Any big law moms with 3 kids (or more)?

[Anonymous]

I know a female partner at a big law firm who has three kids. Her husband works full-time at a (bit) less demanding job. They have a lot of help on the domestic front. Full-tme nanny/housekeeper, part-time personal manager, and one set of grandparents who are local and are very helpful in ferrying the kids after school and on the weekends. The answer is lots of outside help.

This woman has basically outsourced her LIFE.

[Anonymous]

I am not surprised by these responses. I started in biglaw but left long before I had kids for practice reasons (the clients in my area don't typically hire biglaw). While I was there I met a ton of working moms who were making it work. How? Husbands. They typically had husbands at home or less demanding jobs. But let's face it, most working men (including those at my small firm who really don't need it) have SAHMs. So I have never understood the attacks on women who make the same choices as those men. But I don't see a really workable way to be partner in biglaw without that at home. Yes you could outsource but most moms wouldn't feel good about that. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Female BIGLAW partner with two kids here who can attest that a number of my partners (women) have more than two kids, and their husbands are in demanding professional jobs. They don't have tons of nannies and helpers, though some have family nearby--just your standard daycare or nanny arrangement. some do work a reduced hour schedule (and MADE partner while on a reduced hour schedule), while others (like me) go full time.

What makes this possible?

1) Technology! We're all doing business by email and phone, no one routinely meets in person anymore. Take advantage of your firm's technology. Don't bother with negotiating "telecommuting policies" or getting permission to work outside the office--just work from where you need to, and don't bother explaining. If you're doing your work, we don't care where you are. Of course, there are some exceptions to this rule--but those lawyers tend to be fewer and fewer these days, especially as you get more senior.

2) Being realistic. If you need to hire more help, do it. Cleaning your house takes hours you could be spending with your kids, or finishing a brief late at night. If you need to work fewer hours, because you want to be with your kids, or are dying getting to daycare in traffic at 6 every day, then work fewer hours.

3) Above all, don't apologize to anyone at the firm, or act like having more kids is a problem for the firm. We working mothers make the firms a ton of money, and work 500 times harder than any other lawyer in these places.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

it's "not fair" in general and to other associates who have not had the same time off.

Well. Does the firm offer as a benefit the same number of weeks off, paid, for childless associates to explore personal development? Care of a relative? Paternity leave? Four months off, paid, to do a community service project of the childless associate's choice?

My guess is probably not.

I say this as a mother, who actually supports maternity leave though it doesn't sound like it. But let's not pretend that it feels super fair to those who don't get that benefit and never will.

Oh brother. They DO get that benefit, if they give birth to a child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Female BIGLAW partner with two kids here who can attest that a number of my partners (women) have more than two kids, and their husbands are in demanding professional jobs. They don't have tons of nannies and helpers, though some have family nearby--just your standard daycare or nanny arrangement. some do work a reduced hour schedule (and MADE partner while on a reduced hour schedule), while others (like me) go full time.

What makes this possible?

1) Technology! We're all doing business by email and phone, no one routinely meets in person anymore. Take advantage of your firm's technology. Don't bother with negotiating "telecommuting policies" or getting permission to work outside the office--just work from where you need to, and don't bother explaining. If you're doing your work, we don't care where you are. Of course, there are some exceptions to this rule--but those lawyers tend to be fewer and fewer these days, especially as you get more senior.

2) Being realistic. If you need to hire more help, do it. Cleaning your house takes hours you could be spending with your kids, or finishing a brief late at night. If you need to work fewer hours, because you want to be with your kids, or are dying getting to daycare in traffic at 6 every day, then work fewer hours.

3) Above all, don't apologize to anyone at the firm, or act like having more kids is a problem for the firm. We working mothers make the firms a ton of money, and work 500 times harder than any other lawyer in these places.

Love this post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

it's "not fair" in general and to other associates who have not had the same time off.

Well. Does the firm offer as a benefit the same number of weeks off, paid, for childless associates to explore personal development? Care of a relative? Paternity leave? Four months off, paid, to do a community service project of the childless associate's choice?

My guess is probably not.

I say this as a mother, who actually supports maternity leave though it doesn't sound like it. But let's not pretend that it feels super fair to those who don't get that benefit and never will.

Oh brother. They DO get that benefit, if they give birth to a child.

Maybe you've heard? Not everyone gives birth to a child. If they don't, then they forego 6 mos paid leave at most places.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Female BIGLAW partner with two kids here who can attest that a number of my partners (women) have more than two kids, and their husbands are in demanding professional jobs. They don't have tons of nannies and helpers, though some have family nearby--just your standard daycare or nanny arrangement. some do work a reduced hour schedule (and MADE partner while on a reduced hour schedule), while others (like me) go full time.

What makes this possible?

1) Technology! We're all doing business by email and phone, no one routinely meets in person anymore. Take advantage of your firm's technology. Don't bother with negotiating "telecommuting policies" or getting permission to work outside the office--just work from where you need to, and don't bother explaining. If you're doing your work, we don't care where you are. Of course, there are some exceptions to this rule--but those lawyers tend to be fewer and fewer these days, especially as you get more senior.

2) Being realistic. If you need to hire more help, do it. Cleaning your house takes hours you could be spending with your kids, or finishing a brief late at night. If you need to work fewer hours, because you want to be with your kids, or are dying getting to daycare in traffic at 6 every day, then work fewer hours.

3) Above all, don't apologize to anyone at the firm, or act like having more kids is a problem for the firm. We working mothers make the firms a ton of money, and work 500 times harder than any other lawyer in these places.

Love this post.

You can do all this and still not make partner -- I'm not saying that you are suggesting these are the tips to partnership. But just because certain biglaw firms are ok with people logging in from anywhere, there are many others where there are unspoken face time requirements and the like and even if you work more than the men, your need for "flexibility" is still looked down upon. So it isn't as easy as you're making it sound. -Signed, a biglaw senior who just got home at 1 am and is unwinding now before bed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Female BIGLAW partner with two kids here who can attest that a number of my partners (women) have more than two kids, and their husbands are in demanding professional jobs. They don't have tons of nannies and helpers, though some have family nearby--just your standard daycare or nanny arrangement. some do work a reduced hour schedule (and MADE partner while on a reduced hour schedule), while others (like me) go full time.

What makes this possible?

1) Technology! We're all doing business by email and phone, no one routinely meets in person anymore. Take advantage of your firm's technology. Don't bother with negotiating "telecommuting policies" or getting permission to work outside the office--just work from where you need to, and don't bother explaining. If you're doing your work, we don't care where you are. Of course, there are some exceptions to this rule--but those lawyers tend to be fewer and fewer these days, especially as you get more senior.

2) Being realistic. If you need to hire more help, do it. Cleaning your house takes hours you could be spending with your kids, or finishing a brief late at night. If you need to work fewer hours, because you want to be with your kids, or are dying getting to daycare in traffic at 6 every day, then work fewer hours.

3) Above all, don't apologize to anyone at the firm, or act like having more kids is a problem for the firm. We working mothers make the firms a ton of money, and work 500 times harder than any other lawyer in these places.

Love this post.

I don't at all because of the last sentence. I don't doubt that this woman works hard, but she does not know the details of other people's home lives and it is a bit insulting that she thinks that she works "500 times harder" than other people in big law just because she has a kid. In terms of performance at work, my DH is a big law partner and I work in big law myself and it seems like the link between being a parent and being one of the partners who goes the extra mile, take on the extra responsibility in the office, and never lets a colleagues down is pretty weak. Some of the people who do this are parents and some of the people aren't, but being a parent, and being a mother especially, does not seem to make you more likely (or less likely) to be a great firm citizen. People are all different and mothers are just as likely to be selfish bastards (or thoughtful colleagues) as anyone else. Like any other group, some of them are hard working and some of them cut corners and expect others to cover for them far too often.

I also don't get the advice to "just work fewer hours." I don't know what kind of firm she works at, but that is just not realistic at most firms. As a partner, my husband has clients who expect the work to get done. I guess if you work in a huge practice group where you are one of a dozen partners sharing billing on a big case you might be able to get away with this. But, if you have landed your own business and there is no one else to handle the direct client interactions, you have to work whenever and wherever. Since most firms are scaling back on making service partners, you are more likely to be in the first camp than the second if you are a young attorney trying to make it in the profession today. I don't doubt the PPs experience, but I think she is exaggerating what is possible for most lawyers at most big law firms in most practice areas of the law. Telecommuting is great and my DH does it when he can, but he has client meetings many days of the week and travels at least one week out of the month. His practice is a bit high in these areas, but telecommuting is not quite as easy as the PP says for most law partners. Most have firm administration responsibilities and client responsibilities that requires their actual presence a good majority of the time.

I think it is possible that the PP is a bit older and made partner a while ago. I say this because back during the boom days I knew a handful of women who made partner on a reduced schedule, but none since the crash. Making partner is much harder now that firms are less profitable and they are not brooking any deviations from the standard unless you are single-handedly bringing in a huge book of business. I am not trying to be deliberately argumentative with this post, but I think that when women come on here and post things about how you can "have it all," especially if you are superhuman and work "500 times harder" than everybody else, it often gives an inaccurate view of the actualities of working in the profession in 2012. It was different even ten years ago when I got out of law school. It might not seem like things have changed when you are sitting in a partner's office and have been for a while, but that is the reality down in the trenches of the profession.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Female BIGLAW partner with two kids here who can attest that a number of my partners (women) have more than two kids, and their husbands are in demanding professional jobs. They don't have tons of nannies and helpers, though some have family nearby--just your standard daycare or nanny arrangement. some do work a reduced hour schedule (and MADE partner while on a reduced hour schedule), while others (like me) go full time.

What makes this possible?

1) Technology! We're all doing business by email and phone, no one routinely meets in person anymore. Take advantage of your firm's technology. Don't bother with negotiating "telecommuting policies" or getting permission to work outside the office--just work from where you need to, and don't bother explaining. If you're doing your work, we don't care where you are. Of course, there are some exceptions to this rule--but those lawyers tend to be fewer and fewer these days, especially as you get more senior.

2) Being realistic. If you need to hire more help, do it. Cleaning your house takes hours you could be spending with your kids, or finishing a brief late at night. If you need to work fewer hours, because you want to be with your kids, or are dying getting to daycare in traffic at 6 every day, then work fewer hours.

3) Above all, don't apologize to anyone at the firm, or act like having more kids is a problem for the firm. We working mothers make the firms a ton of money, and work 500 times harder than any other lawyer in these places.

This advice ONLY works if the partner and clients you work for are on board with it. It's definitely not as easy as you make it sound and you are living in a box if you think all mothers can succeed by following these tip.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked by these posts, but in a good way. I was not treated well when I announced only one pregnancy at my firm. I went back recently and it's obvious that they want me out. The attitude seems to be that I got a paid vacation and that it's "not fair" in general and to other associates who have not had the same time off. Has no one else had this experience?

Part of the problem may be the very generous maternity benefits that law firms give. My firm gives six months paid leave. It was great for me and I took every day I was entitled to, as does every woman at my firm. However, I am not blind to the fact that with two kids, I got a year of paid leave that others didn't get, including all the men at my firm with two kids. Couple that with the fact that many, many women at my firm take the six months paid and then don't come back to work and you have a recipe for some well-deserved resentment.

I think that the woman can diffuse some of this by being a team player while on maternity leave (checking blackberry and responding to e-mails when it is helpful, etc.) and being a real team player when she returns. That is what I did and I have an associate who had a baby last year and has transited back seamlessly. The ones who have met resistance are the ones who come back and make extra demands about their schedule, don't seem like a team player, don't seem like they are committed to their practice long term. I would also point out that myself and my associate who came back without a problem both have nannies and husbands with government jobs with very predictable 40 hr/ week schedules, so childcare headaches are largely not ours to handle. This flexibility is true of most of the wives of the men at my firm with kids as well and I don't think it is fair when big law women don't realize that their families have to make the same tradeoffs and compromises that men in big law make. Either hire an army of help or have one parent take the lead at home by staying at home or having a less demanding job.

The point I was trying to make in the previous post is that people are angry about the leave itself. I'm surprised to see that people are returning to little to no resentment from colleagues about their leave period, when this has not been my experience. Just so you know, my career aspirations have not changed, nor has my schedule, but it is clear that people are annoyed about my "paid vacation."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked by these posts, but in a good way. I was not treated well when I announced only one pregnancy at my firm. I went back recently and it's obvious that they want me out. The attitude seems to be that I got a paid vacation and that it's "not fair" in general and to other associates who have not had the same time off. Has no one else had this experience?

Part of the problem may be the very generous maternity benefits that law firms give. My firm gives six months paid leave. It was great for me and I took every day I was entitled to, as does every woman at my firm. However, I am not blind to the fact that with two kids, I got a year of paid leave that others didn't get, including all the men at my firm with two kids. Couple that with the fact that many, many women at my firm take the six months paid and then don't come back to work and you have a recipe for some well-deserved resentment.

I think that the woman can diffuse some of this by being a team player while on maternity leave (checking blackberry and responding to e-mails when it is helpful, etc.) and being a real team player when she returns. That is what I did and I have an associate who had a baby last year and has transited back seamlessly. The ones who have met resistance are the ones who come back and make extra demands about their schedule, don't seem like a team player, don't seem like they are committed to their practice long term. I would also point out that myself and my associate who came back without a problem both have nannies and husbands with government jobs with very predictable 40 hr/ week schedules, so childcare headaches are largely not ours to handle. This flexibility is true of most of the wives of the men at my firm with kids as well and I don't think it is fair when big law women don't realize that their families have to make the same tradeoffs and compromises that men in big law make. Either hire an army of help or have one parent take the lead at home by staying at home or having a less demanding job.

The point I was trying to make in the previous post is that people are angry about the leave itself. I'm surprised to see that people are returning to little to no resentment from colleagues about their leave period, when this has not been my experience. Just so you know, my career aspirations have not changed, nor has my schedule, but it is clear that people are annoyed about my "paid vacation."

My experience has been that the people who are team players, who are appreciative of the fact that their colleagues did extra work to cover for their leave, and, most importantly, had a track record of covering for others when they had family commitments or childcare challenges both before and after their own leaves, do not face any resentment. But, the people who aren't team players, who do not express an understanding that their leave is an inconvenience to others, even if it is unavoidable, who don't cover for others, and who engage in a lot of boundary drawing about what they will and will not do in terms of work face a significant amount of resentment. If you are getting a negative reaction from your co-workers, perhaps you need to examine your own behavior and make sure that you are treating others as you would like to be treated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked by these posts, but in a good way. I was not treated well when I announced only one pregnancy at my firm. I went back recently and it's obvious that they want me out. The attitude seems to be that I got a paid vacation and that it's "not fair" in general and to other associates who have not had the same time off. Has no one else had this experience?

Part of the problem may be the very generous maternity benefits that law firms give. My firm gives six months paid leave. It was great for me and I took every day I was entitled to, as does every woman at my firm. However, I am not blind to the fact that with two kids, I got a year of paid leave that others didn't get, including all the men at my firm with two kids. Couple that with the fact that many, many women at my firm take the six months paid and then don't come back to work and you have a recipe for some well-deserved resentment.

I think that the woman can diffuse some of this by being a team player while on maternity leave (checking blackberry and responding to e-mails when it is helpful, etc.) and being a real team player when she returns. That is what I did and I have an associate who had a baby last year and has transited back seamlessly. The ones who have met resistance are the ones who come back and make extra demands about their schedule, don't seem like a team player, don't seem like they are committed to their practice long term. I would also point out that myself and my associate who came back without a problem both have nannies and husbands with government jobs with very predictable 40 hr/ week schedules, so childcare headaches are largely not ours to handle. This flexibility is true of most of the wives of the men at my firm with kids as well and I don't think it is fair when big law women don't realize that their families have to make the same tradeoffs and compromises that men in big law make. Either hire an army of help or have one parent take the lead at home by staying at home or having a less demanding job.

The point I was trying to make in the previous post is that people are angry about the leave itself. I'm surprised to see that people are returning to little to no resentment from colleagues about their leave period, when this has not been my experience. Just so you know, my career aspirations have not changed, nor has my schedule, but it is clear that people are annoyed about my "paid vacation."

My experience has been that the people who are team players, who are appreciative of the fact that their colleagues did extra work to cover for their leave, and, most importantly, had a track record of covering for others when they had family commitments or childcare challenges both before and after their own leaves, do not face any resentment. But, the people who aren't team players, who do not express an understanding that their leave is an inconvenience to others, even if it is unavoidable, who don't cover for others, and who engage in a lot of boundary drawing about what they will and will not do in terms of work face a significant amount of resentment. If you are getting a negative reaction from your co-workers, perhaps you need to examine your own behavior and make sure that you are treating others as you would like to be treated.

The culture of each firm and practice area is different. Some work at reasonable firms with reasonable people, some do not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know a female partner at a big law firm who has three kids. Her husband works full-time at a (bit) less demanding job. They have a lot of help on the domestic front. Full-tme nanny/housekeeper, part-time personal manager, and one set of grandparents who are local and are very helpful in ferrying the kids after school and on the weekends. The answer is lots of outside help.

This woman has basically outsourced her LIFE.

So big law men who have lots of help at home also outsource their lives.

I know a woman with one kid who doesn't work and has a nanny, housekeeper and dog walker. Does she outsource her life?

[Anonymous]

Yes sounds like she does.

[Anonymous]

I am disturbed at the suggestion that people on maternity leave are paid. Ummm that is a rare privilege. I did not get it other than accrued sick leave and disability insurance. Are you certain these people are getting paid maternity leave? I sure didn't. Furthermore resenting people for having children is not productive (pun intended). Our society needs children to continue. it is a concern for a lot of countries with low or negative population growth. A huge amount of the internal revenue code is specifically designed to encourage families to grow.

Now I am worried that all my male and child-less co-workers think I had a paid maternity leave. The only perk if you can even call it that was that they agreed I can use accrued sick leave to care for a sick child or dependent because when I got pregnant they didn't even allow that.