Talking about Santa

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Helios didn’t have anything to do with kids or gifts. Why are you using him as an example?

He’s a Greek god flying across the sky, pulled by several animals.

The visual goes way back.

I can’t find any Greek or Roman gods that fly across the sky with reindeer or deer, who bring gifts to children.

Helios was the sun god. The sun is in the sky. How does Helios relate to Santa?

HELIOS (Helius) was the Titan god of the sun, a guardian of oaths, and the god of sight. He dwelt in a golden palace in the River Okeanos (Oceanus) at the far ends of the earth from which he emerged each dawn, crowned with the aureole of the sun, driving a chariot drawn by four winged steeds. When he reached the the land of the Hesperides in the far West he descended into a golden cup which bore him through the northern streams of Okeanos back to his rising place in the East.

Once his son Phaethon tried to drive the chariot of the sun, but he lost control and set the earth ablaze. Zeus struck the boy down with a thunderbolt.

Ok. No one said Santa is an exact replica of a previous god. ??

Certain themes carry over across the years. Dude flying across the sky pulled by animals isn’t new.

Helios- a god. Repeated his trip across the sky daily. Young, beardless, golden hair, golden light coming from eyes. Personification of the Sun.

children of Helios:
Achelous, Actis, Aeëtes, Aex, Aegiale, Aegle, Aetheria, Aethon, Aloeus, Astris, Augeas, Bisaltes, Candalus, Cercaphus, the Charites, Chrysus, Cheimon, Circe, Clymenus, the Corybantes, Cos, Dioxippe, Dirce, Eiar, Electryone, Helia, Hemera, Ichnaea, Lampetia, Lelex, Macareus, Mausolus, Merope, Ochimus, Pasiphaë, Perses, Phaethon, Phaethusa, Phasis, Phoebe, Phorbas, Phthinoporon, Sterope, Tenages, Theros, Thersanon and Triopas

Roman equivalent
Sol, Sol Invictus

Norse equivalent
Sól

Etruscan equivalent
Usil

Hinduism equivalent
Surya

Canaanite equivalent
Shapash

Mesopotamian equivalent
Utu

Egyptian equivalent
Ra

In the Homeric epics, his most notable role is the one he plays in the Odyssey, where Odysseus' men despite his warnings impiously kill and eat his sacred cattle the god kept at Thrinacia, his sacred island. Once informed of their misdeed, Helios in wrath asks Zeus to punish those who wronged him, and Zeus agreeing strikes their ship with a thunderbolt, killing everyone, except for Odysseus himself, the only one who had not harmed the god's cattle, and was allowed to live. After that, Helios troubles Odysseus no more in his journey.

In the extreme east and west lived people who tended to his horses in their stalls, people for whom summer and heat were perpetual and ripeful. The sun god is described as being "tireless in his journeys" as he repeats the same process day after day for an eternity. His steeds have actual wings.

Santa: old, portly. Beard, wrinkly face, glasses and pipe. One trip around the world per year. Lives in cold, snow and ice covered land. Has no kids. Gives toys to kids. Has reindeer without wings.

[Anonymous]

not
1 of 2
adverb
ˈnät
1
—used as a function word to make negative a group of words or a word
2
—used as a function word to stand for the negative of a preceding group

exact
2 of 2
adjective
1
: exhibiting or marked by strict, particular, and complete accordance with fact or a standard
2
: marked by thorough consideration or minute measurement

replica
noun
rep·​li·​ca ˈre-pli-kə
1
: an exact reproduction (as of a painting) executed by the original artist
a replica of this was painted … this year
Constance Strachey
2
: a copy exact in all details
DNA makes a replica of itself
sailed a replica of the Viking ship
broadly : COPY

[Anonymous]

Winter Solstice Rituals and History

For ages past, Winter Solstice was celebrated and rituals of fire and light lit up the world on the darkest day of the year.

Historical evidence suggests that Winter solstice has been celebrated as far back as the stone ages. Monuments dating back to 3200 B.C can be found that align with the sunrise on solstice.

In medieval times, Winter solstice was a time of feating and celebration. Many farm animals and cattle were slaughtered, as famine was prevalent in these times and feeding extra mouths was worrisome.

Ancient rome celebrated Saturnalia, a week long celebration held in ancient rome dedicated to Saturn, seen as a ruler of agriculture.


Yule Log/Candle Ritual:

Candles traditionally and used in many Winter Solstice rituals. The Yule candle represents prosperity and to welcome in the coming light of the sun. Bring this light into your house and hearth!


Solstice Gift Exchange Ritual

Gift giving is also a wonderful tradition of Winter Solstice! Let your community warm you and show your gratitude for those you love in your life.

Solstice gifts should be meaningful and intimate. They often have close ties with nature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Winter Solstice Rituals and History

For ages past, Winter Solstice was celebrated and rituals of fire and light lit up the world on the darkest day of the year.

Historical evidence suggests that Winter solstice has been celebrated as far back as the stone ages. Monuments dating back to 3200 B.C can be found that align with the sunrise on solstice.

In medieval times, Winter solstice was a time of feating and celebration. Many farm animals and cattle were slaughtered, as famine was prevalent in these times and feeding extra mouths was worrisome.

Ancient rome celebrated Saturnalia, a week long celebration held in ancient rome dedicated to Saturn, seen as a ruler of agriculture.


Yule Log/Candle Ritual:

Candles traditionally and used in many Winter Solstice rituals. The Yule candle represents prosperity and to welcome in the coming light of the sun. Bring this light into your house and hearth!


Solstice Gift Exchange Ritual

Gift giving is also a wonderful tradition of Winter Solstice! Let your community warm you and show your gratitude for those you love in your life.

Solstice gifts should be meaningful and intimate. They often have close ties with nature.

Santa (and Christmas) isn't about slaughtering cattle, not sure about the point you're trying to make here.

Christian gift-giving is linked to the three wise men who brought gifts of gold, incense and myrrh to the newborn baby Jesus.

Candles.... it gets dark early in December, everybody uses candles....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Helios didn’t have anything to do with kids or gifts. Why are you using him as an example?

He’s a Greek god flying across the sky, pulled by several animals.

The visual goes way back.

I can’t find any Greek or Roman gods that fly across the sky with reindeer or deer, who bring gifts to children.

Helios was the sun god. The sun is in the sky. How does Helios relate to Santa?

HELIOS (Helius) was the Titan god of the sun, a guardian of oaths, and the god of sight. He dwelt in a golden palace in the River Okeanos (Oceanus) at the far ends of the earth from which he emerged each dawn, crowned with the aureole of the sun, driving a chariot drawn by four winged steeds. When he reached the the land of the Hesperides in the far West he descended into a golden cup which bore him through the northern streams of Okeanos back to his rising place in the East.

Once his son Phaethon tried to drive the chariot of the sun, but he lost control and set the earth ablaze. Zeus struck the boy down with a thunderbolt.

Ok. No one said Santa is an exact replica of a previous god. ??

Certain themes carry over across the years. Dude flying across the sky pulled by animals isn’t new.

DP. Santa doesn't share much in common with Helios, as pp pointed out. Who knows, maybe the flying reindeer were added so parents could explain how one guy made it to everybody's houses.

But in the larger scheme of things,
1. St. Nicholas was a real person around 300AD.
2. The three wise men brought gifts to the baby Jesus in Bethlehem, this is in the gospels.
3. Santa doesn't seem to have much in common with Helios or Saturnalia. Those are real stretches.
4. Christians don't worship Santa or trees. These things aren't in scripture or liturgy. They're just fun traditions.
5. Pagans don't have a monopoly on traditions. As your own posts show, similar but not identical traditions sprang up in places as distant from each other as Norway and Mongolia.

And 6. Why do you care how other people celebrate?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Winter Solstice Rituals and History

For ages past, Winter Solstice was celebrated and rituals of fire and light lit up the world on the darkest day of the year.

Historical evidence suggests that Winter solstice has been celebrated as far back as the stone ages. Monuments dating back to 3200 B.C can be found that align with the sunrise on solstice.

In medieval times, Winter solstice was a time of feating and celebration. Many farm animals and cattle were slaughtered, as famine was prevalent in these times and feeding extra mouths was worrisome.

Ancient rome celebrated Saturnalia, a week long celebration held in ancient rome dedicated to Saturn, seen as a ruler of agriculture.


Yule Log/Candle Ritual:

Candles traditionally and used in many Winter Solstice rituals. The Yule candle represents prosperity and to welcome in the coming light of the sun. Bring this light into your house and hearth!


Solstice Gift Exchange Ritual

Gift giving is also a wonderful tradition of Winter Solstice! Let your community warm you and show your gratitude for those you love in your life.

Solstice gifts should be meaningful and intimate. They often have close ties with nature.

Santa (and Christmas) isn't about slaughtering cattle, not sure about the point you're trying to make here.

Christian gift-giving is linked to the three wise men who brought gifts of gold, incense and myrrh to the newborn baby Jesus.

Candles.... it gets dark early in December, everybody uses candles....

The PP just posted a ton of information showing that almost no Christmas traditions began with the bible. Gift-giving at winter solstice definitely has nothing to do with the 3 wise men, as it existed well before the bible was even in print and before literacy was widespread. But go ahead and stick to your previous beliefs - we wouldn't want to challenge them or anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're Jewish and Santa comes to our house every year. Santa is not really a Christian figure, just one appropriated by Christianity a long time ago, so we don't see any relationship between Santa and other religions. I taught my child from an early age not to taunt other kids and to remember that not everyone celebrates holidays so it's best not to talk a lot about it at school.

It concerns me that OP thinks Santa is only for Christians, and makes sense that her kid might taunt other kids.

If your family enjoys the Santa tradition, I’m glad he visits you. Nobody else gets to dictate your household celebrations. However, your view on Santa is not widely shared. Santa is definitely associated with Christmas, and Christmas with Christianity.

I disagree. The majority of educated folks know that Santa has nothing to do with Christianity and don't feel any obligation to be Christian while celebrating a secular Christmas. Only Christians constantly whine about how everyone needs to put Jesus back into Christmas and how materialistic and secular it all is today, without realizing the irony of all of that being much older than Christianity itself.

I mean, he's been pretty secularized, but it's just wrong to say he has "nothing" to do with Christianity. Christmas is a Christian holiday, celebrating the birth of Christ. Santa is based on a Christian saint. Even if he's been turned into a secular cartoon, his origins are pretty clearly based in Christianity, and not everyone agrees that there are no religious aspects to either Santa or Christmas. Not all Jews celebrate Christmas or "do" Santa, for example.

I'm guessing if non Jews started celebrating Hanukkah because 8 days of gifts is better than one some Jewish people would find that offensive. Choosing to celebrate one of the holiest days for a different faith because it's "secularized" even though the name of it has the name of their Savior IN the name of the holiday is a bit of appropriation. I'm an atheist but I can see why some Christians would not be happy with folks and yes I celebrate. I was raised a Christian and it is part of my family culture. Don't care what anyone else does but the inability of people to consider the other side of anything is disheartening.

You have it the wrong way around. Christmas traditions like trees, gifts, lights, and a guy on a flying sleigh who gives gifts to good children are all traditions that pre-date Christianity. Many are part of the celebrations of pre-Christian religions. They were deliberately and consciously appropriated by the Christian church, with a kind of "if you can't beat 'em, make them join you" mentality, as a way to combat what it saw as pagan tradition in a population it was actively trying to convert. By not recognizing that appropriation, we simply take back what was always ours.

Who was the guy flying on a sleigh giving out gifts, before Santa?

Good point. No One. that story started with the poem "A night before Xmas"

Before that, supposedly a good Slavic king, named Nicholas, gave out gifts at Xmas and he became "Saint Nick"

The original gift giving idea supposedly came from the 3 wise men in the Bible, who came from afar, guided by a star, to bring gifts to the baby Jesus

Sorry, that's incorrect. A whole host of gods and folk figures from Greek to Slavic to Norse and Germanic mythologies flew across the sky and left gifts for children. From Odin to Father Frost, there is no shortage of them. There were even plenty of reindeer around in pre-Santa mythology. The poem referenced above came much, much later, and merely repeated and expanded on those folk beliefs, plus actually gave names to the reindeer. It did not invent the idea. Likewise, St. Nicholas (he was not Slavic, he was a Greek bishop in the 4th century, hundreds of years before the Slavs became Christian) was not the origin of most of Santa Claus - Santa has only his name (deliberately given to him by the early church in order to appropriate existing beliefs they saw as pagan) and the red clothing, which resembles a bishop.

In fact, almost nothing is known of the original St. Nicholas - all the stories of his gift-giving were written long after his death. The conflation of a popular folk character with the saint was strategic. As for the Slavs, they had their own stories about a guy with a sleigh full of gifts, and still do.

Sorry, it's not incorrect, it's just another story -- like the many stories told above.

I have to conclude that you are either wilfully ignorant or just not educated enough to see the difference.

The three wise men is a biblical story. I don't think you understand the timeline. The bible is much more recent than the mythologies mentioned above. The stories of men flying across the sky, giving gifts to children, etc. - all those are much older than the bible, and older than Christianity itself. I am just amazed at how many people claim to be Christians but don't even understand its basic history, including how long it's been around and what preceded it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're Jewish and Santa comes to our house every year. Santa is not really a Christian figure, just one appropriated by Christianity a long time ago, so we don't see any relationship between Santa and other religions. I taught my child from an early age not to taunt other kids and to remember that not everyone celebrates holidays so it's best not to talk a lot about it at school.

It concerns me that OP thinks Santa is only for Christians, and makes sense that her kid might taunt other kids.

If your family enjoys the Santa tradition, I’m glad he visits you. Nobody else gets to dictate your household celebrations. However, your view on Santa is not widely shared. Santa is definitely associated with Christmas, and Christmas with Christianity.

I disagree. The majority of educated folks know that Santa has nothing to do with Christianity and don't feel any obligation to be Christian while celebrating a secular Christmas. Only Christians constantly whine about how everyone needs to put Jesus back into Christmas and how materialistic and secular it all is today, without realizing the irony of all of that being much older than Christianity itself.

I mean, he's been pretty secularized, but it's just wrong to say he has "nothing" to do with Christianity. Christmas is a Christian holiday, celebrating the birth of Christ. Santa is based on a Christian saint. Even if he's been turned into a secular cartoon, his origins are pretty clearly based in Christianity, and not everyone agrees that there are no religious aspects to either Santa or Christmas. Not all Jews celebrate Christmas or "do" Santa, for example.

I'm guessing if non Jews started celebrating Hanukkah because 8 days of gifts is better than one some Jewish people would find that offensive. Choosing to celebrate one of the holiest days for a different faith because it's "secularized" even though the name of it has the name of their Savior IN the name of the holiday is a bit of appropriation. I'm an atheist but I can see why some Christians would not be happy with folks and yes I celebrate. I was raised a Christian and it is part of my family culture. Don't care what anyone else does but the inability of people to consider the other side of anything is disheartening.

You have it the wrong way around. Christmas traditions like trees, gifts, lights, and a guy on a flying sleigh who gives gifts to good children are all traditions that pre-date Christianity. Many are part of the celebrations of pre-Christian religions. They were deliberately and consciously appropriated by the Christian church, with a kind of "if you can't beat 'em, make them join you" mentality, as a way to combat what it saw as pagan tradition in a population it was actively trying to convert. By not recognizing that appropriation, we simply take back what was always ours.

Who was the guy flying on a sleigh giving out gifts, before Santa?

Good point. No One. that story started with the poem "A night before Xmas"

Before that, supposedly a good Slavic king, named Nicholas, gave out gifts at Xmas and he became "Saint Nick"

The original gift giving idea supposedly came from the 3 wise men in the Bible, who came from afar, guided by a star, to bring gifts to the baby Jesus

Sorry, that's incorrect. A whole host of gods and folk figures from Greek to Slavic to Norse and Germanic mythologies flew across the sky and left gifts for children. From Odin to Father Frost, there is no shortage of them. There were even plenty of reindeer around in pre-Santa mythology. The poem referenced above came much, much later, and merely repeated and expanded on those folk beliefs, plus actually gave names to the reindeer. It did not invent the idea. Likewise, St. Nicholas (he was not Slavic, he was a Greek bishop in the 4th century, hundreds of years before the Slavs became Christian) was not the origin of most of Santa Claus - Santa has only his name (deliberately given to him by the early church in order to appropriate existing beliefs they saw as pagan) and the red clothing, which resembles a bishop.

In fact, almost nothing is known of the original St. Nicholas - all the stories of his gift-giving were written long after his death. The conflation of a popular folk character with the saint was strategic. As for the Slavs, they had their own stories about a guy with a sleigh full of gifts, and still do.

The Norse would celebrate the Wild Hunt, where the God Odin (or the All-Father) would hunt down trolls and other creatures as he gave gifts to children across settlements during Mid-Winter.

The winters in Northern Europe were dark and foreboding, and so it lent itself to the idea that Odin and his gang would ride across the winds, amid much howling and shrieking of the trolls and other creatures as they were hunted down by the party. Along the way, Odin – similar to and pre-dating Santa Claus – would send little gifts to the children he passed through the villages and towns during the Viking Age.

Odin could be seen riding on the winds, with his horse Sleipnir, the eight-legged child of the God Loki. He was the fastest and strongest horse in the world. Every year when the Midwinter sun came over the lands, it was said to be Odin and his party hunting down trolls and other nasty creatures. On this night in particular, Odin would leave gifts out for the children, and they in turn would leave a small parcel of food for Odin and of course a carrot or bits of hay for the horse Sleipnir.

Odin would hunt trolls on a 8 legged horse.

Father Frost (Russian: Морозко, Morozko) is a Russian fairy tale collected by Alexander Afanasyev in Narodnye russkie skazki (1855-63). Andrew Lang included it, as "The Story of King Frost", in The Yellow Fairy Book (1894).

A woman has a daughter, whom she loves, and a step-daughter, whom she hates. One day, the woman orders her husband to take her stepdaughter out into the winter wilderness and to leave her there to die, and he obeys, leaving her at the foot of a tree in the forest. Father Frost finds her there, and because the girl is polite and kind to him, he gives her a chest full of beautiful jewels and fine garments. Some time later, the stepmother sends the girl's father to retrieve her body for burial, and is enraged when he instead brings the girl back alive and happy and dressed in finery. Consumed by greed and envy, the woman orders her husband to take her own daughter to the same place, but when found by Father Frost the woman's daughter is rude and unkind to him, and he is inclined to punish rather than reward her. The father finds her frozen to death at the foot of the tree and carries her body back to her grief-stricken mother.

In the Grimm version, the girl is covered with gold and silver coins while the rude child is covered with cement, mud, flour, and pitch.

The origins of the character of Ded Moroz predates Christianity as a Slavic wizard of winter. According to some sources in Slavic mythology, Ded Moroz, back then also called Morozko or Ded, is a snow demon.

Ded Moroz is a legendary figure similar to Santa. Under the influence of Orthodox traditions, the character of Ded Moroz was transformed into Russian Santa. Since the 19th century the attributes and legend of Ded Moroz have been shaped by literary influences. The play Snegurochka by Aleksandr Ostrovsky was influential in this respect, as was Rimsky-Korsakov's Snegurochka with libretto based on the play. By the end of the 19th century Ded Moroz became a popular character.

I don’t know any greek or roman gods who rode sleighs across the sky, pulled by reindeer, who gave gifts to kids. What were their names? Yes, reindeer have existed… but flying reindeer seem uniquely attributed to Santa.

Greek gods rode chariots across the sky. Gods tended to fly across the sky in a lot of different ways, mostly whatever way people used to travel, but in the sky. The sleigh is a cold weather vehicle - I'm not sure, but I would hypothesize that there may be gods and folk characters using sleighs, for flying or otherwise, among the folktales and mythologies of peoples living in cold areas. The reindeer was a common animal in Scandinavian mythology. I don't know if any of them flew. Current Santa is an amalgamation of beliefs and stories from many different places. He's not a replica of any one character, but most of his important features can be traced back to something other than Santa.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're Jewish and Santa comes to our house every year. Santa is not really a Christian figure, just one appropriated by Christianity a long time ago, so we don't see any relationship between Santa and other religions. I taught my child from an early age not to taunt other kids and to remember that not everyone celebrates holidays so it's best not to talk a lot about it at school.

It concerns me that OP thinks Santa is only for Christians, and makes sense that her kid might taunt other kids.

If your family enjoys the Santa tradition, I’m glad he visits you. Nobody else gets to dictate your household celebrations. However, your view on Santa is not widely shared. Santa is definitely associated with Christmas, and Christmas with Christianity.

I disagree. The majority of educated folks know that Santa has nothing to do with Christianity and don't feel any obligation to be Christian while celebrating a secular Christmas. Only Christians constantly whine about how everyone needs to put Jesus back into Christmas and how materialistic and secular it all is today, without realizing the irony of all of that being much older than Christianity itself.

I mean, he's been pretty secularized, but it's just wrong to say he has "nothing" to do with Christianity. Christmas is a Christian holiday, celebrating the birth of Christ. Santa is based on a Christian saint. Even if he's been turned into a secular cartoon, his origins are pretty clearly based in Christianity, and not everyone agrees that there are no religious aspects to either Santa or Christmas. Not all Jews celebrate Christmas or "do" Santa, for example.

I'm guessing if non Jews started celebrating Hanukkah because 8 days of gifts is better than one some Jewish people would find that offensive. Choosing to celebrate one of the holiest days for a different faith because it's "secularized" even though the name of it has the name of their Savior IN the name of the holiday is a bit of appropriation. I'm an atheist but I can see why some Christians would not be happy with folks and yes I celebrate. I was raised a Christian and it is part of my family culture. Don't care what anyone else does but the inability of people to consider the other side of anything is disheartening.

You have it the wrong way around. Christmas traditions like trees, gifts, lights, and a guy on a flying sleigh who gives gifts to good children are all traditions that pre-date Christianity. Many are part of the celebrations of pre-Christian religions. They were deliberately and consciously appropriated by the Christian church, with a kind of "if you can't beat 'em, make them join you" mentality, as a way to combat what it saw as pagan tradition in a population it was actively trying to convert. By not recognizing that appropriation, we simply take back what was always ours.

Who was the guy flying on a sleigh giving out gifts, before Santa?

Good point. No One. that story started with the poem "A night before Xmas"

Before that, supposedly a good Slavic king, named Nicholas, gave out gifts at Xmas and he became "Saint Nick"

The original gift giving idea supposedly came from the 3 wise men in the Bible, who came from afar, guided by a star, to bring gifts to the baby Jesus

Sorry, that's incorrect. A whole host of gods and folk figures from Greek to Slavic to Norse and Germanic mythologies flew across the sky and left gifts for children. From Odin to Father Frost, there is no shortage of them. There were even plenty of reindeer around in pre-Santa mythology. The poem referenced above came much, much later, and merely repeated and expanded on those folk beliefs, plus actually gave names to the reindeer. It did not invent the idea. Likewise, St. Nicholas (he was not Slavic, he was a Greek bishop in the 4th century, hundreds of years before the Slavs became Christian) was not the origin of most of Santa Claus - Santa has only his name (deliberately given to him by the early church in order to appropriate existing beliefs they saw as pagan) and the red clothing, which resembles a bishop.

In fact, almost nothing is known of the original St. Nicholas - all the stories of his gift-giving were written long after his death. The conflation of a popular folk character with the saint was strategic. As for the Slavs, they had their own stories about a guy with a sleigh full of gifts, and still do.

The Norse would celebrate the Wild Hunt, where the God Odin (or the All-Father) would hunt down trolls and other creatures as he gave gifts to children across settlements during Mid-Winter.

The winters in Northern Europe were dark and foreboding, and so it lent itself to the idea that Odin and his gang would ride across the winds, amid much howling and shrieking of the trolls and other creatures as they were hunted down by the party. Along the way, Odin – similar to and pre-dating Santa Claus – would send little gifts to the children he passed through the villages and towns during the Viking Age.

Odin could be seen riding on the winds, with his horse Sleipnir, the eight-legged child of the God Loki. He was the fastest and strongest horse in the world. Every year when the Midwinter sun came over the lands, it was said to be Odin and his party hunting down trolls and other nasty creatures. On this night in particular, Odin would leave gifts out for the children, and they in turn would leave a small parcel of food for Odin and of course a carrot or bits of hay for the horse Sleipnir.

Odin would hunt trolls on a 8 legged horse.

Father Frost (Russian: Морозко, Morozko) is a Russian fairy tale collected by Alexander Afanasyev in Narodnye russkie skazki (1855-63). Andrew Lang included it, as "The Story of King Frost", in The Yellow Fairy Book (1894).

A woman has a daughter, whom she loves, and a step-daughter, whom she hates. One day, the woman orders her husband to take her stepdaughter out into the winter wilderness and to leave her there to die, and he obeys, leaving her at the foot of a tree in the forest. Father Frost finds her there, and because the girl is polite and kind to him, he gives her a chest full of beautiful jewels and fine garments. Some time later, the stepmother sends the girl's father to retrieve her body for burial, and is enraged when he instead brings the girl back alive and happy and dressed in finery. Consumed by greed and envy, the woman orders her husband to take her own daughter to the same place, but when found by Father Frost the woman's daughter is rude and unkind to him, and he is inclined to punish rather than reward her. The father finds her frozen to death at the foot of the tree and carries her body back to her grief-stricken mother.

In the Grimm version, the girl is covered with gold and silver coins while the rude child is covered with cement, mud, flour, and pitch.

The origins of the character of Ded Moroz predates Christianity as a Slavic wizard of winter. According to some sources in Slavic mythology, Ded Moroz, back then also called Morozko or Ded, is a snow demon.

Ded Moroz is a legendary figure similar to Santa. Under the influence of Orthodox traditions, the character of Ded Moroz was transformed into Russian Santa. Since the 19th century the attributes and legend of Ded Moroz have been shaped by literary influences. The play Snegurochka by Aleksandr Ostrovsky was influential in this respect, as was Rimsky-Korsakov's Snegurochka with libretto based on the play. By the end of the 19th century Ded Moroz became a popular character.

I don’t know any greek or roman gods who rode sleighs across the sky, pulled by reindeer, who gave gifts to kids. What were their names? Yes, reindeer have existed… but flying reindeer seem uniquely attributed to Santa.

Greek gods rode chariots across the sky. Gods tended to fly across the sky in a lot of different ways, mostly whatever way people used to travel, but in the sky. The sleigh is a cold weather vehicle - I'm not sure, but I would hypothesize that there may be gods and folk characters using sleighs, for flying or otherwise, among the folktales and mythologies of peoples living in cold areas. The reindeer was a common animal in Scandinavian mythology. I don't know if any of them flew. Current Santa is an amalgamation of beliefs and stories from many different places. He's not a replica of any one character, but most of his important features can be traced back to something other than Santa.

So no gods flew around giving gifts to kids in a sleigh? Or chariot?

The Christ Child has been popular in Christmas customs as the gift bringer since roughly 1800 in south Germany. They secretly bring children the gifts on the evening of the 24th December surrounded in a mysterious light and they are never caught in the act.

The Christ Child was introduced by Martin Luther (1483-1546) and the reformers, who rejected the veneration of saints. As a “substitute” for the gift bringing character of Saint Nicholas, an asexual angel-like creature in a translucent white robe was introduced also called the “Holy Christ” by Luther. With this Luther actually meant Jesus Christ, the Saviour. The fact that the portrayal changed over time is probably down to less theologically thinking, simpler people. The angel-like ghostly creature, which was difficult to portray in Medieval nativity plays and Christmas processions, was turned into the new-born baby Jesus in the nativity, in accordance with the story of Christmas. The new name is made up from the Holy Christ and Jesus Child making Christ Child.

The Christ Child has been popular in Christmas customs as the gift bringer since roughly 1800 in south Germany.

They secretly bring children the gifts on the evening of the 24th December surrounded in a mysterious light and they are never caught in the act. Artistic portrayals of gift bringing situations with the Christ Child are relatively rare. In them he is usually portrayed as a child in a white shirt with a halo and is usually accompanied by larger angels.

Although the Christ Child was introduced by Luther, he is mainly popular in south Germany’s Catholic regions. In the more Protestant north it tends to be Santa Claus who brings the gifts, it is not uncommon for the Christ Child to be totally unknown as the gift bringer there.

[Anonymous]

What happened to all of the possible historical inspirations for Santa?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We're Jewish and Santa comes to our house every year. Santa is not really a Christian figure, just one appropriated by Christianity a long time ago, so we don't see any relationship between Santa and other religions. I taught my child from an early age not to taunt other kids and to remember that not everyone celebrates holidays so it's best not to talk a lot about it at school.

It concerns me that OP thinks Santa is only for Christians, and makes sense that her kid might taunt other kids.

If your family enjoys the Santa tradition, I’m glad he visits you. Nobody else gets to dictate your household celebrations. However, your view on Santa is not widely shared. Santa is definitely associated with Christmas, and Christmas with Christianity.

I disagree. The majority of educated folks know that Santa has nothing to do with Christianity and don't feel any obligation to be Christian while celebrating a secular Christmas. Only Christians constantly whine about how everyone needs to put Jesus back into Christmas and how materialistic and secular it all is today, without realizing the irony of all of that being much older than Christianity itself.

I mean, he's been pretty secularized, but it's just wrong to say he has "nothing" to do with Christianity. Christmas is a Christian holiday, celebrating the birth of Christ. Santa is based on a Christian saint. Even if he's been turned into a secular cartoon, his origins are pretty clearly based in Christianity, and not everyone agrees that there are no religious aspects to either Santa or Christmas. Not all Jews celebrate Christmas or "do" Santa, for example.

I'm guessing if non Jews started celebrating Hanukkah because 8 days of gifts is better than one some Jewish people would find that offensive. Choosing to celebrate one of the holiest days for a different faith because it's "secularized" even though the name of it has the name of their Savior IN the name of the holiday is a bit of appropriation. I'm an atheist but I can see why some Christians would not be happy with folks and yes I celebrate. I was raised a Christian and it is part of my family culture. Don't care what anyone else does but the inability of people to consider the other side of anything is disheartening.

You have it the wrong way around. Christmas traditions like trees, gifts, lights, and a guy on a flying sleigh who gives gifts to good children are all traditions that pre-date Christianity. Many are part of the celebrations of pre-Christian religions. They were deliberately and consciously appropriated by the Christian church, with a kind of "if you can't beat 'em, make them join you" mentality, as a way to combat what it saw as pagan tradition in a population it was actively trying to convert. By not recognizing that appropriation, we simply take back what was always ours.

Who was the guy flying on a sleigh giving out gifts, before Santa?

Good point. No One. that story started with the poem "A night before Xmas"

Before that, supposedly a good Slavic king, named Nicholas, gave out gifts at Xmas and he became "Saint Nick"

The original gift giving idea supposedly came from the 3 wise men in the Bible, who came from afar, guided by a star, to bring gifts to the baby Jesus

Sorry, that's incorrect. A whole host of gods and folk figures from Greek to Slavic to Norse and Germanic mythologies flew across the sky and left gifts for children. From Odin to Father Frost, there is no shortage of them. There were even plenty of reindeer around in pre-Santa mythology. The poem referenced above came much, much later, and merely repeated and expanded on those folk beliefs, plus actually gave names to the reindeer. It did not invent the idea. Likewise, St. Nicholas (he was not Slavic, he was a Greek bishop in the 4th century, hundreds of years before the Slavs became Christian) was not the origin of most of Santa Claus - Santa has only his name (deliberately given to him by the early church in order to appropriate existing beliefs they saw as pagan) and the red clothing, which resembles a bishop.

In fact, almost nothing is known of the original St. Nicholas - all the stories of his gift-giving were written long after his death. The conflation of a popular folk character with the saint was strategic. As for the Slavs, they had their own stories about a guy with a sleigh full of gifts, and still do.

The Norse would celebrate the Wild Hunt, where the God Odin (or the All-Father) would hunt down trolls and other creatures as he gave gifts to children across settlements during Mid-Winter.

The winters in Northern Europe were dark and foreboding, and so it lent itself to the idea that Odin and his gang would ride across the winds, amid much howling and shrieking of the trolls and other creatures as they were hunted down by the party. Along the way, Odin – similar to and pre-dating Santa Claus – would send little gifts to the children he passed through the villages and towns during the Viking Age.

Odin could be seen riding on the winds, with his horse Sleipnir, the eight-legged child of the God Loki. He was the fastest and strongest horse in the world. Every year when the Midwinter sun came over the lands, it was said to be Odin and his party hunting down trolls and other nasty creatures. On this night in particular, Odin would leave gifts out for the children, and they in turn would leave a small parcel of food for Odin and of course a carrot or bits of hay for the horse Sleipnir.

Odin would hunt trolls on a 8 legged horse.

Father Frost (Russian: Морозко, Morozko) is a Russian fairy tale collected by Alexander Afanasyev in Narodnye russkie skazki (1855-63). Andrew Lang included it, as "The Story of King Frost", in The Yellow Fairy Book (1894).

A woman has a daughter, whom she loves, and a step-daughter, whom she hates. One day, the woman orders her husband to take her stepdaughter out into the winter wilderness and to leave her there to die, and he obeys, leaving her at the foot of a tree in the forest. Father Frost finds her there, and because the girl is polite and kind to him, he gives her a chest full of beautiful jewels and fine garments. Some time later, the stepmother sends the girl's father to retrieve her body for burial, and is enraged when he instead brings the girl back alive and happy and dressed in finery. Consumed by greed and envy, the woman orders her husband to take her own daughter to the same place, but when found by Father Frost the woman's daughter is rude and unkind to him, and he is inclined to punish rather than reward her. The father finds her frozen to death at the foot of the tree and carries her body back to her grief-stricken mother.

In the Grimm version, the girl is covered with gold and silver coins while the rude child is covered with cement, mud, flour, and pitch.

The origins of the character of Ded Moroz predates Christianity as a Slavic wizard of winter. According to some sources in Slavic mythology, Ded Moroz, back then also called Morozko or Ded, is a snow demon.

Ded Moroz is a legendary figure similar to Santa. Under the influence of Orthodox traditions, the character of Ded Moroz was transformed into Russian Santa. Since the 19th century the attributes and legend of Ded Moroz have been shaped by literary influences. The play Snegurochka by Aleksandr Ostrovsky was influential in this respect, as was Rimsky-Korsakov's Snegurochka with libretto based on the play. By the end of the 19th century Ded Moroz became a popular character.

I don’t know any greek or roman gods who rode sleighs across the sky, pulled by reindeer, who gave gifts to kids. What were their names? Yes, reindeer have existed… but flying reindeer seem uniquely attributed to Santa.

Greek gods rode chariots across the sky. Gods tended to fly across the sky in a lot of different ways, mostly whatever way people used to travel, but in the sky. The sleigh is a cold weather vehicle - I'm not sure, but I would hypothesize that there may be gods and folk characters using sleighs, for flying or otherwise, among the folktales and mythologies of peoples living in cold areas. The reindeer was a common animal in Scandinavian mythology. I don't know if any of them flew. Current Santa is an amalgamation of beliefs and stories from many different places. He's not a replica of any one character, but most of his important features can be traced back to something other than Santa.

So you have a theory some gods used a sleigh, but don’t know of any?

What specifically did flying reindeer do in other folktales and mythology and legends?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We're Jewish and Santa comes to our house every year. Santa is not really a Christian figure, just one appropriated by Christianity a long time ago, so we don't see any relationship between Santa and other religions. I taught my child from an early age not to taunt other kids and to remember that not everyone celebrates holidays so it's best not to talk a lot about it at school.

It concerns me that OP thinks Santa is only for Christians, and makes sense that her kid might taunt other kids.

If your family enjoys the Santa tradition, I’m glad he visits you. Nobody else gets to dictate your household celebrations. However, your view on Santa is not widely shared. Santa is definitely associated with Christmas, and Christmas with Christianity.

I disagree. The majority of educated folks know that Santa has nothing to do with Christianity and don't feel any obligation to be Christian while celebrating a secular Christmas. Only Christians constantly whine about how everyone needs to put Jesus back into Christmas and how materialistic and secular it all is today, without realizing the irony of all of that being much older than Christianity itself.

I mean, he's been pretty secularized, but it's just wrong to say he has "nothing" to do with Christianity. Christmas is a Christian holiday, celebrating the birth of Christ. Santa is based on a Christian saint. Even if he's been turned into a secular cartoon, his origins are pretty clearly based in Christianity, and not everyone agrees that there are no religious aspects to either Santa or Christmas. Not all Jews celebrate Christmas or "do" Santa, for example.

I'm guessing if non Jews started celebrating Hanukkah because 8 days of gifts is better than one some Jewish people would find that offensive. Choosing to celebrate one of the holiest days for a different faith because it's "secularized" even though the name of it has the name of their Savior IN the name of the holiday is a bit of appropriation. I'm an atheist but I can see why some Christians would not be happy with folks and yes I celebrate. I was raised a Christian and it is part of my family culture. Don't care what anyone else does but the inability of people to consider the other side of anything is disheartening.

You have it the wrong way around. Christmas traditions like trees, gifts, lights, and a guy on a flying sleigh who gives gifts to good children are all traditions that pre-date Christianity. Many are part of the celebrations of pre-Christian religions. They were deliberately and consciously appropriated by the Christian church, with a kind of "if you can't beat 'em, make them join you" mentality, as a way to combat what it saw as pagan tradition in a population it was actively trying to convert. By not recognizing that appropriation, we simply take back what was always ours.

Who was the guy flying on a sleigh giving out gifts, before Santa?

Good point. No One. that story started with the poem "A night before Xmas"

Before that, supposedly a good Slavic king, named Nicholas, gave out gifts at Xmas and he became "Saint Nick"

The original gift giving idea supposedly came from the 3 wise men in the Bible, who came from afar, guided by a star, to bring gifts to the baby Jesus

Sorry, that's incorrect. A whole host of gods and folk figures from Greek to Slavic to Norse and Germanic mythologies flew across the sky and left gifts for children. From Odin to Father Frost, there is no shortage of them. There were even plenty of reindeer around in pre-Santa mythology. The poem referenced above came much, much later, and merely repeated and expanded on those folk beliefs, plus actually gave names to the reindeer. It did not invent the idea. Likewise, St. Nicholas (he was not Slavic, he was a Greek bishop in the 4th century, hundreds of years before the Slavs became Christian) was not the origin of most of Santa Claus - Santa has only his name (deliberately given to him by the early church in order to appropriate existing beliefs they saw as pagan) and the red clothing, which resembles a bishop.

In fact, almost nothing is known of the original St. Nicholas - all the stories of his gift-giving were written long after his death. The conflation of a popular folk character with the saint was strategic. As for the Slavs, they had their own stories about a guy with a sleigh full of gifts, and still do.

The Norse would celebrate the Wild Hunt, where the God Odin (or the All-Father) would hunt down trolls and other creatures as he gave gifts to children across settlements during Mid-Winter.

The winters in Northern Europe were dark and foreboding, and so it lent itself to the idea that Odin and his gang would ride across the winds, amid much howling and shrieking of the trolls and other creatures as they were hunted down by the party. Along the way, Odin – similar to and pre-dating Santa Claus – would send little gifts to the children he passed through the villages and towns during the Viking Age.

Odin could be seen riding on the winds, with his horse Sleipnir, the eight-legged child of the God Loki. He was the fastest and strongest horse in the world. Every year when the Midwinter sun came over the lands, it was said to be Odin and his party hunting down trolls and other nasty creatures. On this night in particular, Odin would leave gifts out for the children, and they in turn would leave a small parcel of food for Odin and of course a carrot or bits of hay for the horse Sleipnir.

Odin would hunt trolls on a 8 legged horse.

Father Frost (Russian: Морозко, Morozko) is a Russian fairy tale collected by Alexander Afanasyev in Narodnye russkie skazki (1855-63). Andrew Lang included it, as "The Story of King Frost", in The Yellow Fairy Book (1894).

A woman has a daughter, whom she loves, and a step-daughter, whom she hates. One day, the woman orders her husband to take her stepdaughter out into the winter wilderness and to leave her there to die, and he obeys, leaving her at the foot of a tree in the forest. Father Frost finds her there, and because the girl is polite and kind to him, he gives her a chest full of beautiful jewels and fine garments. Some time later, the stepmother sends the girl's father to retrieve her body for burial, and is enraged when he instead brings the girl back alive and happy and dressed in finery. Consumed by greed and envy, the woman orders her husband to take her own daughter to the same place, but when found by Father Frost the woman's daughter is rude and unkind to him, and he is inclined to punish rather than reward her. The father finds her frozen to death at the foot of the tree and carries her body back to her grief-stricken mother.

In the Grimm version, the girl is covered with gold and silver coins while the rude child is covered with cement, mud, flour, and pitch.

The origins of the character of Ded Moroz predates Christianity as a Slavic wizard of winter. According to some sources in Slavic mythology, Ded Moroz, back then also called Morozko or Ded, is a snow demon.

Ded Moroz is a legendary figure similar to Santa. Under the influence of Orthodox traditions, the character of Ded Moroz was transformed into Russian Santa. Since the 19th century the attributes and legend of Ded Moroz have been shaped by literary influences. The play Snegurochka by Aleksandr Ostrovsky was influential in this respect, as was Rimsky-Korsakov's Snegurochka with libretto based on the play. By the end of the 19th century Ded Moroz became a popular character.

I don’t know any greek or roman gods who rode sleighs across the sky, pulled by reindeer, who gave gifts to kids. What were their names? Yes, reindeer have existed… but flying reindeer seem uniquely attributed to Santa.

Greek gods rode chariots across the sky. Gods tended to fly across the sky in a lot of different ways, mostly whatever way people used to travel, but in the sky. The sleigh is a cold weather vehicle - I'm not sure, but I would hypothesize that there may be gods and folk characters using sleighs, for flying or otherwise, among the folktales and mythologies of peoples living in cold areas. The reindeer was a common animal in Scandinavian mythology. I don't know if any of them flew. Current Santa is an amalgamation of beliefs and stories from many different places. He's not a replica of any one character, but most of his important features can be traced back to something other than Santa.

So you have a theory some gods used a sleigh, but don’t know of any?

What specifically did flying reindeer do in other folktales and mythology and legends?

A quick Google search reveals that reindeer pull sleighs in the arctic, in accordance with the ancient traditions of the Sami people:

https://ethnobiology.org/forage/blog/s-mi-women-reindeer-herding-families-identity-tied-recognition-work-status

I don't think they got that idea from Santa. They also dress the reindeer in bells for special occasions. And yes, they have an ancient sun goddess who flies through the air on winter solstice, on a sleigh, carried by reindeer.

And that's not even the only flying reindeer god. The Baltic Saule also traveled through the air with flying reindeer, and she was even known to drop bits of amber into chimneys. Slavic peoples had a goddess with reindeer horns on her head, and her feast day was celebrated at winter solstice. There are more. Someone could write a dissertation on flying reindeer - actually, I'm pretty sure someone has.

[Anonymous]

I talk about Santa in terms of different traditions have different practices...and frankly try to change the subject.

My kids are pretty young and have friends their age who believe in Santa..so I'm trying to navigate the issue with my own kids are avoid a situation where they start declaring to other kids who believe that Santa isn't real. It's tough!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Winter Solstice Rituals and History

For ages past, Winter Solstice was celebrated and rituals of fire and light lit up the world on the darkest day of the year.

Historical evidence suggests that Winter solstice has been celebrated as far back as the stone ages. Monuments dating back to 3200 B.C can be found that align with the sunrise on solstice.

In medieval times, Winter solstice was a time of feating and celebration. Many farm animals and cattle were slaughtered, as famine was prevalent in these times and feeding extra mouths was worrisome.

Ancient rome celebrated Saturnalia, a week long celebration held in ancient rome dedicated to Saturn, seen as a ruler of agriculture.


Yule Log/Candle Ritual:

Candles traditionally and used in many Winter Solstice rituals. The Yule candle represents prosperity and to welcome in the coming light of the sun. Bring this light into your house and hearth!


Solstice Gift Exchange Ritual

Gift giving is also a wonderful tradition of Winter Solstice! Let your community warm you and show your gratitude for those you love in your life.

Solstice gifts should be meaningful and intimate. They often have close ties with nature.

Santa (and Christmas) isn't about slaughtering cattle, not sure about the point you're trying to make here.

Christian gift-giving is linked to the three wise men who brought gifts of gold, incense and myrrh to the newborn baby Jesus.

Candles.... it gets dark early in December, everybody uses candles....

The PP just posted a ton of information showing that almost no Christmas traditions began with the bible. Gift-giving at winter solstice definitely has nothing to do with the 3 wise men, as it existed well before the bible was even in print and before literacy was widespread. But go ahead and stick to your previous beliefs - we wouldn't want to challenge them or anything.

The pp just posted a lot of random links that don't prove much (because they don't resemble Christmas much, e.g. Helios) except that people across the globe, from Norway to Mongolia, independently come up with traditions that resemble each other in some but not all ways. Why not add Christians to these diverse peoples.

The bigger point, of course, is why anybody should care. Santa is most certainly not an article of Christian faith, nor are trees. They're fun, that's all.

[Anonymous]

Modern day pagans who claim the trees and Santa belong to them actually stole these traditions from earlier groups, including maybe from Christians.

Modern paganism originated in the 18th and 19th century, after the Germans started decorating trees for Christmas.