How would you rank NESCACS academically?

[Anonymous]

The PhD students teaching classes and/or sections at top schools like Harvard and Stanford are generally awesome. They are the best and brightest and care about teaching since it is a big part of their learning experience. Profs who are primarily focused on research and publication are the issue. Most of them care about teaching too and do a good job but there are some bad apples.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW

Student to faculty ratio at Harvard is 5:1.

Student to faculty ratio at Pomona College is 7:1.

However, Pomona College has very few classes with 50 or more students, while 10% of the classes at Harvard have 50 or more students (usually intro classes).

Pomona College professors are committed to undergraduate teaching; many Harvard professors are not. Their focus is research, obviously, and training graduate students to be their mini-me's. A class of 50 is still quite large, and most are taught by TAs. It will be tough to get to know professors unless the class enrollment is 25 or less. Harvard professors have a 2-2 teaching load, max, usually one graduate course and one upper-level undergraduate course (which often includes graduate students) per semester. For STEM there are still huge weed-out classes graded on a curve. It is generally competitive rather than collaborative. The undergraduate experiences are very different. Obviously kid-dependent as far as which would be the better environment to thrive.

Would be interested in any proof or evidence of undergraduate classes being taught by grad students at Harvard (not referring to break-out sessions).

Yes, I agree that the experiences are different.

Parchment preference:

Harvard 74% v. Pomona 26% (which is surprising to me).

Harvard 88% v. Williams College 12%

Harvard 87% v. Amherst College 13%

Harvard 72% v. Swarthmore College 28%

Harvard 75% v. Bowdoin College 25%.

I'm not at all surprised by these numbers. Most apply to Harvard because of its name, don't really care what the experience is like in terms of teaching, social experience etc. For those looking for dedicated undergraduate teaching and a smaller campus experience, unsurprising that Pomona, Swarthmore, and Bowdoin are standouts for those who visited.

I was impressed with all the LACs at the higher end of this list when we visited.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do these LACs compare to national universities? Is Williams HYPSM level? Are Bowdoin and Middlebury comperable to Duke and Northwestern? Or are they lower

In what way do you want to compare them? Lots of professors send their kids to LACs because they feel like they'll get a better educational experience than at a larger university.

This. I went to Harvard UG and regret (wish I had gone to Pomona). Although the name opened doors, I was far less well prepared for grad school than my LAC peers. Both my kids will attend LACs for UG, can apply to Ivies for grad if they want.

Not sure that this post is genuine. Seems like made-up BS to me.

It is absolutely genuine. Most of my Harvard classes were huge, in which I only interacted with TAs, until the final two years. Even then, professor interaction and feedback was negligible--most of them only cared about their graduate students. That is not the UG experience I want for my kids.

Here we go. Cue up the state flagship folks who claim they got just as much attention as any LAC student but with infinite course offerings and research opportunities. And without the stifling high school like atmosphere! Plus they learned to be an adult by navigating predatory off campus landlords!

No. It is better to compare Private National Universities with LACs.

With respect to state flagships, most public flagships offer Honors Colleges which offer small class sizes--especially for intro courses--as well as priority registration,honors only housing, and special events (speakers & recruiting) for honors students.

But, you are correct about the suffocating aspect of many small, isolated, rural LACs with limited course offerings and majors.

If you thrive on city life, why wouldn't you choose a college located in a city? Duh. Rural colleges are for outdoorsy people, not city mice.

[Anonymous]

“let’s call a spade a spade” is an outdated saying with racist origins

It's an outdated statement that's had racist overtones for the last century but its origins actually had nothing to do with race or racism -- it was a permutation of the ancient Greek saying "to call a fig a fig and a trough a trough" (probably intended as double entendres). "Trough" was translated to "spade" (synonym for shovel) in the 16th century -- a term that didn't become a racist eipthet until the 1920's. Indeed, WEB duBois actually used the phrase (uncritically) in an editorial he wrote in 1919.

The phrase probably shouldn't be used nowadays given the racist overtones now associated with that word, but it's interesting to note it wasn't actually brought into being as a racist phrase, and was used by many (including Oscar Wilde) without racist intent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

“let’s call a spade a spade” is an outdated saying with racist origins

It's an outdated statement that's had racist overtones for the last century but its origins actually had nothing to do with race or racism -- it was a permutation of the ancient Greek saying "to call a fig a fig and a trough a trough" (probably intended as double entendres). "Trough" was translated to "spade" (synonym for shovel) in the 16th century -- a term that didn't become a racist eipthet until the 1920's. Indeed, WEB duBois actually used the phrase (uncritically) in an editorial he wrote in 1919.

The phrase probably shouldn't be used nowadays given the racist overtones now associated with that word, but it's interesting to note it wasn't actually brought into being as a racist phrase, and was used by many (including Oscar Wilde) without racist intent.

Thank you! Interesting!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

If this is for a recent year (after 2019), it's tricky comparing these scores b/c I think all these schools went test optional and there can be quite a difference in the fraction of students who submit scores across schools. These won't be the scores for all students enrolled, which is what one would like to have.

Also, I *think* the NCES SAT data is for admitted students rather than enrolled students. The scores for admitted students can be quite a bit higher than for the students who end up enrolling.

This is for 2021 Fall enrolled admission. It is from the government site, so it should be reliable.

Thanks for pointing out that the SAT scores are for first-years enrolling in fall 2021. I did go to the source and here are the percentage of these students that submitted SAT scores (I only looked up a few schools):

Oberlin 34%
Amherst 36%
Hamilton 32%
Wesleyan 51%
Swarthmore 39%
Connecticut 12%

Big differences in these percentages (e.g., between Wesleyan and Amherst or Connecticut and any of the others) make comparing SAT score ranges across schools tricky.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

If this is for a recent year (after 2019), it's tricky comparing these scores b/c I think all these schools went test optional and there can be quite a difference in the fraction of students who submit scores across schools. These won't be the scores for all students enrolled, which is what one would like to have.

Also, I *think* the NCES SAT data is for admitted students rather than enrolled students. The scores for admitted students can be quite a bit higher than for the students who end up enrolling.

This is for 2021 Fall enrolled admission. It is from the government site, so it should be reliable.

Thanks for pointing out that the SAT scores are for first-years enrolling in fall 2021. I did go to the source and here are the percentage of these students that submitted SAT scores (I only looked up a few schools):

Oberlin 34%
Amherst 36%
Hamilton 32%
Wesleyan 51%
Swarthmore 39%
Connecticut 12%

Big differences in these percentages (e.g., between Wesleyan and Amherst or Connecticut and any of the others) make comparing SAT score ranges across schools tricky.

And what about ACT ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:only kids in DCUM who care about these schools are the athletes who aren’t good enough to be recruited by ivy league schools. Nescacs full of ivy reject athletes. Leads to weird dynamics on campus when 1/3 are athletes

Interesting. Because I know a number of DMV kids at NESCACs and a number of them do not play sports.

Right because many of us actually care about academics not athletics.

It's such a weird response - basically NESCACs only exist for "ivy reject athletes."

bingo - paying full boat too- ADs run the athletic department as a profit center for admissions. Perfect storm with the sports obsessed elite parents who have had one on one tennis lessons, batting coaches, and speed coaches for their little prodigies since kindergarten. Posts all over insta showing Declan “committing” to Williams for lax or Mackenzie “committing” to Amherst for tennis. Extended version of prep school..

No, that's not what I meant. By claiming this = you've never set foot on a campus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

If this is for a recent year (after 2019), it's tricky comparing these scores b/c I think all these schools went test optional and there can be quite a difference in the fraction of students who submit scores across schools. These won't be the scores for all students enrolled, which is what one would like to have.

Also, I *think* the NCES SAT data is for admitted students rather than enrolled students. The scores for admitted students can be quite a bit higher than for the students who end up enrolling.

This is for 2021 Fall enrolled admission. It is from the government site, so it should be reliable.

Thanks for pointing out that the SAT scores are for first-years enrolling in fall 2021. I did go to the source and here are the percentage of these students that submitted SAT scores (I only looked up a few schools):

Oberlin 34%
Amherst 36%
Hamilton 32%
Wesleyan 51%
Swarthmore 39%
Connecticut 12%

Big differences in these percentages (e.g., between Wesleyan and Amherst or Connecticut and any of the others) make comparing SAT score ranges across schools tricky.

And what about ACT ?

What you need to do is add up the percent submitting SAT and ACT. Generally SAT and ACT ranges correspond and generally the better schools have higher ranges as well as pct submitting. You will see how a school like Trinity with fairly high scores but then very low percentage submitting, which is a big red flag.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

If this is for a recent year (after 2019), it's tricky comparing these scores b/c I think all these schools went test optional and there can be quite a difference in the fraction of students who submit scores across schools. These won't be the scores for all students enrolled, which is what one would like to have.

Also, I *think* the NCES SAT data is for admitted students rather than enrolled students. The scores for admitted students can be quite a bit higher than for the students who end up enrolling.

This is for 2021 Fall enrolled admission. It is from the government site, so it should be reliable.

Thanks for pointing out that the SAT scores are for first-years enrolling in fall 2021. I did go to the source and here are the percentage of these students that submitted SAT scores (I only looked up a few schools):

Oberlin 34%
Amherst 36%
Hamilton 32%
Wesleyan 51%
Swarthmore 39%
Connecticut 12%

Big differences in these percentages (e.g., between Wesleyan and Amherst or Connecticut and any of the others) make comparing SAT score ranges across schools tricky.

And what about ACT ?

What you need to do is add up the percent submitting SAT and ACT. Generally SAT and ACT ranges correspond and generally the better schools have higher ranges as well as pct submitting. You will see how a school like Trinity with fairly high scores but then very low percentage submitting, which is a big red flag.

Right so I guess my point is that JUST listing SAT scores doesn't give the whole story

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW

Student to faculty ratio at Harvard is 5:1.

Student to faculty ratio at Pomona College is 7:1.

However, Pomona College has very few classes with 50 or more students, while 10% of the classes at Harvard have 50 or more students (usually intro classes).

Pomona College professors are committed to undergraduate teaching; many Harvard professors are not. Their focus is research, obviously, and training graduate students to be their mini-me's. A class of 50 is still quite large, and most are taught by TAs. It will be tough to get to know professors unless the class enrollment is 25 or less. Harvard professors have a 2-2 teaching load, max, usually one graduate course and one upper-level undergraduate course (which often includes graduate students) per semester. For STEM there are still huge weed-out classes graded on a curve. It is generally competitive rather than collaborative. The undergraduate experiences are very different. Obviously kid-dependent as far as which would be the better environment to thrive.

Would be interested in any proof or evidence of undergraduate classes being taught by grad students at Harvard (not referring to break-out sessions).

Yes, I agree that the experiences are different.

Parchment preference:

Harvard 74% v. Pomona 26% (which is surprising to me).

Harvard 88% v. Williams College 12%

Harvard 87% v. Amherst College 13%

Harvard 72% v. Swarthmore College 28%

Harvard 75% v. Bowdoin College 25%.

Why is it surprising?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW

Student to faculty ratio at Harvard is 5:1.

Student to faculty ratio at Pomona College is 7:1.

However, Pomona College has very few classes with 50 or more students, while 10% of the classes at Harvard have 50 or more students (usually intro classes).

Pomona College professors are committed to undergraduate teaching; many Harvard professors are not. Their focus is research, obviously, and training graduate students to be their mini-me's. A class of 50 is still quite large, and most are taught by TAs. It will be tough to get to know professors unless the class enrollment is 25 or less. Harvard professors have a 2-2 teaching load, max, usually one graduate course and one upper-level undergraduate course (which often includes graduate students) per semester. For STEM there are still huge weed-out classes graded on a curve. It is generally competitive rather than collaborative. The undergraduate experiences are very different. Obviously kid-dependent as far as which would be the better environment to thrive.

Would be interested in any proof or evidence of undergraduate classes being taught by grad students at Harvard (not referring to break-out sessions).

Yes, I agree that the experiences are different.

Parchment preference:

Harvard 74% v. Pomona 26% (which is surprising to me).

Harvard 88% v. Williams College 12%

Harvard 87% v. Amherst College 13%

Harvard 72% v. Swarthmore College 28%

Harvard 75% v. Bowdoin College 25%.

Why is it surprising?

the parchment comparison is bizarre. i put in hamilton/princeton and said 60 percent would pick princeton…the other 40 hamilton

[Anonymous]

I think it's more accurate for schools that have more overlap. A lot of hyp applicants will apply to t5 lacs; not as many will apply to places like Hamilton.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI, I get this SAT Score info from https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator

College 25% 75%

Amherst 1370 1550
pomona 1470 1570
middlebury 1380 1530
hamilton 1410 1540
wellesley 1400 1540
wesleyan 1300 1510
colby 1400 1530
colgate 1350 1500
vassar 1420 1540
swarthmore 1430 1560
grinnell 1370 1530
carleton 1408 1550
kenyon 1340 1500
oberlin 1330 1460
Conn.C 1333 1476

If this is for a recent year (after 2019), it's tricky comparing these scores b/c I think all these schools went test optional and there can be quite a difference in the fraction of students who submit scores across schools. These won't be the scores for all students enrolled, which is what one would like to have.

Also, I *think* the NCES SAT data is for admitted students rather than enrolled students. The scores for admitted students can be quite a bit higher than for the students who end up enrolling.

This is for 2021 Fall enrolled admission. It is from the government site, so it should be reliable.

Thanks for pointing out that the SAT scores are for first-years enrolling in fall 2021. I did go to the source and here are the percentage of these students that submitted SAT scores (I only looked up a few schools):

Oberlin 34%
Amherst 36%
Hamilton 32%
Wesleyan 51%
Swarthmore 39%
Connecticut 12%

Big differences in these percentages (e.g., between Wesleyan and Amherst or Connecticut and any of the others) make comparing SAT score ranges across schools tricky.

I understand your point. So collected NESCAC SAT info (2021 Fall).

College 25% 75% SAT submit rate ACT submit rate

Amherst 1370 1550 35% 31%
middlebury 1380 1530 31% 23%
hamilton 1410 1540 32% 20%
wesleyan 1300 1510 51% 27%
colby 1400 1530 40% 28%
Conn.C 1333 1476 12% 10%

It appears Colby's submit rate is higher than Midd, Hamilton.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW

Student to faculty ratio at Harvard is 5:1.

Student to faculty ratio at Pomona College is 7:1.

However, Pomona College has very few classes with 50 or more students, while 10% of the classes at Harvard have 50 or more students (usually intro classes).

Pomona College professors are committed to undergraduate teaching; many Harvard professors are not. Their focus is research, obviously, and training graduate students to be their mini-me's. A class of 50 is still quite large, and most are taught by TAs. It will be tough to get to know professors unless the class enrollment is 25 or less. Harvard professors have a 2-2 teaching load, max, usually one graduate course and one upper-level undergraduate course (which often includes graduate students) per semester. For STEM there are still huge weed-out classes graded on a curve. It is generally competitive rather than collaborative. The undergraduate experiences are very different. Obviously kid-dependent as far as which would be the better environment to thrive.

Would be interested in any proof or evidence of undergraduate classes being taught by grad students at Harvard (not referring to break-out sessions).

Yes, I agree that the experiences are different.

Parchment preference:

Harvard 74% v. Pomona 26% (which is surprising to me).

Harvard 88% v. Williams College 12%

Harvard 87% v. Amherst College 13%

Harvard 72% v. Swarthmore College 28%

Harvard 75% v. Bowdoin College 25%.

Why is it surprising?

Because PP is not familiar with top west coast lacs. Pomona is the Swarthmore of CA.