Brian Flores lawsuit alleging racism in NFL

[Anonymous]

It is utterly predictable, but darkly hilarious, that now that the racists cannot defend the NFL’s practices on the merits, they have pivoted to whether it can be sustained as a class action based on a superficial at best understand of class action litigation and the implications for the NFL of it being asserted as a class action. Even if the class isn’t certified, this can do a lot of damage to the NFL in the meantime.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It is truly amazing the lengths some people are going in this thread to deny that there is any racial discrimination in this NFL. And those of you trying to make the discussion about gambling instead of racism are complicit in that.

I'm not doing that, but rather commenting on the merits of the lawsuit. Two different things.
If the Rooney Rule was violated, it's Roger Goodell's job to take action - it's just a league rule. It doesn't come close to proving unlawful racial discrimination.
Now if Flores and his lawyers are firing a warning shot at the NFL owners, fine. Perhaps that's overdue. But I don't see that hiring Daboll over Flores comes close to proving racial discrimination.

If the only reason the Giants invited Flores to interview was because he is a racial minority and not because they had any intention of seriously considering him for the job, that is absolutely racial discrimination.

You keep saying that, and I'm not aware of any legal support for it. I'm happy to reconsider if you can provide some.

You have the causation all turned around here, which I think is why you're having trouble understanding this (unless you are deliberately misunderstanding). The Rooney Rule did not create these issues of racism in the NFL, it was the NFL's attempt to address racism in hiring practices to avoid a lawsuit like this one. What is clear from Flores' lawsuit is that the Rooney Rule is not working because teams are continuing discriminatory hiring practices despite the rule. The discrimination claims are not based on violation of the Rooney Rule itself, it is based on the actual racism going on in the hiring practices of NFL teams. These violations of the intent of the Rooney Rule are evidence of teams' discriminatory practices because it demonstrates that, even in the face of ample evidence of past discriminatory practices, teams are doubling down on those practices with full knowledge of the effects rather than trying to eliminate racism in their hiring practices.

some good points, but it still overlooks why the Giants wanted Daboll over Flores. Are you seriously arguing it was because of race?
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I would recommend you read the complaint itself. The lawsuit is not just about that single incident. It provides a detailed account of the history of racism that led to the Rooney Rule, the failure of the Rooney Rule itself because of the lack of good faith compliance by teams, how the issue pervades not only head coaching positions but also coordinator and GM positions, and detailed accounts of multiple specific instances of disparate treatment in hiring involving different individuals and teams. It is a detailed and compelling read. Unless, that is, you go into it determined to reject any possibility that racism could exist in the NFL due to your own bigotry.

So why are you avoiding answering the question central to this lawsuit. Was Daboll selected due to race. Go aherad and make the argument he was an obviously lesser choice than Flores. If Flores (or you) can't win that argument, he loses this lawsuit.

The Daboll allegations are not actually "central" to the complaint. They are only part of much broader and extensive allegations regarding racism in NFL hiring practices. Let's say we are flipping a coin, and the first flip lands on heads. That does not necessarily mean the coin is weighted towards heads, right? If I flip it three times and each time it's heads, that could just be a coincidence. But if I flip it 32 times in a row and it comes up tails only once, would you start to question whether there something shady going on with that coin?

This is not actually true. Yes, the complaint alleges a broader racist culture. But before a class is even considered, Flores has to allege his own claim - only them can he represent a class (and whether a lass could be certified here is seriously in question, but that's a later discussion). And the Daboll allegations are indeed central to his claims.

So you trust the coin that lands on heads 31 times out of 32? Or do you ignore the pattern because you had heads rather than tails?

Selection decisions -- especially with very high stakes positions like NFL head coaches -- are not like coin tosses. o.K.? Your premise is completely flawed.

You are very committed to your position that white men are inherently more qualified than black men for NFL head coaching positions.

That's complete b.s. Like all fans I want a winner, doesn't matter the head coaches race. Stop with the race-baiting bullsh*t

So what is your explanation for the dramatic under representation of minorities among NFL head coaches? I would like you to lay that out clearly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is utterly predictable, but darkly hilarious, that now that the racists cannot defend the NFL’s practices on the merits, they have pivoted to whether it can be sustained as a class action based on a superficial at best understand of class action litigation and the implications for the NFL of it being asserted as a class action. Even if the class isn’t certified, this can do a lot of damage to the NFL in the meantime.

Read the thread title. Brian Flores LAWSUIT. You don't think that will attract people who want to discuss the merits of a LAWSUIT?

You wanna talk about general NFL racism which is not legally actionable, then start a different thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Couple of points that will make it hard on Flores to prove his suit-
1. Miami has a black GM, who is technically, Flores boss.
Oh, right if there's a black person in leadership that alleviates all the problems
2. NYG did satisfy Rooney Rule before Flores interview w Leslie Frazier and Patrick Graham (current DC/ 2 interviews)
The fact that he was out there and looking in the first place is problematic. The collusion in the league is well documented. Squeezing certain folks out of opportunity from multiple angles
3. NYG also had a minority as the GM for 10 years, so really can't point to history of neglecting minorities in senior roles
You cannot be that naive
4. Broncos had just fired Vance Joseph as coach when they interviewed Flores. Again, tough to be systematic when recent history suggests otherwise.
32 teams
5. Re giants, they may have wanted Daboll. But until contract is signed, it is not unusual to continue to interview candidates. As mentioned above, Flores was considered a favorite of NYG ownership until GM was hired.
BB knew about the hire before Flores' interview. Performative

If NFL coaches jobs would mirror society then a fair representation would be roughly 3 - 4 black men as HC's. Black pop is 14% of US pop. Assume 50/50 male/female...so 7% of US pop male. Adjusted for higher level of participation a bit (both that playing in the NFL is a prerequisite to coach in the NFL)... 3.2 jobs is 10% of NFL HC's for reference.

Having said all that, it is absolutely the case that some level of racism exists within NFL ownership. I would say the same for any industry. Hard to say how prevalent it is, but good on Flores for the courage and his belief in being wronged to take on this difficult subject to legally win.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is utterly predictable, but darkly hilarious, that now that the racists cannot defend the NFL’s practices on the merits, they have pivoted to whether it can be sustained as a class action based on a superficial at best understand of class action litigation and the implications for the NFL of it being asserted as a class action. Even if the class isn’t certified, this can do a lot of damage to the NFL in the meantime.

Read the thread title. Brian Flores LAWSUIT. You don't think that will attract people who want to discuss the merits of a LAWSUIT?

You wanna talk about general NFL racism which is not legally actionable, then start a different thread.

You think racism in employment decisions isn’t legally actionable? 😂

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is utterly predictable, but darkly hilarious, that now that the racists cannot defend the NFL’s practices on the merits, they have pivoted to whether it can be sustained as a class action based on a superficial at best understand of class action litigation and the implications for the NFL of it being asserted as a class action. Even if the class isn’t certified, this can do a lot of damage to the NFL in the meantime.

Read the thread title. Brian Flores LAWSUIT. You don't think that will attract people who want to discuss the merits of a LAWSUIT?

You wanna talk about general NFL racism which is not legally actionable, then start a different thread.

You think racism in employment decisions isn’t legally actionable? 😂

I don't think the decision by the Giants not to hire Flores was racist or implicates NFL hiring practices - ok? Tell me how it does.
Asked but never answered, is Dobell an obviously lesser choice for the position than Flores?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is utterly predictable, but darkly hilarious, that now that the racists cannot defend the NFL’s practices on the merits, they have pivoted to whether it can be sustained as a class action based on a superficial at best understand of class action litigation and the implications for the NFL of it being asserted as a class action. Even if the class isn’t certified, this can do a lot of damage to the NFL in the meantime.

Read the thread title. Brian Flores LAWSUIT. You don't think that will attract people who want to discuss the merits of a LAWSUIT?

You wanna talk about general NFL racism which is not legally actionable, then start a different thread.

You think racism in employment decisions isn’t legally actionable? 😂

"racism" is only legally actionable if it affects a particular hiring decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is utterly predictable, but darkly hilarious, that now that the racists cannot defend the NFL’s practices on the merits, they have pivoted to whether it can be sustained as a class action based on a superficial at best understand of class action litigation and the implications for the NFL of it being asserted as a class action. Even if the class isn’t certified, this can do a lot of damage to the NFL in the meantime.

Read the thread title. Brian Flores LAWSUIT. You don't think that will attract people who want to discuss the merits of a LAWSUIT?

You wanna talk about general NFL racism which is not legally actionable, then start a different thread.

You think racism in employment decisions isn’t legally actionable? 😂

I don't think the decision by the Giants not to hire Flores was racist or implicates NFL hiring practices - ok? Tell me how it does.
Asked but never answered, is Dobell an obviously lesser choice for the position than Flores?

To flip it around, is Flores such an obviously lesser choice than Dobell that he shouldn’t have even gotten a legitimate interview?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is utterly predictable, but darkly hilarious, that now that the racists cannot defend the NFL’s practices on the merits, they have pivoted to whether it can be sustained as a class action based on a superficial at best understand of class action litigation and the implications for the NFL of it being asserted as a class action. Even if the class isn’t certified, this can do a lot of damage to the NFL in the meantime.

The odds are extremely high that I have litigated more class actions than you have. If you think this is a good candidate for certification, you really do have a lot to learn.

Moreover, is you think discussing the procedural prospects of a case is evidence of racism, I'm not sure there's anything left to discuss.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is utterly predictable, but darkly hilarious, that now that the racists cannot defend the NFL’s practices on the merits, they have pivoted to whether it can be sustained as a class action based on a superficial at best understand of class action litigation and the implications for the NFL of it being asserted as a class action. Even if the class isn’t certified, this can do a lot of damage to the NFL in the meantime.

Read the thread title. Brian Flores LAWSUIT. You don't think that will attract people who want to discuss the merits of a LAWSUIT?

You wanna talk about general NFL racism which is not legally actionable, then start a different thread.

You think racism in employment decisions isn’t legally actionable? 😂

I don't think the decision by the Giants not to hire Flores was racist or implicates NFL hiring practices - ok? Tell me how it does.
Asked but never answered, is Dobell an obviously lesser choice for the position than Flores?

To flip it around, is Flores such an obviously lesser choice than Dobell that he shouldn’t have even gotten a legitimate interview?

It looks like they pre-selected Dobell. So show me the racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is utterly predictable, but darkly hilarious, that now that the racists cannot defend the NFL’s practices on the merits, they have pivoted to whether it can be sustained as a class action based on a superficial at best understand of class action litigation and the implications for the NFL of it being asserted as a class action. Even if the class isn’t certified, this can do a lot of damage to the NFL in the meantime.

Superficial? Dude, I've been an attorney on both sides of class action certification disputes, and I don't think this one has much merit. It does seem more to me like a law firm choosing Flores as a lead plaintiff to make some larger point about not enough black coaches in the NFL. Maybe some of these owners can be pushed around, but a lot of them can't.

[Anonymous]

Another example, from Arizona https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nfl/cardinals/2022/02/02/arizona-cardinals-kliff-kingsbury-cited-brian-flores-nfl-lawsuit/9313455002/

"In 2018, the Arizona Cardinals hired Steve Wilks, a longtime NFL coach for several franchises. He led the team to a disappointing 3-13 record in his first season.

"However, it was his first season, and he was not given any time to develop the team or culture and he was stuck with numerous burdens not of his own making—he had a rookie quarterback in Josh Rosen (9th pick), the team GM (Steve Keim) was suspended for five weeks following a DUI during training camp and the Cardinals had numerous injuries to key players. Mr. Keim, a white GM, kept his job, but Mr. Wilks was fired.

"The next Head Coach, Kliff Kingsbury, went 5-10 in his first year with Kyler Murray as a rookie quarterback (first pick), and he retained his job and was given time to improve."

[Anonymous]

I feel bad for Dobell. He's still got a terrible QB, he'll go into a locker room that may or may not already hate him, and if he doesn't win immediately sports media will be screaming that the hire was racist

[Anonymous]

Super Bowl week will come. Game will be played. Next news cycle will start. NFL knows this. See Snyder, Dan. Kraft, Robert. Brady, Tom. Watson, Deshaun. Ruggs, Henry. Meyer, Urban.

Only 32 Head jobs plus another 450-500 assistant jobs in NFL. Those jobs are hard to come by...alot of mouths will stay shut on this topic.

50m people watching playoff games. 15m people pm avg watch each regular season game. SB will be over 100m.

This is the week to make hay for Flores and his legal team...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I don't understand is why the NFL doesn't fix these issues around race/racism. They've probably had more warning bells than a lot of other industries. They are not going to have any customers 10 years from now.

I can't argue the merits of this case, but I'm clear about the damage it will do to the NFL's reputation.

I don't think the Flores is worried about a future job, he's trying to build his legacy as someone who stood up to the NFL. I think its great.

You are kidding? There are many good reasons for "fixing this problem," but that is definitely NOT one of them.

What I'm saying is at least the NFL should be concerned about their future customers. I am Black and understand that NOONE wants to really fix this stuff because its the right thing to do.