Stay at TT or Retire to Suburbs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow did not expect opinions to be this divided. I swear this is not a troll post, but if you had over $1m in post tax HHI along with $20m+ liquid investments on top, would you view NYC private to be really worth the spend for 2 or 3 kids?

This thread is a mess!

Anyway, in hindsight, I can offer that NYC is a fantastic place to be a teenager. If I had to go back to square one knowing what I know, I would find a way to stay. Our kids went to TT privates, but they have friends whose educational experiences here ran the gamut.

That being said, I'm a product of the suburbs myself, and I had a wonderful childhood and an excellent public school education. The same doors that are open for my DCs were open for me. The key to OP's DCs' future is their affluence, not Princeton public versus Trinity or whatever.

Definitely one or two tangents on this thread but much better than some of the others bashing Trevor Day or some poor woman who was trying to move from SF...

It's just intriguing that opinions are this split on what I'd assume to be a very significant area of spend for any NY family in private and where presumably the experiences across families ought to be fairly universal (e.g. definitely better quality and better at developing critical thinking vs suburb publics but at a high price).

Have also heard from prominent college consultants that the brand of the HS matters less and that they do a better job packaging (at significant cost) than TT counselors. This could of course be them talking their book. Also presumably high income suburbs have plenty of parents spending on these consultants and the matriculation rate to elite colleges would seem to be worse if in fact 50% of the class is honors / AP track but comparable and perhaps less competitive if that number is closer to 20%

Just very confused about what seem to be orthogonal and somewhat contradicting viewpoints on something that should have a clear right or wrong answer.

I would say that from an educational standpoint alone, a TT private with a national reputation wins . . . but you don’t cede much ground by choosing one of the excellent public districts in the NYC suburbs. So what are you willing to sacrifice to stay in the city? That’s subjective. If you yearn for more space, a suburban lifestyle in general, or early retirement in OP’s case, then maybe you move. I would not and did not move, but plenty of others do and have few regrets about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bumping post up. Really want to know what everyone thinks! Does TT really provide a lot of marginal benefit if kids are tracking to top quartile of class academically?

It matters a TON, even at the better suburban schools. For example last year at Chatham NJ - a solid upper middle class town with good school system. It's often ranked in the top 10% of the state.
High property taxes but good schools is the trade off.

Last year class had about 300 graduates. Obviously not everyone is bound for 4 year college, but i think it's like 90%

1 matriculation into cornell, duke, princeton, yale, uChicago - that's it for the top schools. (they did have a vandy, ucla, berkley, georgetown, usc, unc)

so you have to grind hard as kid to get into a top school. and it's not like this is a piece of cake - the parents are professional and all aiming for the same schools.

if the goal is BC, Tuffs, Tulane, Indiana, Middlebury, NYU, Wake Forest - and those are good schools - then that's a different story - although still have to be in top 20% of the class.

College exmissions are MUCH harder in the burbs.

So I'm a bit conflicted here. I believe Princeton High School has better exmissions. 20 went to Princeton this year but supposedly only 4 to 5 without family affiliation at the university. 4 to Penn including 2 Wharton, 6 to Cornell and 7 to other Ivies, Duke or UChicago. So call it 37 Ivy+ exmits. I've heard anecdotally that only about 50 to 60 kids in a class of 300 are really gunning for the top colleges. So in this way it felt that getting into a good college would be actually LESS competitive than at a TT. Would be super curious to hear what the PHS alumn posting here has to say.

you are nuts if you think only 60 kids from Princeton high school are shooting for top schools.

Princeton is a top school district.

It’s brutally competitive I have heard.

Are more than 15% to 20% of suburb kids doing 8+ APs in any given class? If so this feels like a much higher percentage than when I was in HS (albeit my public HS was absolutely terrible). In terms of competition Princeton itself is not as bad as West Windsor-Plainsboro (65% East and South Asian) or Montgomery.

Yes it is. Probably sixty to seventy percent of class at Princeton is going to be “honors” level, pretty much the same as West Windsor. West Windsor is just more Asian. Both schools are top 5 percent public schools, but are under resourced compared to NY privates. There will be good teachers and smart class mates but 30 kids in a class, and college matriculation is just not at the same level. You could do public until 8th and then do Princeton Day or Lawrenceville.

So the 50 to 60 kids number came from a convo with a graduating senior from PHS but that perception might be skewed? The same student also had a perception that maybe half of his year who matriculated to Princeton were unaffiliated which sounded high. Also online it says Princeton High specifically has a 12 to 1 student teacher ratio. Feel like this ought to be accurate?

The honors and grade level kids will have large classes, my guess is 25 to30 kids unless it’s an esoteric elective. The teacher ratio is skewed by special ed and esl kids. Princeton has a relatively large Spanish speaking immigrant population, mostly from Central America (you can see if you look at school demographics — it’s about 9 percent hispanic) on one hand and then a number of kids of visiting faculty/ researchers from Asia and Europe will be academically advanced but still receive esl services. There is also a robust special ed program. These are two populations you don’t have on private school.

There are 400 kids in a grade. About 320 are going to four year college. I would guess at least 200 of those kids will be taking honors/ap, maybe more .

Did you not go to public school yourself? You seem very unfamiliar with how it works.

I am very unfamiliar with top suburbs. I went to a public school in a fairly rural and unacademic place. I was maybe 1 of just 5 or 6 people who cared at all about academics and it was easy to graduate valedictorian. Totally different environment than any of the good NJ districts.

I see. The biggest difference between public and private these days is the integration of special needs kids. In high school, they will be largely separate, but will account for a lot of resources. In elementary, there will often be multiple aides in a class assigned to specific kids in most classrooms since few classes are tracked at that age and there unfortunately not infrequently behavior issues.

I believe the ESL situation in Princeton is pretty unique given that one of the drivers is the university so it is larger than many other towns, but NJ generally has a lot of immigrants.

You can always start in public and see how your kids like it. There are benefits to going to a school where everyone lives nearby. It sounds like private would still be in the budget of needed and tuition is probably a little lower than NYC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bumping post up. Really want to know what everyone thinks! Does TT really provide a lot of marginal benefit if kids are tracking to top quartile of class academically?

It matters a TON, even at the better suburban schools. For example last year at Chatham NJ - a solid upper middle class town with good school system. It's often ranked in the top 10% of the state.
High property taxes but good schools is the trade off.

Last year class had about 300 graduates. Obviously not everyone is bound for 4 year college, but i think it's like 90%

1 matriculation into cornell, duke, princeton, yale, uChicago - that's it for the top schools. (they did have a vandy, ucla, berkley, georgetown, usc, unc)

so you have to grind hard as kid to get into a top school. and it's not like this is a piece of cake - the parents are professional and all aiming for the same schools.

if the goal is BC, Tuffs, Tulane, Indiana, Middlebury, NYU, Wake Forest - and those are good schools - then that's a different story - although still have to be in top 20% of the class.

College exmissions are MUCH harder in the burbs.

I don’t think it’s that much harder. You’re comparing apples to oranges. NYC TT schools are filled with hooked kids, Chatham PS is not. There’s no guarentee that you’re unhooked kid would have better results. I would be happy if my kid got into any of those colleges.

I don’t know why this argument is always made, as if ivy legacy parents or rich families only have kids in TTs. It’s just not true.

The difference between TT F U Money and suburban dentist rich is worlds apart. The ivies respond to one of the two

There are probably 2-3 kids per year in each TT who are development candidates. Trust me. BTDT. The TT detractors keep acting like that explains why 40% of the class goes to ivy league schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow did not expect opinions to be this divided. I swear this is not a troll post, but if you had over $1m in post tax HHI along with $20m+ liquid investments on top, would you view NYC private to be really worth the spend for 2 or 3 kids?

i think it's close to consensus that if you have that much money - private school is worth it.

the debate comes down to people of more modest means and/or great options like Stuy/BS/hunter

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow did not expect opinions to be this divided. I swear this is not a troll post, but if you had over $1m in post tax HHI along with $20m+ liquid investments on top, would you view NYC private to be really worth the spend for 2 or 3 kids?

This thread is a mess!

Anyway, in hindsight, I can offer that NYC is a fantastic place to be a teenager. If I had to go back to square one knowing what I know, I would find a way to stay. Our kids went to TT privates, but they have friends whose educational experiences here ran the gamut.

That being said, I'm a product of the suburbs myself, and I had a wonderful childhood and an excellent public school education. The same doors that are open for my DCs were open for me. The key to OP's DCs' future is their affluence, not Princeton public versus Trinity or whatever.

you pulled your kids out of TT to move to the burbs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bumping post up. Really want to know what everyone thinks! Does TT really provide a lot of marginal benefit if kids are tracking to top quartile of class academically?

It matters a TON, even at the better suburban schools. For example last year at Chatham NJ - a solid upper middle class town with good school system. It's often ranked in the top 10% of the state.
High property taxes but good schools is the trade off.

Last year class had about 300 graduates. Obviously not everyone is bound for 4 year college, but i think it's like 90%

1 matriculation into cornell, duke, princeton, yale, uChicago - that's it for the top schools. (they did have a vandy, ucla, berkley, georgetown, usc, unc)

so you have to grind hard as kid to get into a top school. and it's not like this is a piece of cake - the parents are professional and all aiming for the same schools.

if the goal is BC, Tuffs, Tulane, Indiana, Middlebury, NYU, Wake Forest - and those are good schools - then that's a different story - although still have to be in top 20% of the class.

College exmissions are MUCH harder in the burbs.

So I'm a bit conflicted here. I believe Princeton High School has better exmissions. 20 went to Princeton this year but supposedly only 4 to 5 without family affiliation at the university. 4 to Penn including 2 Wharton, 6 to Cornell and 7 to other Ivies, Duke or UChicago. So call it 37 Ivy+ exmits. I've heard anecdotally that only about 50 to 60 kids in a class of 300 are really gunning for the top colleges. So in this way it felt that getting into a good college would be actually LESS competitive than at a TT. Would be super curious to hear what the PHS alumn posting here has to say.

you are nuts if you think only 60 kids from Princeton high school are shooting for top schools.

Princeton is a top school district.

It’s brutally competitive I have heard.

Are more than 15% to 20% of suburb kids doing 8+ APs in any given class? If so this feels like a much higher percentage than when I was in HS (albeit my public HS was absolutely terrible). In terms of competition Princeton itself is not as bad as West Windsor-Plainsboro (65% East and South Asian) or Montgomery.

Yes it is. Probably sixty to seventy percent of class at Princeton is going to be “honors” level, pretty much the same as West Windsor. West Windsor is just more Asian. Both schools are top 5 percent public schools, but are under resourced compared to NY privates. There will be good teachers and smart class mates but 30 kids in a class, and college matriculation is just not at the same level. You could do public until 8th and then do Princeton Day or Lawrenceville.

So the 50 to 60 kids number came from a convo with a graduating senior from PHS but that perception might be skewed? The same student also had a perception that maybe half of his year who matriculated to Princeton were unaffiliated which sounded high. Also online it says Princeton High specifically has a 12 to 1 student teacher ratio. Feel like this ought to be accurate?

12 to 1 means that the average class size is 25-30 kids. the private schools all have 6 to 1 teacher ratio and the classes are 15 students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow did not expect opinions to be this divided. I swear this is not a troll post, but if you had over $1m in post tax HHI along with $20m+ liquid investments on top, would you view NYC private to be really worth the spend for 2 or 3 kids?

This thread is a mess!

Anyway, in hindsight, I can offer that NYC is a fantastic place to be a teenager. If I had to go back to square one knowing what I know, I would find a way to stay. Our kids went to TT privates, but they have friends whose educational experiences here ran the gamut.

That being said, I'm a product of the suburbs myself, and I had a wonderful childhood and an excellent public school education. The same doors that are open for my DCs were open for me. The key to OP's DCs' future is their affluence, not Princeton public versus Trinity or whatever.

Definitely one or two tangents on this thread but much better than some of the others bashing Trevor Day or some poor woman who was trying to move from SF...

It's just intriguing that opinions are this split on what I'd assume to be a very significant area of spend for any NY family in private and where presumably the experiences across families ought to be fairly universal (e.g. definitely better quality and better at developing critical thinking vs suburb publics but at a high price).

Have also heard from prominent college consultants that the brand of the HS matters less and that they do a better job packaging (at significant cost) than TT counselors. This could of course be them talking their book. Also presumably high income suburbs have plenty of parents spending on these consultants and the matriculation rate to elite colleges would seem to be worse if in fact 50% of the class is honors / AP track but comparable and perhaps less competitive if that number is closer to 20%

Just very confused about what seem to be orthogonal and somewhat contradicting viewpoints on something that should have a clear right or wrong answer.

how can there be a right or wrong answer - it's personal opinion. commute, space, cost, etc - everyone values it differently.

people with strong opinions can end up sounding like asses. hopefully there isn't too much thin skinned people here

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're currently at a TT and are debating whether to make a significant lifestyle shift to the suburbs. Kids are still young in LS so transition won't be too tough for them. We've fortunately saved enough and accumulated enough passive income to be able to retire, do passion projects, travel etc. and be fine for the rest of our lives. We'd also like to have additional kids which would be both cost and logistically prohibitive in the city. Both me and my spouse would prefer this move but the fact that we'd be giving up a great school and our kids' existing community makes the decision much more difficult. What would you do?

This thread has gone all over the place so going back to the original post. I'm trying to figure out your choices. It seems like you have assumed a binary between move to the suburbs and "retire" - I assume this is in part driven by having virtually no K-12 school expense by sending kids to public (I think we have established that you are targeting Chatham?). Or stay in the city and send kids to TT but that might be cost prohibitive. Just trying to understand why you can't stay in the city, keep kids at TT, and keep working to make that affordable. I know private school is very expensive but if you have enough to consider retiring, you clearly have a decent bankroll - life in Chatham, even with public school, is not free. Not trying to be a jerk - I'm truly curious.

As some have put more eloquently and kindly than others, suburbia is a different lifestyle. It has pros and cons. Everyone has a different perspective on these pros and cons. Note that most posting here likely live in NYC so generally have an inherent bias (though there are those who live in NYC who long for suburban life). I would spend time out there. Just "hang out" with people.

I grew up near Chatham. I now live in the city. I strongly considered moving back that way and sometimes wish I had, but for various reasons we stayed and are largely happy with our decision. But there were a lot of factors that impacted that decision, with the biggest one being that we both work in Manhattan and couldn't go to one income, so both of us commuting from suburbia was a non-starter. And we were fortunate to be able to do public for many years to make the math work a lot better. That being said, I still have lots of friends in various suburbs. I enjoy going to visit. The nature and tone of conversations is just different. Some find it better. Some find it worse. I think in general most hard core city people find it worse but based on their personal circumstances, it is not intolerable so the pros sometimes outweigh the cons. And sometimes they don't. But again, this is very specific to your finances, your kids, your needs.

Schools in Chatham are very good. They are not comparable to a TT. But your child will get a very good education and if they are meant to go to a good college, that opportunity will not be closed to them. Classes are bigger but not gigantic. There are plenty of parents who went to top schools. There are also kids who are less interested in learning. I assume the HS has tracking so for most academic classes that will be less of an issue. And it is good preparation for the real world. But again, it depends on your kid and their specific needs - TT schools in NYC do offer a lot.

Anyone who is 100% pro or 100% con is doing you no favors. They think they are simplifying things by giving you an answer but they are not. The world doesn't work that way.

the whole premise of the question makes litte sense to me. Is the difference in retiring really $2MM (over 13 years)? it just doesn't make sense for someone as affluent as the OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just adding a v quick data point: When we were kids, my parents - both native Manhattanites - made the decision to leave the city and raise my siblings and I in CT. We lived in Darien first, then New Canaan, before settling in Westport. My parents also kept an apartment in New York since they worked a lot.

Before leaving the city my sibs and I were in 2nd, 5th, and 6th grades with my brother and I at Trinity and my sister at Spence. We all went to a private day school in CT, then my sister and I went to boarding schools and my brother went to a private day school in new haven for high school.

We ended up at good colleges, have comfortable lives, etc. and, by and large, we enjoyed growing up in ct. The pros and cons of suburban life are pretty self-evident, though i’d be happy to describe in more detail. Still, to this day, my mom rues changing our primary residence from the city. She admits that one of her biggest regrets is raising us outside a major city (we lived in london for about a year and paris for a year and a half when i was a baby), and she tells us that any ancillary benefit of additional savings they received didn’t outweigh the loss of character she thinks that living in NYC builds in young people.

TBF, my parents didn’t need to work, they just enjoyed it. Also, we never enrolled in public schools, though we all played sports in darien and new canaan with tons of public school kids, who, frankly, are pretty much the same as private school kids in a lot of ways. But now that we have our own kids, we plan on staying in the city despite the temptation to move back to ct, where so so sooooo many of our friends have uprooted to.

sounds like generational wealth.

not really sure that applies to many of the people here.

but i understand your mom's point of view. the incremental benefit seems small if the parents don't have to work in the first place.

do your kids go to private school in nyc? would you send your kids to boarding school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bumping post up. Really want to know what everyone thinks! Does TT really provide a lot of marginal benefit if kids are tracking to top quartile of class academically?

It matters a TON, even at the better suburban schools. For example last year at Chatham NJ - a solid upper middle class town with good school system. It's often ranked in the top 10% of the state.
High property taxes but good schools is the trade off.

Last year class had about 300 graduates. Obviously not everyone is bound for 4 year college, but i think it's like 90%

1 matriculation into cornell, duke, princeton, yale, uChicago - that's it for the top schools. (they did have a vandy, ucla, berkley, georgetown, usc, unc)

so you have to grind hard as kid to get into a top school. and it's not like this is a piece of cake - the parents are professional and all aiming for the same schools.

if the goal is BC, Tuffs, Tulane, Indiana, Middlebury, NYU, Wake Forest - and those are good schools - then that's a different story - although still have to be in top 20% of the class.

College exmissions are MUCH harder in the burbs.

I don’t think it’s that much harder. You’re comparing apples to oranges. NYC TT schools are filled with hooked kids, Chatham PS is not. There’s no guarentee that you’re unhooked kid would have better results. I would be happy if my kid got into any of those colleges.

I don’t know why this argument is always made, as if ivy legacy parents or rich families only have kids in TTs. It’s just not true.

The difference between TT F U Money and suburban dentist rich is worlds apart. The ivies respond to one of the two

There are probably 2-3 kids per year in each TT who are development candidates. Trust me. BTDT. The TT detractors keep acting like that explains why 40% of the class goes to ivy league schools.

how much do you think the kids (parents) are donating each year to the TT school? rarely do you see big gifts on the annual reports - $100k max. maybe during capital raises they give more?

i think a safer bet is assuming like 10% of the class has some development potential - i doubt it's more than that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're currently at a TT and are debating whether to make a significant lifestyle shift to the suburbs. Kids are still young in LS so transition won't be too tough for them. We've fortunately saved enough and accumulated enough passive income to be able to retire, do passion projects, travel etc. and be fine for the rest of our lives. We'd also like to have additional kids which would be both cost and logistically prohibitive in the city. Both me and my spouse would prefer this move but the fact that we'd be giving up a great school and our kids' existing community makes the decision much more difficult. What would you do?

This thread has gone all over the place so going back to the original post. I'm trying to figure out your choices. It seems like you have assumed a binary between move to the suburbs and "retire" - I assume this is in part driven by having virtually no K-12 school expense by sending kids to public (I think we have established that you are targeting Chatham?). Or stay in the city and send kids to TT but that might be cost prohibitive. Just trying to understand why you can't stay in the city, keep kids at TT, and keep working to make that affordable. I know private school is very expensive but if you have enough to consider retiring, you clearly have a decent bankroll - life in Chatham, even with public school, is not free. Not trying to be a jerk - I'm truly curious.

As some have put more eloquently and kindly than others, suburbia is a different lifestyle. It has pros and cons. Everyone has a different perspective on these pros and cons. Note that most posting here likely live in NYC so generally have an inherent bias (though there are those who live in NYC who long for suburban life). I would spend time out there. Just "hang out" with people.

I grew up near Chatham. I now live in the city. I strongly considered moving back that way and sometimes wish I had, but for various reasons we stayed and are largely happy with our decision. But there were a lot of factors that impacted that decision, with the biggest one being that we both work in Manhattan and couldn't go to one income, so both of us commuting from suburbia was a non-starter. And we were fortunate to be able to do public for many years to make the math work a lot better. That being said, I still have lots of friends in various suburbs. I enjoy going to visit. The nature and tone of conversations is just different. Some find it better. Some find it worse. I think in general most hard core city people find it worse but based on their personal circumstances, it is not intolerable so the pros sometimes outweigh the cons. And sometimes they don't. But again, this is very specific to your finances, your kids, your needs.

Schools in Chatham are very good. They are not comparable to a TT. But your child will get a very good education and if they are meant to go to a good college, that opportunity will not be closed to them. Classes are bigger but not gigantic. There are plenty of parents who went to top schools. There are also kids who are less interested in learning. I assume the HS has tracking so for most academic classes that will be less of an issue. And it is good preparation for the real world. But again, it depends on your kid and their specific needs - TT schools in NYC do offer a lot.

Anyone who is 100% pro or 100% con is doing you no favors. They think they are simplifying things by giving you an answer but they are not. The world doesn't work that way.

the whole premise of the question makes litte sense to me. Is the difference in retiring really $2MM (over 13 years)? it just doesn't make sense for someone as affluent as the OP.

No it's not on its own cost prohibitive but $2M is also not nothing and when invested it's really 2x to 3x more than that. Also haven't felt that LS has really generated any value from a learning perspective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're currently at a TT and are debating whether to make a significant lifestyle shift to the suburbs. Kids are still young in LS so transition won't be too tough for them. We've fortunately saved enough and accumulated enough passive income to be able to retire, do passion projects, travel etc. and be fine for the rest of our lives. We'd also like to have additional kids which would be both cost and logistically prohibitive in the city. Both me and my spouse would prefer this move but the fact that we'd be giving up a great school and our kids' existing community makes the decision much more difficult. What would you do?

This thread has gone all over the place so going back to the original post. I'm trying to figure out your choices. It seems like you have assumed a binary between move to the suburbs and "retire" - I assume this is in part driven by having virtually no K-12 school expense by sending kids to public (I think we have established that you are targeting Chatham?). Or stay in the city and send kids to TT but that might be cost prohibitive. Just trying to understand why you can't stay in the city, keep kids at TT, and keep working to make that affordable. I know private school is very expensive but if you have enough to consider retiring, you clearly have a decent bankroll - life in Chatham, even with public school, is not free. Not trying to be a jerk - I'm truly curious.

As some have put more eloquently and kindly than others, suburbia is a different lifestyle. It has pros and cons. Everyone has a different perspective on these pros and cons. Note that most posting here likely live in NYC so generally have an inherent bias (though there are those who live in NYC who long for suburban life). I would spend time out there. Just "hang out" with people.

I grew up near Chatham. I now live in the city. I strongly considered moving back that way and sometimes wish I had, but for various reasons we stayed and are largely happy with our decision. But there were a lot of factors that impacted that decision, with the biggest one being that we both work in Manhattan and couldn't go to one income, so both of us commuting from suburbia was a non-starter. And we were fortunate to be able to do public for many years to make the math work a lot better. That being said, I still have lots of friends in various suburbs. I enjoy going to visit. The nature and tone of conversations is just different. Some find it better. Some find it worse. I think in general most hard core city people find it worse but based on their personal circumstances, it is not intolerable so the pros sometimes outweigh the cons. And sometimes they don't. But again, this is very specific to your finances, your kids, your needs.

Schools in Chatham are very good. They are not comparable to a TT. But your child will get a very good education and if they are meant to go to a good college, that opportunity will not be closed to them. Classes are bigger but not gigantic. There are plenty of parents who went to top schools. There are also kids who are less interested in learning. I assume the HS has tracking so for most academic classes that will be less of an issue. And it is good preparation for the real world. But again, it depends on your kid and their specific needs - TT schools in NYC do offer a lot.

Anyone who is 100% pro or 100% con is doing you no favors. They think they are simplifying things by giving you an answer but they are not. The world doesn't work that way.

the whole premise of the question makes litte sense to me. Is the difference in retiring really $2MM (over 13 years)? it just doesn't make sense for someone as affluent as the OP.

No it's not on its own cost prohibitive but $2M is also not nothing and when invested it's really 2x to 3x more than that. Also haven't felt that LS has really generated any value from a learning perspective.

We move from a wealthy public to private (in another city, not NY) in lower school. It is hard to explain how little freedom public schools give their teachers over curriculum, everything was scripted down to which book or resource was to be used for each unit. It leads to unhappy teachers. The push for equity led to our public dropping math and language arts tracking entirely in elementary school, it had previously started in first grade. Afterwards teachers had multiple reading and math groups within a class and each group only got a third of the classroom time and were expected to work independently for the remainder of the class (guess how well this worked at the elementary level). A kid with emotional issues tried to stab my dd in the leg with scissors in kindergarten. There was one short recess a day and pe only twice a week. The teachers used classroom time to walk around school grounds because the kids would get antsy from having to sit still for so long.

In sum, it’s easy to say that Lower school isn’t worth the money when you aren’t familiar with the alternative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're currently at a TT and are debating whether to make a significant lifestyle shift to the suburbs. Kids are still young in LS so transition won't be too tough for them. We've fortunately saved enough and accumulated enough passive income to be able to retire, do passion projects, travel etc. and be fine for the rest of our lives. We'd also like to have additional kids which would be both cost and logistically prohibitive in the city. Both me and my spouse would prefer this move but the fact that we'd be giving up a great school and our kids' existing community makes the decision much more difficult. What would you do?

This thread has gone all over the place so going back to the original post. I'm trying to figure out your choices. It seems like you have assumed a binary between move to the suburbs and "retire" - I assume this is in part driven by having virtually no K-12 school expense by sending kids to public (I think we have established that you are targeting Chatham?). Or stay in the city and send kids to TT but that might be cost prohibitive. Just trying to understand why you can't stay in the city, keep kids at TT, and keep working to make that affordable. I know private school is very expensive but if you have enough to consider retiring, you clearly have a decent bankroll - life in Chatham, even with public school, is not free. Not trying to be a jerk - I'm truly curious.

As some have put more eloquently and kindly than others, suburbia is a different lifestyle. It has pros and cons. Everyone has a different perspective on these pros and cons. Note that most posting here likely live in NYC so generally have an inherent bias (though there are those who live in NYC who long for suburban life). I would spend time out there. Just "hang out" with people.

I grew up near Chatham. I now live in the city. I strongly considered moving back that way and sometimes wish I had, but for various reasons we stayed and are largely happy with our decision. But there were a lot of factors that impacted that decision, with the biggest one being that we both work in Manhattan and couldn't go to one income, so both of us commuting from suburbia was a non-starter. And we were fortunate to be able to do public for many years to make the math work a lot better. That being said, I still have lots of friends in various suburbs. I enjoy going to visit. The nature and tone of conversations is just different. Some find it better. Some find it worse. I think in general most hard core city people find it worse but based on their personal circumstances, it is not intolerable so the pros sometimes outweigh the cons. And sometimes they don't. But again, this is very specific to your finances, your kids, your needs.

Schools in Chatham are very good. They are not comparable to a TT. But your child will get a very good education and if they are meant to go to a good college, that opportunity will not be closed to them. Classes are bigger but not gigantic. There are plenty of parents who went to top schools. There are also kids who are less interested in learning. I assume the HS has tracking so for most academic classes that will be less of an issue. And it is good preparation for the real world. But again, it depends on your kid and their specific needs - TT schools in NYC do offer a lot.

Anyone who is 100% pro or 100% con is doing you no favors. They think they are simplifying things by giving you an answer but they are not. The world doesn't work that way.

the whole premise of the question makes litte sense to me. Is the difference in retiring really $2MM (over 13 years)? it just doesn't make sense for someone as affluent as the OP.

No it's not on its own cost prohibitive but $2M is also not nothing and when invested it's really 2x to 3x more than that. Also haven't felt that LS has really generated any value from a learning perspective.

We move from a wealthy public to private (in another city, not NY) in lower school. It is hard to explain how little freedom public schools give their teachers over curriculum, everything was scripted down to which book or resource was to be used for each unit. It leads to unhappy teachers. The push for equity led to our public dropping math and language arts tracking entirely in elementary school, it had previously started in first grade. Afterwards teachers had multiple reading and math groups within a class and each group only got a third of the classroom time and were expected to work independently for the remainder of the class (guess how well this worked at the elementary level). A kid with emotional issues tried to stab my dd in the leg with scissors in kindergarten. There was one short recess a day and pe only twice a week. The teachers used classroom time to walk around school grounds because the kids would get antsy from having to sit still for so long.

In sum, it’s easy to say that Lower school isn’t worth the money when you aren’t familiar with the alternative.

This was a school ranked 10/10 on Best Schools, btw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're currently at a TT and are debating whether to make a significant lifestyle shift to the suburbs. Kids are still young in LS so transition won't be too tough for them. We've fortunately saved enough and accumulated enough passive income to be able to retire, do passion projects, travel etc. and be fine for the rest of our lives. We'd also like to have additional kids which would be both cost and logistically prohibitive in the city. Both me and my spouse would prefer this move but the fact that we'd be giving up a great school and our kids' existing community makes the decision much more difficult. What would you do?

This thread has gone all over the place so going back to the original post. I'm trying to figure out your choices. It seems like you have assumed a binary between move to the suburbs and "retire" - I assume this is in part driven by having virtually no K-12 school expense by sending kids to public (I think we have established that you are targeting Chatham?). Or stay in the city and send kids to TT but that might be cost prohibitive. Just trying to understand why you can't stay in the city, keep kids at TT, and keep working to make that affordable. I know private school is very expensive but if you have enough to consider retiring, you clearly have a decent bankroll - life in Chatham, even with public school, is not free. Not trying to be a jerk - I'm truly curious.

As some have put more eloquently and kindly than others, suburbia is a different lifestyle. It has pros and cons. Everyone has a different perspective on these pros and cons. Note that most posting here likely live in NYC so generally have an inherent bias (though there are those who live in NYC who long for suburban life). I would spend time out there. Just "hang out" with people.

I grew up near Chatham. I now live in the city. I strongly considered moving back that way and sometimes wish I had, but for various reasons we stayed and are largely happy with our decision. But there were a lot of factors that impacted that decision, with the biggest one being that we both work in Manhattan and couldn't go to one income, so both of us commuting from suburbia was a non-starter. And we were fortunate to be able to do public for many years to make the math work a lot better. That being said, I still have lots of friends in various suburbs. I enjoy going to visit. The nature and tone of conversations is just different. Some find it better. Some find it worse. I think in general most hard core city people find it worse but based on their personal circumstances, it is not intolerable so the pros sometimes outweigh the cons. And sometimes they don't. But again, this is very specific to your finances, your kids, your needs.

Schools in Chatham are very good. They are not comparable to a TT. But your child will get a very good education and if they are meant to go to a good college, that opportunity will not be closed to them. Classes are bigger but not gigantic. There are plenty of parents who went to top schools. There are also kids who are less interested in learning. I assume the HS has tracking so for most academic classes that will be less of an issue. And it is good preparation for the real world. But again, it depends on your kid and their specific needs - TT schools in NYC do offer a lot.

Anyone who is 100% pro or 100% con is doing you no favors. They think they are simplifying things by giving you an answer but they are not. The world doesn't work that way.

the whole premise of the question makes litte sense to me. Is the difference in retiring really $2MM (over 13 years)? it just doesn't make sense for someone as affluent as the OP.

No it's not on its own cost prohibitive but $2M is also not nothing and when invested it's really 2x to 3x more than that. Also haven't felt that LS has really generated any value from a learning perspective.

We move from a wealthy public to private (in another city, not NY) in lower school. It is hard to explain how little freedom public schools give their teachers over curriculum, everything was scripted down to which book or resource was to be used for each unit. It leads to unhappy teachers. The push for equity led to our public dropping math and language arts tracking entirely in elementary school, it had previously started in first grade. Afterwards teachers had multiple reading and math groups within a class and each group only got a third of the classroom time and were expected to work independently for the remainder of the class (guess how well this worked at the elementary level). A kid with emotional issues tried to stab my dd in the leg with scissors in kindergarten. There was one short recess a day and pe only twice a week. The teachers used classroom time to walk around school grounds because the kids would get antsy from having to sit still for so long.

In sum, it’s easy to say that Lower school isn’t worth the money when you aren’t familiar with the alternative.

Sorry about your awful experience and agree with your high level theme of "know the alternatives." Though feel compelled to present a sunnier experience. My kids went to public then switched to private. To your point, public was a mixed bag, though for us, the good outweighed the bad. Some teachers were largely collecting a pay check - none were awful but a few were not great. We found the biggest issue was that the largest portion of their attention was on the difficult kids. The second largest portion of attention was on the superstars. But if your kid was getting a 90 but capable of a 94 (so very smart but not top of class), they couldn't be bothered pushing them, because they were doing good enough. For one of my kids, there were very few difficult kids in their grade, which made life easier. And that was my academic superstar, so even better. For my smart but not as smart kid, there were also more difficult kids, so we had more ups and downs.

That being said, we also had public school teachers who were innovative, creative, thought outside the box, and found creative ways to keep very academically diverse classes all engaged and motivated. And this is what kept us in public for as long as we stayed, as we were fortunate that the good outweighed the bad. But I agree with the person I am responding to that this is often not the case. So you have to do your homework.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're currently at a TT and are debating whether to make a significant lifestyle shift to the suburbs. Kids are still young in LS so transition won't be too tough for them. We've fortunately saved enough and accumulated enough passive income to be able to retire, do passion projects, travel etc. and be fine for the rest of our lives. We'd also like to have additional kids which would be both cost and logistically prohibitive in the city. Both me and my spouse would prefer this move but the fact that we'd be giving up a great school and our kids' existing community makes the decision much more difficult. What would you do?

This thread has gone all over the place so going back to the original post. I'm trying to figure out your choices. It seems like you have assumed a binary between move to the suburbs and "retire" - I assume this is in part driven by having virtually no K-12 school expense by sending kids to public (I think we have established that you are targeting Chatham?). Or stay in the city and send kids to TT but that might be cost prohibitive. Just trying to understand why you can't stay in the city, keep kids at TT, and keep working to make that affordable. I know private school is very expensive but if you have enough to consider retiring, you clearly have a decent bankroll - life in Chatham, even with public school, is not free. Not trying to be a jerk - I'm truly curious.

As some have put more eloquently and kindly than others, suburbia is a different lifestyle. It has pros and cons. Everyone has a different perspective on these pros and cons. Note that most posting here likely live in NYC so generally have an inherent bias (though there are those who live in NYC who long for suburban life). I would spend time out there. Just "hang out" with people.

I grew up near Chatham. I now live in the city. I strongly considered moving back that way and sometimes wish I had, but for various reasons we stayed and are largely happy with our decision. But there were a lot of factors that impacted that decision, with the biggest one being that we both work in Manhattan and couldn't go to one income, so both of us commuting from suburbia was a non-starter. And we were fortunate to be able to do public for many years to make the math work a lot better. That being said, I still have lots of friends in various suburbs. I enjoy going to visit. The nature and tone of conversations is just different. Some find it better. Some find it worse. I think in general most hard core city people find it worse but based on their personal circumstances, it is not intolerable so the pros sometimes outweigh the cons. And sometimes they don't. But again, this is very specific to your finances, your kids, your needs.

Schools in Chatham are very good. They are not comparable to a TT. But your child will get a very good education and if they are meant to go to a good college, that opportunity will not be closed to them. Classes are bigger but not gigantic. There are plenty of parents who went to top schools. There are also kids who are less interested in learning. I assume the HS has tracking so for most academic classes that will be less of an issue. And it is good preparation for the real world. But again, it depends on your kid and their specific needs - TT schools in NYC do offer a lot.

Anyone who is 100% pro or 100% con is doing you no favors. They think they are simplifying things by giving you an answer but they are not. The world doesn't work that way.

the whole premise of the question makes litte sense to me. Is the difference in retiring really $2MM (over 13 years)? it just doesn't make sense for someone as affluent as the OP.

No it's not on its own cost prohibitive but $2M is also not nothing and when invested it's really 2x to 3x more than that. Also haven't felt that LS has really generated any value from a learning perspective.

it's 150k a year, not all at once. So your compounding doesn't actually work like you think it does.