Studies on "integrated schools"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

Do you mean i should not notice the four successful black women on BOE in MCPS because I am not black? Should only thr AA and hispanic BOE members be allowed to discuss why the AA and Hispanic students’ low performance cause the achievement gap? I thought we are all American, the color of your skin determines whether you have a say in a issue or not, the issue could be one in your own community but could well be one in the society.

That is the reality. I thought people knew that already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

So tell us, PP. What does it feel like to be a black person and to know that apparently the only hope for people of your color to get a decent education is to mix in some white kids? (Genuine question.) And what exactly do you think is happening in that case? Is it so the white kids can teach the black kids stuff in class, or so the entire class isn't full of disciplinary problems so the teacher has a fighting chance of keeping some control because you see white kids as better behaved, or so the white kids can show the black kids what doing homework is like, or so white kids can show black kids what it's like to sit down and do their work, or something else? And is it any white kid that would do, or it needs to be an UMC white kid for this idea to work?

If we can understand what the reason is that you think you need white kids in your classes for the black kids to be able to learn to read and write and count the way the white kids seem to be able to do, maybe we can come up with some other ideas that can help. But I'm honestly at a loss right now, and I imagine that other people probably are as well.

Oh, and I have a PhD and do not buy into that "definitive study" referenced above. Please give an actual reason, even if it's just a guess.

Glad you have a PhD.

The study above lays out that the factor most affecting student achievement for the positive is economic integration. It also looks.at race independently, and it is.more than fair to say that 50 years later we can see how those can intersect.

My theory, backed up by experience and studies? Concentrated poverty in schools harms student achievement, denies those students opportunities, and is u unjust and unjustified. This county's income segregation, which manifests itself in the racial composition, farms rates, and esol rates of the schools promotes that injustice. We have a moral obligation to change that.

It isn't "sprinkling white kids." It is working to dismantle the segregation of schools to improve achievement for all students.

Your theory may be right, may be wrong.

But talking about "moral obligation", please, only talk about "your" moral obligation, not ours.

The society has done more than enough to provide a fair playground. Now some of you guys want the society to give more to those who you think deserve help.
I don't share your view.

For me, it is morally wrong to enter the country illegally. It is morally wrong for parents to not put enough effort into their children's education. It is morally wrong for kids to not study at school.
I am not saying these are the only reasons for the low performance of some kids but they do contribute to a significant portion.

I can't correct those morally wrong doings, but don't expect me to share the "obligation" to change that. The society worked fine before and it will work out itself.

Worked fine for whom?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

So tell us, PP. What does it feel like to be a black person and to know that apparently the only hope for people of your color to get a decent education is to mix in some white kids? (Genuine question.) And what exactly do you think is happening in that case? Is it so the white kids can teach the black kids stuff in class, or so the entire class isn't full of disciplinary problems so the teacher has a fighting chance of keeping some control because you see white kids as better behaved, or so the white kids can show the black kids what doing homework is like, or so white kids can show black kids what it's like to sit down and do their work, or something else? And is it any white kid that would do, or it needs to be an UMC white kid for this idea to work?

If we can understand what the reason is that you think you need white kids in your classes for the black kids to be able to learn to read and write and count the way the white kids seem to be able to do, maybe we can come up with some other ideas that can help. But I'm honestly at a loss right now, and I imagine that other people probably are as well.

Oh, and I have a PhD and do not buy into that "definitive study" referenced above. Please give an actual reason, even if it's just a guess.

Glad you have a PhD.

The study above lays out that the factor most affecting student achievement for the positive is economic integration. It also looks.at race independently, and it is.more than fair to say that 50 years later we can see how those can intersect.

My theory, backed up by experience and studies? Concentrated poverty in schools harms student achievement, denies those students opportunities, and is u unjust and unjustified. This county's income segregation, which manifests itself in the racial composition, farms rates, and esol rates of the schools promotes that injustice. We have a moral obligation to change that.

It isn't "sprinkling white kids." It is working to dismantle the segregation of schools to improve achievement for all students.

First, the study you are talking about is unscientific BS.

Second, you didn't answer the question. What is the actual REASON? As in, the cause. Not the effects and the correlations and observations and your feelings about our moral obligations.

What is the actual REASON why black people need white people in the class? The only thing resembling an actual reason in your ramblings was a vague reference to a lack of "opportunities" if there are not enough white kids in the class. What do you mean by that, specifically?

[Anonymous]

I still don’t see any benefits for my middle class child.
My ancestors didn’t enslave anyone so the moral obligation thing doesn’t apply to me.
The only real benefit was having an easier time getting into college.

[Anonymous]

First, the study you are talking about is unscientific BS.

This one? This is the study I’m referring to. I’m not sure how this meets your definition of scientific bs.

The Coleman report is considered the definitive study on these factors. Conducted after the civil rights act of 1964 (and published 12 years after Brown) it looked comprehensively at the factors driving student achievement.

Of all the factors, school composition (racial and socioeconomic ) had the highest relationship.

Whole study: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED012275.pdf
Relevant summary section: 1.4
Relevant data and how they define: 2.4
Impacts of school composition on student achievement: section 3

Second, you didn't answer the question. What is the actual REASON? As in, the cause. Not the effects and the correlations and observations and your feelings about our moral obligations.

I’ll grant you that talking about moral obligations was a late night moment of poor judgment, that allowed you and others to dismiss my basic claim.

Concentrating poverty in schools harms student achievement.
Economic segregation, part of which comes from economic segregation in housing patterns and others in flight from schools concentrates poverty in certain schools and therefore harms student achievement.

What is the actual REASON why black people need white people in the class? The only thing resembling an actual reason in your ramblings was a vague reference to a lack of "opportunities" if there are not enough white kids in the class. What do you mean by that, specifically?

Lack of opportunities is (and I’m looking for the citation, but can’t put my finger on it) the fact that many high poverty schools, in their staff and family/community assumptions, don’t even lay out the opportunities for the kids (IE, they may encourage a high performing kid to ensure she is going to Montgomery college or Maryland, rather than encouraging her to reach for a higher ranked school that she could get into, but that the student doesn’t even know about and the staff has rarely had opportunity to push for). .

To give a concrete example, I attended an event with the late Harold Levy, who was the head of the Jack Kent Cooke foundation, working with high achieving poor students. Those students often walked into their programming with the Foundation with a career goal of going to DeVry or the University of Phoenix. Those were the ones recommended to them, and the only ones they could see themselves attending. That’s what we see as a lack of opportunity.

There is one more area on the subject of lack of opportunity I’ll just touch on - which is the middle class’ role in concentrating opportunity, and supporting policies that keep opportunity in the middle class. If you’d like to see more:
Summary from the Atlantic: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/530481/
Author’s book:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29502567

One of several (unfortunately research-login-needed) studies on the concept: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0895904818802106

I hope this answers your question, and helps you see why this is an issue Montgomery County needs to face head on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Worked fine for whom?

Worked fine for PP, of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I still don’t see any benefits for my middle class child.
My ancestors didn’t enslave anyone so the moral obligation thing doesn’t apply to me.
The only real benefit was having an easier time getting into college.

Do you benefit from people having been enslaved? Yes, you do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

So tell us, PP. What does it feel like to be a black person and to know that apparently the only hope for people of your color to get a decent education is to mix in some white kids? (Genuine question.) And what exactly do you think is happening in that case? Is it so the white kids can teach the black kids stuff in class, or so the entire class isn't full of disciplinary problems so the teacher has a fighting chance of keeping some control because you see white kids as better behaved, or so the white kids can show the black kids what doing homework is like, or so white kids can show black kids what it's like to sit down and do their work, or something else? And is it any white kid that would do, or it needs to be an UMC white kid for this idea to work?

If we can understand what the reason is that you think you need white kids in your classes for the black kids to be able to learn to read and write and count the way the white kids seem to be able to do, maybe we can come up with some other ideas that can help. But I'm honestly at a loss right now, and I imagine that other people probably are as well.

Oh, and I have a PhD and do not buy into that "definitive study" referenced above. Please give an actual reason, even if it's just a guess.

Glad you have a PhD.

The study above lays out that the factor most affecting student achievement for the positive is economic integration. It also looks.at race independently, and it is.more than fair to say that 50 years later we can see how those can intersect.

My theory, backed up by experience and studies? Concentrated poverty in schools harms student achievement, denies those students opportunities, and is u unjust and unjustified. This county's income segregation, which manifests itself in the racial composition, farms rates, and esol rates of the schools promotes that injustice. We have a moral obligation to change that.

It isn't "sprinkling white kids." It is working to dismantle the segregation of schools to improve achievement for all students.

Your theory may be right, may be wrong.

But talking about "moral obligation", please, only talk about "your" moral obligation, not ours.

The society has done more than enough to provide a fair playground. Now some of you guys want the society to give more to those who you think deserve help.
I don't share your view.

For me, it is morally wrong to enter the country illegally. It is morally wrong for parents to not put enough effort into their children's education. It is morally wrong for kids to not study at school.
I am not saying these are the only reasons for the low performance of some kids but they do contribute to a significant portion.

I can't correct those morally wrong doings, but don't expect me to share the "obligation" to change that. The society worked fine before and it will work out itself.

Worked fine for whom?

The society sustained itself and progressed.

Whatever your definition of "fine" is, if the society can't sustain itself, that "fine" moment will only be a moment in history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
To give a concrete example, I attended an event with the late Harold Levy, who was the head of the Jack Kent Cooke foundation, working with high achieving poor students. Those students often walked into their programming with the Foundation with a career goal of going to DeVry or the University of Phoenix. Those were the ones recommended to them, and the only ones they could see themselves attending. That’s what we see as a lack of opportunity.

Wow, I would hope that MCPS doesn't have counselors that are this bad. One hopes that counselors can identify high achieving students in their school and recommend for them to apply to suitable colleges. Why would a counselor recommend that a student attend DeVry when they have the ability to go to a much better college?

Anyway, this is an argument to make sure that schools have good counselors, rather than argue that schools must have a certain number of white students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
To give a concrete example, I attended an event with the late Harold Levy, who was the head of the Jack Kent Cooke foundation, working with high achieving poor students. Those students often walked into their programming with the Foundation with a career goal of going to DeVry or the University of Phoenix. Those were the ones recommended to them, and the only ones they could see themselves attending. That’s what we see as a lack of opportunity.

Wow, I would hope that MCPS doesn't have counselors that are this bad. One hopes that counselors can identify high achieving students in their school and recommend for them to apply to suitable colleges. Why would a counselor recommend that a student attend DeVry when they have the ability to go to a much better college?

Anyway, this is an argument to make sure that schools have good counselors, rather than argue that schools must have a certain number of white students.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
To give a concrete example, I attended an event with the late Harold Levy, who was the head of the Jack Kent Cooke foundation, working with high achieving poor students. Those students often walked into their programming with the Foundation with a career goal of going to DeVry or the University of Phoenix. Those were the ones recommended to them, and the only ones they could see themselves attending. That’s what we see as a lack of opportunity.

Wow, I would hope that MCPS doesn't have counselors that are this bad. One hopes that counselors can identify high achieving students in their school and recommend for them to apply to suitable colleges. Why would a counselor recommend that a student attend DeVry when they have the ability to go to a much better college?

Anyway, this is an argument to make sure that schools have good counselors, rather than argue that schools must have a certain number of white students.

You cannot be what you cannot see.

Counselors, family, networks and opportunity are all affected by de facto segregation. It isn’t just as simple as “making sure they have good counselors” (since we all know that isn’t even the primary way kids determine their futures). It is improving outcomes for all schools and showing all kids what is possible — which btw, requires real concerted and thoughtful effort to have real economic and racial integration, not what has been straw manned here as “sprinkling white kids.”


C

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
To give a concrete example, I attended an event with the late Harold Levy, who was the head of the Jack Kent Cooke foundation, working with high achieving poor students. Those students often walked into their programming with the Foundation with a career goal of going to DeVry or the University of Phoenix. Those were the ones recommended to them, and the only ones they could see themselves attending. That’s what we see as a lack of opportunity.

Wow, I would hope that MCPS doesn't have counselors that are this bad. One hopes that counselors can identify high achieving students in their school and recommend for them to apply to suitable colleges. Why would a counselor recommend that a student attend DeVry when they have the ability to go to a much better college?

Anyway, this is an argument to make sure that schools have good counselors, rather than argue that schools must have a certain number of white students.

You cannot be what you cannot see.

Counselors, family, networks and opportunity are all affected by de facto segregation. It isn’t just as simple as “making sure they have good counselors” (since we all know that isn’t even the primary way kids determine their futures). It is improving outcomes for all schools and showing all kids what is possible — which btw, requires real concerted and thoughtful effort to have real economic and racial integration, not what has been straw manned here as “sprinkling white kids.”


C

Can you explain why you think the apparent desire to distribute white kids is a straw man argument? It really seems exactly what's going on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

So tell us, PP. What does it feel like to be a black person and to know that apparently the only hope for people of your color to get a decent education is to mix in some white kids? (Genuine question.) And what exactly do you think is happening in that case? Is it so the white kids can teach the black kids stuff in class, or so the entire class isn't full of disciplinary problems so the teacher has a fighting chance of keeping some control because you see white kids as better behaved, or so the white kids can show the black kids what doing homework is like, or so white kids can show black kids what it's like to sit down and do their work, or something else? And is it any white kid that would do, or it needs to be an UMC white kid for this idea to work?

If we can understand what the reason is that you think you need white kids in your classes for the black kids to be able to learn to read and write and count the way the white kids seem to be able to do, maybe we can come up with some other ideas that can help. But I'm honestly at a loss right now, and I imagine that other people probably are as well.

Oh, and I have a PhD and do not buy into that "definitive study" referenced above. Please give an actual reason, even if it's just a guess.

Glad you have a PhD.

The study above lays out that the factor most affecting student achievement for the positive is economic integration. It also looks.at race independently, and it is.more than fair to say that 50 years later we can see how those can intersect.

My theory, backed up by experience and studies? Concentrated poverty in schools harms student achievement, denies those students opportunities, and is u unjust and unjustified. This county's income segregation, which manifests itself in the racial composition, farms rates, and esol rates of the schools promotes that injustice. We have a moral obligation to change that.

It isn't "sprinkling white kids." It is working to dismantle the segregation of schools to improve achievement for all students.

Wow, just wow. Where did you grow up, go to k-12, and/or college?

There is no active racial “segregation of schools” by the government this decade or last, or the one before that” or before that. You go to your neighborhood school, at taxpayer expense, same as in every other country unless you are LD or merit test into special schools. You rent or buy a home, based on your household net income, which is based on your education, work experience, tax structures. You aren’t gifted a degree, you aren’t gifted a home.

“Improve achievement for all students” by slicing and dicing student performancers by race proxy or HHI proxy, is merely a hypothesis, an ideology, a theory, based on nothing thus far in any country or school district. For anyone here to state it as a given discredits themselves.

If mcps wants to run a $20B++ experiment (10 yrs*$2.6b annual budget) by creating a rainbow of colors in each of its 220 schools it had better announce that loud and clear asap. So people can get the hell out of this joke of a county.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder why it is not racist when the blacks think mixing black and white students could improve black students’ acadamic performance? Doesnt that indicate black students cannot learn in schools by themselves?

I wonder this too. I'd honestly feel so embarrassed to be black and know that my only option for a decent education was to escape the people of my own color or to at least bring in enough white people to dilute them.

I'm a woman in a technical field and it annoys me to no end when there are events like "math for girls" and "IT for girls", as if we're second class citizens who can't keep up with the real stuff. No thanks.

The relevant people for providing useful information about what it feels like to be [something - in this case, black] are: people who are [that thing].

Here is a list of people who do not provide useful information about what it feels like to be [that thing]: people who are not [that thing].

So tell us, PP. What does it feel like to be a black person and to know that apparently the only hope for people of your color to get a decent education is to mix in some white kids? (Genuine question.) And what exactly do you think is happening in that case? Is it so the white kids can teach the black kids stuff in class, or so the entire class isn't full of disciplinary problems so the teacher has a fighting chance of keeping some control because you see white kids as better behaved, or so the white kids can show the black kids what doing homework is like, or so white kids can show black kids what it's like to sit down and do their work, or something else? And is it any white kid that would do, or it needs to be an UMC white kid for this idea to work?

If we can understand what the reason is that you think you need white kids in your classes for the black kids to be able to learn to read and write and count the way the white kids seem to be able to do, maybe we can come up with some other ideas that can help. But I'm honestly at a loss right now, and I imagine that other people probably are as well.

Oh, and I have a PhD and do not buy into that "definitive study" referenced above. Please give an actual reason, even if it's just a guess.

Glad you have a PhD.

The study above lays out that the factor most affecting student achievement for the positive is economic integration. It also looks.at race independently, and it is.more than fair to say that 50 years later we can see how those can intersect.

My theory, backed up by experience and studies? Concentrated poverty in schools harms student achievement, denies those students opportunities, and is u unjust and unjustified. This county's income segregation, which manifests itself in the racial composition, farms rates, and esol rates of the schools promotes that injustice. We have a moral obligation to change that.

It isn't "sprinkling white kids." It is working to dismantle the segregation of schools to improve achievement for all students.

First, the study you are talking about is unscientific BS.

Second, you didn't answer the question. What is the actual REASON? As in, the cause. Not the effects and the correlations and observations and your feelings about our moral obligations.

What is the actual REASON why black people need white people in the class? The only thing resembling an actual reason in your ramblings was a vague reference to a lack of "opportunities" if there are not enough white kids in the class. What do you mean by that, specifically?

What study? If mcps is 40% underperformers and climbing, putting 20% of underperformers in each school does not change that. What is that?. C2.0 conceptual math garbage?

Mcps doesn’t even have a real k-8 curriculum in place since 2011 and they’re wasting time on this junk? Or is it just one unemployed SJW chirping one liners all week here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What study? If mcps is 40% underperformers and climbing, putting 20% of underperformers in each school does not change that. What is that?. C2.0 conceptual math garbage?

Mcps doesn’t even have a real k-8 curriculum in place since 2011 and they’re wasting time on this junk? Or is it just one unemployed SJW chirping one liners all week here?

The good thing about the term "SJW" is that it's a reliable indicator that there is no worthwhile information in the post.