Studies on "integrated schools"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

the goal of MCPS is to eliminate the achievement gap. You do that by spreading out the higher and lower performers equally to all schools so everyone floats to the mean. The goal is to have average schools everywhere no more good or bad schools

Parents on this boars are being deliberately obtuse. Pushing for socioeconomic diversity in schools leads to better performance outcomes (definitive study cited upthread). Full stop. Show me in the data that it *reduces* outcomes for some.

For the last 50 years, parents have used arguments like the above, or other which are appallingly classist or racist to 1) fight against integration, economic or racial and 2) justify white flight.

There's no such thing as a "definitive" study. This is the social science field; they're currently in the midst of a replication crisis because a large portion of the studies they've done can't be replicated. Do researchers study the effects of this integration on the higher performing students? Most studies I've read don't, and from what I've seen education researchers don't really care. The government tried something like this on a large scale (moving to opportunity) and there were no educational gains. In fact, almost all educational interventions show no lasting gains.

Honestly, if this integration was a magic bullet then the problem would have been solved by now. What are you going to suggest we do once this also fails?

This was the research that I was referring to, not the century foundation study.

Anonymous wrote:The Coleman report is considered the definitive study on these factors. Conducted after the civil rights act of 1964 (and published 12 years after Brown) it looked comprehensively at the factors driving student achievement.

Of all the factors, school composition (racial and socioeconomic ) had the highest relationship.

Whole study: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED012275.pdf
Relevant summary section: 1.4
Relevant data and how they define: 2.4
Impacts of school composition on student achievement: section 3


Here is an even easier to digest more recent summary of studies from Ohio State: http://www.kirwaninstitute.osu.edu/reports/2009/02_2009_EducationIntegrationBenefitsReport.pdf

I don’t know why I’m doing this - this data and this information has been out there for *50* years. Yet parents have been fighting against this data for *50* years with the anecdotal data and verve we’ve seen on all these threads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

That isn't the purpose of events like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

That isn't the purpose of events like that.

The only people who may really care about the "purpose" of events are those who running it.

The rest of us are more affected by the real actions, rather than what the organizers have in their minds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone explain the benefits of being around low performing kids from uneducated families for higher performing kids of college educated parents?
My child has been in a school over 50% farms/ESOL and honestly there were only two benefits: tons of free stuff for the whole school and yummy food at festivals.
But I am sure I am narrow minded so I want to expand my horizons.

One possible benefit is that it's easier for your child to be at the top of the class which might make help to get into college. It's also possible that the classes might be graded less harshly, which also might help.

Are you saying my kid might get graded like a brown kid and appear like an elite white kid without working for it?

I am the original poster of this question. I didn’t post about “brown kids” (someone else jumped into the discussion).
But this grading/rating issue will not come into play until high school, won’t it?
What are the benefits in elementary and middle?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone explain the benefits of being around low performing kids from uneducated families for higher performing kids of college educated parents?
My child has been in a school over 50% farms/ESOL and honestly there were only two benefits: tons of free stuff for the whole school and yummy food at festivals.
But I am sure I am narrow minded so I want to expand my horizons.

One possible benefit is that it's easier for your child to be at the top of the class which might make help to get into college. It's also possible that the classes might be graded less harshly, which also might help.

Are you saying my kid might get graded like a brown kid and appear like an elite white kid without working for it?

I am the original poster of this question. I didn’t post about “brown kids” (someone else jumped into the discussion).
But this grading/rating issue will not come into play until high school, won’t it?
What are the benefits in elementary and middle?

How is not learning anything (whether or not you get a good score for it) a benefit?? Actually I think getting a good score for learning nothing is a HUGE disadvantage. The kids don't learn anything and they don't even learn a work ethic and they go to college (if they get there!) with totally unrealistic expectations. That all sounds pretty negative to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone explain the benefits of being around low performing kids from uneducated families for higher performing kids of college educated parents?
My child has been in a school over 50% farms/ESOL and honestly there were only two benefits: tons of free stuff for the whole school and yummy food at festivals.
But I am sure I am narrow minded so I want to expand my horizons.

Well, there's learning about the society your child is growing up into, of course.

I don’t know what he learned in K-2, the only indication of learning about society was his question about why blond hair like his were so rare and everyone else had black hair. I think he even kind of wished to be black haired at some point.
He also commented about how at his new school a lot of people had blond hair, not just him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

The people who are [that thing] are rarely in agreement with each other about what are the best actions to take.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

The people who are [that thing] are rarely in agreement with each other about what are the best actions to take.

Nobody said that there had to be unanimity from people who are [that thing] about what it's like - just that people who are NOT [that thing] are NOT the ones to talk about what it's like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You get a white kid, Blair gets some white kids, Kennedy gets a white kid, Wheaton we have some white kids for you.




Sorry Einstein, we ran out

This deserves a LoL!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

So tell us, PP. What does it feel like to be a black person and to know that apparently the only hope for people of your color to get a decent education is to mix in some white kids? (Genuine question.) And what exactly do you think is happening in that case? Is it so the white kids can teach the black kids stuff in class, or so the entire class isn't full of disciplinary problems so the teacher has a fighting chance of keeping some control because you see white kids as better behaved, or so the white kids can show the black kids what doing homework is like, or so white kids can show black kids what it's like to sit down and do their work, or something else? And is it any white kid that would do, or it needs to be an UMC white kid for this idea to work?

If we can understand what the reason is that you think you need white kids in your classes for the black kids to be able to learn to read and write and count the way the white kids seem to be able to do, maybe we can come up with some other ideas that can help. But I'm honestly at a loss right now, and I imagine that other people probably are as well.

Oh, and I have a PhD and do not buy into that "definitive study" referenced above. Please give an actual reason, even if it's just a guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

Do you mean i should not notice the four successful black women on BOE in MCPS because I am not black? Should only thr AA and hispanic BOE members be allowed to discuss why the AA and Hispanic students’ low performance cause the achievement gap? I thought we are all American, the color of your skin determines whether you have a say in a issue or not, the issue could be one in your own community but could well be one in the society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

So tell us, PP. What does it feel like to be a black person and to know that apparently the only hope for people of your color to get a decent education is to mix in some white kids? (Genuine question.) And what exactly do you think is happening in that case? Is it so the white kids can teach the black kids stuff in class, or so the entire class isn't full of disciplinary problems so the teacher has a fighting chance of keeping some control because you see white kids as better behaved, or so the white kids can show the black kids what doing homework is like, or so white kids can show black kids what it's like to sit down and do their work, or something else? And is it any white kid that would do, or it needs to be an UMC white kid for this idea to work?

If we can understand what the reason is that you think you need white kids in your classes for the black kids to be able to learn to read and write and count the way the white kids seem to be able to do, maybe we can come up with some other ideas that can help. But I'm honestly at a loss right now, and I imagine that other people probably are as well.

Oh, and I have a PhD and do not buy into that "definitive study" referenced above. Please give an actual reason, even if it's just a guess.

Glad you have a PhD.

The study above lays out that the factor most affecting student achievement for the positive is economic integration. It also looks.at race independently, and it is.more than fair to say that 50 years later we can see how those can intersect.

My theory, backed up by experience and studies? Concentrated poverty in schools harms student achievement, denies those students opportunities, and is u unjust and unjustified. This county's income segregation, which manifests itself in the racial composition, farms rates, and esol rates of the schools promotes that injustice. We have a moral obligation to change that.

It isn't "sprinkling white kids." It is working to dismantle the segregation of schools to improve achievement for all students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

So tell us, PP. What does it feel like to be a black person and to know that apparently the only hope for people of your color to get a decent education is to mix in some white kids? (Genuine question.) And what exactly do you think is happening in that case? Is it so the white kids can teach the black kids stuff in class, or so the entire class isn't full of disciplinary problems so the teacher has a fighting chance of keeping some control because you see white kids as better behaved, or so the white kids can show the black kids what doing homework is like, or so white kids can show black kids what it's like to sit down and do their work, or something else? And is it any white kid that would do, or it needs to be an UMC white kid for this idea to work?

If we can understand what the reason is that you think you need white kids in your classes for the black kids to be able to learn to read and write and count the way the white kids seem to be able to do, maybe we can come up with some other ideas that can help. But I'm honestly at a loss right now, and I imagine that other people probably are as well.

Oh, and I have a PhD and do not buy into that "definitive study" referenced above. Please give an actual reason, even if it's just a guess.

Glad you have a PhD.

The study above lays out that the factor most affecting student achievement for the positive is economic integration. It also looks.at race independently, and it is.more than fair to say that 50 years later we can see how those can intersect.

My theory, backed up by experience and studies? Concentrated poverty in schools harms student achievement, denies those students opportunities, and is u unjust and unjustified. This county's income segregation, which manifests itself in the racial composition, farms rates, and esol rates of the schools promotes that injustice. We have a moral obligation to change that.

It isn't "sprinkling white kids." It is working to dismantle the segregation of schools to improve achievement for all students.

Your theory may be right, may be wrong.

But talking about "moral obligation", please, only talk about "your" moral obligation, not ours.

The society has done more than enough to provide a fair playground. Now some of you guys want the society to give more to those who you think deserve help.
I don't share your view.

For me, it is morally wrong to enter the country illegally. It is morally wrong for parents to not put enough effort into their children's education. It is morally wrong for kids to not study at school.
I am not saying these are the only reasons for the low performance of some kids but they do contribute to a significant portion.

I can't correct those morally wrong doings, but don't expect me to share the "obligation" to change that. The society worked fine before and it will work out itself.