Being a working parent sucks

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t know that kids are better off or happier not having to go to aftercare or staying until closing. Avoiding that never entered my decision making, which,’along with sharing the drop off and pick up load, led to both of us being able to have the careers we wanted.

???

Shouldn’t you know if your OWN kids are better off or happier avoiding aftercare? I won’t speak for everyone’s children, but mine absolutely HATED aftercare and it stressed them out horribly.

PP to whom You are responding. My kids loved aftercare and camp. Their aftercare took care of all homework so when they got home our evenings weren’t filled with a to do list. They taught my kids to sew and all kinds of other things. Plus my kids got to play with their friends. They had plenty of time to play with each other outside of those hours. They fed my kids a ln early dinner though they’d eat again at home. They also did camp on school days off so I never scrambled for care on teacher work days. And they did a summer camp so when they were little and didn’t like a lot of change, they could just stay in their regular childcare. It was a good gig. Went from age 3 to 13.

Taught to sew and fed dinner? Where is this mythical place?

+1 where was this??

Silver Spring.

So a private company?

Isn't most aftercare private?

NP no. Most aftercare is ran through the county out of the public schools. It's very similar to lord of the flies. About 100 K-5 mixed together with only 2 teachers. Kids running everywhere, bullying, the 5th graders were teaching the K about sexual things. It was awful and I got my kids out as soon as I realized. Ours is free for low income kids, so it's heavily used, overcrowded and the county doesn't fund it enough. My kids went to daycare and it was nothing like this at all. Complete chaos.

It is RUN through the county.
You can’t expect everyone to run their lives based on your poor daycare experience. Most people can have the expectation that they will have access through searching to some good options

NP. Most people can't uproot their lives for aftercare. We live in a "good" neighborhood with a "good" school but my kids also hate aftercare with a passion. It was causing my 2nd grader complete meltdowns. I can't move and pull my kids out of the school they love because aftercare sucks. There are no other options that wouldn't require me to pick my kids up and deliver them to aftercare somewhere else which I could not do with my job. This is one of many reason I am still working part-time only.

ok but that's a very specific issue that you have. It's not a universal truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our income is 225/150 from DH/DW respectively. We don't have any outside help because DW owns her own company and works 20hrs a week. All during school hours or if she has to run errands in the daytime she works after the kids is asleep. We have a 6 yo, she does pick up and drop off and driving to sports.

Hats off to you parents who juggle so much. Our delicate balance would be thrown off track if we had more than one or if DW had a "real job" ‐‐ not to minimize her education or professional sucess, you know what i mean

You don’t have to say “real job.” You can say full-time job and it would be more accurate.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t know that kids are better off or happier not having to go to aftercare or staying until closing. Avoiding that never entered my decision making, which,’along with sharing the drop off and pick up load, led to both of us being able to have the careers we wanted.

???

Shouldn’t you know if your OWN kids are better off or happier avoiding aftercare? I won’t speak for everyone’s children, but mine absolutely HATED aftercare and it stressed them out horribly.

PP to whom You are responding. My kids loved aftercare and camp. Their aftercare took care of all homework so when they got home our evenings weren’t filled with a to do list. They taught my kids to sew and all kinds of other things. Plus my kids got to play with their friends. They had plenty of time to play with each other outside of those hours. They fed my kids a ln early dinner though they’d eat again at home. They also did camp on school days off so I never scrambled for care on teacher work days. And they did a summer camp so when they were little and didn’t like a lot of change, they could just stay in their regular childcare. It was a good gig. Went from age 3 to 13.

Taught to sew and fed dinner? Where is this mythical place?

+1 where was this??

Silver Spring.

So a private company?

Isn't most aftercare private?

NP no. Most aftercare is ran through the county out of the public schools. It's very similar to lord of the flies. About 100 K-5 mixed together with only 2 teachers. Kids running everywhere, bullying, the 5th graders were teaching the K about sexual things. It was awful and I got my kids out as soon as I realized. Ours is free for low income kids, so it's heavily used, overcrowded and the county doesn't fund it enough. My kids went to daycare and it was nothing like this at all. Complete chaos.

It is RUN through the county.
You can’t expect everyone to run their lives based on your poor daycare experience. Most people can have the expectation that they will have access through searching to some good options

NP. Most people can't uproot their lives for aftercare. We live in a "good" neighborhood with a "good" school but my kids also hate aftercare with a passion. It was causing my 2nd grader complete meltdowns. I can't move and pull my kids out of the school they love because aftercare sucks. There are no other options that wouldn't require me to pick my kids up and deliver them to aftercare somewhere else which I could not do with my job. This is one of many reason I am still working part-time only.

ok but that's a very specific issue that you have. It's not a universal truth.

NP. Of course it’s not a universal truth. Just like it’s not a universal truth that aftercare is fun and enriching. It’s dependent upon 1) the program, 2) the teachers/caregivers, 3) the other kids in the program, 4) your own child, and 5) how your child interacts with and responds to the first three.

My kids did NOT have friends in aftercare. Aftercare was mainly filled with older, wild kids with potty mouths and checked-out, lazy adults. So like PP, I went part-time so my kids didn’t have to deal with that stress at the end of a long day. It was a struggle to get my employer on board and it was a struggle financially, but my kids were so much happier it was well worth it.

If your kids love aftercare, great! If they hate it, really consider what, if anything, you can change.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We have a 4.5 year-old and a baby just over 1. Baby in full day daycare and the older one has done DCPS PreK + aftercare for the past two years which he loved. Now in summer camp + aftercare, though he deeply misses all his school friends (who scatter to the wind during the summer).

Two kids is wild. One of us is home by 545 with the kids, dinner, play, bath time, etc. Our oldest kid won't go to bed at 715pm anymore and is stretching out bed time + longer daylight hours. We don't get a free moment until 9pm; it's killing us. Have a long list of babysitters and we rotate through them, it's been nice to get out of the house in the evening once the baby is down for the night.

Strongly considering an au pair. We can afford it ($250K x 2 jobs). Would be super helpful for getting kids ready in the AM, picking up our oldest kid from school/camp, packing the lunch box, etc.

Get a real nanny. At your income you can afford it and sounds like you really need the help

Why get a "real nanny"? I'd need to hire a top-notch nanny for her to cover everything my baby does in his Montessori daycare (with instructors who have college degrees). So probably at least $70K after-tax to get a high quality nanny. Doesn't seem worth it.

Literally only need an extra set of hands for 1 hour in the morning and 3 hours in the evening. Plus have an au pair do sporadic kid stuff - laundry, lunch boxes, straightening up their rooms - throughout the week. I don't think an au pair would even hit 40 hours with us in a week.

Getting a real nanny is 100% worth it. I wouldn't do it in place of a Montessori school. As a working mom, having assistance with laundry, dishes, lunch boxes, meal prep, and transportation is incredibly beneficial. I pay a nanny an above-market rate for a guaranteed 20 hours a week. While costly, it makes a significant difference in managing my job, running our household effectively, finding time to exercise, and enabling my kids to participate in competitive sports that prepare them to play in high school.

So you have a part-time Alice.

That definitely is the way to do it, but how much do you pay for this above market staff? I’m gonna guess it’s probably close to 50,000 right? Because going part time for them also means less ability to take another job, it’s not like they can cover two kids after school, or there’s a baby who only needs care from the morning.

You're in the ballpark on cost. Our nanny is happy with the arrangement; she's single, and her child is out of the house, so the amount we pay is enough. She uses her mornings for her hobbies and her own housework and occasionally takes other jobs.

You must live in the exurbs, because her in suburbs a former mom would not be looking for part time work like this. They would have either a breadwinner or a real job.

How is this woman going to retire?

She plans to move back to her home country. She's not American and doesn't want to work 40 hours a week. We don't live in the exurbs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:SAH isn’t exactly fun all the time, either. Even most SAHM who can afford it still send their kids to summer camps, because there isn’t that much to do when all the other kids are in camp.
The years that they need summer camps with aftercare are not so many, so most people just figure out something during that time.

I’m a teacher so I’m home in the summer. I send my two younger kids to camp and daycare (with a reduced schedule) so I can have 25 hours per week to run the household in peace and quiet.

If it were the 80s, I could just ban them from the house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 4.5 year-old and a baby just over 1. Baby in full day daycare and the older one has done DCPS PreK + aftercare for the past two years which he loved. Now in summer camp + aftercare, though he deeply misses all his school friends (who scatter to the wind during the summer).

Two kids is wild. One of us is home by 545 with the kids, dinner, play, bath time, etc. Our oldest kid won't go to bed at 715pm anymore and is stretching out bed time + longer daylight hours. We don't get a free moment until 9pm; it's killing us. Have a long list of babysitters and we rotate through them, it's been nice to get out of the house in the evening once the baby is down for the night.

Strongly considering an au pair. We can afford it ($250K x 2 jobs). Would be super helpful for getting kids ready in the AM, picking up our oldest kid from school/camp, packing the lunch box, etc.

Get a real nanny. At your income you can afford it and sounds like you really need the help

Why get a "real nanny"? I'd need to hire a top-notch nanny for her to cover everything my baby does in his Montessori daycare (with instructors who have college degrees). So probably at least $70K after-tax to get a high quality nanny. Doesn't seem worth it.

Literally only need an extra set of hands for 1 hour in the morning and 3 hours in the evening. Plus have an au pair do sporadic kid stuff - laundry, lunch boxes, straightening up their rooms - throughout the week. I don't think an au pair would even hit 40 hours with us in a week.

You do you. I'm not a fan of kids taking care of kids and especially babies.

What are you talking about? Our au pair is 26 with a college degree. She's using her au pair year to perfect her English so she can get a job with a multinational company when she goes home. She's absolutely an adult and is fantastic.

At our aftercare a parent came to pick up their kid with their leashed dog. Apparently a kid asked to pet the dog and the adult said okay. Then the dog lunged and bit the child in the face. The bleeding kid ran to the bathroom. The parent with the dog left. The aftercare staff saw *none* of this, even though all the kids were aware and there was a big commotion. When the parent of the bleeding kid showed up for pickup the staff still had no idea. The kid ended up needing several stitches on his face. It was a huge deal at our school.

I don't even consider aftercare to be childcare--no one actually watches or cares for the kids. It's basically a fee you pay so your child can hang at the school until you get off work. We're much happier with our au pair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 4.5 year-old and a baby just over 1. Baby in full day daycare and the older one has done DCPS PreK + aftercare for the past two years which he loved. Now in summer camp + aftercare, though he deeply misses all his school friends (who scatter to the wind during the summer).

Two kids is wild. One of us is home by 545 with the kids, dinner, play, bath time, etc. Our oldest kid won't go to bed at 715pm anymore and is stretching out bed time + longer daylight hours. We don't get a free moment until 9pm; it's killing us. Have a long list of babysitters and we rotate through them, it's been nice to get out of the house in the evening once the baby is down for the night.

Strongly considering an au pair. We can afford it ($250K x 2 jobs). Would be super helpful for getting kids ready in the AM, picking up our oldest kid from school/camp, packing the lunch box, etc.

Get a real nanny. At your income you can afford it and sounds like you really need the help

Why get a "real nanny"? I'd need to hire a top-notch nanny for her to cover everything my baby does in his Montessori daycare (with instructors who have college degrees). So probably at least $70K after-tax to get a high quality nanny. Doesn't seem worth it.

Literally only need an extra set of hands for 1 hour in the morning and 3 hours in the evening. Plus have an au pair do sporadic kid stuff - laundry, lunch boxes, straightening up their rooms - throughout the week. I don't think an au pair would even hit 40 hours with us in a week.

Getting a real nanny is 100% worth it. I wouldn't do it in place of a Montessori school. As a working mom, having assistance with laundry, dishes, lunch boxes, meal prep, and transportation is incredibly beneficial. I pay a nanny an above-market rate for a guaranteed 20 hours a week. While costly, it makes a significant difference in managing my job, running our household effectively, finding time to exercise, and enabling my kids to participate in competitive sports that prepare them to play in high school.

So you have a part-time Alice.

That definitely is the way to do it, but how much do you pay for this above market staff? I’m gonna guess it’s probably close to 50,000 right? Because going part time for them also means less ability to take another job, it’s not like they can cover two kids after school, or there’s a baby who only needs care from the morning.

You're in the ballpark on cost. Our nanny is happy with the arrangement; she's single, and her child is out of the house, so the amount we pay is enough. She uses her mornings for her hobbies and her own housework and occasionally takes other jobs.

You must live in the exurbs, because her in suburbs a former mom would not be looking for part time work like this. They would have either a breadwinner or a real job.

How is this woman going to retire?

She plans to move back to her home country. She's not American and doesn't want to work 40 hours a week. We don't live in the exurbs.

As soon as I posted I knew you were paying someone under the table who was not planning to stay in America. That’s why you can get this deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:SAH isn’t exactly fun all the time, either. Even most SAHM who can afford it still send their kids to summer camps, because there isn’t that much to do when all the other kids are in camp.
The years that they need summer camps with aftercare are not so many, so most people just figure out something during that time.

SAH can be draining especially in the diaper years, but you have complete control of your schedule, nothing else to think about but your own kids and your own homes, and no commute.

Once they go to school, a few hours of camp, it’s a freaking dream.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 4.5 year-old and a baby just over 1. Baby in full day daycare and the older one has done DCPS PreK + aftercare for the past two years which he loved. Now in summer camp + aftercare, though he deeply misses all his school friends (who scatter to the wind during the summer).

Two kids is wild. One of us is home by 545 with the kids, dinner, play, bath time, etc. Our oldest kid won't go to bed at 715pm anymore and is stretching out bed time + longer daylight hours. We don't get a free moment until 9pm; it's killing us. Have a long list of babysitters and we rotate through them, it's been nice to get out of the house in the evening once the baby is down for the night.

Strongly considering an au pair. We can afford it ($250K x 2 jobs). Would be super helpful for getting kids ready in the AM, picking up our oldest kid from school/camp, packing the lunch box, etc.

Get a real nanny. At your income you can afford it and sounds like you really need the help

Why get a "real nanny"? I'd need to hire a top-notch nanny for her to cover everything my baby does in his Montessori daycare (with instructors who have college degrees). So probably at least $70K after-tax to get a high quality nanny. Doesn't seem worth it.

Literally only need an extra set of hands for 1 hour in the morning and 3 hours in the evening. Plus have an au pair do sporadic kid stuff - laundry, lunch boxes, straightening up their rooms - throughout the week. I don't think an au pair would even hit 40 hours with us in a week.

You do you. I'm not a fan of kids taking care of kids and especially babies.

What are you talking about? Our au pair is 26 with a college degree. She's using her au pair year to perfect her English so she can get a job with a multinational company when she goes home. She's absolutely an adult and is fantastic.

At our aftercare a parent came to pick up their kid with their leashed dog. Apparently a kid asked to pet the dog and the adult said okay. Then the dog lunged and bit the child in the face. The bleeding kid ran to the bathroom. The parent with the dog left. The aftercare staff saw *none* of this, even though all the kids were aware and there was a big commotion. When the parent of the bleeding kid showed up for pickup the staff still had no idea. The kid ended up needing several stitches on his face. It was a huge deal at our school.

I don't even consider aftercare to be childcare--no one actually watches or cares for the kids. It's basically a fee you pay so your child can hang at the school until you get off work. We're much happier with our au pair.

Sounds like it worked out for you.
Most au pairs are teenagers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our income is 225/150 from DH/DW respectively. We don't have any outside help because DW owns her own company and works 20hrs a week. All during school hours or if she has to run errands in the daytime she works after the kids is asleep. We have a 6 yo, she does pick up and drop off and driving to sports.

Hats off to you parents who juggle so much. Our delicate balance would be thrown off track if we had more than one or if DW had a "real job" ‐‐ not to minimize her education or professional sucess, you know what i mean

You don’t have to say “real job.” You can say full-time job and it would be more accurate.

Ok i hear you. But sometimes DW is like i can't believe I'm getting paid for this and says her job is unreal bc she's like a SAHP

[Anonymous]

Why is it so hard to admit that daycare/aftercare is a lesser experience for kids than sahp, barring strange outliers? It doesn’t mean it’s a *bad* experience or that you’re a bad parent. It’s just reality.

I couldn’t breastfeed my children. I acknowledge the reality that this was a negative for them. They lost out on bonding and lifelong health benefits. But it was out of my hands and there was nothing more I could do.

I couldn’t have a vaginal delivery. Again, a lesser experience for them in terms of future health, etc.

It’s magical thinking to not admit some scenarios are simply better for kids. I personally think if we want society to start improving childcare we need to start with a shared understanding of what benefits infants and toddlers, not corporations or bank accounts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is it so hard to admit that daycare/aftercare is a lesser experience for kids than sahp, barring strange outliers? It doesn’t mean it’s a *bad* experience or that you’re a bad parent. It’s just reality.

I couldn’t breastfeed my children. I acknowledge the reality that this was a negative for them. They lost out on bonding and lifelong health benefits. But it was out of my hands and there was nothing more I could do.

I couldn’t have a vaginal delivery. Again, a lesser experience for them in terms of future health, etc.

It’s magical thinking to not admit some scenarios are simply better for kids. I personally think if we want society to start improving childcare we need to start with a shared understanding of what benefits infants and toddlers, not corporations or bank accounts.

+100

How are we ever going to get better maternity leave policies or a structural shift in work/life balance culture in the US when we have so many passionate advocates for “daycare is awesome! Putting a 3 month old infant in 10 hour care is just as good if not better than the infant being taken care of by parents! All that socialization!” ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know that kids are better off or happier not having to go to aftercare or staying until closing. Avoiding that never entered my decision making, which,’along with sharing the drop off and pick up load, led to both of us being able to have the careers we wanted.

So your kids have been staying in school and camp from 9-6 through age 6-13?

YES DUMMY


IM NOT WHITE AND PRIVILEGED LIKE YOURSELF THAT WOULD HAVE AFFORDED ME A BETTER CAREER

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a 4.5 year-old and a baby just over 1. Baby in full day daycare and the older one has done DCPS PreK + aftercare for the past two years which he loved. Now in summer camp + aftercare, though he deeply misses all his school friends (who scatter to the wind during the summer).

Two kids is wild. One of us is home by 545 with the kids, dinner, play, bath time, etc. Our oldest kid won't go to bed at 715pm anymore and is stretching out bed time + longer daylight hours. We don't get a free moment until 9pm; it's killing us. Have a long list of babysitters and we rotate through them, it's been nice to get out of the house in the evening once the baby is down for the night.

Strongly considering an au pair. We can afford it ($250K x 2 jobs). Would be super helpful for getting kids ready in the AM, picking up our oldest kid from school/camp, packing the lunch box, etc.

Get a real nanny. At your income you can afford it and sounds like you really need the help

Why get a "real nanny"? I'd need to hire a top-notch nanny for her to cover everything my baby does in his Montessori daycare (with instructors who have college degrees). So probably at least $70K after-tax to get a high quality nanny. Doesn't seem worth it.

Literally only need an extra set of hands for 1 hour in the morning and 3 hours in the evening. Plus have an au pair do sporadic kid stuff - laundry, lunch boxes, straightening up their rooms - throughout the week. I don't think an au pair would even hit 40 hours with us in a week.

You do you. I'm not a fan of kids taking care of kids and especially babies.

What are you talking about? Our au pair is 26 with a college degree. She's using her au pair year to perfect her English so she can get a job with a multinational company when she goes home. She's absolutely an adult and is fantastic.

At our aftercare a parent came to pick up their kid with their leashed dog. Apparently a kid asked to pet the dog and the adult said okay. Then the dog lunged and bit the child in the face. The bleeding kid ran to the bathroom. The parent with the dog left. The aftercare staff saw *none* of this, even though all the kids were aware and there was a big commotion. When the parent of the bleeding kid showed up for pickup the staff still had no idea. The kid ended up needing several stitches on his face. It was a huge deal at our school.

I don't even consider aftercare to be childcare--no one actually watches or cares for the kids. It's basically a fee you pay so your child can hang at the school until you get off work. We're much happier with our au pair.

Sounds like it worked out for you.
Most au pairs are teenagers

I disagree. Most are in their 20s. The program is for 18-26 yos.

We've never had an au pair under the age of 21 as we don't want to worry about under age drinking laws. Similar for other families we know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is it so hard to admit that daycare/aftercare is a lesser experience for kids than sahp, barring strange outliers? It doesn’t mean it’s a *bad* experience or that you’re a bad parent. It’s just reality.

I couldn’t breastfeed my children. I acknowledge the reality that this was a negative for them. They lost out on bonding and lifelong health benefits. But it was out of my hands and there was nothing more I could do.

I couldn’t have a vaginal delivery. Again, a lesser experience for them in terms of future health, etc.

It’s magical thinking to not admit some scenarios are simply better for kids. I personally think if we want society to start improving childcare we need to start with a shared understanding of what benefits infants and toddlers, not corporations or bank accounts.

When you look at the sibling studies and randomized trials for breastfeeding, there's barely anything there, and nothing in terms of lifelong health benefits. The big effect sizes are entirely selection effects.

Day care can have negative effects, but we're still talking very small effect sizes, and quality matters a lot.

Your feelings are not a good guide to how society should operate.