If Jesus wasn’t a real historical figure, where did Christian theology come from?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
People of faith are not expected to provide proof for beliefs that are based strictly on faith - and atheists are well aware of that. People of faith are usually quite proud of their ability to believe things without proof - it's what faith is all about..

See this here? This is the silver bullet to atheists that you guys are futilely typing/copying/pasting are ignoring.

“We know there is no evidence”
“We know there are no facts supporting these claims”
“We do not care”
“We believe it anyway”

There is no argument against this. End of game.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There is “faith” that he existed and “faith” that he was supernatural.

Anything supernatural requires faith, because there can be no scientific proof. Belief in Santa Claus and fairies and God requires faith. When people grow up - and even when they are older children - they no longer believe in Santa or fairies, but some of them maintain their belief in God. This is in part because God promises much more (eternal life) than Santa or fairies (occasional gifts, that keep coming even when belief ends).

How is Jesus different from faries?


Non-biblical sources confirm Jesus at least died.

Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian who lived in the first century who wrote a history of Judaism around AD 93. In his history he twice mentions Jesus of Nazareth by name. Additionally, as former atheist Lee Strobel writes, "we not only have multiple, early accounts of Jesus’ death in the New Testament, but we’ve also got five ancient sources outside the Bible that confirm his execution. No wonder the peer-reviewed Journal of the American Medical Association concluded: 'Clearly, the weight of the historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead before the wound to his side was inflicted.'" One thing that is agreed upon is that a man named Jesus of Nazareth lived and died in the first century.

The news of Jesus' resurrection spread too quickly to be a legend.

Again from Lee Strobel, "Famed classical historian A.N. Sherwin-White of Oxford said it took more than two generations in the ancient world for legends to develop and wipe out a solid core of historical truth." A good example of this the legend of King Arthur, an English king who supposedly lived around AD 500. The first stories of King Arthur didn’t appear until 300 or 400 years after he supposedly lived, long enough for anyone who could have contradicted the legend to die off. So if the stories of Jesus rising from the dead would have appeared 100 years or more after the resurrection took place, enough time would have passed so that church fathers could rewrite history. But the letter Paul wrote to Corinth (known in the New Testament as 1 Corinthians) is dated to the 50s AD, a mere twenty years after the resurrection. 1 Corinthians makes definitive claims about the resurrection, while countless people who could have disproven it would have still been alive. Jesus' resurrection was not a legend claimed centuries later but an eyewitness account documented within the lifetime of everyone who experienced it.

The tomb of Jesus was empty.

The easiest way to disprove the resurrection of Jesus would be to produce a body, but no one ever did. Even the opponents of early Christianity, the Jewish leaders who had so much to lose if Jesus did in fact rise from the dead, could not point to a body. An eyewitness account states, “When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole Him away while we were asleep.’ If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.” The body of Jesus was never produced by the opponents of early Christianity, either the Jewish leaders or the Roman government.

We have eyewitness accounts of people seeing Jesus alive after His death.

Again from former atheist and now Christian apologist Lee Strobel, "While we only have one or two sources for much of what we know from ancient history, we have nine ancient sources –inside and outside the New Testament – confirming the testimony of the disciples that they encountered the resurrected Jesus." One thing that is undeniable is that numerous people claimed to have seen the resurrected Jesus, including over 500 people at one time. A mass hallucination like that is not possible. Reports of multiple people hallucinating (either from drugs or extreme stress) have been documented, but in every case each person claimed to have seen something completely different. You do not have a mass of people all hallucinating about the exact same thing, yet hundreds and hundreds of people all claimed to have seen the risen Jesus.

The earliest disciples died for their claim of a resurrected Jesus.

If the resurrection of Jesus was a hoax, the disciples would have been the ones to make it up. They would have known (even if no one else did) that the whole thing was a lie. And yet they allowed themselves to be arrested, tried, tortured and executed for their claims about the resurrection. And think about it from what you know about human nature: you'll die for the truth. You'll die for a lie that you believe to be the truth. But you won't die for a lie that you know is a lie. If it was a lie, the disciples would have been the ones to create it and spread it. And yet they endured untold suffering and pain for their claim, and so did hundreds of other eyewitnesses who suffered at the hands of early Jewish and Roman persecution. Their lives and ultimate deaths are perhaps the greatest testimony to the fact that the resurrection of Jesus really did happen.

https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/5-evidences-that-the-resurrection-of-jesus-is-not-a-fairy-tale.aspx

Meanwhile: who has died for faries? Or Santa Claus?

This is a bad argument. Plenty of people died for Julius Caesar or Attila the Hun or Boudica.

You either have faith or you don't. You're not going to have definitive proof of God. Either you believe or you don't.

Actually it’s 5 great arguments, and I noticed you aren’t attempting to refute any of it.

Atheists want proof. Evidence. Facts. Then switch to “it’s faith only, no facts needed” on a whim in their next comment. They can’t make up their minds.

I'm actually not an atheist. But I find this whole "here, I've proved God, checkmate atheists" stuff pretty gross. It cheapens faith, IMO and is usually based on junk history and science. It makes Christians look bad.

DP. How would you respond to a direct request from an atheist asking for “proof,” then. Also, are you Christian?

Why do you care if an atheist asks for proof. Ask them to respect your faith and respect their nonbelief and move on. I'm part of an interfaith family and we've dealt just fine thisnway.

I have heard atheists here say that there is no proof for beliefs that are based completely on faith, like Jesus rose from the dead, etc. People of faith are not expected to provide proof for beliefs that are based strictly on faith - and atheists are well aware of that. People of faith are usually quite proud of their ability to believe things without proof - it's what faith is all about.

Atheists expect proof only of things that are based on science. They don't expect proof of faith-based issues, because they know there can't be any. Jesus is the son of god? His mother was a virgin? These are stories to atheists and matters of faith to Christians.

Okay but who cares if someone doesn't share your beliefs?

Don't tell people they're going to hell. Don't mock other people's beliefs. Basically don't be rude, don't force your belief or non belief in anyone else and everyone gets along fine.

The thing is, Christians often think they're doing you a favor by telling you Jesus is Lord and if you don't believe it, you'll burn in hell forever.

And atheists are considered rude just by saying there's no proof of any of this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People of faith are not expected to provide proof for beliefs that are based strictly on faith - and atheists are well aware of that. People of faith are usually quite proud of their ability to believe things without proof - it's what faith is all about..

See this here? This is the silver bullet to atheists that you guys are futilely typing/copying/pasting are ignoring.

“We know there is no evidence”
“We know there are no facts supporting these claims”
“We do not care”
“We believe it anyway”

There is no argument against this. End of game.

Agree, except that it's no so for the "Jesus walked the earth" people who think that just because some scholars think there was a 1st century Jesus that people should be Christian

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People of faith are not expected to provide proof for beliefs that are based strictly on faith - and atheists are well aware of that. People of faith are usually quite proud of their ability to believe things without proof - it's what faith is all about..

See this here? This is the silver bullet to atheists that you guys are futilely typing/copying/pasting are ignoring.

“We know there is no evidence”
“We know there are no facts supporting these claims”
“We do not care”
“We believe it anyway”

There is no argument against this. End of game.

Agree, except that it's no so for the "Jesus walked the earth" people who think that just because some scholars think there was a 1st century Jesus that people should be Christian

Read the poll someone started on whether any of you have felt pressure to be Christian. The answer is pretty much “no,” at least not intensively or in a sustained way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

Plus this group of people were willing to die horrible deaths for it. Who does that for a figure that never existed?

[Anonymous]

The book of Mark is the oldest of the gospels
Jesus did live, a legend doesn't just change history

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People of faith are not expected to provide proof for beliefs that are based strictly on faith - and atheists are well aware of that. People of faith are usually quite proud of their ability to believe things without proof - it's what faith is all about..

See this here? This is the silver bullet to atheists that you guys are futilely typing/copying/pasting are ignoring.

“We know there is no evidence”
“We know there are no facts supporting these claims”
“We do not care”
“We believe it anyway”

There is no argument against this. End of game.

Agree, except that it's no so for the "Jesus walked the earth" people who think that just because some scholars think there was a 1st century Jesus that people should be Christian

Read the poll someone started on whether any of you have felt pressure to be Christian. The answer is pretty much “no,” at least not intensively or in a sustained way.

It's not a poll just because someone called it that. It's a series of questions posed by an anonymous internet user responded to by a few other anonymous internet users.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

Plus this group of people were willing to die horrible deaths for it. Who does that for a figure that never existed?

Maybe they didn't know at the time that his existence was in question. Maybe they wouldn't have cared. They were dying for their beliefs, one of which was that they would live forever after death if they died for Jesus. If you truly believe something like that, death loses its sting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People of faith are not expected to provide proof for beliefs that are based strictly on faith - and atheists are well aware of that. People of faith are usually quite proud of their ability to believe things without proof - it's what faith is all about..

See this here? This is the silver bullet to atheists that you guys are futilely typing/copying/pasting are ignoring.

“We know there is no evidence”
“We know there are no facts supporting these claims”
“We do not care”
“We believe it anyway”

There is no argument against this. End of game.

What game? the bolded area above was written by an atheist. Nice to know that a believer acknowledges it, but of course it doesn't apply to all believers.

Some believers actually think that Christian claims are factual, even though their religion is based on faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The book of Mark is the oldest of the gospels
Jesus did live, a legend doesn't just change history

So you believe the Koran is also true?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The book of Mark is the oldest of the gospels
Jesus did live, a legend doesn't just change history

So you believe the Koran is also true?

Good point!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
It's funny because I know many people who are atheists for whom atheism is essentially a religion. They have very strong beliefs are seem to be a mission to disprove religion. This is very different than just being not religious.

Yeah -- it takes all kinds. Some religious people quietly practice their religion while others feel a need to talk about it all the time, organize their lives around it and proselytize to others.

Some people are like that about other things, for instance, their hobbies, their families, politics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

Plus this group of people were willing to die horrible deaths for it. Who does that for a figure that never existed?

People do stupid things all of the time. Look at the people willing to die for Trump’s lies. And he’s a total POS not a promised “savior”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Certainly Paul was be-bopping all over Ancient Rome writing letters and starting churches within 50 years of his death. And his writings and behavior are much too organized to believe he was schizophrenic. So, where did this theology come from? Was there some group of crazy people who made it all up, including a central figure who never existed?

Plus this group of people were willing to die horrible deaths for it. Who does that for a figure that never existed?

Maybe they didn't know at the time that his existence was in question. Maybe they wouldn't have cared. They were dying for their beliefs, one of which was that they would live forever after death if they died for Jesus. If you truly believe something like that, death loses its sting.

Yup. Kamikaze pilots. 9/11 terrorists. Willingly died for their beliefs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The book of Mark is the oldest of the gospels
Jesus did live, a legend doesn't just change history

So you believe the Koran is also true?

NP. At least Muhammad was a real person. He had a "vision" not much different, IMHO, from Paul's "vision" on the road to Damscus. Today we know these as dreams and don't take them seriously, but they didn't know about dreams back then.

And as far as I know, the Popes emphasize how much respect they have for other religions, but will not agree you can get into heaven unless you are Christian. This leaves out about 7/8ths of the world's population.