Parents please believe your child’s teacher

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, no, schools don't have a "zero tolerance" policy for violence. Ok, maybe where you are. Here, we get to hear about how nothing ever ever happens to disruptive violent kids. They just get sent back to class.

I had a student this year that was removed for 10 minutes to fill out a “reflection sheet” after hitting another child. On the third physical instance in a day he would be sent home. He was always allowed to return the next day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, no, schools don't have a "zero tolerance" policy for violence. Ok, maybe where you are. Here, we get to hear about how nothing ever ever happens to disruptive violent kids. They just get sent back to class.

I had a student this year that was removed for 10 minutes to fill out a “reflection sheet” after hitting another child. On the third physical instance in a day he would be sent home. He was always allowed to return the next day.

did he improve over the year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, no, schools don't have a "zero tolerance" policy for violence. Ok, maybe where you are. Here, we get to hear about how nothing ever ever happens to disruptive violent kids. They just get sent back to class.

I had a student this year that was removed for 10 minutes to fill out a “reflection sheet” after hitting another child. On the third physical instance in a day he would be sent home. He was always allowed to return the next day.

And that is why I taught my child to physically fight, and am not worried about the repercussions of my kid fighting back if he is bullied.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, no, schools don't have a "zero tolerance" policy for violence. Ok, maybe where you are. Here, we get to hear about how nothing ever ever happens to disruptive violent kids. They just get sent back to class.

I had a student this year that was removed for 10 minutes to fill out a “reflection sheet” after hitting another child. On the third physical instance in a day he would be sent home. He was always allowed to return the next day.

did he improve over the year?

No, he escalated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, glad you're back.

You still haven't responded to criticism of this part of your OP:

And your child on the spectrum is not only “a loner genius”, they’re autistic. And your child who is getting picked on is not always “an innocent victim” they usually need to learn how to NOT be a victim.

Do you really not see how statement like this are essentially designed to make parents angry and defensive? You are not qualified to diagnose a child with autism, and if you are speaking like this to parents with autistic children, do you really not understand that they are own their own difficult journey that you simply do not understand? And your phrasing here about kids who get picked on is absolutely unacceptable from a teacher. Absolutely, 100%, not acceptable. Parents with kids who are being picked on and bullied are ALWAYS working with their kids to figure out how to keep themselves from being a target. Do you have kids? Do you not understand how heartbreaking it is to have send your kid to school where another kid is making fun of them or tormenting them? If there was a magic thing you could tell your kid to keep it from happening, you would.

It's just so condescending. If a teacher said this to me about my kid who was being tormented, not only would I not "believe her", I'd ask that my kid be removed from her class. When I child is being consistently picked on in your classroom, the answer is for the adult in the room to intervene, and work with the kids to address these issues. I get that you don't have perfect control, but you have more than I do in that moment, and "sorry kiddo but you've got to stop making yourself a victim here" is NOT going to cut it. Address the problem.

Fortunately I've never had a teacher pull this with me -- we've always had good relationships built on trust and mutual respect. But what you wrote in your OP was not trusting or respectful. I think if you have enough poor relationships with parents to write something like this, the problem might be you.

Well folks I apologize for triggering so many parents with this post. Please know that I would never in a million years be so blunt in an actual conversation with a parent of a struggling student. I DO understand how heartbreaking it is, having been on the receiving end of such information twice. Please know, however, that there are many many parents out there who would rather deny that a problem exists and verbally attack the teacher for bringing it up in the most respectful, compassionate way. That was the audience for this post - parents who will leave their child, the teacher and sometimes the entire affected class hanging because they cannot believe that their child might need extra support. It is completely demoralizing for all involved. So, with those experiences under my belt along with the multiple chastisements posted in this thread from parents who DO want to support their struggling children, I will think twice about having these conversations in the future. You have cut me down to size, put me in my place, and schooled the teacher.

OP,
Thank you for your attempt here. I’m a teacher, but for the moment I’m going to speak from the perspective of a parent. I had a teacher who sat me down and gave me some raw, upsetting information about my own child. No other teacher had done that. I was defensive at first. I wanted to defend my child, her upbringing, and all I had already done to try to prepare her for school. I took the teacher’s comments as a criticism and, initially, I was mad at the teacher for exposing something I didn’t want to accept or deal with. Two years later, I have nothing but appreciation for that teacher. She took the time to really learn about my child and she cared enough to put herself in that uncomfortable position. I can’t imagine she relished having that conversation with me. What she said was a spark and I am now grateful for her insights.

I know you were speaking from experience and you weren’t speaking to ALL parents. I think the reason you got so much heat in response is because (A) we are all very defensive about our own children and (B) this is DCUM and our intentions/tone don’t always translate the way we want them to.

OP here - thank you, fellow teacher and fellow parent. I concur with all you said and how well you said it. My old pony, Trigger, is back in his stall and I will give myself a bit more time between a hard day and posting anything on a public forum. Your balanced assessment of WHY these conversations can be so difficult is spot on.

Honestly as a parent I thought your post was fine and I was surprised at all the comments. But I have mainly had positive interactions with teachers around social issues that have come up for my kid. Also, I'm the one who has brought them up.

One question I have though is this: "And your child who is getting picked on is not always “an innocent victim” they usually need to learn how to NOT be a victim" - this seems suspect to me. How do you teach this? At home it's so easy to say do x do y when so and so bothers you. I don't think it helps. This is an age old problem and I don't really see how we parents can actually help our victim kids. Seems like only the teacher can devise a solution in the moment. And unless it's super obvious bullying, they usually don't do anything in my experience.

The only way to teach someone to not be a victim in this context is to teach them to stand up for themselves, fight back and have self-respect. I don't see how schools can teach that or how parents can do that without information.

"Fight back" how? Be specific. Surely you're not suggesting physical fighting?

If they are being physically assaulted then yes. It's called self-defense and self-respect. What would you suggest as a response to physical assault? Remember that we are talking about kids that are being bullied. Should they accept it? If not, what should they do?

Good luck with that. Schools have zero tolerance policies for any kind of physical violence, even if it is self defense. The bullied child who hits back will end up getting detention or be suspended.

Yeah the PP sounds like a parent of a bully- they want the bullies kids to fight back to deflect from their own kid. They probably tell their kid that anyone who doesn’t fight back is “weak” and deserves to be bullied too.

Hahahahaha, you couldn't be further from the mark. That was just a particularly easy example to understand on the range of things kids need to be taught to not be a victim. There are things that schools cannot teach kids to do.

DP- ok, how specifically are you teaching your kids not to be a victim, without shaming them if, despite their best efforts, they are still bullied?

It's trying to teach them self-reapect. They may fail but at least they'll try and learn that standing up for what's right is a virtue. That being physically assaulted is never something they have to accept. There is no shame in defending oneself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, no, schools don't have a "zero tolerance" policy for violence. Ok, maybe where you are. Here, we get to hear about how nothing ever ever happens to disruptive violent kids. They just get sent back to class.

I had a student this year that was removed for 10 minutes to fill out a “reflection sheet” after hitting another child. On the third physical instance in a day he would be sent home. He was always allowed to return the next day.

did he improve over the year?

DP but why would he? Hitting another kid got him staff attention, an opportunity to escape class and avoid doing work, and eventually, a chance to go home early. I'd bet any amount of money his parents let him spend those afternoons on his phone or watching TV. Why on earth would the child stop the behavior?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, no, schools don't have a "zero tolerance" policy for violence. Ok, maybe where you are. Here, we get to hear about how nothing ever ever happens to disruptive violent kids. They just get sent back to class.

I had a student this year that was removed for 10 minutes to fill out a “reflection sheet” after hitting another child. On the third physical instance in a day he would be sent home. He was always allowed to return the next day.

did he improve over the year?

DP but why would he? Hitting another kid got him staff attention, an opportunity to escape class and avoid doing work, and eventually, a chance to go home early. I'd bet any amount of money his parents let him spend those afternoons on his phone or watching TV. Why on earth would the child stop the behavior?

then this is a failure of the school to implement a BIP that works. there’s nothing the parents can do if behavior is getting reinforced at school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, glad you're back.

You still haven't responded to criticism of this part of your OP:

And your child on the spectrum is not only “a loner genius”, they’re autistic. And your child who is getting picked on is not always “an innocent victim” they usually need to learn how to NOT be a victim.

Do you really not see how statement like this are essentially designed to make parents angry and defensive? You are not qualified to diagnose a child with autism, and if you are speaking like this to parents with autistic children, do you really not understand that they are own their own difficult journey that you simply do not understand? And your phrasing here about kids who get picked on is absolutely unacceptable from a teacher. Absolutely, 100%, not acceptable. Parents with kids who are being picked on and bullied are ALWAYS working with their kids to figure out how to keep themselves from being a target. Do you have kids? Do you not understand how heartbreaking it is to have send your kid to school where another kid is making fun of them or tormenting them? If there was a magic thing you could tell your kid to keep it from happening, you would.

It's just so condescending. If a teacher said this to me about my kid who was being tormented, not only would I not "believe her", I'd ask that my kid be removed from her class. When I child is being consistently picked on in your classroom, the answer is for the adult in the room to intervene, and work with the kids to address these issues. I get that you don't have perfect control, but you have more than I do in that moment, and "sorry kiddo but you've got to stop making yourself a victim here" is NOT going to cut it. Address the problem.

Fortunately I've never had a teacher pull this with me -- we've always had good relationships built on trust and mutual respect. But what you wrote in your OP was not trusting or respectful. I think if you have enough poor relationships with parents to write something like this, the problem might be you.

Well folks I apologize for triggering so many parents with this post. Please know that I would never in a million years be so blunt in an actual conversation with a parent of a struggling student. I DO understand how heartbreaking it is, having been on the receiving end of such information twice. Please know, however, that there are many many parents out there who would rather deny that a problem exists and verbally attack the teacher for bringing it up in the most respectful, compassionate way. That was the audience for this post - parents who will leave their child, the teacher and sometimes the entire affected class hanging because they cannot believe that their child might need extra support. It is completely demoralizing for all involved. So, with those experiences under my belt along with the multiple chastisements posted in this thread from parents who DO want to support their struggling children, I will think twice about having these conversations in the future. You have cut me down to size, put me in my place, and schooled the teacher.

OP,
Thank you for your attempt here. I’m a teacher, but for the moment I’m going to speak from the perspective of a parent. I had a teacher who sat me down and gave me some raw, upsetting information about my own child. No other teacher had done that. I was defensive at first. I wanted to defend my child, her upbringing, and all I had already done to try to prepare her for school. I took the teacher’s comments as a criticism and, initially, I was mad at the teacher for exposing something I didn’t want to accept or deal with. Two years later, I have nothing but appreciation for that teacher. She took the time to really learn about my child and she cared enough to put herself in that uncomfortable position. I can’t imagine she relished having that conversation with me. What she said was a spark and I am now grateful for her insights.

I know you were speaking from experience and you weren’t speaking to ALL parents. I think the reason you got so much heat in response is because (A) we are all very defensive about our own children and (B) this is DCUM and our intentions/tone don’t always translate the way we want them to.

OP here - thank you, fellow teacher and fellow parent. I concur with all you said and how well you said it. My old pony, Trigger, is back in his stall and I will give myself a bit more time between a hard day and posting anything on a public forum. Your balanced assessment of WHY these conversations can be so difficult is spot on.

Honestly as a parent I thought your post was fine and I was surprised at all the comments. But I have mainly had positive interactions with teachers around social issues that have come up for my kid. Also, I'm the one who has brought them up.

One question I have though is this: "And your child who is getting picked on is not always “an innocent victim” they usually need to learn how to NOT be a victim" - this seems suspect to me. How do you teach this? At home it's so easy to say do x do y when so and so bothers you. I don't think it helps. This is an age old problem and I don't really see how we parents can actually help our victim kids. Seems like only the teacher can devise a solution in the moment. And unless it's super obvious bullying, they usually don't do anything in my experience.

The only way to teach someone to not be a victim in this context is to teach them to stand up for themselves, fight back and have self-respect. I don't see how schools can teach that or how parents can do that without information.

"Fight back" how? Be specific. Surely you're not suggesting physical fighting?

If they are being physically assaulted then yes. It's called self-defense and self-respect. What would you suggest as a response to physical assault? Remember that we are talking about kids that are being bullied. Should they accept it? If not, what should they do?

Good luck with that. Schools have zero tolerance policies for any kind of physical violence, even if it is self defense. The bullied child who hits back will end up getting detention or be suspended.

That's the point. Only a parent can teach that. The school is constrained. Teaching a kid to turtle, run away, or accept the bullying does not help them to not become a permanent victim. There are things school centered supports are good at. Protecting oneself against bullies is not one of them.

This is such a catch-22 and perfectly illustrates why the attitude OP expressed "you're kid need to learn how not to be a victim" is a problem.

First off, I don't know any parent who would tell their kid to "accept the bullying." If that did happen, I would actually assume that the parent in question had a serious history with trauma and abuse and would try to hook that family up with the school's family supports because that's a trauma response.

Second, if a teacher or school is not actively working on not just addressing incidents of bullying behavior, but also working on socio-emotional skills and building a culture of support and kindness, it actually does not matter what you tell your kid in terms of avoiding bullying. This is 100% the purview of educators. Sure, some of the kids doing the bullying are learning it at home and those families are not doing what they can to stop it. That happens. But if bullying is happening beyond isolated incidents with a few kids, it's a reflection on the administration and individual teachers who are not doing what needs to be done to stop this behavior. Bullying is a cultural/environmental issue as much as anything.

It's good for kids to learn strategies to avoid becoming a target of a bully or to diffuse bullying situations. But those skills can take years to learn and are not always effective. Sometimes those skills are actually bad things to teach kids because what you are actually teaching them is how to assimilate or mask aspects of themselves that might provoke bullying. Kids who learn to do that can wind up with mental health issues later in life because they learned to conceal whatever it is that makes them different.

Stopping bullying is never the responsibility of the victims, and it's definitely not the responsibility of the victim's parents. I advise my kids on ways to deal with bullies, but what I say only goes so far. The teacher and the school need to be paying attention, intervening where necessary, and doing class-wide or school-wide education to prevent it from happening in the future. I can't do any of that.

+1

and honestly I also tell my kids "sometimes the bullies win."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, no, schools don't have a "zero tolerance" policy for violence. Ok, maybe where you are. Here, we get to hear about how nothing ever ever happens to disruptive violent kids. They just get sent back to class.

I had a student this year that was removed for 10 minutes to fill out a “reflection sheet” after hitting another child. On the third physical instance in a day he would be sent home. He was always allowed to return the next day.

did he improve over the year?

DP but why would he? Hitting another kid got him staff attention, an opportunity to escape class and avoid doing work, and eventually, a chance to go home early. I'd bet any amount of money his parents let him spend those afternoons on his phone or watching TV. Why on earth would the child stop the behavior?

then this is a failure of the school to implement a BIP that works. there’s nothing the parents can do if behavior is getting reinforced at school.

How do you know the student had a BIP? Some parents won't sign off on that. It sucks but there's very little the school can effectively do if the behavior gets reinforced at home. Hitting another child should mean you don't get to spend the afternoon chilling on the couch with your favorite things, regardless of whether or not you get sent home early. It's also the school's prerogative to look out for the other students. Removing the child who is hitting allows the other kids to 1. not get hit and 2. not have their class time disrupted every time the child hits.

[Anonymous]

Warning--long soapbox response here:
As a developmental psychologist, I regularly engage with teachers. I take their insights seriously and learn a lot from their experiences. I agree with OP that a parent is wise to listen to a teacher's perspective with an open mind.

But teachers are human and so, like us all, have formed biases. Given the number of children they deal with at the same time, teachers also may too quickly mentally label a child. They might tend to trust their teacher intuition rather than appropriately also question it. We all have biased beliefs about what normal behavior and social interaction should look like. Confirmation bias is real and I encounter many teachers who are overconfident in their perceptions of a child. They tend to see only the things that align with their perception, and don't as easily see the impact of context on the child's thinking/behavior. They see that most children adjust and this child is not so assume something must be wrong with the child. But the span of normal human behavior is really wide and some teachers are just not that accepting or flexible about normal variations in behavior. Or they might not be aware of how the context and their expectations for behavior may not be well-aligned with some normal human variations in need for activity, for social interactions, for time alone, for sensory stimulation etc. A kid who is within the normal spectrum may have wildly context-specific maladaptive, aggressive behavior. Teachers can have a hard time seeing how the context they create shapes peer interactions also. They can perceive as "flaws" or issues in the child things that are misalignments between the child and context that the teacher has some power to shape in fairly simple ways. This doesn't mean they are a bad teacher, it just kind of comes with the territory--they have a lot of kids to keep track of and they need them to act relatively in line with each other to keep the classroom going as they are expected to. Also people who become teachers are often people who thrived in a school environment and don't on a gut level perceive how the demands it often creates (lots of sensory stimulation, lots of social interaction, minimal physical activity) might be at odds with a child's sensory system or temperament.

Diagnosis is a lot more complex than our gut reactions or initial screeners. Two children can present almost identically-- be having really problematic behaviors such as hitting others, major meltdowns etc. and one just needs to be able to freely go to a quiet, calm reading corner as soon they feel frustration rising and the other needs medication and years of interventions.

I have seen many seemingly "classic cases" of a developmental disability that turned out to be an combination of other factors. Personally, I wish classroom environments assumed it's normal to have traits associated with the most common disabilities and that things like being able to move regularly, control sensory inputs (e.g. through headphones, tinted glasses, some quiet less decorated spaces) to retreat from interaction for awhile, to fidget etc. were built in without disrupting the learning process. We'd have less disruptions, spend less on special education and be able to direct resources to those who really need them.

So I agree parents should listen to teacher's perceptions because they see their kid in the context of many more children. But I'd also encourage teachers to listen to parents, and be more research-minded about their intuitions. If they see a child who is interacting oddly or who acts out, focus more on the contextual triggers than on the kid at first. When does this happen, under what conditions and are there tweaks that prevent it? When does a child NOT act out, get along with peers well? If you do this regularly you'll gradually evolve to a classroom that is more inclusive of the full range of normal behavior--experience fewer kids who are triggered by contextual factors-- and train your intuition better to see those who need more intensive interventions.

Ok, getting off my soapbox.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Warning--long soapbox response here:
As a developmental psychologist, I regularly engage with teachers. I take their insights seriously and learn a lot from their experiences. I agree with OP that a parent is wise to listen to a teacher's perspective with an open mind.

But teachers are human and so, like us all, have formed biases. Given the number of children they deal with at the same time, teachers also may too quickly mentally label a child. They might tend to trust their teacher intuition rather than appropriately also question it. We all have biased beliefs about what normal behavior and social interaction should look like. Confirmation bias is real and I encounter many teachers who are overconfident in their perceptions of a child. They tend to see only the things that align with their perception, and don't as easily see the impact of context on the child's thinking/behavior. They see that most children adjust and this child is not so assume something must be wrong with the child. But the span of normal human behavior is really wide and some teachers are just not that accepting or flexible about normal variations in behavior. Or they might not be aware of how the context and their expectations for behavior may not be well-aligned with some normal human variations in need for activity, for social interactions, for time alone, for sensory stimulation etc. A kid who is within the normal spectrum may have wildly context-specific maladaptive, aggressive behavior. Teachers can have a hard time seeing how the context they create shapes peer interactions also. They can perceive as "flaws" or issues in the child things that are misalignments between the child and context that the teacher has some power to shape in fairly simple ways. This doesn't mean they are a bad teacher, it just kind of comes with the territory--they have a lot of kids to keep track of and they need them to act relatively in line with each other to keep the classroom going as they are expected to. Also people who become teachers are often people who thrived in a school environment and don't on a gut level perceive how the demands it often creates (lots of sensory stimulation, lots of social interaction, minimal physical activity) might be at odds with a child's sensory system or temperament.

Diagnosis is a lot more complex than our gut reactions or initial screeners. Two children can present almost identically-- be having really problematic behaviors such as hitting others, major meltdowns etc. and one just needs to be able to freely go to a quiet, calm reading corner as soon they feel frustration rising and the other needs medication and years of interventions.

I have seen many seemingly "classic cases" of a developmental disability that turned out to be an combination of other factors. Personally, I wish classroom environments assumed it's normal to have traits associated with the most common disabilities and that things like being able to move regularly, control sensory inputs (e.g. through headphones, tinted glasses, some quiet less decorated spaces) to retreat from interaction for awhile, to fidget etc. were built in without disrupting the learning process. We'd have less disruptions, spend less on special education and be able to direct resources to those who really need them.

So I agree parents should listen to teacher's perceptions because they see their kid in the context of many more children. But I'd also encourage teachers to listen to parents, and be more research-minded about their intuitions. If they see a child who is interacting oddly or who acts out, focus more on the contextual triggers than on the kid at first. When does this happen, under what conditions and are there tweaks that prevent it? When does a child NOT act out, get along with peers well? If you do this regularly you'll gradually evolve to a classroom that is more inclusive of the full range of normal behavior--experience fewer kids who are triggered by contextual factors-- and train your intuition better to see those who need more intensive interventions.

Ok, getting off my soapbox.

It’s really a disservice to describe this as a soapbox post. This is an incredibly helpful, nuanced perspective. If only more people were tuned into these issues! Thanks for posting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Warning--long soapbox response here:
As a developmental psychologist, I regularly engage with teachers. I take their insights seriously and learn a lot from their experiences. I agree with OP that a parent is wise to listen to a teacher's perspective with an open mind.

But teachers are human and so, like us all, have formed biases. Given the number of children they deal with at the same time, teachers also may too quickly mentally label a child. They might tend to trust their teacher intuition rather than appropriately also question it. We all have biased beliefs about what normal behavior and social interaction should look like. Confirmation bias is real and I encounter many teachers who are overconfident in their perceptions of a child. They tend to see only the things that align with their perception, and don't as easily see the impact of context on the child's thinking/behavior. They see that most children adjust and this child is not so assume something must be wrong with the child. But the span of normal human behavior is really wide and some teachers are just not that accepting or flexible about normal variations in behavior. Or they might not be aware of how the context and their expectations for behavior may not be well-aligned with some normal human variations in need for activity, for social interactions, for time alone, for sensory stimulation etc. A kid who is within the normal spectrum may have wildly context-specific maladaptive, aggressive behavior. Teachers can have a hard time seeing how the context they create shapes peer interactions also. They can perceive as "flaws" or issues in the child things that are misalignments between the child and context that the teacher has some power to shape in fairly simple ways. This doesn't mean they are a bad teacher, it just kind of comes with the territory--they have a lot of kids to keep track of and they need them to act relatively in line with each other to keep the classroom going as they are expected to. Also people who become teachers are often people who thrived in a school environment and don't on a gut level perceive how the demands it often creates (lots of sensory stimulation, lots of social interaction, minimal physical activity) might be at odds with a child's sensory system or temperament.

Diagnosis is a lot more complex than our gut reactions or initial screeners. Two children can present almost identically-- be having really problematic behaviors such as hitting others, major meltdowns etc. and one just needs to be able to freely go to a quiet, calm reading corner as soon they feel frustration rising and the other needs medication and years of interventions.

I have seen many seemingly "classic cases" of a developmental disability that turned out to be an combination of other factors. Personally, I wish classroom environments assumed it's normal to have traits associated with the most common disabilities and that things like being able to move regularly, control sensory inputs (e.g. through headphones, tinted glasses, some quiet less decorated spaces) to retreat from interaction for awhile, to fidget etc. were built in without disrupting the learning process. We'd have less disruptions, spend less on special education and be able to direct resources to those who really need them.

So I agree parents should listen to teacher's perceptions because they see their kid in the context of many more children. But I'd also encourage teachers to listen to parents, and be more research-minded about their intuitions. If they see a child who is interacting oddly or who acts out, focus more on the contextual triggers than on the kid at first. When does this happen, under what conditions and are there tweaks that prevent it? When does a child NOT act out, get along with peers well? If you do this regularly you'll gradually evolve to a classroom that is more inclusive of the full range of normal behavior--experience fewer kids who are triggered by contextual factors-- and train your intuition better to see those who need more intensive interventions.

Ok, getting off my soapbox.

It’s really a disservice to describe this as a soapbox post. This is an incredibly helpful, nuanced perspective. If only more people were tuned into these issues! Thanks for posting.

To clarify, I meant that it’s a disservice to yourself! This is the sort of post that keeps me coming back to DCUM, despite all the crazy, petty stuff.

[Anonymous]

You mean believe the teacher who told me to put my child on methamphetamines in K and asked to argue with his pediatrician when the doctor said no? For a child who is now 15, has never taken methamphetamines, and is in AP classes and college ready? Riiight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, glad you're back.

You still haven't responded to criticism of this part of your OP:

And your child on the spectrum is not only “a loner genius”, they’re autistic. And your child who is getting picked on is not always “an innocent victim” they usually need to learn how to NOT be a victim.

Do you really not see how statement like this are essentially designed to make parents angry and defensive? You are not qualified to diagnose a child with autism, and if you are speaking like this to parents with autistic children, do you really not understand that they are own their own difficult journey that you simply do not understand? And your phrasing here about kids who get picked on is absolutely unacceptable from a teacher. Absolutely, 100%, not acceptable. Parents with kids who are being picked on and bullied are ALWAYS working with their kids to figure out how to keep themselves from being a target. Do you have kids? Do you not understand how heartbreaking it is to have send your kid to school where another kid is making fun of them or tormenting them? If there was a magic thing you could tell your kid to keep it from happening, you would.

It's just so condescending. If a teacher said this to me about my kid who was being tormented, not only would I not "believe her", I'd ask that my kid be removed from her class. When I child is being consistently picked on in your classroom, the answer is for the adult in the room to intervene, and work with the kids to address these issues. I get that you don't have perfect control, but you have more than I do in that moment, and "sorry kiddo but you've got to stop making yourself a victim here" is NOT going to cut it. Address the problem.

Fortunately I've never had a teacher pull this with me -- we've always had good relationships built on trust and mutual respect. But what you wrote in your OP was not trusting or respectful. I think if you have enough poor relationships with parents to write something like this, the problem might be you.

Well folks I apologize for triggering so many parents with this post. Please know that I would never in a million years be so blunt in an actual conversation with a parent of a struggling student. I DO understand how heartbreaking it is, having been on the receiving end of such information twice. Please know, however, that there are many many parents out there who would rather deny that a problem exists and verbally attack the teacher for bringing it up in the most respectful, compassionate way. That was the audience for this post - parents who will leave their child, the teacher and sometimes the entire affected class hanging because they cannot believe that their child might need extra support. It is completely demoralizing for all involved. So, with those experiences under my belt along with the multiple chastisements posted in this thread from parents who DO want to support their struggling children, I will think twice about having these conversations in the future. You have cut me down to size, put me in my place, and schooled the teacher.

OP,
Thank you for your attempt here. I’m a teacher, but for the moment I’m going to speak from the perspective of a parent. I had a teacher who sat me down and gave me some raw, upsetting information about my own child. No other teacher had done that. I was defensive at first. I wanted to defend my child, her upbringing, and all I had already done to try to prepare her for school. I took the teacher’s comments as a criticism and, initially, I was mad at the teacher for exposing something I didn’t want to accept or deal with. Two years later, I have nothing but appreciation for that teacher. She took the time to really learn about my child and she cared enough to put herself in that uncomfortable position. I can’t imagine she relished having that conversation with me. What she said was a spark and I am now grateful for her insights.

I know you were speaking from experience and you weren’t speaking to ALL parents. I think the reason you got so much heat in response is because (A) we are all very defensive about our own children and (B) this is DCUM and our intentions/tone don’t always translate the way we want them to.

OP here - thank you, fellow teacher and fellow parent. I concur with all you said and how well you said it. My old pony, Trigger, is back in his stall and I will give myself a bit more time between a hard day and posting anything on a public forum. Your balanced assessment of WHY these conversations can be so difficult is spot on.

Honestly as a parent I thought your post was fine and I was surprised at all the comments. But I have mainly had positive interactions with teachers around social issues that have come up for my kid. Also, I'm the one who has brought them up.

One question I have though is this: "And your child who is getting picked on is not always “an innocent victim” they usually need to learn how to NOT be a victim" - this seems suspect to me. How do you teach this? At home it's so easy to say do x do y when so and so bothers you. I don't think it helps. This is an age old problem and I don't really see how we parents can actually help our victim kids. Seems like only the teacher can devise a solution in the moment. And unless it's super obvious bullying, they usually don't do anything in my experience.

The only way to teach someone to not be a victim in this context is to teach them to stand up for themselves, fight back and have self-respect. I don't see how schools can teach that or how parents can do that without information.

"Fight back" how? Be specific. Surely you're not suggesting physical fighting?

If they are being physically assaulted then yes. It's called self-defense and self-respect. What would you suggest as a response to physical assault? Remember that we are talking about kids that are being bullied. Should they accept it? If not, what should they do?

Good luck with that. Schools have zero tolerance policies for any kind of physical violence, even if it is self defense. The bullied child who hits back will end up getting detention or be suspended.

Not necessarily. My shy, introverted, rule follower DC (who had never been in trouble before) punched a kid who was bullying him. The school called and essentially said "We never condone violence and we need you to impress upon DC that hitting is not a solution. (pause) However...we talked to all the other kids who witnesses the incident, and the kid he hit is was bullying him, and your kid is not in trouble." It ended up being the best thing ever -- my DC was never bullied again. By anyone.

[Anonymous]

“I really want to spend an enormous amount of time writing emails and calling parents to discuss Larla’s academic challenges. As a teacher, I have sooo much extra time in the day to spend writing up conference minutes, reaching out to specialists, filling out forms, etc…”. … said no teacher ever!

I taught 3rd grade at an immersion school for many years. The first grade teacher was nice and sweet. All the parents loved her. All her students were did well. All those first graders got excellent marks. She never had any kids with issues. The second grade teacher would end up “flagging” a few students who were struggling. She would start to set up meetings with parents, counselors, support team. Since this was a private school, students who were going to be “counseled out” had to be informed by Oct-Nov which gave families time to apply to other schools. By the time they came to me in third grade, I had to get the ball rolling to make it clear to these families that our school was not the right fit. Had the first grade teacher reached out earlier, these kids would have been placed in a school that would suit their needs.

Basically, it is much easier to teachers to look the other way, and let the next teacher address any issues. The teachers who do reach out to parents, in my view, really care. They end up with a lot of extra work, which they end up doing after contract hours.