Bystnader to an abusive relationship

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP is indeed interfering. I can bet that if you analyzed OP's childhood, you'd find dysfunction that manifested in OP and in her siblings in different ways.

OP's husband subconsciously likes to be controlled and most likely stays away from conflict. I've seen this 1000 times over in friends who grew up with controlling parents.

They either control or like to be controlled. It's all a power struggle.

OP makes her sibling out to be the victim, but again, if he allows himself to be placed in that role, it's not exactly his wife's fault then, is it?

She needs to mind her own business b/c she has NO control over her brother's choices.

Wow. So what if genders were reversed, would you still think OP was interfering? Women can be emotionally abusive, and giving OP the benefit of the doubt, that sounds like the situation here. The really hard part is the kids - if the wife is controlling/ borderline with the husband, then she will be abusive with the kids too. It is so hard to know what do do in these cases because divorce may not protect the kids from her. He needs counseling and to make sure he is always his kids' protector - which means he has to stop catering to the wife.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is indeed interfering. I can bet that if you analyzed OP's childhood, you'd find dysfunction that manifested in OP and in her siblings in different ways.

OP's husband subconsciously likes to be controlled and most likely stays away from conflict. I've seen this 1000 times over in friends who grew up with controlling parents.

They either control or like to be controlled. It's all a power struggle.

OP makes her sibling out to be the victim, but again, if he allows himself to be placed in that role, it's not exactly his wife's fault then, is it?

She needs to mind her own business b/c she has NO control over her brother's choices.

Wow. So what if genders were reversed, would you still think OP was interfering? Women can be emotionally abusive, and giving OP the benefit of the doubt, that sounds like the situation here. The really hard part is the kids - if the wife is controlling/ borderline with the husband, then she will be abusive with the kids too. It is so hard to know what do do in these cases because divorce may not protect the kids from her. He needs counseling and to make sure he is always his kids' protector - which means he has to stop catering to the wife.

+1

PP's excuse making is terrifying. I grew up in an abusive and controlling home - I do not control others, and I don't like to be controlled. All relationships require a reciprocal exchange - all healthy relationships, at least. Taking advantage of someone else's childhood (or one's own) is no excuse for abusive behavior. I agree that if the genders were reversed, pp's tone would probably be different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is indeed interfering. I can bet that if you analyzed OP's childhood, you'd find dysfunction that manifested in OP and in her siblings in different ways.

OP's husband subconsciously likes to be controlled and most likely stays away from conflict. I've seen this 1000 times over in friends who grew up with controlling parents.

They either control or like to be controlled. It's all a power struggle.

OP makes her sibling out to be the victim, but again, if he allows himself to be placed in that role, it's not exactly his wife's fault then, is it?

She needs to mind her own business b/c she has NO control over her brother's choices.

Wow. So what if genders were reversed, would you still think OP was interfering? Women can be emotionally abusive, and giving OP the benefit of the doubt, that sounds like the situation here. The really hard part is the kids - if the wife is controlling/ borderline with the husband, then she will be abusive with the kids too. It is so hard to know what do do in these cases because divorce may not protect the kids from her. He needs counseling and to make sure he is always his kids' protector - which means he has to stop catering to the wife.

Then this thread would have been 5 pages long already, and all with responses supporting the OP without question and urging her to get her sibling help.

Women are just as capable of being abusers and terrible spouses/parents as men.

[Anonymous]

OP, I could have written your post. Then one day, I essentially told my brother it was hard to watch them. Well, months later he suddenly left her. It's a difficult situation now and I don't know what will happen with their separation.

I think in my case I was tired of acting like everything was OK when it wasn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is indeed interfering. I can bet that if you analyzed OP's childhood, you'd find dysfunction that manifested in OP and in her siblings in different ways.

OP's husband subconsciously likes to be controlled and most likely stays away from conflict. I've seen this 1000 times over in friends who grew up with controlling parents.

They either control or like to be controlled. It's all a power struggle.

OP makes her sibling out to be the victim, but again, if he allows himself to be placed in that role, it's not exactly his wife's fault then, is it?

She needs to mind her own business b/c she has NO control over her brother's choices.

Wow. So what if genders were reversed, would you still think OP was interfering? Women can be emotionally abusive, and giving OP the benefit of the doubt, that sounds like the situation here. The really hard part is the kids - if the wife is controlling/ borderline with the husband, then she will be abusive with the kids too. It is so hard to know what do do in these cases because divorce may not protect the kids from her. He needs counseling and to make sure he is always his kids' protector - which means he has to stop catering to the wife.

male or female - same difference

Victims attract abusers. Until the victim wakes up, stop interfering. If OP addresses this more forcefully with her brother, he'll cut her off. I told my friend she was in an abusive relationship, and for years - until she finally divorced him - we didn't speak.

MYOB

[Anonymous]

My dad was the abuser in my parents' relationship. It was horrific. My mom's brother and mother were very supportive but as far as my dad knew, my mother had cut off all contact with them.

I think a PPs advice to be neutral about everything is good. Your brother knows what his wife is like and nothing you do/say will make any difference on his decision to leave his wife. You don't have to be around her but be willing to be there for him and his kids. This is so sad.

[Anonymous]

As a DV survivor I've found DCUM to be a terrible place for support.

As you can see above ^^plenty of people like to victim-blame rather than understand that abusers ar controlling, manipulative people. They isolate the victim, restrict finances, and manipulate to make the victim feel like s/he is the problem. I disagree that men & women are both equally<\i> capable of abuse. Men are far more likely to be abusers for many reasons, but that's not entirely relevant to this discussion.

OP, could you explain more about what you've witnessed first hand vs what you've heard about? What is your brother thinking and feeling regarding leaving his marriage? Does he have the financial resources to do so? Do you live close and could you provide child care or other support for him leaving? Does he self-report being a DV victim? Does he have insurance to pursue counseling?

[Anonymous]

Op here.
I appreciate those who offered support or who have been in similar situations.

My bother has zero intentions of leaving his wife. He feels this is just his lot in life - he chose her and that is that. He is very negative about himself though, has almost no self confidence anymore and can't make any decisions for himself. He is very 'weak' in a way now in that he no longer seems to have the strength to do anything except go along with her and try and keep her happy. I think he is pretty depressed. Also my SIL has told him if he ever tries to leave her, she will take the kids and go back to her home country. My brother does more parenting than she does and is very, very close to the kids and would never take the chance of losing them.

They went to a therapist a few times. My SIL sobbed through the sessions and promised to be nicer but nothing really changed and my brother was scared to say too much in case she just use that against him at home.

I have seen her emotionally and verbally abuse him. I have seen her lose her temper and call him all kinds of names. I have seen her tell him he is useless and worthless and tear a strip off of him. If she does that in front of others, I have no doubt she does more at home. We have talked to her about it a few times when it has been very public but all that did was make it worse for my brother at home and he asked us to just ignore her anger when we see it. She makes many demands of him that we see - she is always ordering him around, telling him what to do or not to do and she expects him to wait on her hand and foot. He is very passive with her, saying and doing whatever she wants him to say or do.

I have seen her get quite angry at the oldest child too. Parenting doesn't come 'naturally' for her and she gets frustrated very easily. She usually has my brother deal with the kids as she can't.

We do provide a lot of support in terms of child care and other support in the hopes of relieving some of her stress and in doing so, hoping she will treat him better. There are occasions when she is very nice to my brother and I think that just confuses him more. She will buy him something nice or surprise him with his favorite meal etc. I am not sure if this is out of guilt or just to keep him confused, or if she is confused as well and really does love him but just can't control her temper and anger.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op here.
I appreciate those who offered support or who have been in similar situations.

My bother has zero intentions of leaving his wife. He feels this is just his lot in life - he chose her and that is that. He is very negative about himself though, has almost no self confidence anymore and can't make any decisions for himself. He is very 'weak' in a way now in that he no longer seems to have the strength to do anything except go along with her and try and keep her happy. I think he is pretty depressed. Also my SIL has told him if he ever tries to leave her, she will take the kids and go back to her home country. My brother does more parenting than she does and is very, very close to the kids and would never take the chance of losing them.

They went to a therapist a few times. My SIL sobbed through the sessions and promised to be nicer but nothing really changed and my brother was scared to say too much in case she just use that against him at home.

I have seen her emotionally and verbally abuse him. I have seen her lose her temper and call him all kinds of names. I have seen her tell him he is useless and worthless and tear a strip off of him. If she does that in front of others, I have no doubt she does more at home. We have talked to her about it a few times when it has been very public but all that did was make it worse for my brother at home and he asked us to just ignore her anger when we see it. She makes many demands of him that we see - she is always ordering him around, telling him what to do or not to do and she expects him to wait on her hand and foot. He is very passive with her, saying and doing whatever she wants him to say or do.

I have seen her get quite angry at the oldest child too. Parenting doesn't come 'naturally' for her and she gets frustrated very easily. She usually has my brother deal with the kids as she can't.

We do provide a lot of support in terms of child care and other support in the hopes of relieving some of her stress and in doing so, hoping she will treat him better. There are occasions when she is very nice to my brother and I think that just confuses him more. She will buy him something nice or surprise him with his favorite meal etc. I am not sure if this is out of guilt or just to keep him confused, or if she is confused as well and really does love him but just can't control her temper and anger.

Omg, go see a lawyer so that you can see how your brother can leave with the kids. And get your siblings to do an intervention with your brother, without sil knowing. That is awful. I feel sorry for him.

[Anonymous]

Does she control their finances? Does she make more money than him?

Besides you, does he have any other family & friends?

[Anonymous]

You punch the broad right smack dab in the face and tell her to watch how she treats your brother. Tell her from now on anytime you so much as SUSPECT that she is being abusive you will find her and whoop her ass.

[Anonymous]

I have seen her emotionally and verbally abuse him. I have seen her lose her temper and call him all kinds of names. I have seen her tell him he is useless and worthless and tear a strip off of him. If she does that in front of others, I have no doubt she does more at home. We have talked to her about it a few times when it has been very public but all that did was make it worse for my brother at home and he asked us to just ignore her anger when we see it. She makes many demands of him that we see - she is always ordering him around, telling him what to do or not to do and she expects him to wait on her hand and foot. He is very passive with her, saying and doing whatever she wants him to say or do.

18:36 here. I hope when this done in front of you - especially in front of your or your brother's kids - you call your SIL on it. You can't control what your SIL does in private but you can control (to a point) what you and the kids witness. From a child's perspective, I can tell you that witnessing this done to your loved one can be as damaging (or more) as being the direct recipient. It's important for kids to know that this behavior is not the norm and that there are people with the strength to push back. I don't recall if you mentioned the ages of your brother's kids but I hope they know they can call you anytime and you'll pick them up. Knowing they can do that can be so reassuring.

Something is wrong with your brother. I don't mean that in a snarky way but his thinking is messed up. My mother had thinking like that. I know part of it is because he's in the midst of it and can't see how eff'd up it is. I'm sure part of it is depression. I don't know if you can help him with it but as a PP suggested, going to see an attorney and developing a plan could do wonders. Your SIL can't take the kids out of the country without your brother's permission. She's twisting information to manipulate your brother. I'm sure you know that but that your brother is buying into it is another indication of how messed up his thinking is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I have seen her emotionally and verbally abuse him. I have seen her lose her temper and call him all kinds of names. I have seen her tell him he is useless and worthless and tear a strip off of him. If she does that in front of others, I have no doubt she does more at home. We have talked to her about it a few times when it has been very public but all that did was make it worse for my brother at home and he asked us to just ignore her anger when we see it. She makes many demands of him that we see - she is always ordering him around, telling him what to do or not to do and she expects him to wait on her hand and foot. He is very passive with her, saying and doing whatever she wants him to say or do.

18:36 here. I hope when this done in front of you - especially in front of your or your brother's kids - you call your SIL on it. You can't control what your SIL does in private but you can control (to a point) what you and the kids witness. From a child's perspective, I can tell you that witnessing this done to your loved one can be as damaging (or more) as being the direct recipient. It's important for kids to know that this behavior is not the norm and that there are people with the strength to push back. I don't recall if you mentioned the ages of your brother's kids but I hope they know they can call you anytime and you'll pick them up. Knowing they can do that can be so reassuring.

Something is wrong with your brother. I don't mean that in a snarky way but his thinking is messed up. My mother had thinking like that. I know part of it is because he's in the midst of it and can't see how eff'd up it is. I'm sure part of it is depression. I don't know if you can help him with it but as a PP suggested, going to see an attorney and developing a plan could do wonders. Your SIL can't take the kids out of the country without your brother's permission. She's twisting information to manipulate your brother. I'm sure you know that but that your brother is buying into it is another indication of how messed up his thinking is.

There are ways she could get around that, and his recourse in getting them back could depend on what country we are talking about. She sounds nuts enough to make off with them without any notice, so be careful.

This is terrible, OP, and I wish I had more advice for you. Could you consult someone privately--an attorney?--who could give you some advice? Is she a U.S. citizen? The only thing I can offer you is this: document, document, document. Sit down and THINK HARD about dates and incidences. Write them down. Be thorough. Be dispassionate--ie, keep it fact-based, no opinion (like, she was acting like a crazy bitch). From here forward keep a log of everything you witness firsthand and everything you hear from your brother or the kids. You never know what will happen, but it cannot hurt to document. He may need this someday. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

OP how old are the kids and what do you observe about their behavior? How do they act towards their dad? Towards their mom? I have worked with dysfunctional families for decades. In situations like this where one parent is broken and cannot stand up for themself, and especially where htey say they're "staying for the kids", I focus my energy in trying to support them on their kids.

I point out that kids always know what's going on, and they learn what is modelled for them, not what is said. I ask the abused/broken parent "If your kids were grown and in the exact situation, what would you want them to do? If htey were living walking on eggshells and had a partner who yelled/insulted/terrified/whatever the wife is doing, how would you want them to react?" Almost always the answer is they'd want their child to leave. "Well, how do you expect your kids to learn that if you don't model it for them? They are learning that abuse (or if he's in denial about being abused, call it "bad behaviour" or "hurtful behavior" "negative behavior" whatever works) kids are learning every day that you tolerate it, placate it, live with it, let it control you and your family.

And the outcomes of learning that are AWFUL. Kids grow up drastically more likely to be abused or abusers. To not know how to stand up for themselves - on the playground, in a date-rape situation, in jobs, in relationships. They get walked all over or they walk all over. Is that what your brother wants for his kids? Because that's what they're learning.

This is the tact I often take (but more professionally and not so up front, depending on the relationship I have with the family and the urgency of acting). I appeal to the fact that most parents think they're doing what's best fo rtheir kids. I show them how they are complicit in doing HARM to the kids by letting this go on like this. Then you offer concrete next steps. Like legal planning for a back up escape plan. I don't jump to "leave the abuser", but I do know that abusive people can sense when their partner is getting a little empowered, seeing things a little differently. I believe in helping battered or broken partners plan ahead. What are the child custody laws like there? Is he the income-earning spouse? He needs to see a lawyer. Also find out what resources are in his area for victimes of abuse, especially male victims. Connect him with a hotline to just help him see that his situation is not acceptable, not going to help anyone, and is hurting everyone. And to know what his options are.

Lastly, since you're his sister and you love him and are worried, educate yourself. Find a local resource to you re: domestic violence and call them as a concerned sibling, ask them what advice they have for you. What conversations to try to have.

In a situation like this, the broken family member is often so broken, they can't see a way out. It might take the abusive spouse physically abusing a child to wake them up. But don't fool yourself, the fact that she takes all her anger out on him does NOT mean the kids aren't affected negatively. You may be the only person with a relationshiop to your brother that can help him take the first steps to see the situation, and address it. Please don't give up on him if he seems unwilling/unable to see things or take a step. Try as much as you can to be patient and to hang in for him, but only as much as you can without hurting yourself or your own family.

Good luck, he's lucky to have a sister who sees what's going on and who wants to help. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I have seen her emotionally and verbally abuse him. I have seen her lose her temper and call him all kinds of names. I have seen her tell him he is useless and worthless and tear a strip off of him. If she does that in front of others, I have no doubt she does more at home. We have talked to her about it a few times when it has been very public but all that did was make it worse for my brother at home and he asked us to just ignore her anger when we see it. She makes many demands of him that we see - she is always ordering him around, telling him what to do or not to do and she expects him to wait on her hand and foot. He is very passive with her, saying and doing whatever she wants him to say or do.

18:36 here. I hope when this done in front of you - especially in front of your or your brother's kids - you call your SIL on it. You can't control what your SIL does in private but you can control (to a point) what you and the kids witness. From a child's perspective, I can tell you that witnessing this done to your loved one can be as damaging (or more) as being the direct recipient. It's important for kids to know that this behavior is not the norm and that there are people with the strength to push back. I don't recall if you mentioned the ages of your brother's kids but I hope they know they can call you anytime and you'll pick them up. Knowing they can do that can be so reassuring.

Something is wrong with your brother. I don't mean that in a snarky way but his thinking is messed up. My mother had thinking like that. I know part of it is because he's in the midst of it and can't see how eff'd up it is. I'm sure part of it is depression. I don't know if you can help him with it but as a PP suggested, going to see an attorney and developing a plan could do wonders. Your SIL can't take the kids out of the country without your brother's permission. She's twisting information to manipulate your brother. I'm sure you know that but that your brother is buying into it is another indication of how messed up his thinking is.

This is SO TRUE. Your brother's kids need to have an adult address their mom in front of them and point out that she is acting inappropriately and it's damaging everyone who witnesses it. I would even use the word abuse. Truth is OP, it's just going to get worse and your brother sounds totally beaten into the ground and unable to act. Which also means he's unable to protect his kids, even though in his mind he probably thinks he IS protecting htem by trying to appease their crazy mom.

But be prepared. If his wife sees you as someone who is going to get in the way of her power dynamic, she will probably try to cut off contact between them and your family. Help your brother access some resources for battered spouses first, help him understand the effect that witnessing all this is having on his kids, and help him start to be able to see a bit more clearly, do some planning (like legal planning, and frankly, documenting her abuse), and helping him to have a plan. That is the most important, even more so than calling the mom out as inappropriate in front of her kids. Because that will most likely trigger her trying to separate her family from your family.