What do you think is the origin behind men always being expected to make the first move, ask the woman out?

[Anonymous]

Women have nice butts. You want it, go get it. Nuff said...

[Anonymous]

ThE pAtRiArChY.

[Anonymous]

Are you serious? because the world is incredibly sexist and it's taking a long time for the old ways to die out.

I agree with you it's dumb. I also suspect you are either a post-feminist who is totally clueless about the disadvantages of being a woman in society, if this really throws you, at best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I doubt I'm the only person or the only guy in the world that's always had a lifelong hatred or resentment towards this. Guys always being expected to make the first move and ask the girl out, be the initiators,or they say, men court women, etc.

What is the origin behind that you think?

It's probably the main thing or the number one thing I've always hated about being born the male gender, it's like why can't women go after men too right?

There are other things I resent about it to but I don't want to get too much deep into it but I might answer it as I reply to comments.

When people say "that's the way it is", makes me more mad and angry and only adds fuel to fire towards my resentment.

Some people say it's not always like this, and that the world is slowly changing about this.

But I mostly doubt and part of me thinks that it'll be this way for all eternity.

On the one hand, making the first explicit move carries with it the risk of painful rejection, which sucks. On the other hand, if you have any degree of subtlety or perception, women often send signals that can verge on screaming at you if you are paying attention and aren’t hung up on explicit statements of interest, which in general women don’t seem to like making. (It can be easier to see this when it’s not you—“kiss her, you fool” is a trope for a reason.) I would see this through the lens of differences in communication styles more than anything else. But yes, there comes a point where the man is generally expected to take the risk associated with making things more explicit. Suck it up. While rejection hurts, it is often not personal and there are other fish in the sea.

[Anonymous]

Oh brother. Men don’t make the first move. We just let you guys think you do.

[Anonymous]

People should do what works for them. I have bad luck with being the pursuer. I had three relationships in which I asked the man out first and all three ended up being a problem. In contrast, every relationship in which the man pursued me, we had a nice relationship and either are still friends or I’m married too. Might be a coincidence. I’ll never know. If DH dies before me, I’m done with men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is such a myth. Guys approach only after they have been given some small signal, a look, a smile, a nod, a slight touch.

Not true. The creepy ones approach regardless.

[Anonymous]

It's fairly understandable that women would seek to get rid of the parts of the patriarchy that hurt them before they worry about the parts that are beneficial to them.

Maybe we'll try to get rid of the rapes, get equal pay, and the right to bank accounts before worrying so much about the free drinks and dinners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I doubt I'm the only person or the only guy in the world that's always had a lifelong hatred or resentment towards this. Guys always being expected to make the first move and ask the girl out, be the initiators,or they say, men court women, etc.

What is the origin behind that you think?

It's probably the main thing or the number one thing I've always hated about being born the male gender, it's like why can't women go after men too right?

There are other things I resent about it to but I don't want to get too much deep into it but I might answer it as I reply to comments.

When people say "that's the way it is", makes me more mad and angry and only adds fuel to fire towards my resentment.

Some people say it's not always like this, and that the world is slowly changing about this.

But I mostly doubt and part of me thinks that it'll be this way for all eternity.

On the one hand, making the first explicit move carries with it the risk of painful rejection, which sucks. On the other hand, if you have any degree of subtlety or perception, women often send signals that can verge on screaming at you if you are paying attention and aren’t hung up on explicit statements of interest, which in general women don’t seem to like making. (It can be easier to see this when it’s not you—“kiss her, you fool” is a trope for a reason.) I would see this through the lens of differences in communication styles more than anything else. But yes, there comes a point where the man is generally expected to take the risk associated with making things more explicit. Suck it up. While rejection hurts, it is often not personal and there are other fish in the sea.

I know I'm in good company in which I have this mindset and that is women normally never risk having their social awkwardness or social ineptness be dismissed or be perceived as weird or creepy or threatening when interacting with the other sex so in some ways if women made advances on men their advances will never be perceived as weird or creepy or dangerous

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I doubt I'm the only person or the only guy in the world that's always had a lifelong hatred or resentment towards this. Guys always being expected to make the first move and ask the girl out, be the initiators,or they say, men court women, etc.

What is the origin behind that you think?

It's probably the main thing or the number one thing I've always hated about being born the male gender, it's like why can't women go after men too right?

There are other things I resent about it to but I don't want to get too much deep into it but I might answer it as I reply to comments.

When people say "that's the way it is", makes me more mad and angry and only adds fuel to fire towards my resentment.

Some people say it's not always like this, and that the world is slowly changing about this.

But I mostly doubt and part of me thinks that it'll be this way for all eternity.

On the one hand, making the first explicit move carries with it the risk of painful rejection, which sucks. On the other hand, if you have any degree of subtlety or perception, women often send signals that can verge on screaming at you if you are paying attention and aren’t hung up on explicit statements of interest, which in general women don’t seem to like making. (It can be easier to see this when it’s not you—“kiss her, you fool” is a trope for a reason.) I would see this through the lens of differences in communication styles more than anything else. But yes, there comes a point where the man is generally expected to take the risk associated with making things more explicit. Suck it up. While rejection hurts, it is often not personal and there are other fish in the sea.

I know I'm in good company in which I have this mindset and that is women normally never risk having their social awkwardness or social ineptness be dismissed or be perceived as weird or creepy or threatening when interacting with the other sex so in some ways if women made advances on men their advances will never be perceived as weird or creepy or dangerous

Right, men are afraid women will laugh at them and women are afraid men will kill them. So sorry, bud!

[Anonymous]

This tradition exists because of patriarchy, but also if you really don't like it, then look for women who also don't like it.

My DH and I were pretty equal in pursuing each other. For instance, when we met, I got his email address (told him I wanted to send him info about an event I was involved with coming up) but he did not ask for my info. On the other hand, he was the first to actually suggest we go out. I think he paid for our drinks the first night? But then our second date was a picnic and I bought all the food for it. And so on. It was really pretty equal and I know my DH doesn't feel like he had to do all the work, at all. We agree to get married, no one asked anyone (and no parents involved at all).

My experience dating is that many men HATE women who are more forward and involved in the courtship process. They view it as stepping on their toes. They like to control how those early dates go. Often, their ego is injured by the suggestion that we split a check or take turns paying. I dated many guys like this. Once. And then moved on because obviously we weren't right for each other. My DH didn't care and I think liked that we kind of took turns. He's always said he likes how even things feel between us.

I think the problem is that men who don't want to be the initiators often want the women who like men to be the initiators. It's really about power and control. Men want the women who seem less available and interested because it's an ego thing -- those women seem more high value to them because the subscribe to very traditional ideas about women and value. BUT they find the idea of pursuing these women demeaning -- why should they have to chase?

So really, you want it both ways. You want a traditional woman who plays this game to prove that she is of higher value, but then you want her to pursue you so that you don't have to do the work AND you can feel wanted.

If you were actually willing to meet women halfway, you'd find women who also like meeting halfway. But you'd probably deem them lower value because they would seem too available to you, and you've been conditioned to believe that worthy women are hard to get.

Sorry about that? Prison of your own making.

[Anonymous]

It's a filter that women use to rule out:

1) Men who are just not that into them;
2) Men who are passive and avoidant;
3) Men who are so lazy and/or disorganized that they can't even plan a date.

If the idea is to marry and have a family, a little bit of enthusiasm, motivation, and not dump all planning and logistics on the woman, then it's super important to filter out that kind of man.

[Anonymous]

Oh lord, it has nothing to do with any kind of social construct, “patriarchy”… whatever you want to call it. These posters have no clue.

It’s biology, duh. Patriarchy comes from biology anyway.

Men are hard wired to want to procreate with as many women as possible, thus are more promiscuous, because the cost/benefit of promiscuity is much more in favor of men than women.

Now, men who are more timid and don’t make the first move historically are less likely to reproduce. Men who are sexually aggressive are more likely to have their genes passed on. These traits didn’t even originate in humans, they came from other species that we descended from. In almost all species the males are more aggressive at pursuing the females for mating, with few exceptions.

This is nothing to do with any kind of artificial social construct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I doubt I'm the only person or the only guy in the world that's always had a lifelong hatred or resentment towards this. Guys always being expected to make the first move and ask the girl out, be the initiators,or they say, men court women, etc.

What is the origin behind that you think?

It's probably the main thing or the number one thing I've always hated about being born the male gender, it's like why can't women go after men too right?

There are other things I resent about it to but I don't want to get too much deep into it but I might answer it as I reply to comments.

When people say "that's the way it is", makes me more mad and angry and only adds fuel to fire towards my resentment.

Some people say it's not always like this, and that the world is slowly changing about this.

But I mostly doubt and part of me thinks that it'll be this way for all eternity.

It is your choice. Be alone or ask.

[Anonymous]

Women used to be property traded among men. The man who wants to marry (or his father) would approach the father of the respective woman and ask to marry her. Notice all the "moves" are made by men.

I'm not remotely talking about modern times so I don't want to hear from anyone who thinks I'm maligning asking parents for their daughter's hand in marriage for those who do that.