human trafficking these days?