How would you rank NESCACS academically?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

If this is for a recent year (after 2019), it's tricky comparing these scores b/c I think all these schools went test optional and there can be quite a difference in the fraction of students who submit scores across schools. These won't be the scores for all students enrolled, which is what one would like to have.

Also, I *think* the NCES SAT data is for admitted students rather than enrolled students. The scores for admitted students can be quite a bit higher than for the students who end up enrolling.

This is for 2021 Fall enrolled admission. It is from the government site, so it should be reliable.

Thanks for pointing out that the SAT scores are for first-years enrolling in fall 2021. I did go to the source and here are the percentage of these students that submitted SAT scores (I only looked up a few schools):

Oberlin 34%
Amherst 36%
Hamilton 32%
Wesleyan 51%
Swarthmore 39%
Connecticut 12%

Big differences in these percentages (e.g., between Wesleyan and Amherst or Connecticut and any of the others) make comparing SAT score ranges across schools tricky.

And what about ACT ?

What you need to do is add up the percent submitting SAT and ACT. Generally SAT and ACT ranges correspond and generally the better schools have higher ranges as well as pct submitting. You will see how a school like Trinity with fairly high scores but then very low percentage submitting, which is a big red flag.

Right so I guess my point is that JUST listing SAT scores doesn't give the whole story

No it doesn’t but it’s cumbersome to talk about SAT, ACT and total percent submitted. But you need to watch out for schools with a low percentage submitting. Trinity really stands out in that way. As does Bates but not as severely

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW

Student to faculty ratio at Harvard is 5:1.

Student to faculty ratio at Pomona College is 7:1.

However, Pomona College has very few classes with 50 or more students, while 10% of the classes at Harvard have 50 or more students (usually intro classes).

Pomona College professors are committed to undergraduate teaching; many Harvard professors are not. Their focus is research, obviously, and training graduate students to be their mini-me's. A class of 50 is still quite large, and most are taught by TAs. It will be tough to get to know professors unless the class enrollment is 25 or less. Harvard professors have a 2-2 teaching load, max, usually one graduate course and one upper-level undergraduate course (which often includes graduate students) per semester. For STEM there are still huge weed-out classes graded on a curve. It is generally competitive rather than collaborative. The undergraduate experiences are very different. Obviously kid-dependent as far as which would be the better environment to thrive.

Would be interested in any proof or evidence of undergraduate classes being taught by grad students at Harvard (not referring to break-out sessions).

Yes, I agree that the experiences are different.

Parchment preference:

Harvard 74% v. Pomona 26% (which is surprising to me).

Harvard 88% v. Williams College 12%

Harvard 87% v. Amherst College 13%

Harvard 72% v. Swarthmore College 28%

Harvard 75% v. Bowdoin College 25%.

Why is it surprising?

Because PP is not familiar with top west coast lacs. Pomona is the Swarthmore of CA.

DD decided against applying to Pomona, but dang that campus was lovely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do these LACs compare to national universities? Is Williams HYPSM level? Are Bowdoin and Middlebury comperable to Duke and Northwestern? Or are they lower

No, schools like Duke and Northwestern are simply on another tier above Bowdoin/Middlebury. Even Williams/Amherst would be right below Duke/Northwestern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do these LACs compare to national universities? Is Williams HYPSM level? Are Bowdoin and Middlebury comperable to Duke and Northwestern? Or are they lower

No, schools like Duke and Northwestern are simply on another tier above Bowdoin/Middlebury. Even Williams/Amherst would be right below Duke/Northwestern.

because...?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do these LACs compare to national universities? Is Williams HYPSM level? Are Bowdoin and Middlebury comperable to Duke and Northwestern? Or are they lower

No, schools like Duke and Northwestern are simply on another tier above Bowdoin/Middlebury. Even Williams/Amherst would be right below Duke/Northwestern.

because...?

PP has no idea what they're talking about!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW

Student to faculty ratio at Harvard is 5:1.

Student to faculty ratio at Pomona College is 7:1.

However, Pomona College has very few classes with 50 or more students, while 10% of the classes at Harvard have 50 or more students (usually intro classes).

Pomona College professors are committed to undergraduate teaching; many Harvard professors are not. Their focus is research, obviously, and training graduate students to be their mini-me's. A class of 50 is still quite large, and most are taught by TAs. It will be tough to get to know professors unless the class enrollment is 25 or less. Harvard professors have a 2-2 teaching load, max, usually one graduate course and one upper-level undergraduate course (which often includes graduate students) per semester. For STEM there are still huge weed-out classes graded on a curve. It is generally competitive rather than collaborative. The undergraduate experiences are very different. Obviously kid-dependent as far as which would be the better environment to thrive.

Would be interested in any proof or evidence of undergraduate classes being taught by grad students at Harvard (not referring to break-out sessions).

Yes, I agree that the experiences are different.

Parchment preference:

Harvard 74% v. Pomona 26% (which is surprising to me).

Harvard 88% v. Williams College 12%

Harvard 87% v. Amherst College 13%

Harvard 72% v. Swarthmore College 28%

Harvard 75% v. Bowdoin College 25%.

Why is it surprising?

I am familiar with West Coast LACs.

Initially, I was surprised that 25% would turn down Harvard for Pomona College due to the power of the Harvard brand in the career marketplace both here and abroad--especially in light of the numbers for Williams & Amherst versus Harvard.

My current thought is that it might be due to West Coast students' preference to remain in California.

I can understand Swarthmore for those who want an intense undergraduate experience and plan to continue on at a university pursuing a PhD. But, Bowdoin is perplexing to me. Of course, Parchment isn't a truly accurate gauge as probably only a small percentage participate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hamilton graduate here. There has been a lot of effort in increasing the profile and academic caliber of the school. Will it ever be Williams? No, but it has strong liberal arts foundation that will prepare students for the next stage of life and beyond.

The new president is trying to push Hamilton into the Bowdoin/Middlebury tier, but that is probably not realistic. However it has surpassed Colby and Colgate, two of its' closest competitors.

Good school. DS was being recruited for hockey there, spent a couple of summers in the area. Unfortunately hated the area so much even in summer that he went elsewhere. That's the toughest sell for Hamilton, IMO. Lousy location.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do these LACs compare to national universities? Is Williams HYPSM level? Are Bowdoin and Middlebury comperable to Duke and Northwestern? Or are they lower

No, schools like Duke and Northwestern are simply on another tier above Bowdoin/Middlebury. Even Williams/Amherst would be right below Duke/Northwestern.

You are a member of a socio-economic class that is one rung below those who send their children to Amherst and Williams. If you know, you know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW

Student to faculty ratio at Harvard is 5:1.

Student to faculty ratio at Pomona College is 7:1.

However, Pomona College has very few classes with 50 or more students, while 10% of the classes at Harvard have 50 or more students (usually intro classes).

Pomona College professors are committed to undergraduate teaching; many Harvard professors are not. Their focus is research, obviously, and training graduate students to be their mini-me's. A class of 50 is still quite large, and most are taught by TAs. It will be tough to get to know professors unless the class enrollment is 25 or less. Harvard professors have a 2-2 teaching load, max, usually one graduate course and one upper-level undergraduate course (which often includes graduate students) per semester. For STEM there are still huge weed-out classes graded on a curve. It is generally competitive rather than collaborative. The undergraduate experiences are very different. Obviously kid-dependent as far as which would be the better environment to thrive.

Would be interested in any proof or evidence of undergraduate classes being taught by grad students at Harvard (not referring to break-out sessions).

Yes, I agree that the experiences are different.

Parchment preference:

Harvard 74% v. Pomona 26% (which is surprising to me).

Harvard 88% v. Williams College 12%

Harvard 87% v. Amherst College 13%

Harvard 72% v. Swarthmore College 28%

Harvard 75% v. Bowdoin College 25%.

Why is it surprising?

I am familiar with West Coast LACs.

Initially, I was surprised that 25% would turn down Harvard for Pomona College due to the power of the Harvard brand in the career marketplace both here and abroad--especially in light of the numbers for Williams & Amherst versus Harvard.

My current thought is that it might be due to West Coast students' preference to remain in California.

I can understand Swarthmore for those who want an intense undergraduate experience and plan to continue on at a university pursuing a PhD. But, Bowdoin is perplexing to me. Of course, Parchment isn't a truly accurate gauge as probably only a small percentage participate.

that parchment thing is NOT real. it’s in no way reliable. it’s some weird algorithm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do these LACs compare to national universities? Is Williams HYPSM level? Are Bowdoin and Middlebury comperable to Duke and Northwestern? Or are they lower

No, schools like Duke and Northwestern are simply on another tier above Bowdoin/Middlebury. Even Williams/Amherst would be right below Duke/Northwestern.

Agree. More diversity, more options academically and socially. Great academic atmosphere due to presence of very serious graduate & professional students.

I cannot imagine anyone equating Middlebury or Bowdoin to National Universities ranked in the top 15 or 20. And the Wall street Journal/Times higher Education rating & ranking system appears to agree that the top ranked LACs (Amherst & Williams) rank at #22 and #23 when rated in a combined ranking of LACs and National Universities.

I am very familiar with all of the schools mentioned by the above quoted poster and know students at all of these schools currently and in the past. They are in two different leagues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do these LACs compare to national universities? Is Williams HYPSM level? Are Bowdoin and Middlebury comperable to Duke and Northwestern? Or are they lower

No, schools like Duke and Northwestern are simply on another tier above Bowdoin/Middlebury. Even Williams/Amherst would be right below Duke/Northwestern.

Agree. More diversity, more options academically and socially. Great academic atmosphere due to presence of very serious graduate & professional students.

I cannot imagine anyone equating Middlebury or Bowdoin to National Universities ranked in the top 15 or 20. And the Wall street Journal/Times higher Education rating & ranking system appears to agree that the top ranked LACs (Amherst & Williams) rank at #22 and #23 when rated in a combined ranking of LACs and National Universities.

I am very familiar with all of the schools mentioned by the above quoted poster and know students at all of these schools currently and in the past. They are in two different leagues.

+1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do these LACs compare to national universities? Is Williams HYPSM level? Are Bowdoin and Middlebury comperable to Duke and Northwestern? Or are they lower

No, schools like Duke and Northwestern are simply on another tier above Bowdoin/Middlebury. Even Williams/Amherst would be right below Duke/Northwestern.

You are a member of a socio-economic class that is one rung below those who send their children to Amherst and Williams. If you know, you know.

Ha, OK Hilary. Enjoy cosplaying old money. You don't know a thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

If this is for a recent year (after 2019), it's tricky comparing these scores b/c I think all these schools went test optional and there can be quite a difference in the fraction of students who submit scores across schools. These won't be the scores for all students enrolled, which is what one would like to have.

Also, I *think* the NCES SAT data is for admitted students rather than enrolled students. The scores for admitted students can be quite a bit higher than for the students who end up enrolling.

This is for 2021 Fall enrolled admission. It is from the government site, so it should be reliable.

Thanks for pointing out that the SAT scores are for first-years enrolling in fall 2021. I did go to the source and here are the percentage of these students that submitted SAT scores (I only looked up a few schools):

Oberlin 34%
Amherst 36%
Hamilton 32%
Wesleyan 51%
Swarthmore 39%
Connecticut 12%

Big differences in these percentages (e.g., between Wesleyan and Amherst or Connecticut and any of the others) make comparing SAT score ranges across schools tricky.

And what about ACT ?

What you need to do is add up the percent submitting SAT and ACT. Generally SAT and ACT ranges correspond and generally the better schools have higher ranges as well as pct submitting. You will see how a school like Trinity with fairly high scores but then very low percentage submitting, which is a big red flag.

Right so I guess my point is that JUST listing SAT scores doesn't give the whole story

No it doesn’t but it’s cumbersome to talk about SAT, ACT and total percent submitted. But you need to watch out for schools with a low percentage submitting. Trinity really stands out in that way. As does Bates but not as severely

Bates has been TO for decades, as has Bowdoin. Bates and Trinity are miles apart in terms of competitiveness and academic rigor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do these LACs compare to national universities? Is Williams HYPSM level? Are Bowdoin and Middlebury comperable to Duke and Northwestern? Or are they lower

No, schools like Duke and Northwestern are simply on another tier above Bowdoin/Middlebury. Even Williams/Amherst would be right below Duke/Northwestern.

Agree. More diversity, more options academically and socially. Great academic atmosphere due to presence of very serious graduate & professional students.

I cannot imagine anyone equating Middlebury or Bowdoin to National Universities ranked in the top 15 or 20. And the Wall street Journal/Times higher Education rating & ranking system appears to agree that the top ranked LACs (Amherst & Williams) rank at #22 and #23 when rated in a combined ranking of LACs and National Universities.

I am very familiar with all of the schools mentioned by the above quoted poster and know students at all of these schools currently and in the past. They are in two different leagues.

+1.

-1 I am a tenured professor at an R1, and would rank the academic ability of graduates of SLACs like Amherst and Williams (and Swarthmore and Pomona) above Duke and Northwestern. There's a reason why those of us who actually teach and research at universities overwhelmingly send our children to SLACs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do these LACs compare to national universities? Is Williams HYPSM level? Are Bowdoin and Middlebury comperable to Duke and Northwestern? Or are they lower

No, schools like Duke and Northwestern are simply on another tier above Bowdoin/Middlebury. Even Williams/Amherst would be right below Duke/Northwestern.

Agree. More diversity, more options academically and socially. Great academic atmosphere due to presence of very serious graduate & professional students.

I cannot imagine anyone equating Middlebury or Bowdoin to National Universities ranked in the top 15 or 20. And the Wall street Journal/Times higher Education rating & ranking system appears to agree that the top ranked LACs (Amherst & Williams) rank at #22 and #23 when rated in a combined ranking of LACs and National Universities.

I am very familiar with all of the schools mentioned by the above quoted poster and know students at all of these schools currently and in the past. They are in two different leagues.

+1.

-1 I am a tenured professor at an R1, and would rank the academic ability of graduates of SLACs like Amherst and Williams (and Swarthmore and Pomona) above Duke and Northwestern. There's a reason why those of us who actually teach and research at universities overwhelmingly send our children to SLACs.

YUP.