Surrogacy abroad

[Anonymous]

Save more money for a US surrogate. Don't exploit foreign women. These programs were shut down for good reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the OP is still reading, I'd ask her to look a little deeper.

So, "Georgia is out."

Why is Georgia out? What made the Government of Georgia take that step? Rather than just listing countries that are "out," it might make sense to really ask yourself why, if surrogacy is ethical and normal, it is increasingly being curtailed.

PP would like you to believe that "Sunni Sharia law" is the reason, but that explanation doesn't make any sense when you look at the countries we are discussing.

So what does make sense? If the human rights abuses in Georgia were bad enough for the government to outlaw the practice, shouldn't that give anyone pause?

This is a really thoughtful, balanced and kind response. I think it will be lost between the two sides, but I appreciate you putting it out there.

Thanks. Hopefully PP can take a beat to think through some of the implications here. A lot of folks on this thread are reacting from a place of defensiveness, because they don't want to hear that their own decision-making may have been harmful to someone with less power than them. But OP has the chance to just....not do that thing. She'll never had to feel defensive because she'll know that she looked into the harms/risks of this path and chose against it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because you know, its ok "if it happened to you"

Whatever that qualifier actually means, which no one has even tried to articulate. Because drawing a line where its ok to treat humans like cattle is abhorrent. But as long as you get your own DNA in a lil baby it's fine to ignore.

Oh yeah, you’re definitely DNA Dolly. You are a hideous troll and nothing anyone says penetrates your self-righteous frenzy.

Piss off, DNA Dolly. Take your ill-informed moralizing elsewhere.

I'm a troll because I dont think poor women should be trafficked so you can have a biological child? Because you refuse to adopt because so and sos aunties neighbor had a rough go with her adopted child?

Or are you the avocado poster trying to compare purchasing a human being to growing... fruit?

No, I am neither OP, nor either of those posters.

You’re a troll because you are being revoltingly and deliberately cruel to women who long for a biologically-connected child. You’re also acting like adoption is an easily available choice, free of ethical issues. Neither of those is true.

Sneering at OP and other women who turn to surrogacy after many losses is really gross. Sure, we get it, your opinion is that surrogacy is terrible. You can advocate for that position while still being a human being and allowing that other peoples’ losses and pain are real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the OP is still reading, I'd ask her to look a little deeper.

So, "Georgia is out."

Why is Georgia out? What made the Government of Georgia take that step? Rather than just listing countries that are "out," it might make sense to really ask yourself why, if surrogacy is ethical and normal, it is increasingly being curtailed.

PP would like you to believe that "Sunni Sharia law" is the reason, but that explanation doesn't make any sense when you look at the countries we are discussing.

So what does make sense? If the human rights abuses in Georgia were bad enough for the government to outlaw the practice, shouldn't that give anyone pause?

This is a really thoughtful, balanced and kind response. I think it will be lost between the two sides, but I appreciate you putting it out there.

Thanks. Hopefully PP can take a beat to think through some of the implications here. A lot of folks on this thread are reacting from a place of defensiveness, because they don't want to hear that their own decision-making may have been harmful to someone with less power than them. But OP has the chance to just....not do that thing. She'll never had to feel defensive because she'll know that she looked into the harms/risks of this path and chose against it.

Or she can look for more balanced input on a different site/thread that isn’t overrun by a few strongly opinionated posters with a mission and a lot of time on their hands.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because you know, its ok "if it happened to you"

Whatever that qualifier actually means, which no one has even tried to articulate. Because drawing a line where its ok to treat humans like cattle is abhorrent. But as long as you get your own DNA in a lil baby it's fine to ignore.

Oh yeah, you’re definitely DNA Dolly. You are a hideous troll and nothing anyone says penetrates your self-righteous frenzy.

Piss off, DNA Dolly. Take your ill-informed moralizing elsewhere.

I'm a troll because I dont think poor women should be trafficked so you can have a biological child? Because you refuse to adopt because so and sos aunties neighbor had a rough go with her adopted child?

Or are you the avocado poster trying to compare purchasing a human being to growing... fruit?

No, I am neither OP, nor either of those posters.

You’re a troll because you are being revoltingly and deliberately cruel to women who long for a biologically-connected child. You’re also acting like adoption is an easily available choice, free of ethical issues. Neither of those is true.

Sneering at OP and other women who turn to surrogacy after many losses is really gross. Sure, we get it, your opinion is that surrogacy is terrible. You can advocate for that position while still being a human being and allowing that other peoples’ losses and pain are real.

And I do. I do feel awful that families with infertility suffer. But I don't think it's appropriate to inflict suffering on other poor women lacking resources just to appease that. Two wrongs dont make a right, no matter how much you paid for your baby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because you know, its ok "if it happened to you"

Whatever that qualifier actually means, which no one has even tried to articulate. Because drawing a line where its ok to treat humans like cattle is abhorrent. But as long as you get your own DNA in a lil baby it's fine to ignore.

Oh yeah, you’re definitely DNA Dolly. You are a hideous troll and nothing anyone says penetrates your self-righteous frenzy.

Piss off, DNA Dolly. Take your ill-informed moralizing elsewhere.

I'm a troll because I dont think poor women should be trafficked so you can have a biological child? Because you refuse to adopt because so and sos aunties neighbor had a rough go with her adopted child?

Or are you the avocado poster trying to compare purchasing a human being to growing... fruit?

No, I am neither OP, nor either of those posters.

You’re a troll because you are being revoltingly and deliberately cruel to women who long for a biologically-connected child. You’re also acting like adoption is an easily available choice, free of ethical issues. Neither of those is true.

Sneering at OP and other women who turn to surrogacy after many losses is really gross. Sure, we get it, your opinion is that surrogacy is terrible. You can advocate for that position while still being a human being and allowing that other peoples’ losses and pain are real.

And I do. I do feel awful that families with infertility suffer. But I don't think it's appropriate to inflict suffering on other poor women lacking resources just to appease that. Two wrongs dont make a right, no matter how much you paid for your baby.

This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because you know, its ok "if it happened to you"

Whatever that qualifier actually means, which no one has even tried to articulate. Because drawing a line where its ok to treat humans like cattle is abhorrent. But as long as you get your own DNA in a lil baby it's fine to ignore.

Oh yeah, you’re definitely DNA Dolly. You are a hideous troll and nothing anyone says penetrates your self-righteous frenzy.

Piss off, DNA Dolly. Take your ill-informed moralizing elsewhere.

I'm a troll because I dont think poor women should be trafficked so you can have a biological child? Because you refuse to adopt because so and sos aunties neighbor had a rough go with her adopted child?

Or are you the avocado poster trying to compare purchasing a human being to growing... fruit?

No, I am neither OP, nor either of those posters.

You’re a troll because you are being revoltingly and deliberately cruel to women who long for a biologically-connected child. You’re also acting like adoption is an easily available choice, free of ethical issues. Neither of those is true.

Sneering at OP and other women who turn to surrogacy after many losses is really gross. Sure, we get it, your opinion is that surrogacy is terrible. You can advocate for that position while still being a human being and allowing that other peoples’ losses and pain are real.

And I do. I do feel awful that families with infertility suffer. But I don't think it's appropriate to inflict suffering on other poor women lacking resources just to appease that. Two wrongs dont make a right, no matter how much you paid for your baby.

This.

+1

[Anonymous]

Even if you are suffering, and there is something you very much want, it doesn't make it okay to take advantage of others in fulfilling your own dreams. No one wants to exploit others on purpose, so it's tempting to put blinders on and get defensive about the global surrogacy industry. What's done is done, but we have a moral responsibility going forward. And that is the direction most countries are moving.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think anyone who is opposed to international surrogacy doesn’t have deep sympathy for women struggling with infertility. It’s both inaccurate and unfair to jump to that conclusion. But profound sympathy for people going through infertility does not erase the well-documented human rights violations that are at issue here. It’s unreasonable to take the position that the pain of infertility overrides the pain of the abuse and exploitation that is going on globally in this industry. That’s a privileged and unfair position to take. And, it’s not one that’s recognized globally. Countries around the world are limiting the practice or banning it specifically because of the human rights abuses.

One of the issues that parents who use surrogates are going to have to face some day is what happens when the resulting children learn about the circumstances of their births in a world where by the time they are able to understand the issues, surrogacy will be widely considered a form of human trafficking globally, as that seems to be where this is moving. That will require an unflinching look at the ethical issues involved, and so pretending these issues don’t exist doesn’t help parents who use surrogates in the long term. You can close your eyes to the ethical issues if you want, but you cannot control what your children decide to think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

No, not everyone who experiences infertility makes their problem other people’s problem as well.

Easy for you to talk when you’ve effortlessly popped out your kids.

Did you have a surrogate? Is that why youre so defensive? You feel guilty over paying a poor person to grow your child?

Yes, I had a surrogate. And no, I don’t feel guilty.

Uh huh. That’s why you’re so defensive and insecure in your choice.

I never had a surrogate and easily popped out kids. So, you can’t accuse me of feeling desperate or defensive about it. I support it wholeheartedly.

I think it’s a miracle of medical science and humanity that doctors can take a little egg, a tiny sperm and create an embryo in a Petri dish to then implant in a willing surrogate. It’s amazing that the surrogate’s body doesn’t reject the foreign dna and that a baby can grow.

I am delighted for the infertile women (and their husbands if they have them) who can now have the babies they dreamed about. I’m thrilled that gay men are no longer relegated to be uncles or doggie daddies and can have a family and be loved as a parent like everyone else.

I do not think paid surrogacy is immoral, appalling or bad in any way. I am sure that things can go wrong, but for me the good outweighs the potential bad.

To the rabid anti surrogacy posters, I have this to say: there is no argument you can make that will persuade me to change my views on the subject. My opinion isn’t relevant to you, I get it, but yours is unwarranted on an infertility board where people are seeking support in achieving the families THEY want. It’s not about you.

Can’t you all leave this board and get together and form some sort of private anti surrogacy one? You can email each other back and forth about the evils of surrogacy, and equate it to slavery until the cows come home.

But can’t you just get lost from this infertility support group? You’re insensitive and misguided to say the least.

Get lost!

Yes science is great! Technology is awesome. I love that we can grow organs with stem cells. Maybe soon we will be able to grow children the same way, and wont need to rely on taking advantage of impoverished women from poor countries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

if what happens? I asked this upthread and you still havent answered?

What is the line where its justifiable to impregnate women like cattle and buy their baby?

This is incredibly insulting towards women who choose to become surrogates.

When cattle are sentient, can make their own decisions about their bodies, and are fairly compensated for their labor, it will be a fair analogy. Until then, you’re babbling.

Your dogged refusal to allow these women any agency at all is pretty gross and paternalistic.

What is this? Who decides? Have you read the articles posted about this being borderline trafficking?

Those pearls of journalistic wisdom you are referring to is just one article by a muck journalist for the India Times who has been discredited for making up propaganda and lies many times.

https://www.opindia.com/2020/02/india-times-shweta-sengar-fake-news-propaganda/amp/

Don’t you think if you were hired to try to justify ending surrogacy in India, you’d make up lies about what was happening with surrogacy in Ukraine? I don’t believe a syllable of that article. It’s hardly a hard hitting article by a respected, trusted journalist.

India Times isn't good enough? You want more? It's not hard to google. Here's a BBC article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42845602

"We have seen examples where Ukrainian agencies have refused to pay the surrogate if she doesn't adhere to strict requirements, if she miscarries," says Mr Everingham. "There are some awful examples where agencies really treated surrogates dreadfully in Ukraine if things haven't worked out to the benefit of parents."

"The industry, Ms Bogomolets says, is not sufficiently regulated and this lack of oversight can put both surrogate mothers and the paying parents at risk."

And another:

https://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Areas/Ukraine/Surrogate-motherhood-and-exploitation-in-Ukraine-203929

"...many clinics (not registered or under a false name), foreign couples, intermediary agencies, or even improvised surrogate mothers do things under the table in order not to pay taxes, obviously without taking care of any consequences if something goes wrong."

' "Two-thirds of the surrogacy market in Ukraine is illegal", says Serhiy Antonov, jurist at IRTSA Ukraine (International Agency for Assistance in Auxiliary Reproduction Technologies), who stresses how easy it is to find surrogate mothers on social networks, instant messaging services (Viber, Telegram), job search platforms, or even on advertising spaces on the underground.'

Take a closer look at those articles. They’re basically the same thing as the first India Times one. Look at article number two. Like the India Times article it’s obvious Islamic propaganda from Al Jezeera. Sharia law prohibits surrogacy.

I’m not a Muslim and will never be, but I’ll bet the guy, Kevin Ponniah, who wrote the BBC article is.

You can’t keep showing me articles from journalists blinded by their Islamic faith and call that evidence of the immorality of surrogacy.

I’ll hardly defer to sharia law on any moral grounds let alone women’s rights issues.

What makes you think that? From a quick Google tour, Mr. Pooniah is born and raised in Australia. There are obviously Muslims in Australia, but what exactly is it about a guy named "Kevin" that makes you think he's promulgating Shari'a law?

PP, I said that because I was trying to get a rise out of the anti surrogacy troll. If you read the whole article, it’s very neutral. I have no idea what Kevin’s background is, but I knew what I said would bother the evil troll who keeps badgering infertile women with her unwanted opinions. And yes, she can take her religion and shove it!

I'm the PP you were referring to. I've never mentioned my religion on this thread, and I'm not Muslim. But I did mention my race, which you clearly latched onto in an effort to silence and intimidate me. As a non-Muslim Indian raised in the US, I've been on the receiving end of acts of violence and intimidation by people like you, who assume that any brown person speaking a foreign language is de facto Muslim, and therefore a threat to their way of life. You still haven't made any compelling arguments in favor of surrogacy. Your racism and bigotry are doing more to combat the corrupt international surrogacy industry than anyone else on this thread. So much so, I had assumed you were actually an anti-surrogacy troll trying to play the part of the racist. Thank you for that!

Oh, and Praise Allah /s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

No, not everyone who experiences infertility makes their problem other people’s problem as well.

Easy for you to talk when you’ve effortlessly popped out your kids.

Did you have a surrogate? Is that why youre so defensive? You feel guilty over paying a poor person to grow your child?

Yes, I had a surrogate. And no, I don’t feel guilty.

Uh huh. That’s why you’re so defensive and insecure in your choice.

I never had a surrogate and easily popped out kids. So, you can’t accuse me of feeling desperate or defensive about it. I support it wholeheartedly.

I think it’s a miracle of medical science and humanity that doctors can take a little egg, a tiny sperm and create an embryo in a Petri dish to then implant in a willing surrogate. It’s amazing that the surrogate’s body doesn’t reject the foreign dna and that a baby can grow.

I am delighted for the infertile women (and their husbands if they have them) who can now have the babies they dreamed about. I’m thrilled that gay men are no longer relegated to be uncles or doggie daddies and can have a family and be loved as a parent like everyone else.

I do not think paid surrogacy is immoral, appalling or bad in any way. I am sure that things can go wrong, but for me the good outweighs the potential bad.

To the rabid anti surrogacy posters, I have this to say: there is no argument you can make that will persuade me to change my views on the subject. My opinion isn’t relevant to you, I get it, but yours is unwarranted on an infertility board where people are seeking support in achieving the families THEY want. It’s not about you.

Can’t you all leave this board and get together and form some sort of private anti surrogacy one? You can email each other back and forth about the evils of surrogacy, and equate it to slavery until the cows come home.

But can’t you just get lost from this infertility support group? You’re insensitive and misguided to say the least.

Get lost!

Ha! You open your post boasting about how you "easily popped out kids" like a goddamn brood mare, and then have the breathtaking audacity to accuse people against surrogacy of being insensitive? Lady, take a good hard look at yourself. You lack all self-awareness and are a raging hypocrite. Why are YOU in this thread if you're ceaselessly filling your womb with babies? Don't you have some asses to wipe? Isn't it time for another insemination?

You are a vile, ugly, evil creature inside and out.

DP. I think the pro-surrogacy racist troll and nasty anti-surrogacy troll above are in fact the same poster. Somebody thinks this is a funny topic, and is using this infertility thread to create drama.

[Anonymous]

I think of it as voluntarily donating a kidney for money. It shouldn't be illegal, but it takes a lot of regulation not to exploit people

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think anyone who is opposed to international surrogacy doesn’t have deep sympathy for women struggling with infertility. It’s both inaccurate and unfair to jump to that conclusion. But profound sympathy for people going through infertility does not erase the well-documented human rights violations that are at issue here. It’s unreasonable to take the position that the pain of infertility overrides the pain of the abuse and exploitation that is going on globally in this industry. That’s a privileged and unfair position to take. And, it’s not one that’s recognized globally. Countries around the world are limiting the practice or banning it specifically because of the human rights abuses.

One of the issues that parents who use surrogates are going to have to face some day is what happens when the resulting children learn about the circumstances of their births in a world where by the time they are able to understand the issues, surrogacy will be widely considered a form of human trafficking globally, as that seems to be where this is moving. That will require an unflinching look at the ethical issues involved, and so pretending these issues don’t exist doesn’t help parents who use surrogates in the long term. You can close your eyes to the ethical issues if you want, but you cannot control what your children decide to think.

This is thoughtful and well-written. Thank you. In some ways I think this mirrors the discourse around international adoption, and we've seen a lot of international and transracial adoptees come forward over the past two decades to talk about their experiences. It is bewildering and frustrating for some adoptive parents, while others have come to realize that their kids were adopted under dubious or even criminal circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes in this life you just don't get what you want. I understand that for people experiencing infertility, the lack of a child is like a gaping chest wound, but that doesn't make it right to exploit others for your personal benefit. Having a child is not actually a human right.

You would be the first to change your tune if it happens to you.

No, not everyone who experiences infertility makes their problem other people’s problem as well.

Easy for you to talk when you’ve effortlessly popped out your kids.

Did you have a surrogate? Is that why youre so defensive? You feel guilty over paying a poor person to grow your child?

Yes, I had a surrogate. And no, I don’t feel guilty.

Uh huh. That’s why you’re so defensive and insecure in your choice.

Why would I be defensive and insecure? My wonderful GC is a college graduate, happily married with 4 kids of her own in a mid-Western town and was also GC for another family. We have always maintained a close bond with her and her family. Continue spewing your bile if you choose to.

I don't know why you're defensive and insecure, but you are. It oozes out of every post you write.

That’s you projecting your own inadequacies.

Nah. If you were secure, you’d be open to discussing the downsides of surrogacy. But you want to shut down any such discussion—surrogacy is only a positive! Keep telling yourself that, you deludinoid.

You’re ranting and raving like a loon. Why is that?