US Supreme Court Rules Against Affirmative Action in College Admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:An aspect of the US Supreme court case involving Harvard University and affirmative action is that the litigants want to be admitted to a school for the best and most prestigious educational experience in the world, yet they want to change how that educational institution does its business.

This is not a matter of exclusion--as in not admitting applicants of a certain race, religion, or ethnicity, etc.--this is a case about forcing the arguably best educational institution in the world how to do its business in creating such a superb educational experience. And, yes, I do understand that it was brought & decided based on the US Constitution's equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, but, in this matter, it seems to be an overreach by the court. If, for example, we focus on Asian representation in the student body at Harvard College, Asians comprise about 6.3% of the US population, but are about 38% of the most recent entering class at Harvard--which does not appear to be a case of insidious discrimination when it is in fact a case of over-representation. And Harvard's admission policies do not constitute fraud, as Harvard is upfront that standardized test scores and GPAs are not the only factors considered in the admissions process. And class valedictorians and salutorians of many different races , religions, and ethnic backgrounds are denied admission to Harvard each and every year.

why someone like this keep saying 'test scores and GPAs are not the only factors'.
Yes everyone knows. Look at the table above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is quite eye-opening to read some of these posts- so many people showing how racist they are, even while they claim that they are not. Their convoluted way of thinking seems so normal to them, that they truly have no idea how easily everyone else can see how superior they feel their own race is to all others.

I'm shocked by racism agasint Asians.

But you’re just fine with racism against other groups. We see how you think.

This exactly.

Keep the Black people out of elite colleges and the boardroom at any costs. But they can keep fighting the wars for the USA.

Are you saying that black people aren't smart enough for elite colleges or qualified enough for boardrooms?
Now, that is a racist mindset.

Underestimating the competence of black people is the dumbest thing that white people do to themselves. I went to a T14 law schools. The people who thought our black classmates were not qualified and only there because of affirmative action always ended up getting intellectually destroyed by those same classmates in moot court or a class discussion. They had it coming, but it was always painful to watch. Taking people's qualifications for granted is dangerous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the Harvard stats. 150 points lower on the SAT. Party of over. Time for merit.

Cheapened the degree.

It’s entirely possible that those 150 points are only due to prepping and that the non-prepped score is actually an equivalent. In other words, when you add in the advantage of prepping, the scores are pointing to the same amount of merit.

You should study and prepare for those major tests like that.
If you are careless and don't do that, you don't belong in the elite schools.
What is matter with these people??

These tests weren’t originally meant to be taken after the extreme amounts of “prep” that sometimes occurs now. The scores are no longer useful in giving insight into a student’s potential, so colleges are moving away from using them. Scores acquired by extreme prepping practices simply are not that useful in distinguishing one student’s abilities forum another.

The best university in the world MIT disagrees with you after years of research.
Colleges are not moving away. I want to keep it in the name of test optional.

So, MIT has published a study comparing outcomes between students who engaged in extreme prepping practices for the SAT and ACT and those who did not? Do you have a link to that exact study?

You should study and prepare for those major tests such as SAT, MCAT, Bar Exam, Professional Engineer exam, etc.
It's expected.
If you are careless and don't do that, you don't belong in the elite schools.
You just want to walk in without much effort? WTF

SAT is supposed to measure ability to learn, not what you have already learned.

the BAR exam and engineering tests test what you have already learned.

MIT research says SAT and GPA together are the best indication of how you'll be successful in college.

I can also say that BAR exam and Engineering tests idicate how succssful you will be in those professions.

MIT says they would like the option to see SAT. They also say they know a perfect SAT does not mean you will be a successful student at MIT. They also will accept applications without an SAT if you have a compelling reason.

Looks like MIT is smart enough to know it’s 1 data point with some information but not enough to choose a successful student.

You cite MIT because it's like the ONLY top college that went back to standardized testing, which fits your preference.

It's just one school that focuses on tech. A clear outlier since no other T25 college followed suit. Columbia went permanently test optional. The top colleges are test optional. They are not going back to requiring the SAT/ACT.

But keep pulling MIT out to make your point.

#sowhat

If those schools think SAT is no good and not a good measrue, they wouldn've gone test blind already, not test optional.
they want to keep the test. they like high scores.

SAT is a good predictor of students’ parent wealth. That is about. MIT does not need these test to determine their students. MIT has enough data points to do that without the SAT/ACT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is quite eye-opening to read some of these posts- so many people showing how racist they are, even while they claim that they are not. Their convoluted way of thinking seems so normal to them, that they truly have no idea how easily everyone else can see how superior they feel their own race is to all others.

I'm shocked by racism agasint Asians.

But you’re just fine with racism against other groups. We see how you think.

This exactly.

Keep the Black people out of elite colleges and the boardroom at any costs. But they can keep fighting the wars for the USA.

Are you saying that black people aren't smart enough for elite colleges or qualified enough for boardrooms?
Now, that is a racist mindset.

Underestimating the competence of black people is the dumbest thing that white people do to themselves. I went to a T14 law schools. The people who thought our black classmates were not qualified and only there because of affirmative action always ended up getting intellectually destroyed by those same classmates in moot court or a class discussion. They had it coming, but it was always painful to watch. Taking people's qualifications for granted is dangerous.

You are responding to someone who completely missed the sarcasm of the post they were replying to. Did you miss it, too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:An aspect of the US Supreme court case involving Harvard University and affirmative action is that the litigants want to be admitted to a school for the best and most prestigious educational experience in the world, yet they want to change how that educational institution does its business.

This is not a matter of exclusion--as in not admitting applicants of a certain race, religion, or ethnicity, etc.--this is a case about forcing the arguably best educational institution in the world how to do its business in creating such a superb educational experience. And, yes, I do understand that it was brought & decided based on the US Constitution's equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, but, in this matter, it seems to be an overreach by the court. If, for example, we focus on Asian representation in the student body at Harvard College, Asians comprise about 6.3% of the US population, but are about 38% of the most recent entering class at Harvard--which does not appear to be a case of insidious discrimination when it is in fact a case of over-representation. And Harvard's admission policies do not constitute fraud, as Harvard is upfront that standardized test scores and GPAs are not the only factors considered in the admissions process. And class valedictorians and salutorians of many different races , religions, and ethnic backgrounds are denied admission to Harvard each and every year.

^ you're beating a dead horse. I'm sure many of us agree with you, but that position lost. Now Harvard just needs to figure out how to keep it's incoming classes diversified without over reliance on race and other prohibited factors. They're smart people there - I'm sure they'll figure out a way to do it.

Interesting point regarding "beating a dead horse", but I do disagree--and I think the remainder of your post indicates that you do as well.

The US Supreme Court decision gave ample guidance on how to approach the matter of diversity in admissions by sharing that individual matters can be discussed in applicant's admission essay. Essentially, the US Supreme court decision holding is that affirmative action admissions can be done on a subjective, but not objective, basis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the Harvard stats. 150 points lower on the SAT. Party of over. Time for merit.

Cheapened the degree.

It’s entirely possible that those 150 points are only due to prepping and that the non-prepped score is actually an equivalent. In other words, when you add in the advantage of prepping, the scores are pointing to the same amount of merit.

You should study and prepare for those major tests like that.
If you are careless and don't do that, you don't belong in the elite schools.
What is matter with these people??

These tests weren’t originally meant to be taken after the extreme amounts of “prep” that sometimes occurs now. The scores are no longer useful in giving insight into a student’s potential, so colleges are moving away from using them. Scores acquired by extreme prepping practices simply are not that useful in distinguishing one student’s abilities forum another.

The best university in the world MIT disagrees with you after years of research.
Colleges are not moving away. I want to keep it in the name of test optional.

So, MIT has published a study comparing outcomes between students who engaged in extreme prepping practices for the SAT and ACT and those who did not? Do you have a link to that exact study?

You should study and prepare for those major tests such as SAT, MCAT, Bar Exam, Professional Engineer exam, etc.
It's expected.
If you are careless and don't do that, you don't belong in the elite schools.
You just want to walk in without much effort? WTF

SAT is supposed to measure ability to learn, not what you have already learned.

the BAR exam and engineering tests test what you have already learned.

MIT research says SAT and GPA together are the best indication of how you'll be successful in college.

I can also say that BAR exam and Engineering tests idicate how succssful you will be in those professions.

MIT says they would like the option to see SAT. They also say they know a perfect SAT does not mean you will be a successful student at MIT. They also will accept applications without an SAT if you have a compelling reason.

Looks like MIT is smart enough to know it’s 1 data point with some information but not enough to choose a successful student.

You cite MIT because it's like the ONLY top college that went back to standardized testing, which fits your preference.

It's just one school that focuses on tech. A clear outlier since no other T25 college followed suit. Columbia went permanently test optional. The top colleges are test optional. They are not going back to requiring the SAT/ACT.

But keep pulling MIT out to make your point.

#sowhat

If those schools think SAT is no good and not a good measrue, they wouldn've gone test blind already, not test optional.
they want to keep the test. they like high scores.

They will use it in the way it was originally intended to find a needle in a haystack.

Wishful thinking. You're behind the times already. Standardized testing is becoming less relevant each admissions cycle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is quite eye-opening to read some of these posts- so many people showing how racist they are, even while they claim that they are not. Their convoluted way of thinking seems so normal to them, that they truly have no idea how easily everyone else can see how superior they feel their own race is to all others.

I'm shocked by racism agasint Asians.

But you’re just fine with racism against other groups. We see how you think.

This exactly.

Keep the Black people out of elite colleges and the boardroom at any costs. But they can keep fighting the wars for the USA.

Are you saying that black people aren't smart enough for elite colleges or qualified enough for boardrooms?
Now, that is a racist mindset.

No, they are saying that laws will be made to keep black people out of college and boardrooms but laws to keep rich white kids in the pipeline will be maintained.

Or the pipeline will be a different pipeline. If the Ivies become all Asian American kids, then elite firms are going to do less hiring from the Ivies and more from other sources. White people aren't going to stop hiring their friends' kids just because that kid went to Vanderbilt and not Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the Harvard stats. 150 points lower on the SAT. Party of over. Time for merit.

Cheapened the degree.

It’s entirely possible that those 150 points are only due to prepping and that the non-prepped score is actually an equivalent. In other words, when you add in the advantage of prepping, the scores are pointing to the same amount of merit.

You should study and prepare for those major tests like that.
If you are careless and don't do that, you don't belong in the elite schools.
What is matter with these people??

These tests weren’t originally meant to be taken after the extreme amounts of “prep” that sometimes occurs now. The scores are no longer useful in giving insight into a student’s potential, so colleges are moving away from using them. Scores acquired by extreme prepping practices simply are not that useful in distinguishing one student’s abilities forum another.

The best university in the world MIT disagrees with you after years of research.
Colleges are not moving away. I want to keep it in the name of test optional.

So, MIT has published a study comparing outcomes between students who engaged in extreme prepping practices for the SAT and ACT and those who did not? Do you have a link to that exact study?

You should study and prepare for those major tests such as SAT, MCAT, Bar Exam, Professional Engineer exam, etc.
It's expected.
If you are careless and don't do that, you don't belong in the elite schools.
You just want to walk in without much effort? WTF

SAT is supposed to measure ability to learn, not what you have already learned.

the BAR exam and engineering tests test what you have already learned.

MIT research says SAT and GPA together are the best indication of how you'll be successful in college.

I can also say that BAR exam and Engineering tests idicate how succssful you will be in those professions.

MIT says they would like the option to see SAT. They also say they know a perfect SAT does not mean you will be a successful student at MIT. They also will accept applications without an SAT if you have a compelling reason.

Looks like MIT is smart enough to know it’s 1 data point with some information but not enough to choose a successful student.

You cite MIT because it's like the ONLY top college that went back to standardized testing, which fits your preference.

It's just one school that focuses on tech. A clear outlier since no other T25 college followed suit. Columbia went permanently test optional. The top colleges are test optional. They are not going back to requiring the SAT/ACT.

But keep pulling MIT out to make your point.

#sowhat

If those schools think SAT is no good and not a good measrue, they wouldn've gone test blind already, not test optional.
they want to keep the test. they like high scores.

SAT is a good predictor of students’ parent wealth. That is about. MIT does not need these test to determine their students. MIT has enough data points to do that without the SAT/ACT.

But if you have a high test score and low wealth and no Prepping SAT is valuable

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the Harvard stats. 150 points lower on the SAT. Party of over. Time for merit.

Cheapened the degree.

It’s entirely possible that those 150 points are only due to prepping and that the non-prepped score is actually an equivalent. In other words, when you add in the advantage of prepping, the scores are pointing to the same amount of merit.

You should study and prepare for those major tests like that.
If you are careless and don't do that, you don't belong in the elite schools.
What is matter with these people??

These tests weren’t originally meant to be taken after the extreme amounts of “prep” that sometimes occurs now. The scores are no longer useful in giving insight into a student’s potential, so colleges are moving away from using them. Scores acquired by extreme prepping practices simply are not that useful in distinguishing one student’s abilities forum another.

The best university in the world MIT disagrees with you after years of research.
Colleges are not moving away. I want to keep it in the name of test optional.

So, MIT has published a study comparing outcomes between students who engaged in extreme prepping practices for the SAT and ACT and those who did not? Do you have a link to that exact study?

You should study and prepare for those major tests such as SAT, MCAT, Bar Exam, Professional Engineer exam, etc.
It's expected.
If you are careless and don't do that, you don't belong in the elite schools.
You just want to walk in without much effort? WTF

SAT is supposed to measure ability to learn, not what you have already learned.

the BAR exam and engineering tests test what you have already learned.

MIT research says SAT and GPA together are the best indication of how you'll be successful in college.

I can also say that BAR exam and Engineering tests idicate how succssful you will be in those professions.

MIT says they would like the option to see SAT. They also say they know a perfect SAT does not mean you will be a successful student at MIT. They also will accept applications without an SAT if you have a compelling reason.

Looks like MIT is smart enough to know it’s 1 data point with some information but not enough to choose a successful student.

You cite MIT because it's like the ONLY top college that went back to standardized testing, which fits your preference.

It's just one school that focuses on tech. A clear outlier since no other T25 college followed suit. Columbia went permanently test optional. The top colleges are test optional. They are not going back to requiring the SAT/ACT.

But keep pulling MIT out to make your point.

#sowhat

If those schools think SAT is no good and not a good measrue, they wouldn've gone test blind already, not test optional.
they want to keep the test. they like high scores.

SAT is a good predictor of students’ parent wealth. That is about. MIT does not need these test to determine their students. MIT has enough data points to do that without the SAT/ACT.

Same for GPA, rigor, essays, activities.
Sigh

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the Harvard stats. 150 points lower on the SAT. Party of over. Time for merit.

Cheapened the degree.

It’s entirely possible that those 150 points are only due to prepping and that the non-prepped score is actually an equivalent. In other words, when you add in the advantage of prepping, the scores are pointing to the same amount of merit.

You should study and prepare for those major tests like that.
If you are careless and don't do that, you don't belong in the elite schools.
What is matter with these people??

These tests weren’t originally meant to be taken after the extreme amounts of “prep” that sometimes occurs now. The scores are no longer useful in giving insight into a student’s potential, so colleges are moving away from using them. Scores acquired by extreme prepping practices simply are not that useful in distinguishing one student’s abilities forum another.

The best university in the world MIT disagrees with you after years of research.
Colleges are not moving away. I want to keep it in the name of test optional.

So, MIT has published a study comparing outcomes between students who engaged in extreme prepping practices for the SAT and ACT and those who did not? Do you have a link to that exact study?

You should study and prepare for those major tests such as SAT, MCAT, Bar Exam, Professional Engineer exam, etc.
It's expected.
If you are careless and don't do that, you don't belong in the elite schools.
You just want to walk in without much effort? WTF

SAT is supposed to measure ability to learn, not what you have already learned.

the BAR exam and engineering tests test what you have already learned.

MIT research says SAT and GPA together are the best indication of how you'll be successful in college.

I can also say that BAR exam and Engineering tests idicate how succssful you will be in those professions.

MIT says they would like the option to see SAT. They also say they know a perfect SAT does not mean you will be a successful student at MIT. They also will accept applications without an SAT if you have a compelling reason.

Looks like MIT is smart enough to know it’s 1 data point with some information but not enough to choose a successful student.

You cite MIT because it's like the ONLY top college that went back to standardized testing, which fits your preference.

It's just one school that focuses on tech. A clear outlier since no other T25 college followed suit. Columbia went permanently test optional. The top colleges are test optional. They are not going back to requiring the SAT/ACT.

But keep pulling MIT out to make your point.

#sowhat

If those schools think SAT is no good and not a good measrue, they wouldn've gone test blind already, not test optional.
they want to keep the test. they like high scores.

They will use it in the way it was originally intended to find a needle in a haystack.

Wishful thinking. You're behind the times already. Standardized testing is becoming less relevant each admissions cycle.

It’s already being used that way which lead to the lawsuit.

A high SAT, but a tiny bit lower than the plaintiff to them is AA. But it’s not it’s finding the needle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the Harvard stats. 150 points lower on the SAT. Party of over. Time for merit.

Cheapened the degree.

It’s entirely possible that those 150 points are only due to prepping and that the non-prepped score is actually an equivalent. In other words, when you add in the advantage of prepping, the scores are pointing to the same amount of merit.

They recently spent 500 million dollars on the Adolescent Brain Cognitive Development (ABCD) study, which tested over 10,000 American ten-year-olds into adulthood: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0736-6

The average IQ of Asians in the study was 108, Whites 100 and Blacks 83. Immigrant blacks averaged 91.

I’m sure some of the gap is due to a culture that emphasizes academics, but there’s an almost 2 standard deviation gap between Asians and Blacks. Given these IQ scores, the test score gaps we see make perfect sense. This also helps explain why a large fraction of Blacks in top schools are the children of immigrants.

Are Asian students okay with attending an school with an all-Asian student body in a very diverse country ?

I understand that the response is likely to be that one wants to attend university with the best qualified students regardless of race/ethnicity so that if the best qualified are all Asian students, then so be it. But, this raises the issue of what constitutes the "best qualified" ? Is the American educational experience just about book learning and tests ?

"Asuan" refers to people from 70+ countries and 60%+ of the world population with many races and languages and cultures. Just because their skin color tends not only to be white or black doesn't mean there isn't tremendous diversity in "asian" students. If you look beyond these simplistic and artificial categories of "white" "black" "adian" and "hispanic" there would be plenty of "real diversity" apparent in students and their backgrounds even if admissions was done just by test scores. Look at the variety of students in UK / London universities- they come from all parts of the world.amd all races. There is plenty of diversity to be found past the 4 silly categories that have lost their meaning nearly 60 years and three generations after 1965.

[Anonymous]

People are worried rich people prepping for SAT, but perfectly fine with essays you can't even tell who actually wrote it
LMFAO

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the Harvard stats. 150 points lower on the SAT. Party of over. Time for merit.

Cheapened the degree.

It’s entirely possible that those 150 points are only due to prepping and that the non-prepped score is actually an equivalent. In other words, when you add in the advantage of prepping, the scores are pointing to the same amount of merit.

They recently spent 500 million dollars on the Adolescent Brain Cognitive Development (ABCD) study, which tested over 10,000 American ten-year-olds into adulthood: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0736-6

The average IQ of Asians in the study was 108, Whites 100 and Blacks 83. Immigrant blacks averaged 91.

I’m sure some of the gap is due to a culture that emphasizes academics, but there’s an almost 2 standard deviation gap between Asians and Blacks. Given these IQ scores, the test score gaps we see make perfect sense. This also helps explain why a large fraction of Blacks in top schools are the children of immigrants.

Are Asian students okay with attending an school with an all-Asian student body in a very diverse country ?

I understand that the response is likely to be that one wants to attend university with the best qualified students regardless of race/ethnicity so that if the best qualified are all Asian students, then so be it. But, this raises the issue of what constitutes the "best qualified" ? Is the American educational experience just about book learning and tests ?

"Asuan" refers to people from 70+ countries and 60%+ of the world population with many races and languages and cultures. Just because their skin color tends not only to be white or black doesn't mean there isn't tremendous diversity in "asian" students. If you look beyond these simplistic and artificial categories of "white" "black" "adian" and "hispanic" there would be plenty of "real diversity" apparent in students and their backgrounds even if admissions was done just by test scores. Look at the variety of students in UK / London universities- they come from all parts of the world.amd all races. There is plenty of diversity to be found past the 4 silly categories that have lost their meaning nearly 60 years and three generations after 1965.

Elite UK schools admit by major, using subject test results. SFFA would argue that this is implicit discrimination. SFFA wants everyone measured by the same yardstick, and would argue that if high-scoring students don’t want to study the humanities, it is illegal for anyone to study the humanities.

[Anonymous]

GOP Steve Miller sent a letter to Harvard Law:

You are hereby warned.
Any such regime—for example, relying on biography over qualifications—to
achieve desired racial outcomes is clearly illegal and unconstitutional, and you
will face legal repercussions accordingly.
We will ensure that every faculty member, staff member, student, and
applicant for admission can communicate with us about any efforts to use
underhanded race, national origin, and sex preferences, and we will use any
information obtained to ensure accountability.
America First Legal is a charitable nonprofit and civil rights organization that
provides free legal services to victims of unlawful discrimination. We will
represent victims of these policies and sue any law school that allows these
illegal and discriminatory practices to continue.

Sincerely,
Stephen Miller
President
America First

Amen

[Anonymous]

I mean, obviously, the Court can’t prohibit applicants from sharing their stories about racism and the like. The fact is, so many applicants to “elite” colleges have led utterly pampered and bubbled up existences. Schools should aggressively continue to make sure racial and economic diversity play a vital role in admissions. I see absolutely nothing in this decision that can stand in the way of that. No school wants—or should want—classes heavy on privileged clones from, say, nova.