Talking about Santa

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Some posters on this thread are rejecting *everything* not Christian.

This rejection of historical folklore goes way beyond one post about a Slavic goddess.

Cite please. As a historian you should be able to provide cites.

I’m not the historian, but many posts with non-religious origins were removed even though they were legit and very much relevant to the discussion. About Odin, shaman, the origin of Santa & gift giving in the US, Krampus, etc.

Someone just rejected Odin again.
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/180/1096836.page#23886353

Shaman? What about shaman? You can't just toss out vague names and expect us to agree.

The Smithsonian (not your average blogger) says that "Krampus has nothing to do with Christianity." Also this: "A mangled, deranged face with bloodshot eyes tops a furry black body. Giant horns curl up from his head, displaying his half-goat, half-demon lineage." https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/krampus-could-come-you-holiday-season-180957438/

Krampus was part of the inspiration for Santa’s nice/naughty list. I posted details but they were deleted. Feel free to google.

What was the "nice" part?

Why would I spend the time to put together a thoughtful post that will just get deleted?

Google it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Outraged pagan and "historian" pps seem to think anybody cares that Santa is a fusion of sources, some Christian (the magi bearing gifts, St. Nicholas) and some maybe not (Odin).

Newsflash: WE DON'T CARE. Santa has nothing to do with worship. We know Santa is a myth and, as such, we already accepted his mythicism long ago.

However, all of modern paganism is derived from stealing and drastically modifying earlier pagan religions. That's where you should be directing your ire.

Some PPs do care very much. They reject possible non-Christian influences.

You're gonna need to cite that. Sure, people have rejected skeezy blog cut and pastes, they've rejected Helios, and they've rejected influences from far-flung Mongolia. But nobody has rejected ALL non-Christian influences.

As has been said, Christians DON'T CARE. We know Santa is a myth. It's not like Santa is a fundamental article of faith or something.

Meanwhile, you haven't attempted to address modern paganism's pirating of old myths. Care to take a whack at that?

Great. Then which non-Christian sources can we all agree were likely inspiration for Santa and other “Christmas” traditions?

When and where did these modern traditions start? Who was behind them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

I have a similar background in the study of history to you and I had the same reaction; it's odd that a history Ph.D would either post or at a minimum defend arguments based on unsourced blogs and dumping large cut and paste jobs from similarly unsourced Wikipedia pages. I'm pretty familiar with the primary sources for Odin mythology for instance, and I don't see those blogs citing those sources (the Eddas, the Heimskringla, etc.). It's possible that stuff's there, it's been a while since I sat down and read them, but actual primary sources are convincing and a public library reciting stuff it got from a blog called "Sons of Vikings" (which in turn seems to have gotten it from other blogs) isn't.

I'm the PP with the PhD, but I didn't post any cut and pastes. There is at least one other poster trying to show pre-Christian influences on Santa and Christmas in general besides me, probably more than one. Anyway, it's an anonymous forum, so I don't blame anyone for not wanting to dig out their academic citations for a thread where people will just reject it anyway. And it looks like some things are being deleted now, who knows why, so maybe the moderation isn't familiar with some of these concepts either. It just feels kind of hopeless and frustrating to know something so well, and understand all the argumentation behind it, and run up against complete ignorance wrapped in over-confidence. I have to remind myself that the understanding I have of the history of Christianity and holiday celebrations is the result of decades of intense study, in multiple languages in multiple countries, and maybe it just isn't possible for other people to grasp it. And of course, if it challenges the narrative they've grown up with, then they are even less likely to give it consideration. But that's even sadder somehow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

I don't think any Christian objects to non-Christian celebrating Christmas. Most religions are excited to have others recognize and accept their traditions. There are a small group of strange people that suggesting that anyone celebrating Christmas is giving Christianity some sort of legitimacy or ownership of the holiday. At this point, Christmas isn't really owned by any religion. This is America, celebrate or don't celebrate.

I'm not sure if some posts have been deleted earlier on, but of course no one wants to read 15 pages of comments anyway. There were some people implying that it's a Christian holiday, with various reasons why others shouldn't celebrate it, and a lot of the posts were a reaction to that, and it just kind of took off from there. One hopes those ideas aren't widespread, but seeing someone say something like that - that I shouldn't celebrate a holiday that I love so much and that my children love so much - just because I am not Christian, kind of made me see red and led to a lot of posts on my part to prove otherwise, even knowing I was probably being trolled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Not sure why you're replying to me (the PP with the quote above this), but I haven't cut and pasted anything in this thread. Believe it or not, there is more than one person who knows that pre-Christian influences are a huge part of the current Christmas celebration (and other Christian holidays too). I think you are conflating the posts of several people. I accurately summarized how this thread evolved to where it did, and even though you could easily go back and read it, you even want to disagree with that. I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make here - this is just a vitriolic post full of insults and generalizations. Not sure what you are angry about - I imagine something here challenged your beliefs and it set you off and this is your best response.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Outraged pagan and "historian" pps seem to think anybody cares that Santa is a fusion of sources, some Christian (the magi bearing gifts, St. Nicholas) and some maybe not (Odin).

Newsflash: WE DON'T CARE. Santa has nothing to do with worship. We know Santa is a myth and, as such, we already accepted his mythicism long ago.

However, all of modern paganism is derived from stealing and drastically modifying earlier pagan religions. That's where you should be directing your ire.

Some PPs do care very much. They reject possible non-Christian influences.

You're gonna need to cite that. Sure, people have rejected skeezy blog cut and pastes, they've rejected Helios, and they've rejected influences from far-flung Mongolia. But nobody has rejected ALL non-Christian influences.

As has been said, Christians DON'T CARE. We know Santa is a myth. It's not like Santa is a fundamental article of faith or something.

Meanwhile, you haven't attempted to address modern paganism's pirating of old myths. Care to take a whack at that?

Great. Then which non-Christian sources can we all agree were likely inspiration for Santa and other “Christmas” traditions?

When and where did these modern traditions start? Who was behind them?

No one can agree on that - it's sort of unknowable, but for academics, a fun thing to research and argue about eternally. But everyone can easily agree that a good number of traditions have a pre-Christian origin, but those are so very numerous, and the mobility of peoples throughout history never-ending, so that digging up new possibilities for those origins is also a never-ending activity. You can just Google and get a ton of ideas. There is no one right answer or one source.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Outraged pagan and "historian" pps seem to think anybody cares that Santa is a fusion of sources, some Christian (the magi bearing gifts, St. Nicholas) and some maybe not (Odin).

Newsflash: WE DON'T CARE. Santa has nothing to do with worship. We know Santa is a myth and, as such, we already accepted his mythicism long ago.

However, all of modern paganism is derived from stealing and drastically modifying earlier pagan religions. That's where you should be directing your ire.

Some PPs do care very much. They reject possible non-Christian influences.

No one is "rejecting possible non-Christian influences" they're asking for actual sources (like primary sources, not something you saw on the History Channel), and they're pointing out where the comparisons are flimsy. You seem to want to characterize this as something it isn't and engage in name calling rather than actually having a discussion about the questions.

I haven’t called anyone names.

Funny how random opinions/blogs are just fine for many, many posts in this forum. Some that get copied and pasted endlessly.

I post some legit sources (from researched books, etc) and now all of a sudden we need direct quotes from primary sources. LOL.

That blog wasn’t legit, sorry. It was a random compilation of scattered facts, guesses and opinions.

You people who keep asking for primary (or at least reputable secondary) sources about Jesus are shocked, shocked when somebody asks for a primary source about Odin. Go figure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Outraged pagan and "historian" pps seem to think anybody cares that Santa is a fusion of sources, some Christian (the magi bearing gifts, St. Nicholas) and some maybe not (Odin).

Newsflash: WE DON'T CARE. Santa has nothing to do with worship. We know Santa is a myth and, as such, we already accepted his mythicism long ago.

However, all of modern paganism is derived from stealing and drastically modifying earlier pagan religions. That's where you should be directing your ire.

Some PPs do care very much. They reject possible non-Christian influences.

No one is "rejecting possible non-Christian influences" they're asking for actual sources (like primary sources, not something you saw on the History Channel), and they're pointing out where the comparisons are flimsy. You seem to want to characterize this as something it isn't and engage in name calling rather than actually having a discussion about the questions.

I haven’t called anyone names.

Funny how random opinions/blogs are just fine for many, many posts in this forum. Some that get copied and pasted endlessly.

I post some legit sources (from researched books, etc) and now all of a sudden we need direct quotes from primary sources. LOL.

That blog wasn’t legit, sorry. It was a random compilation of scattered facts, guesses and opinions.

You people who keep asking for primary (or at least reputable secondary) sources about Jesus are shocked, shocked when somebody asks for a primary source about Odin. Go figure.

You people??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Some posters on this thread are rejecting *everything* not Christian.

This rejection of historical folklore goes way beyond one post about a Slavic goddess.

Cite please. As a historian you should be able to provide cites.

I’m not the historian, but many posts with non-religious origins were removed even though they were legit and very much relevant to the discussion. About Odin, shaman, the origin of Santa & gift giving in the US, Krampus, etc.

Someone just rejected Odin again.
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/180/1096836.page#23886353

Shaman? What about shaman? You can't just toss out vague names and expect us to agree.

The Smithsonian (not your average blogger) says that "Krampus has nothing to do with Christianity." Also this: "A mangled, deranged face with bloodshot eyes tops a furry black body. Giant horns curl up from his head, displaying his half-goat, half-demon lineage." https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/krampus-could-come-you-holiday-season-180957438/

Krampus was part of the inspiration for Santa’s nice/naughty list. I posted details but they were deleted. Feel free to google.

What was the "nice" part?

Why would I spend the time to put together a thoughtful post that will just get deleted?

Google it.

Translation: despite my claim, there’s nothing “nice” about Krampus. So I will just stomp off in a huff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

I don't think any Christian objects to non-Christian celebrating Christmas. Most religions are excited to have others recognize and accept their traditions. There are a small group of strange people that suggesting that anyone celebrating Christmas is giving Christianity some sort of legitimacy or ownership of the holiday. At this point, Christmas isn't really owned by any religion. This is America, celebrate or don't celebrate.

I'm not sure if some posts have been deleted earlier on, but of course no one wants to read 15 pages of comments anyway. There were some people implying that it's a Christian holiday, with various reasons why others shouldn't celebrate it, and a lot of the posts were a reaction to that, and it just kind of took off from there. One hopes those ideas aren't widespread, but seeing someone say something like that - that I shouldn't celebrate a holiday that I love so much and that my children love so much - just because I am not Christian, kind of made me see red and led to a lot of posts on my part to prove otherwise, even knowing I was probably being trolled.

This never happened. If you’re going to make claims, you do need to back them up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Not sure why you're replying to me (the PP with the quote above this), but I haven't cut and pasted anything in this thread. Believe it or not, there is more than one person who knows that pre-Christian influences are a huge part of the current Christmas celebration (and other Christian holidays too). I think you are conflating the posts of several people. I accurately summarized how this thread evolved to where it did, and even though you could easily go back and read it, you even want to disagree with that. I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make here - this is just a vitriolic post full of insults and generalizations. Not sure what you are angry about - I imagine something here challenged your beliefs and it set you off and this is your best response.

You’ve contributed nothing but insults and “trust me, I’m a historian.”

If you write something like the following, you have no business complaining that someone insulted you back: “But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.”

Nobody, but nobody, here has said there are no pre-Christian influences on Santa. However, nobody cares until pp started posting unsourced nonsense about certain myths. If you think that’s OK, maybe you should hand your doctorate back in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Some posters on this thread are rejecting *everything* not Christian.

This rejection of historical folklore goes way beyond one post about a Slavic goddess.

Cite please. As a historian you should be able to provide cites.

I’m not the historian, but many posts with non-religious origins were removed even though they were legit and very much relevant to the discussion. About Odin, shaman, the origin of Santa & gift giving in the US, Krampus, etc.

Someone just rejected Odin again.
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/180/1096836.page#23886353

Shaman? What about shaman? You can't just toss out vague names and expect us to agree.

The Smithsonian (not your average blogger) says that "Krampus has nothing to do with Christianity." Also this: "A mangled, deranged face with bloodshot eyes tops a furry black body. Giant horns curl up from his head, displaying his half-goat, half-demon lineage." https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/krampus-could-come-you-holiday-season-180957438/

Krampus was part of the inspiration for Santa’s nice/naughty list. I posted details but they were deleted. Feel free to google.

What was the "nice" part?

Why would I spend the time to put together a thoughtful post that will just get deleted?

Google it.

Translation: despite my claim, there’s nothing “nice” about Krampus. So I will just stomp off in a huff.

Reread what I wrote. I didn’t say anything about Krampus being “nice”. Why are you misrepresenting what I wrote?

Again, I already posted about it, but someone got it deleted. Not bothering to do it again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Outraged pagan and "historian" pps seem to think anybody cares that Santa is a fusion of sources, some Christian (the magi bearing gifts, St. Nicholas) and some maybe not (Odin).

Newsflash: WE DON'T CARE. Santa has nothing to do with worship. We know Santa is a myth and, as such, we already accepted his mythicism long ago.

However, all of modern paganism is derived from stealing and drastically modifying earlier pagan religions. That's where you should be directing your ire.

Some PPs do care very much. They reject possible non-Christian influences.

No one is "rejecting possible non-Christian influences" they're asking for actual sources (like primary sources, not something you saw on the History Channel), and they're pointing out where the comparisons are flimsy. You seem to want to characterize this as something it isn't and engage in name calling rather than actually having a discussion about the questions.

I haven’t called anyone names.

Funny how random opinions/blogs are just fine for many, many posts in this forum. Some that get copied and pasted endlessly.

I post some legit sources (from researched books, etc) and now all of a sudden we need direct quotes from primary sources. LOL.

That blog wasn’t legit, sorry. It was a random compilation of scattered facts, guesses and opinions.

You people who keep asking for primary (or at least reputable secondary) sources about Jesus are shocked, shocked when somebody asks for a primary source about Odin. Go figure.

I’ve posted from a variety of different sources. Not just a blog.

But they were all non-Christian inspirations so they got deleted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Not sure why you're replying to me (the PP with the quote above this), but I haven't cut and pasted anything in this thread. Believe it or not, there is more than one person who knows that pre-Christian influences are a huge part of the current Christmas celebration (and other Christian holidays too). I think you are conflating the posts of several people. I accurately summarized how this thread evolved to where it did, and even though you could easily go back and read it, you even want to disagree with that. I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make here - this is just a vitriolic post full of insults and generalizations. Not sure what you are angry about - I imagine something here challenged your beliefs and it set you off and this is your best response.

You’ve contributed nothing but insults and “trust me, I’m a historian.”

If you write something like the following, you have no business complaining that someone insulted you back: “But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.”

Nobody, but nobody, here has said there are no [i]pre-Christian influences on Santa[b]. However, nobody cares until pp started posting unsourced nonsense about certain myths. If you think that’s OK, maybe you should hand your doctorate back in.

What are the non-Christian influences?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a history PhD who taught in many colleges and universities over the years, it saddens me to see how many people here don't have any understanding of how folk beliefs like Santa come to be. The folks (including me in some cases) posting about ancient gods with flying reindeer are trying to show what any person with a college education should know - that holiday celebrations and folk beliefs evolve over time and absorb bits and pieces of many past traditions. The roots of Santa are ancient. No one said the Slavic sun goddess was the original Santa - what a sad lack of reading comprehension on the part of the PP who claimed that. It was one of many examples given of Santa features that pre-date Christianity itself, thus clearly showing (or it should be clear, anyway) that Santa as we know him is not wholly, or even mostly, derived from Christian texts or a saint.

I can't even remember the original point of this thread, but I think it had to do with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, Christians popping up to claim they basically have a monopoly on Christmas and that it's disrespectful for others to celebrate it, and then people trying to show that the most popular Christmas traditions aren't rooted in Christianity in the first place.

But unfortunately, as usual on dcum, ignorance reigns supreme and many posters are either trolling or just incapable of understanding history. How sad for those of us who have spent out lives trying to teach it.

Nope. It’s rich that you’re accusing others of lack of reading comprehension. Please point to the post that said Christians have a monopoly on Christmas. Look, it’s great you have a PhD in modern European or Slavic history or something, but your insults and distortions suggest you’re not an academic at all.

What you’re missing/refusing to understand is that a vomit bucket of posts from places like Mongolia, cut and pasted from an atheist blog, just isn’t persuasive and barely constitutes argument. Were those yours? How embarrassing for you.

You’re also missing that nobody here seems to care that Santa is a myth, and that he may even come in part from earlier myths. But Santa also brings new things to the folklore, such as 1) St. Nicholas around 300AD and 2) the gospel’s wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. THAT’s how history works, sorry someone on DCUM needs to explain it to you.

— A history major from a great college who got a graduate degree and now does research in a different field

Some posters on this thread are rejecting *everything* not Christian.

This rejection of historical folklore goes way beyond one post about a Slavic goddess.

Cite please. As a historian you should be able to provide cites.

I’m not the historian, but many posts with non-religious origins were removed even though they were legit and very much relevant to the discussion. About Odin, shaman, the origin of Santa & gift giving in the US, Krampus, etc.

Someone just rejected Odin again.
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/180/1096836.page#23886353

Shaman? What about shaman? You can't just toss out vague names and expect us to agree.

The Smithsonian (not your average blogger) says that "Krampus has nothing to do with Christianity." Also this: "A mangled, deranged face with bloodshot eyes tops a furry black body. Giant horns curl up from his head, displaying his half-goat, half-demon lineage." https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/krampus-could-come-you-holiday-season-180957438/

Krampus was part of the inspiration for Santa’s nice/naughty list. I posted details but they were deleted. Feel free to google.

What was the "nice" part?

Why would I spend the time to put together a thoughtful post that will just get deleted?

Google it.

Translation: despite my claim, there’s nothing “nice” about Krampus. So I will just stomp off in a huff.

Reread what I wrote. I didn’t say anything about Krampus being “nice”. Why are you misrepresenting what I wrote?

Again, I already posted about it, but someone got it deleted. Not bothering to do it again.

Nope. At 9:55 today you wrote “Krampus was part of the inspiration for Santa’s nice/naughty list.”

Again, what’s the “nice” part, lol.