Those who initiated divorce or separation, how did you do it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do not walk away until you have busted your ass to work on it with therapy both couples and individual. Don't try bi weekly therapy and say you tried. Change yourself. Be who you want your spouse to be. Work. Don't just complain.

and when you do that and nothing changes on the other's end, how do you cope? what is next?

Please also recognize that we can't make - it's unfair to expect - people to change. They are who they are - either love them as they are or don't (that's up to you) but be realistic about how much your counseling fixes rely on someone "changing". I think couples counseling can be extraordinarily useful when problems can be addressed by changing partner's perceptions and framing of issues, but I think it's of very limited value if you expect that the counselor will just "tell him|her to get some ambition"...or whatever it is that's bothering you.

i am the bolded PP above. thank you for writing this. i've been trying to articulate this. i don't want spouse to change their core self. it's more of how we interact and frame those interactions so that we both are getting what we need and deserve from each other in our relationship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First marriage I told him, he cried and begged me not to, then he signed papers and we were done. Second marriage I told him during couples counseling. He hit the roof and was horrible to me for months and then begged me not to leave after he'd already told my boss, our priest and a colleague that I am an "alcoholic whore." Both true in certain contexts but we divorced cause he likes to take it up the ass from men, doesn't like women, wouldn't work but put our kids in daycare from 7a-6:30 every day while he went to movies and napped and I came home from an 11-12-hour day to dishes, dinner to cook, laundry to do, etc. Drank over the sexless marriage thing and it became a problem with time. He asked for a hall pass but wouldn't give me one so I finally took it anyway. Things aren't always as they seem and spouses don't always react like we imagine they will.

Next time my DW complains about be, I am directing her to this epic description of what is the worst husband on DCUM, ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please also recognize that we can't make - it's unfair to expect - people to change. They are who they are - either love them as they are or don't (that's up to you) but be realistic about how much your counseling fixes rely on someone "changing". I think couples counseling can be extraordinarily useful when problems can be addressed by changing partner's perceptions and framing of issues, but I think it's of very limited value if you expect that the counselor will just "tell him|her to get some ambition"...or whatever it is that's bothering you.

i am the bolded PP above. thank you for writing this. i've been trying to articulate this. i don't want spouse to change their core self. it's more of how we interact and frame those interactions so that we both are getting what we need and deserve from each other in our relationship.

So, continuing the conversation...

When I say things like "change" - and I will use the example from my dead marriage - I mean things like constant negativity, or what was an unhappy, insecure (jealous and controlling) outlook. Those aren't things I could order my ex-wife to change, nor could a counselor. If she'd recognized them herself, and she wanted to go to individual counseling to get them fixed, then maybe then she could have achieved change. Some of those were things were things I probably could have learned to ignore - indeed, if I had learned to simply not engage in some of those things and let them suck me in/down, we would have survived.

Of course, there were problems I had that were all mine - of my own making - and even though I blamed them on the marriage, they followed me. Of course, when I was alone, there was nobody else to blame. Eventually, I had to work on them to make them go away - and while I've got improvement, I haven't completely made them go away. I've learned some self-acceptance, and when I was dating my now-wife, I put those out on display and my own self-acceptance out on display. I understand some things might be deal-breakers, and that's OK, but I accept me for me, and I accept her as she is, which isn't 100% perfect in every way.

I think this is the thing people get confused by in the "Settling" debate about a partner. My DW is truly a fabulous fit for me. I love her dearly. On all the key issues and questions we really are in-step with each other, share values and enjoy one another. There are some things neither of us likes about the other person. However, we aren't perfect soul mates and we don't need to be in 100% agreement about everything. Some disagreements can just be, because they don't impact what we do day-to-day, how we raise our child, where we live, etc. You "choose your battles" - you decide what is important, and what is not, and you choose to ignore and not worry about the things that truly aren't important.

Which circles back to my first paragraph above: you have to do some long hard thinking - and a counselor, often in individual sessions, can make an excellent sounding board for this - about what exactly it is you want from your partner, whether that's a realistic or reasonable expectation, and what it is that's bothering you about them, and why. I think many people, very often, express what it is they are upset about very poorly...largely because they themselves don't understand what they want or are upset about. There are so many examples on DCUM of this - bordering on [self-?]parody or low quality trolling - that it kills me. There are many many things I wish I'd simply not reacted to, or not engaged with in my first marriage - things that weren't important - and things which were important that I should've simply stood my ground on instead of seeking "communication and compromise" (because I engage a lot of silly game-playing and frustration in doing so).

I would urge you to see a counselor alone - not because you're nuts or you're the person who needs to change, or anything like that, but because you are the person who is unhappy. And sometimes processing what makes you unhappy will help you identify the issues more clearly. Sometimes it turns out you're OK with your spouse after all (gee, I thought I wanted this from you, but I realize that I don't, or I don't need to get it from you). Sometimes it helps clarify that you don't need to waste anyone's precious time and emotional energy fighting the tar baby.

[Anonymous]

pp again. thank you for continuing the conversation. you've clearly done a lot of hard work. i think you're spot on in many ways. i do see my own therapist and we see a joint one.

i like what you say about not engaging in the behaviors the other person can't or won't change. for example, when my spouse is in a bad mood and snide like this am b/c of oversleeping, i choose to not take it personally and not engage. my spouse often uses me as the proverbial dog to kick when in a bad mood. and while spouse is working on it, i try to not take it personally but also put my foot down about how he treats me in front of our child. it's a dance, like you indicate.

i also agree about articulating what your needs are. i've been very clear about them (took awhile to get there!) but there has been little momentum in meeting them. when i ask what my spouses needs are and how i can better meet them, spouse says they have no needs. so...that's why i've come to the place i'm at where i will do my best, work on being vulnerable (as in, not withdrawing b/c i don't expect a different response from my spouse than has been given in the past). basically, i need to put myself out there, and if it still changes nothing, i'll know i did everything i could.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First marriage I told him, he cried and begged me not to, then he signed papers and we were done. Second marriage I told him during couples counseling. He hit the roof and was horrible to me for months and then begged me not to leave after he'd already told my boss, our priest and a colleague that I am an "alcoholic whore." Both true in certain contexts but we divorced cause he likes to take it up the ass from men, doesn't like women, wouldn't work but put our kids in daycare from 7a-6:30 every day while he went to movies and napped and I came home from an 11-12-hour day to dishes, dinner to cook, laundry to do, etc. Drank over the sexless marriage thing and it became a problem with time. He asked for a hall pass but wouldn't give me one so I finally took it anyway. Things aren't always as they seem and spouses don't always react like we imagine they will.

I sense the lowest common denominator here is you...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First marriage I told him, he cried and begged me not to, then he signed papers and we were done. Second marriage I told him during couples counseling. He hit the roof and was horrible to me for months and then begged me not to leave after he'd already told my boss, our priest and a colleague that I am an "alcoholic whore." Both true in certain contexts but we divorced cause he likes to take it up the ass from men, doesn't like women, wouldn't work but put our kids in daycare from 7a-6:30 every day while he went to movies and napped and I came home from an 11-12-hour day to dishes, dinner to cook, laundry to do, etc. Drank over the sexless marriage thing and it became a problem with time. He asked for a hall pass but wouldn't give me one so I finally took it anyway. Things aren't always as they seem and spouses don't always react like we imagine they will.

Next time my DW complains about be, I am directing her to this epic description of what is the worst husband on DCUM, ever.

Who picks him? She picks some real winners, here.

This is why you don't marry two-time losers, guys.

[Anonymous]

He found search history on the computer when I google divorce in va. So he called while I was on the way home from work and was like wtf. I've never wanted to go home less than that day. So it was a forced conversation and came as a shock to him. He left at first and stayed with a friend for a week. Then I moved in with my parents for a month or so. I can't remember. We finally hammered out a deal in which if buy him out of the house, and I moved back in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:i like what you say about not engaging in the behaviors the other person can't or won't change. for example, when my spouse is in a bad mood and snide like this am b/c of oversleeping, i choose to not take it personally and not engage. my spouse often uses me as the proverbial dog to kick when in a bad mood. and while spouse is working on it, i try to not take it personally but also put my foot down about how he treats me in front of our child. it's a dance, like you indicate.

So, I think the key question has to be: does the behavior affect me (you)? My ex used to engage in a lot guilt/shaming manipulation and I was so determined to be "liked" as a husband that I turned into a doormat. I should have ignored a lot of her shaming - what I was doing was hardly anything to be ashamed of. If I had been less willing to be a doormat, she might've backed off, or she might've dumped me; either way: win!

I don't think being unpleasant to be around - and particularly the bit about being nasty in front of your kids - is something you should not take personally. I was really talking about things like being pissy because you went out with a girlfriend for dinner, or you used laundry detergent he didn't like. But the stuff with your kid, and the quasi-abusive behavior...you don't have to dump him over it, but you do need to model not putting up with it for your kid...like walking away and completely refusing to engage in a conversation when your husband is talking to you in a way which is disrespectful. I think contempt is at the root of most divorce (and I'm a Gottman fan) and it sounds like he speaks to you with contempt.

Anonymous wrote:i also agree about articulating what your needs are. i've been very clear about them (took awhile to get there!) but there has been little momentum in meeting them.

I think your spouse has given you your answer about "will things change"...no, they won't.

Anonymous wrote:when i ask what my spouses needs are and how i can better meet them, spouse says they have no needs. so...that's why i've come to the place i'm at where i will do my best, work on being vulnerable (as in, not withdrawing b/c i don't expect a different response from my spouse than has been given in the past). basically, i need to put myself out there, and if it still changes nothing, i'll know i did everything i could.

Do you really feel that you haven't already? I wound up being very angry and bitter at first because I arrived at the point where I felt I'd twisted myself into pretzels for YEARS trying to address the conflicts with my spouse, and I felt like my needs/desires/requests/wants were just paid lip service and ignored. In hindsight, I don't think I changed as much as I had believed I had at the time, and I also think I was expecting things of my spouse that simply weren't reasonable to expect: she really couldn't deliver them, even if she wanted to. Rather than continue to question or doubt yourself, perhaps consider that you've already gone the distance and that your spouse has done their best to give you what you want, and it's just not going to happen...don't stay out of a fear of guilt or a desire for vindication.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, I think the key question has to be: does the behavior affect me (you)? ...I don't think being unpleasant to be around - and particularly the bit about being nasty in front of your kids - is something you should not take personally. I was really talking about things like being pissy because you went out with a girlfriend for dinner, or you used laundry detergent he didn't like. But the stuff with your kid, and the quasi-abusive behavior...you don't have to dump him over it, but you do need to model not putting up with it for your kid...like walking away and completely refusing to engage in a conversation when your husband is talking to you in a way which is disrespectful. I think contempt is at the root of most divorce (and I'm a Gottman fan) and it sounds like he speaks to you with contempt.

dude, i think you may be better than my therapist. you have a great perspective. ok. he will get irrationally angry with me over things he shouldn't, but he does recognize it and has worked on it. it's not as bad as it used to be. i make sure i tell him when i notice the change or that he's worked on it. and yes, contempt. it's there sometimes (though he can just be that way in general as a person), but i more worry about an absence of emotion towards me and the fact that we just don't seem to have fun. i want to have fun in my marriage!

Anonymous wrote:I think your spouse has given you your answer about "will things change"...no, they won't...Rather than continue to question or doubt yourself, perhaps consider that you've already gone the distance and that your spouse has done their best to give you what you want, and it's just not going to happen...don't stay out of a fear of guilt or a desire for vindication.

excellent points. i don't feel we've quite reached the end of the road just yet. i'm not convinced that i myself have done my best, which is why i'm concentrating on putting my all in. i also know that if nothing still changes, i don't think it's necessarily that he's a bad person or wishes me ill. it's just that together we don't work and it sucks, but it's ok.