Any tips or advice re: interacting with elderly relative with borderline and narcissistic traits?

[Anonymous]

Mine went to a psychiatrist who got her on medication. Finally! After all these years, the anxiety, depression and possible borderline is treated!

She triangulates way less. The borderline traits aren’t present as much so I suspect some of that actually came from severe anxiety. I don’t know but the situation improved.

I also stopped expecting them to be normal. I keep conversations short.

[Anonymous]

Grey rock. Disengage.

You don't mention why you need to be involved at this particular point in time.

When it came time and my mother needed to go to a nursing home, we (my sibling and I) did as the other poster described and just jollied her along by telling her whatever she wanted to hear to get her in the place. (It was a top notch facility and we had busted our ass to get her in there and she claimed that she would have nothing in common with anyone in there as they were all beneath her in various ways. Delusional. Grandiosity.)

The behavior continues while she in there and so I have continued to limit contact.

Let go of the rope is the best advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Mine went to a psychiatrist who got her on medication. Finally! After all these years, the anxiety, depression and possible borderline is treated!

She triangulates way less. The borderline traits aren’t present as much so I suspect some of that actually came from severe anxiety. I don’t know but the situation improved.

I also stopped expecting them to be normal. I keep conversations short.

I just posted and this too. This is key. Stop expecting normal responses.

[Anonymous]

First off, so far our experience is it gets worse and more crazy with age. Mom used to be subtly manipulative, slightly entitled and had mils issues managing anger. Now it's all that on steroids. The sad thing is she is so obvious trying to pit people against eachother. She even tried to start a drama with my brother writing an email from ME from her email address. I chat with my brother weekly. What a stupid manipulation on her part. He knew it was her, but we both couldn't believe how ignorant she has become in her attempts to create drama.

We have both learned to detach from her. She has an obsession with firing doctors and acting like a diva at the office. We stopped researching doctors for her because it's a waste of time. She is perfectly capable of researching herself and she just fires them anyway.

Yes, don't expect the parent to be normal. We limit contact and get off the phone or leave when she rants, manipulates, guilt trips or tries to triangulate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Mine went to a psychiatrist who got her on medication. Finally! After all these years, the anxiety, depression and possible borderline is treated!

She triangulates way less. The borderline traits aren’t present as much so I suspect some of that actually came from severe anxiety. I don’t know but the situation improved.

I also stopped expecting them to be normal. I keep conversations short.

Not OP, but wanted to say.....Mine did too, but she doesn't stay on the meds. I agree a lot is anxiety. The borderline and narcissistic qualities fade away on anti-anxiety meds and she actually has a decent personality, but she has taken herself off meds over a dozen times over the years. Every time she creates so mcuh drama and chaos off meds that she cannot function and finally goes back on the cycle continues. I hope your parent is willing to stay treated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Grey rock. Disengage.

You don't mention why you need to be involved at this particular point in time.

When it came time and my mother needed to go to a nursing home, we (my sibling and I) did as the other poster described and just jollied her along by telling her whatever she wanted to hear to get her in the place. (It was a top notch facility and we had busted our ass to get her in there and she claimed that she would have nothing in common with anyone in there as they were all beneath her in various ways. Delusional. Grandiosity.)

The behavior continues while she in there and so I have continued to limit contact.

Let go of the rope is the best advice.

She just got out of a hospital and 2 month rehab stay and is in 90s. After being home for less than a month and making some significant health improvements is now planning to fire HHA. In the meantime is scapegoating her and complaining about her in front of other service providers, ie, home PT, home OT, visiting nurse and neighbors. Various other providers are offering up unemployed acquaintances to drive her, etc. The HHA and her supervisor have been great and it is valuable to the rest of the far away family for someone trained to keep an eye on changes in cognition, etc. as the intensity of the crazy behavior is escalating.

The rehab sent in a psychiatrist multiple times but due to another health issue her meds need to be minimized so he never started her on any. She is very anxious and manipulative. I don't think she could be declared incompetent any time soon but now can barely walk and can no longer drive. The neighbors don't want to be drafted as volunteer HHA, go back to wondering if she has eaten, etc. Nor do I. She is determined to show she is in control but does not have insight into the fact that she is forgetting more, needs someone to oversee meds, etc.

I think the next crisis will be soon and then we'll see what the discharge plan looks like. Was worth trying a HHA and would have worked out well for a less disordered person.

Thank you for saying that a change in roof did not transform your relative, nor will it do so for mine. People who post that on this forum likely do not have mentally ill relatives, esp illnesses that impact social relationships so much. So, I need to be in some contact to try to get to and through the next stage.

I was scapegoated in the family and seeing her do it to others is painful, esp as I feel I had a hand in creating a toxic workplace for this HHA who has been valuable for me and sib. Sib is over it all and says he no longer cares if she drives and kills someone, he is sick of hearing about it from her. He says nothing will work out because she won't let it. I think her extreme anxiety about money is playing a role, too.

[Anonymous]

^ In the past I have been NC or LC for extended periods of time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First off, so far our experience is it gets worse and more crazy with age.

Same!

Mine recently stopped drinking due to a health change/med, the hospital/physio rehab allowed her to dry out, and I don't know if the former heavy drinking had kind of tamped down some of the crazy/was a sedative or what, but it is so much worse now. Maybe it is early dementia combined with mental illness, not sure. But many in the family have commented that they don't recall her being quite this crazy or it being so intense, in the past.

The negativity, gaslighting, smear campaigns, etc, are all that is left. Can't even have brief convos about food or weather anymore. I suspect she knows she is slipping and that is ramping up the anxiety and need to control. The people in her life who still interact with her seem to have agendas, for the most part, or like to stir the pot themselves and rile her up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First off, so far our experience is it gets worse and more crazy with age. Mom used to be subtly manipulative, slightly entitled and had mils issues managing anger. Now it's all that on steroids. The sad thing is she is so obvious trying to pit people against eachother. She even tried to start a drama with my brother writing an email from ME from her email address. I chat with my brother weekly. What a stupid manipulation on her part. He knew it was her, but we both couldn't believe how ignorant she has become in her attempts to create drama.

We have both learned to detach from her. She has an obsession with firing doctors and acting like a diva at the office. We stopped researching doctors for her because it's a waste of time. She is perfectly capable of researching herself and she just fires them anyway.

Yes, don't expect the parent to be normal. We limit contact and get off the phone or leave when she rants, manipulates, guilt trips or tries to triangulate.

Lol, my mom's neighbor said her entire sense of self is "bad girl DIVA." Mine likes going to the doctor esp if they compliment her shoes or purse. She does not follow their advice but going is one of her primary pastimes. If they try to schedule her in 6 months, she will call back and move appointment up.

Sib is angling for $ and handouts so just blows smoke, says, "you are sharp as a tack!" and fuels the triangulation and recently, paranoia.

Neighbors have expressed concerns and have pulled back. Just waiting for the next crisis, the intervals are getting shorter and shorter.

How can any concerns re: cognition be raised without triggering narc rage? She refuses to have anyone on the accounts or even to have one of us call in to participate in doctor's appointments, although if we are visiting from out of state she insists we go, nothing is consistent. Her insight or understanding of what was said at the appointment is often lacking, even right after. Sometimes that is documented by office staff. She is more and more unreasonable with us and has more rando 'unemployed neighbor of x home health provider" angling for some type of employment. It's not a great situation. Not sure how the jollying along advice would play out in this scenario?

It's like she has some kind of attachment disorder, people who have acted in her interest are scorned and rando sketchy strangers are embraced, sometimes literally. I looked up the standard for being declared incompetent in her state and it's pretty high.

It's stressful and when I try to build in safety I am blocked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First off, so far our experience is it gets worse and more crazy with age. Mom used to be subtly manipulative, slightly entitled and had mils issues managing anger. Now it's all that on steroids. The sad thing is she is so obvious trying to pit people against eachother. She even tried to start a drama with my brother writing an email from ME from her email address. I chat with my brother weekly. What a stupid manipulation on her part. He knew it was her, but we both couldn't believe how ignorant she has become in her attempts to create drama.

We have both learned to detach from her. She has an obsession with firing doctors and acting like a diva at the office. We stopped researching doctors for her because it's a waste of time. She is perfectly capable of researching herself and she just fires them anyway.

Yes, don't expect the parent to be normal. We limit contact and get off the phone or leave when she rants, manipulates, guilt trips or tries to triangulate.

Lol, my mom's neighbor said her entire sense of self is "bad girl DIVA." Mine likes going to the doctor esp if they compliment her shoes or purse. She does not follow their advice but going is one of her primary pastimes. If they try to schedule her in 6 months, she will call back and move appointment up.

Sib is angling for $ and handouts so just blows smoke, says, "you are sharp as a tack!" and fuels the triangulation and recently, paranoia.

Neighbors have expressed concerns and have pulled back. Just waiting for the next crisis, the intervals are getting shorter and shorter.

How can any concerns re: cognition be raised without triggering narc rage? She refuses to have anyone on the accounts or even to have one of us call in to participate in doctor's appointments, although if we are visiting from out of state she insists we go, nothing is consistent. Her insight or understanding of what was said at the appointment is often lacking, even right after. Sometimes that is documented by office staff. She is more and more unreasonable with us and has more rando 'unemployed neighbor of x home health provider" angling for some type of employment. It's not a great situation. Not sure how the jollying along advice would play out in this scenario?

It's like she has some kind of attachment disorder, people who have acted in her interest are scorned and rando sketchy strangers are embraced, sometimes literally. I looked up the standard for being declared incompetent in her state and it's pretty high.

It's stressful and when I try to build in safety I am blocked.

I have found my people. Yes, I live all of this. So we have a geriatric social worker who checks on her for need, assesses driving skill, etc. She had to chose a person she was willing to let into her house and she chose someone young and easy to manipulate. It's not idea, but we make it clear to this woman that no matter how charming she finds mom, it is not OK if mom murders someone with her car so she needs to taker job seriously. That said, at least mom lets her in the door. If we chose someone more seasoned, mom would fire her.

Yes, mom scapegoats, manipulates and basically screws over anyone who cares and seems to adore the randos taking advantage.as a wise person on here said, while deemed cognitively OK, you cannot protect them from themselves, but you must protect the world from them. I spent years trying to do right by my mean mother. Now I accept she will probably cause her own death through stubbornness. If the woman we hired can't get mom to stop driving when the time comes, we will get police and DMV involved.

One issue we have had is relatives who gladly accept mom buying love, but then can't take the dark side of that-when mom gets nasty. I have detached from that. If they can't say "no" and set boundaries that is their problem. No gift from her comes without strings. If you feel you already earned her handout or she didn't make clear the strings, work it out with her and stop dragging me in. The same goes for neighbors who constantly said "let me know if need anything" or "call me anytime." They have to set their own boundaries. Their words deluded her into thinking all her neighbors adored her and would gladly support her aging in place. Sure people say those things to be friendly and they mean it for now and then, but if they only planned to help her once, then they need to say that. I am not the messenger. I wanted her to move, but shew felt she was too adored by neighbors to disappoint them. Now she complains they all see to quickly run inside when they see her.

One of the helpful things about having someone in charge of assessment is the person also can be paid to deal with emergencies. If I am not available we will simply call the social worker. If mom were kind, I would insist on throwing my own life into chaos to be there for her, but after enough years of these tirades my kids and husband absolutely come first and will not be subjected to anymore abusive behavior.

If the time comes and she has to go rehabilitation and I have no access to her money, then the social worker at the hospital will have to figure it out and she will go where they can send her.

[Anonymous]

One more thing, if you have concerns about cognition, call all her doctors. They can't discuss with you, but document that you left messages detailing concerns.

[Anonymous]

Thanks very much, PP.

How did you find the social worker and how is she paid? We thought we had some of this covered with a HHA but my mom has turned on her and plans to do without one. So your approach intrigues me.

I did recently call a doctor and the nurse documented my concerns. She suggested I ask if I could attend the upcoming appointment by phone as I was there for the last one in person and she remembered meeting me. I asked and my mom said "NO, I don't need a babysitter!" So that is a bit awkward, but not something I can control.

The sib with POA said we should have her start driving again so this will all be wrapped up sooner, and he does not care if she takes someone else out. He is pretty cold. The $$$ loving sib just sucks up to her. I seem to be the only one concerned about her well being and safety but am the one she is suddenly paranoid about bc I see she is struggling a bit.

Various service providers are trying to drive wedges re: her kids, the HHA, etc. It is a bit alarming. Some of that info has come from her, other info from neighbors. The HHA provides a degree of safety physically, keeping track of who is in and out, letting us know she had a recent serious fall, had a med error, etc. but now she is the targeted scapegoat, surpassing me. $ is a big anxiety for my mom and that is another reason she wants to cut off the service.

It's like watching a car accident in slow motion with vehicles coming from several directions.

Your mom sounds so much like mine, seeing the neighbors as her "fan club." They were thrilled that a meal service and HHA were started but my mom did not even leave those in place for a month before cancelling or planning/talking frequently about canceling at end of the month. The only neighbors who still interact with her all had narc or otherwise disordered or mentally ill mothers. They seem caught in her web but resentful. One is listing his house soon and the other travels for months at a time.

The HHA company also has an emergency service available, the owner would be available to go hospital since we all live far away. They also send a weekly report. It has been great, my sibs are fans too. But my mom does not factor in others and we can't prevent her from cancelling. But maybe a social worker could be a plan B. I guess there is always calling the police for welfare checks, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks very much, PP.

How did you find the social worker and how is she paid? We thought we had some of this covered with a HHA but my mom has turned on her and plans to do without one. So your approach intrigues me.

I did recently call a doctor and the nurse documented my concerns. She suggested I ask if I could attend the upcoming appointment by phone as I was there for the last one in person and she remembered meeting me. I asked and my mom said "NO, I don't need a babysitter!" So that is a bit awkward, but not something I can control.

The sib with POA said we should have her start driving again so this will all be wrapped up sooner, and he does not care if she takes someone else out. He is pretty cold. The $$$ loving sib just sucks up to her. I seem to be the only one concerned about her well being and safety but am the one she is suddenly paranoid about bc I see she is struggling a bit.

Various service providers are trying to drive wedges re: her kids, the HHA, etc. It is a bit alarming. Some of that info has come from her, other info from neighbors. The HHA provides a degree of safety physically, keeping track of who is in and out, letting us know she had a recent serious fall, had a med error, etc. but now she is the targeted scapegoat, surpassing me. $ is a big anxiety for my mom and that is another reason she wants to cut off the service.

It's like watching a car accident in slow motion with vehicles coming from several directions.

Your mom sounds so much like mine, seeing the neighbors as her "fan club." They were thrilled that a meal service and HHA were started but my mom did not even leave those in place for a month before cancelling or planning/talking frequently about canceling at end of the month. The only neighbors who still interact with her all had narc or otherwise disordered or mentally ill mothers. They seem caught in her web but resentful. One is listing his house soon and the other travels for months at a time.

The HHA company also has an emergency service available, the owner would be available to go hospital since we all live far away. They also send a weekly report. It has been great, my sibs are fans too. But my mom does not factor in others and we can't prevent her from cancelling. But maybe a social worker could be a plan B. I guess there is always calling the police for welfare checks, too.

Yep, I have a sibling who kisses up to profit as well and she feeds mom's delusions. She makes a good living, but it's easy cash for her and she lives the farthest so she will use that as an excuse when an emergency happens.

One of the neighbors offered to do all sorts of things because she saw I was there a lot and knew mom wouldn't take her up on her offer. Now that I have backed off more, neighbor isn't offering and mom is livid.

Very interesting about people trying to drive wedges. We did find some help did this and to be honest I find the social worker gaslights me and makes me feel like the crazy one as she defends my mother. I realized it doesn't matter. I document our conversations. I also sleep easier knowing this woman is being paid a lot to ensure mom's safety and if things fall apart I will simply direct all complainers to her. She is paid by mom. That was one area where I actually "won" with mom but it came after many tantrums and insults and a lot of sleepless nights and therapy sessions sorting through it all, but even if I don't like the person, it gives me peace of mind to know a professional is assessing things because siblings live in denial and have their own agendas.

Re"the brother who doesn't care if she kills someone-very sad. That is where I draw the line and will cover every base (call cops, contact DMV, take car keys if I am able, call Adult Protective Services). I am not letting mom murder anyone. I have a sister like this. I do think part of it is deep denial.

Speaking of Adult Protective Services...they can also do welfare checks. Contrary to what people think, they don't operate like Child Protective Services. A friend of mine found them utterly useless with getting her mom to comply with the right level of care, but she appreciated they were willing to check on her mom.

If the HHA company will deal with emergencies, that is all you need. Just draw your boundaries with your mom of what you can and cannot do and what you consider her part (like accepting the help and not firing them). Mine tantrummed and hated me. It was painful. The thing is I made sure I did everything possible to be proactive. Now if I can't be there and things fall apart I know I tried. You have to let them live on their own terms as long as they don't harm anyone else.

[Anonymous]

Just had to share the karma, my mom has her narc match in her HHA. She told me that today the HHA, who is in her late 50s, showed her recent photos of herself in a bikini, then asked my mother what size pants she wears and crowed that hers are smaller. Surreal. So something that my mom did when a little younger.

The HHA does seem to take good care of her, is not lazy, cooks, drives, shops, even irons and also plays cards, etc. w/ my mom.

Nest of narcs, I'm happy to look on from afar, have to say.