Med student allegedly inappropriate with female patient and commits suicide after disciplinary action

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If he'd gone through with the full meeting it's likely he would have been counseled and been allowed to finish. The school also referred him to counseling.

The reality is anyone can file a lawsuit that doesn't mean they'll win. Now a lot of defendants will just settle because it avoids legal fees and publicity.

He could not deal with the shame in the Indian social circle and took the extreme step.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If he'd gone through with the full meeting it's likely he would have been counseled and been allowed to finish. The school also referred him to counseling.

The reality is anyone can file a lawsuit that doesn't mean they'll win. Now a lot of defendants will just settle because it avoids legal fees and publicity.

He could not deal with the shame in the Indian social circle and took the extreme step.

I think sometimes there is a cultural disconnect with first and second gen immigrants and dealing with challenges and set backs. I don't think it's always shame related to cultural expectations. Sometimes I think a big part of it is just an inability to understand how recoverable a set back is based on coming from a family that does not have a lot of cultural understanding, which leads to blowing things out of proportion and overreacting. This is a pattern I've seen many times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.everythinglubbock.com/news/local-news/texas-tech-medical-student-dies-after-seeking-mental-health-help/

Med student asked inappropriate sexual questions to patient and asked to follow on instagram. Also offered to do a pap. The patient reported it- he was investigated and committed suicide. Parents are suing the med school. How do we prevent Larry Nassar’s? It seems like schools can’t win.

That is not what is described in the article.

He asked her if she had ever had a threesome, how is that ever an appropriate question from a medical provider?

I teach med students how to take sexual histories.

It is absolutely not appropriate. The students are taught to ask about number of partners, current and lifetime and perhaps over a certain period of recent time (past year, past 6 months, or whatever) depending on the concerns that arise out of the chief complaint, history, and/or exam. They are taught to ask about how partners identify, and what kind of sex practices are engaged in (vaginal, anal, oral), and whether or not toys are used. And of course whether or not barrier methods of protection are used. And these detailed questions are only asked in context of assessing risk, providing care, and counseling the patient regarding safe practices.

So how many partners one has had recently? Legit question. What kinds of sex one is engaging in with those partners? Legit question. Whether or not three people are all engaging in those practices together at once? No. The only thing I can think of in which this might be a legit area to explore is a psych patient who is manic and putting themself at risk in multiple ways as a result of manic hypersexuality. But even then -- asking if the patient has ever had a threesome? No.

So many invasive questions! Asking about sexual toys?? In what scenario are these questions considered appropriate??!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.everythinglubbock.com/news/local-news/texas-tech-medical-student-dies-after-seeking-mental-health-help/

Med student asked inappropriate sexual questions to patient and asked to follow on instagram. Also offered to do a pap. The patient reported it- he was investigated and committed suicide. Parents are suing the med school. How do we prevent Larry Nassar’s? It seems like schools can’t win.

That is not what is described in the article.

He asked her if she had ever had a threesome, how is that ever an appropriate question from a medical provider?

I teach med students how to take sexual histories.

It is absolutely not appropriate. The students are taught to ask about number of partners, current and lifetime and perhaps over a certain period of recent time (past year, past 6 months, or whatever) depending on the concerns that arise out of the chief complaint, history, and/or exam. They are taught to ask about how partners identify, and what kind of sex practices are engaged in (vaginal, anal, oral), and whether or not toys are used. And of course whether or not barrier methods of protection are used. And these detailed questions are only asked in context of assessing risk, providing care, and counseling the patient regarding safe practices.

So how many partners one has had recently? Legit question. What kinds of sex one is engaging in with those partners? Legit question. Whether or not three people are all engaging in those practices together at once? No. The only thing I can think of in which this might be a legit area to explore is a psych patient who is manic and putting themself at risk in multiple ways as a result of manic hypersexuality. But even then -- asking if the patient has ever had a threesome? No.

So many invasive questions! Asking about sexual toys?? In what scenario are these questions considered appropriate??!!

Like I said in my post, what questions are necessary depends on the complaint, history and exam. STIs can spread when people use toys and do not clean them and/or do not use some kind of barrier protection with them. Counseling on this can be appropriate. Doctors regularly ask questions that you might find "invasive." But they can be necessary in certain circumstances. If someone walks into urgent care with a sprained ankle, you aren't going to take a sexual history at all. But let's say a woman comes in complaining of vaginal discharge, itching, and burning with urination, and they have multiple partners who are all female, and their understanding of how to protect themselves from STIs is low -- then knowing about the use of toys is going to be an important bit of information for a provider who needs to diagnose, treat and counsel them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.everythinglubbock.com/news/local-news/texas-tech-medical-student-dies-after-seeking-mental-health-help/

Med student asked inappropriate sexual questions to patient and asked to follow on instagram. Also offered to do a pap. The patient reported it- he was investigated and committed suicide. Parents are suing the med school. How do we prevent Larry Nassar’s? It seems like schools can’t win.

That is not what is described in the article.

He asked her if she had ever had a threesome, how is that ever an appropriate question from a medical provider?

I teach med students how to take sexual histories.

It is absolutely not appropriate. The students are taught to ask about number of partners, current and lifetime and perhaps over a certain period of recent time (past year, past 6 months, or whatever) depending on the concerns that arise out of the chief complaint, history, and/or exam. They are taught to ask about how partners identify, and what kind of sex practices are engaged in (vaginal, anal, oral), and whether or not toys are used. And of course whether or not barrier methods of protection are used. And these detailed questions are only asked in context of assessing risk, providing care, and counseling the patient regarding safe practices.

So how many partners one has had recently? Legit question. What kinds of sex one is engaging in with those partners? Legit question. Whether or not three people are all engaging in those practices together at once? No. The only thing I can think of in which this might be a legit area to explore is a psych patient who is manic and putting themself at risk in multiple ways as a result of manic hypersexuality. But even then -- asking if the patient has ever had a threesome? No.

So many invasive questions! Asking about sexual toys?? In what scenario are these questions considered appropriate??!!

Like I said in my post, what questions are necessary depends on the complaint, history and exam. STIs can spread when people use toys and do not clean them and/or do not use some kind of barrier protection with them. Counseling on this can be appropriate. Doctors regularly ask questions that you might find "invasive." But they can be necessary in certain circumstances. If someone walks into urgent care with a sprained ankle, you aren't going to take a sexual history at all. But let's say a woman comes in complaining of vaginal discharge, itching, and burning with urination, and they have multiple partners who are all female, and their understanding of how to protect themselves from STIs is low -- then knowing about the use of toys is going to be an important bit of information for a provider who needs to diagnose, treat and counsel them.

in today’s political environment and with collapsing privacy norms both legally and due to AI, I decline to answer any questions about my marital status, my employment status, my gender, preference, or my sexual behavior.

I understand why doctors have asked this historically but honestly, it just provides opportunity for abuse. If you’re a doctor and you’re concerned that a person might be having a recurrence STD because they’re using toys, you don’t need to ask them if they’re using toys, you need to explain that recurrent infections can be caused by a number of issues untreated partners use of sexual toys, depending upon the STD may be exposure to other objects. A lot of these intrusive questions are unnecessary. If doctors would do more patient education and encourage patients to be partners in their own care. You don’t need to ask a patient how often they’re having sex with whom they’re having sex when you could instead explain that their symptoms are consistent with a number of STDs sum of which they would be at increased risks for if they had certain frequencies of sex or partners then offer them the range of STD testing and let them decide. The patient knows who they’re sleeping with and how often they don’t actually need to tell you if you tell them how that information can impact the decisions they make.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If he'd gone through with the full meeting it's likely he would have been counseled and been allowed to finish. The school also referred him to counseling.

The reality is anyone can file a lawsuit that doesn't mean they'll win. Now a lot of defendants will just settle because it avoids legal fees and publicity.

He could not deal with the shame in the Indian social circle and took the extreme step.

I think sometimes there is a cultural disconnect with first and second gen immigrants and dealing with challenges and set backs. I don't think it's always shame related to cultural expectations. Sometimes I think a big part of it is just an inability to understand how recoverable a set back is based on coming from a family that does not have a lot of cultural understanding, which leads to blowing things out of proportion and overreacting. This is a pattern I've seen many times.

Very true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.everythinglubbock.com/news/local-news/texas-tech-medical-student-dies-after-seeking-mental-health-help/

Med student asked inappropriate sexual questions to patient and asked to follow on instagram. Also offered to do a pap. The patient reported it- he was investigated and committed suicide. Parents are suing the med school. How do we prevent Larry Nassar’s? It seems like schools can’t win.

That is not what is described in the article.

He asked her if she had ever had a threesome, how is that ever an appropriate question from a medical provider?

I teach med students how to take sexual histories.

It is absolutely not appropriate. The students are taught to ask about number of partners, current and lifetime and perhaps over a certain period of recent time (past year, past 6 months, or whatever) depending on the concerns that arise out of the chief complaint, history, and/or exam. They are taught to ask about how partners identify, and what kind of sex practices are engaged in (vaginal, anal, oral), and whether or not toys are used. And of course whether or not barrier methods of protection are used. And these detailed questions are only asked in context of assessing risk, providing care, and counseling the patient regarding safe practices.

So how many partners one has had recently? Legit question. What kinds of sex one is engaging in with those partners? Legit question. Whether or not three people are all engaging in those practices together at once? No. The only thing I can think of in which this might be a legit area to explore is a psych patient who is manic and putting themself at risk in multiple ways as a result of manic hypersexuality. But even then -- asking if the patient has ever had a threesome? No.

So many invasive questions! Asking about sexual toys?? In what scenario are these questions considered appropriate??!!

Like I said in my post, what questions are necessary depends on the complaint, history and exam. STIs can spread when people use toys and do not clean them and/or do not use some kind of barrier protection with them. Counseling on this can be appropriate. Doctors regularly ask questions that you might find "invasive." But they can be necessary in certain circumstances. If someone walks into urgent care with a sprained ankle, you aren't going to take a sexual history at all. But let's say a woman comes in complaining of vaginal discharge, itching, and burning with urination, and they have multiple partners who are all female, and their understanding of how to protect themselves from STIs is low -- then knowing about the use of toys is going to be an important bit of information for a provider who needs to diagnose, treat and counsel them.

in today’s political environment and with collapsing privacy norms both legally and due to AI, I decline to answer any questions about my marital status, my employment status, my gender, preference, or my sexual behavior.

I understand why doctors have asked this historically but honestly, it just provides opportunity for abuse. If you’re a doctor and you’re concerned that a person might be having a recurrence STD because they’re using toys, you don’t need to ask them if they’re using toys, you need to explain that recurrent infections can be caused by a number of issues untreated partners use of sexual toys, depending upon the STD may be exposure to other objects. A lot of these intrusive questions are unnecessary. If doctors would do more patient education and encourage patients to be partners in their own care. You don’t need to ask a patient how often they’re having sex with whom they’re having sex when you could instead explain that their symptoms are consistent with a number of STDs sum of which they would be at increased risks for if they had certain frequencies of sex or partners then offer them the range of STD testing and let them decide. The patient knows who they’re sleeping with and how often they don’t actually need to tell you if you tell them how that information can impact the decisions they make.

Well said, thank you. Education can be provided without all the questioning. Much more respectful that way

[Anonymous]

I sounds like a problem was solved. Giving him counseling? I’d never go yo a doctor if I knew he’d been counseled for asking inappropriate questions to a patient at the start of his career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s understandable that the parents are looking for someone to blame but how is the school responsible for the medical student’s inappropriate behavior?

They can't come to terms that they raised him wrong.

it is an Indian family. that is their pension going down the drain.

[Anonymous]

I don’t get it. The article doesn’t explain what exactly he did or asked in a way I find completely inappropriate. Wouldn’t a male med students rotating (through on/gyn especially) have another doctor in the room with them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get it. The article doesn’t explain what exactly he did or asked in a way I find completely inappropriate. Wouldn’t a male med students rotating (through on/gyn especially) have another doctor in the room with them?

The article says he followed her on instagram after she "told him" her handle (I'm guessing because he asked) after asking inappropriate questions (no detail given).

If you click through the documents, he asked her abour her current and previous relationship status, if she'd been in a threesome, and if her boyfriend would mind if he touched her abdomen (and continued using that phrasing), and said she had nice abs. He then followed her on instagram and sent messages that amde her uncomfortable, but she did not have screenshots as she had blocked him, and she requested never to be seen by him again.

There is also a document with his side (from a meeting with a supervisor), which is that she was nervous, she showed him a picture of her boyfriend, he showed her a pic of his girlfriend and they chatted. She mentioned her boyfriend got really jealous and that's why he kept asking if her boyfriend would mind. He said she had nice abs after she said she goes to the gym. He mentioned maybe he'd see her around, and she gave him her instagram handle. He followed her, then decided it wasn't appropriate and unfollowed. He claims this is the first time he ever had such interactions with a patient.

The supervisor told him at least 8 times during the meeting not to engage in this kind of contact, told him he was on temporary leave of absence with no patient contact, outlined possible outcomes, and gave him the support helpline.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t get it. The article doesn’t explain what exactly he did or asked in a way I find completely inappropriate. Wouldn’t a male med students rotating (through on/gyn especially) have another doctor in the room with them?

The article says he followed her on instagram after she "told him" her handle (I'm guessing because he asked) after asking inappropriate questions (no detail given).

If you click through the documents, he asked her abour her current and previous relationship status, if she'd been in a threesome, and if her boyfriend would mind if he touched her abdomen (and continued using that phrasing), and said she had nice abs. He then followed her on instagram and sent messages that amde her uncomfortable, but she did not have screenshots as she had blocked him, and she requested never to be seen by him again.

There is also a document with his side (from a meeting with a supervisor), which is that she was nervous, she showed him a picture of her boyfriend, he showed her a pic of his girlfriend and they chatted. She mentioned her boyfriend got really jealous and that's why he kept asking if her boyfriend would mind. He said she had nice abs after she said she goes to the gym. He mentioned maybe he'd see her around, and she gave him her instagram handle. He followed her, then decided it wasn't appropriate and unfollowed. He claims this is the first time he ever had such interactions with a patient.

The supervisor told him at least 8 times during the meeting not to engage in this kind of contact, told him he was on temporary leave of absence with no patient contact, outlined possible outcomes, and gave him the support helpline.

Even if everything happened the way he described, it's inappropriate. It's her body and her medical treatment -- the relevant question is whether she minds, not the boyfriend. And showing her a photo of his girlfriend was also crossing boundaries, as was following her on Instagram.

[Anonymous]

I found it odd that she said he DMd her but provided no screenshots and said she couldn't because he blocked her? Hm. Also, was there a witness to all this? Wouldn't there me someone else in the exam room?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I found it odd that she said he DMd her but provided no screenshots and said she couldn't because he blocked her? Hm. Also, was there a witness to all this? Wouldn't there me someone else in the exam room?

You can read the docs on the original links— he was in the room with a nurse (or NP?). I don’t know why the supervising clinician didn’t pull him out of the room or report the event herself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I found it odd that she said he DMd her but provided no screenshots and said she couldn't because he blocked her? Hm. Also, was there a witness to all this? Wouldn't there me someone else in the exam room?

You can read the docs on the original links— he was in the room with a nurse (or NP?). I don’t know why the supervising clinician didn’t pull him out of the room or report the event herself.

That does seem odd, no?