Question about bikes in bike lanes and right hand turns.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, probably it's more important to learn how to prevent this from happening again than to discuss who was at fault, correct?

So, as a general rule:

1. Turn on your turn signal
2. Check to make sure there's nobody in the bike lane
3. Merge to the right in the merge area
4. Stop at the stop sign
5. Turn right

The idea is that you're turning right from the right lane, just like you'd do if there were no bike lane.

If you're turning right from the general lane, and there's a bike lane to the right of you, that's like turning right from the left lane of a street with two lanes going the same direction.

100% WRONG.

Cars are not to use the bike lane as a right turn lane. Ever. Bike lanes are for bikes. Period. They are not a turn lane for cars.

Sorry repeat to fix the quote formatting

The DC reg is written as follows:

2203.3​Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge or the roadway.

That would seem to imply you should be in the bike lane.

Also page 19 of this guide indicates that the driver was at fault because they didn’t get as far right as possible in the bike lane https://ddot.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/d...e-Law-Pocket-Guide-Oct2012.pdf

I still think the cyclist should have stopped in OPs example.

Absolutely. You merge into the bike lane over the dashed line (usually the last 10 feet or so) when it is safe to do so, that is, no bicyclists there. Then you turn right from the far right.

It's the correct legal thing to do and safer for me as a bicyclist. I'll either wait for you to turn or pass you on the left.

It sounds like you got this wrong and also the bicyclist didn't stop at the stop sign.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, probably it's more important to learn how to prevent this from happening again than to discuss who was at fault, correct?

So, as a general rule:

1. Turn on your turn signal
2. Check to make sure there's nobody in the bike lane
3. Merge to the right in the merge area
4. Stop at the stop sign
5. Turn right

The idea is that you're turning right from the right lane, just like you'd do if there were no bike lane.

If you're turning right from the general lane, and there's a bike lane to the right of you, that's like turning right from the left lane of a street with two lanes going the same direction.

+1
Simply, you need to take the lane. Take the bike lane when it’s safe and turn from there.

I do not think cars are ever permitted to drive in the bike lane except to go into a driveway or parking space.

Look at the end of many bike lanes approaching an intersection. There's a dashed line exactly for this reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, probably it's more important to learn how to prevent this from happening again than to discuss who was at fault, correct?

So, as a general rule:

1. Turn on your turn signal
2. Check to make sure there's nobody in the bike lane
3. Merge to the right in the merge area
4. Stop at the stop sign
5. Turn right

The idea is that you're turning right from the right lane, just like you'd do if there were no bike lane.

If you're turning right from the general lane, and there's a bike lane to the right of you, that's like turning right from the left lane of a street with two lanes going the same direction.

100% WRONG.

Cars are not to use the bike lane as a right turn lane. Ever. Bike lanes are for bikes. Period. They are not a turn lane for cars.

This is where you're wrong. At the end of many bike lanes there's a dashed line where drivers can merge right before turning.

Your suggestion is neither what's legally required or what's safest for us so stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was driving on Irving st NW a few hours ago, and also had a crash involving a cyclist.

The street has a dedicated, marked bike lane on the right side of the roadway. I came to a 4-way stop sign, and was going to turn right. I had my turn signal on and was sitting there for a moment because the car to my left had already stopped for the stop sign on their side, and had started to move across the intersection, so I had to wait for a bit longer than a normal stop before I could turn right.

As I started to pull away from the stop sign and make the turn, this I hear a loud shout, and then a thump, and look over my right shoulder and this guy on a bike was all the way up against the rear right side of my car and just slammed his hand down on the back window.

I stopped right there in the middle of the turn because I didn’t realize right away what had just happened. For a second I thought I’d run over him, but then realized I couldn’t have. And then he pedals around beside and is yelling about how I almost ran over him. Then he kept going. He looked unharmed to me.


Then I started thinking about what had to have happened, and if I was already stopped, and had my signal on and was turning, how could it be my fault? Don’t I have a right of way since I’m already at the stop sign? Is a cyclist allowed to pass a car in front of them that is turning right at a stop sign, if the car is already at the stop sign and starting to make a turn? The only possible way he could have been trying to go around me mid-turn was if he hadn’t stopped at the stop sign, and bikers are supposed to stop at stop signs. So I don’t see how any of this could’ve been me “almost running over him”.

Who is in the wrong here?

You were. Just another oblivious driver behind the wheel not paying attention to your surroundings. People like you are the bane of people like me. The exact same scenario has happened to me several times. I’ve almost run into the sides of cars on several occasions because some idiot turns in front of me. Most cyclists don’t do stop signs. We’re not a car so we’re not required to and it takes too much energy to stop at every block and then get back up to speed again. So we’re trying to maintain our cadence and momentum and when you stop and then turn you literally force us to run into you if we don’t take evasive action. You’re lucky he just pounded on your window. I would’ve smashed your car with my lock.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should let the biker come to a stop at the sign. They are coming up to an intersection and have no obligation to stop before reaching the sign. It’s like merging lanes, and you need the lane to be clear.

I am the OP

I’m not sure if I was clear in my explanation about when/where the man on the bike was when it happened. Maybe I didn’t do a go job of explaining it.

If you imagine pointing straight ahead through the intersection as 12 o’clock, and 3 o’clock as a completed right turn, I was at about 1:30 or so. I had been at the stop sign, stopped, waited on the car in front of me, and had then started making the turn about was not quite halfway through the turn when the man on the bicycle came up from behind me (he was going much faster than me because I was pulling into a turn from being stopped, and he was pedaling faster than me.

It’s pretty clear to me that he made no stop for the stop sign at all, otherwise there was no possibility he could’ve stopped and then accelerated again so quickly. So he must not have stopped at all and instead just tried to blow past me on the right side.

We didn’t both start out stopped at the stop sign together and begin moving forward at the same time with me turning into him. He was definitely coming up from behind me at a faster speed and definitely didn’t stop at the sign.

I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear the first time I explained it.

And are you absolutely certain that bikes do not have to stop at stop signs when other cars around? Because that seems incorrect to me. But I don’t have any law to cite it.

OP, are you looking for validation that the bicyclist should have stopped at the stop sign? Yes, the bicyclist should have stopped - or at least stopped as much as drivers stop, which is at best a slow roll.

However, if you had been turning from the correct position, all the way to the right at the curb, he wouldn't have been able to come up on your right side.

What you're describing is a right-hook crash, which can kill people on bicycles. In general, as a driver, you should move to the right and make sure there's nobody coming up behind you when you're turning right. In general, as a bicyclist, you should try to put yourself in a position where drivers are less likely to turn across your path - i.e., take the lane.

Incidentally, I've been in a few almost right-hook-crashes as a driver, where a driver in a lane to the left of me decided to turn right in front of my path. My awareness of right-hook crashes, from bicycling, helped me avoid the crash.

[Anonymous]

Your initial post did not indicate that you looked right before turning. You have a responsibility to look right before turning right to ensure there are no pedestrians or cyclists. That’s basic drivers education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your initial post did not indicate that you looked right before turning. You have a responsibility to look right before turning right to ensure there are no pedestrians or cyclists. That’s basic drivers education.

+1. And besides looking to the right drivers also should turn around and look carefully behind them when they’re about to take a right turn. Any turn actually. A cyclist coming up fast from behind you and preparing to pass you on your right as you’re sitting at a stop sign or traffic light is going to get hooked just like you described.I don’t want this whole thing to become yet another discussion of whether cyclists should be stopping at stop signs or red lights. That’s just a strawman argument that drivers use to try and shift the blame to the person on the bike. The fact is most riders do not stop for stop signs and traffic lights. I don’t. I never do. But it’s also fact that if you’re a driver you’re in metal cage that protects you. So even if I’m in the wrong I’m still going to suffer disproportionately in terms of damage or injuries. With that in mind you should do everything you could to minimize the risk to me and that means assuming I’m not stopping for stop signs or red lights. If you drive defensively and have situational awareness you won’t lose a danger to me regardless of what I do. You’re in the cage. I’m not. It’s on you to protect me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your initial post did not indicate that you looked right before turning. You have a responsibility to look right before turning right to ensure there are no pedestrians or cyclists. That’s basic drivers education.

+1. And besides looking to the right drivers also should turn around and look carefully behind them when they’re about to take a right turn. Any turn actually. A cyclist coming up fast from behind you and preparing to pass you on your right as you’re sitting at a stop sign or traffic light is going to get hooked just like you described.I don’t want this whole thing to become yet another discussion of whether cyclists should be stopping at stop signs or red lights. That’s just a strawman argument that drivers use to try and shift the blame to the person on the bike. The fact is most riders do not stop for stop signs and traffic lights. I don’t. I never do. But it’s also fact that if you’re a driver you’re in metal cage that protects you. So even if I’m in the wrong I’m still going to suffer disproportionately in terms of damage or injuries. With that in mind you should do everything you could to minimize the risk to me and that means assuming I’m not stopping for stop signs or red lights. If you drive defensively and have situational awareness you won’t lose a danger to me regardless of what I do. You’re in the cage. I’m not. It’s on you to protect me.

I will add to this that regardless of who is found at fault, everyone has a responsibility to do everything they can to prevent an accident. Obviously no one wants to be involved in this sort of thing--causing injuries to another, dealing with insurance companies and potentially lawyers, etc. Best thing to do is simply look. You cannot trust cycles or other drivers to be cautious, so you have to be defense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was driving on Irving st NW a few hours ago, and also had a crash involving a cyclist.

The street has a dedicated, marked bike lane on the right side of the roadway. I came to a 4-way stop sign, and was going to turn right. I had my turn signal on and was sitting there for a moment because the car to my left had already stopped for the stop sign on their side, and had started to move across the intersection, so I had to wait for a bit longer than a normal stop before I could turn right.

As I started to pull away from the stop sign and make the turn, this I hear a loud shout, and then a thump, and look over my right shoulder and this guy on a bike was all the way up against the rear right side of my car and just slammed his hand down on the back window.

I stopped right there in the middle of the turn because I didn’t realize right away what had just happened. For a second I thought I’d run over him, but then realized I couldn’t have. And then he pedals around beside and is yelling about how I almost ran over him. Then he kept going. He looked unharmed to me.


Then I started thinking about what had to have happened, and if I was already stopped, and had my signal on and was turning, how could it be my fault? Don’t I have a right of way since I’m already at the stop sign? Is a cyclist allowed to pass a car in front of them that is turning right at a stop sign, if the car is already at the stop sign and starting to make a turn? The only possible way he could have been trying to go around me mid-turn was if he hadn’t stopped at the stop sign, and bikers are supposed to stop at stop signs. So I don’t see how any of this could’ve been me “almost running over him”.

Who is in the wrong here?

You were. Just another oblivious driver behind the wheel not paying attention to your surroundings. People like you are the bane of people like me. The exact same scenario has happened to me several times. I’ve almost run into the sides of cars on several occasions because some idiot turns in front of me. Most cyclists don’t do stop signs. We’re not a car so we’re not required to and it takes too much energy to stop at every block and then get back up to speed again. So we’re trying to maintain our cadence and momentum and when you stop and then turn you literally force us to run into you if we don’t take evasive action. You’re lucky he just pounded on your window. I would’ve smashed your car with my lock.

You are 100% wrong. You are required to stop at a stop sign. When you blow one and get hit, you’ll be charged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was driving on Irving st NW a few hours ago, and also had a crash involving a cyclist.

The street has a dedicated, marked bike lane on the right side of the roadway. I came to a 4-way stop sign, and was going to turn right. I had my turn signal on and was sitting there for a moment because the car to my left had already stopped for the stop sign on their side, and had started to move across the intersection, so I had to wait for a bit longer than a normal stop before I could turn right.

As I started to pull away from the stop sign and make the turn, this I hear a loud shout, and then a thump, and look over my right shoulder and this guy on a bike was all the way up against the rear right side of my car and just slammed his hand down on the back window.

I stopped right there in the middle of the turn because I didn’t realize right away what had just happened. For a second I thought I’d run over him, but then realized I couldn’t have. And then he pedals around beside and is yelling about how I almost ran over him. Then he kept going. He looked unharmed to me.


Then I started thinking about what had to have happened, and if I was already stopped, and had my signal on and was turning, how could it be my fault? Don’t I have a right of way since I’m already at the stop sign? Is a cyclist allowed to pass a car in front of them that is turning right at a stop sign, if the car is already at the stop sign and starting to make a turn? The only possible way he could have been trying to go around me mid-turn was if he hadn’t stopped at the stop sign, and bikers are supposed to stop at stop signs. So I don’t see how any of this could’ve been me “almost running over him”.

Who is in the wrong here?

You were. Just another oblivious driver behind the wheel not paying attention to your surroundings. People like you are the bane of people like me. The exact same scenario has happened to me several times. I’ve almost run into the sides of cars on several occasions because some idiot turns in front of me. Most cyclists don’t do stop signs. We’re not a car so we’re not required to and it takes too much energy to stop at every block and then get back up to speed again. So we’re trying to maintain our cadence and momentum and when you stop and then turn you literally force us to run into you if we don’t take evasive action. You’re lucky he just pounded on your window. I would’ve smashed your car with my lock.

I agree that the OP did a couple of things wrong (not merging all the way to the right, not checking to see if she was clear). But please cite the DC law or regulation that supports your position that since a cyclist isn't a car, she isn't required to stop at a stop sign.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was driving on Irving st NW a few hours ago, and also had a crash involving a cyclist.

The street has a dedicated, marked bike lane on the right side of the roadway. I came to a 4-way stop sign, and was going to turn right. I had my turn signal on and was sitting there for a moment because the car to my left had already stopped for the stop sign on their side, and had started to move across the intersection, so I had to wait for a bit longer than a normal stop before I could turn right.

As I started to pull away from the stop sign and make the turn, this I hear a loud shout, and then a thump, and look over my right shoulder and this guy on a bike was all the way up against the rear right side of my car and just slammed his hand down on the back window.

I stopped right there in the middle of the turn because I didn’t realize right away what had just happened. For a second I thought I’d run over him, but then realized I couldn’t have. And then he pedals around beside and is yelling about how I almost ran over him. Then he kept going. He looked unharmed to me.


Then I started thinking about what had to have happened, and if I was already stopped, and had my signal on and was turning, how could it be my fault? Don’t I have a right of way since I’m already at the stop sign? Is a cyclist allowed to pass a car in front of them that is turning right at a stop sign, if the car is already at the stop sign and starting to make a turn? The only possible way he could have been trying to go around me mid-turn was if he hadn’t stopped at the stop sign, and bikers are supposed to stop at stop signs. So I don’t see how any of this could’ve been me “almost running over him”.

Who is in the wrong here?

You were. Just another oblivious driver behind the wheel not paying attention to your surroundings. People like you are the bane of people like me. The exact same scenario has happened to me several times. I’ve almost run into the sides of cars on several occasions because some idiot turns in front of me. Most cyclists don’t do stop signs. We’re not a car so we’re not required to and it takes too much energy to stop at every block and then get back up to speed again. So we’re trying to maintain our cadence and momentum and when you stop and then turn you literally force us to run into you if we don’t take evasive action. You’re lucky he just pounded on your window. I would’ve smashed your car with my lock.

I agree that the OP did a couple of things wrong (not merging all the way to the right, not checking to see if she was clear). But please cite the DC law or regulation that supports your position that since a cyclist isn't a car, she isn't required to stop at a stop sign.

+1 I agree that the driver is responsible for not ensuring that the path was clear to make that right and it’s somewhat hard to believe that a cyclist pulling up to a car stopped at an intersection with a right hand turn signal flashing would attempt to draw parallel. That said, cyclists enjoy the rights of a car on the streets but also bear the same responsibilities.

[Anonymous]

Car was 100% at fault.
You pull over to make a right: otherwise you right hook a biker.

"Drivers should signal and when clear, merge into the bike lane before turning right. That's right, some cars should be in our lane. Many bike lanes indicate this area - called a mixing zone - with a dashed white line"

https://www.missionbicycle.com/blog/mixing-zone

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was driving on Irving st NW a few hours ago, and also had a crash involving a cyclist.

The street has a dedicated, marked bike lane on the right side of the roadway. I came to a 4-way stop sign, and was going to turn right. I had my turn signal on and was sitting there for a moment because the car to my left had already stopped for the stop sign on their side, and had started to move across the intersection, so I had to wait for a bit longer than a normal stop before I could turn right.

As I started to pull away from the stop sign and make the turn, this I hear a loud shout, and then a thump, and look over my right shoulder and this guy on a bike was all the way up against the rear right side of my car and just slammed his hand down on the back window.

I stopped right there in the middle of the turn because I didn’t realize right away what had just happened. For a second I thought I’d run over him, but then realized I couldn’t have. And then he pedals around beside and is yelling about how I almost ran over him. Then he kept going. He looked unharmed to me.


Then I started thinking about what had to have happened, and if I was already stopped, and had my signal on and was turning, how could it be my fault? Don’t I have a right of way since I’m already at the stop sign? Is a cyclist allowed to pass a car in front of them that is turning right at a stop sign, if the car is already at the stop sign and starting to make a turn? The only possible way he could have been trying to go around me mid-turn was if he hadn’t stopped at the stop sign, and bikers are supposed to stop at stop signs. So I don’t see how any of this could’ve been me “almost running over him”.

Who is in the wrong here?

You were. Just another oblivious driver behind the wheel not paying attention to your surroundings. People like you are the bane of people like me. The exact same scenario has happened to me several times. I’ve almost run into the sides of cars on several occasions because some idiot turns in front of me. Most cyclists don’t do stop signs. We’re not a car so we’re not required to and it takes too much energy to stop at every block and then get back up to speed again. So we’re trying to maintain our cadence and momentum and when you stop and then turn you literally force us to run into you if we don’t take evasive action. You’re lucky he just pounded on your window. I would’ve smashed your car with my lock.

You are 100% wrong. You are required to stop at a stop sign. When you blow one and get hit, you’ll be charged.

It’s accepted practice that bikes don’t have to stop for stop signs or red lights. I don’t care what the law says. If it’s a law and almost no one follows it then it’s not really a real law. It might be on the books but in reality cyclists do not have to stop for stop signs or red lights. Don’t like that ? Too bad so sad get over it. The whole rest of the world basically disagrees with you so you’re the one in the wrong here regardless of whatever the law says.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was driving on Irving st NW a few hours ago, and also had a crash involving a cyclist.

The street has a dedicated, marked bike lane on the right side of the roadway. I came to a 4-way stop sign, and was going to turn right. I had my turn signal on and was sitting there for a moment because the car to my left had already stopped for the stop sign on their side, and had started to move across the intersection, so I had to wait for a bit longer than a normal stop before I could turn right.

As I started to pull away from the stop sign and make the turn, this I hear a loud shout, and then a thump, and look over my right shoulder and this guy on a bike was all the way up against the rear right side of my car and just slammed his hand down on the back window.

I stopped right there in the middle of the turn because I didn’t realize right away what had just happened. For a second I thought I’d run over him, but then realized I couldn’t have. And then he pedals around beside and is yelling about how I almost ran over him. Then he kept going. He looked unharmed to me.


Then I started thinking about what had to have happened, and if I was already stopped, and had my signal on and was turning, how could it be my fault? Don’t I have a right of way since I’m already at the stop sign? Is a cyclist allowed to pass a car in front of them that is turning right at a stop sign, if the car is already at the stop sign and starting to make a turn? The only possible way he could have been trying to go around me mid-turn was if he hadn’t stopped at the stop sign, and bikers are supposed to stop at stop signs. So I don’t see how any of this could’ve been me “almost running over him”.

Who is in the wrong here?

You were. Just another oblivious driver behind the wheel not paying attention to your surroundings. People like you are the bane of people like me. The exact same scenario has happened to me several times. I’ve almost run into the sides of cars on several occasions because some idiot turns in front of me. Most cyclists don’t do stop signs. We’re not a car so we’re not required to and it takes too much energy to stop at every block and then get back up to speed again. So we’re trying to maintain our cadence and momentum and when you stop and then turn you literally force us to run into you if we don’t take evasive action. You’re lucky he just pounded on your window. I would’ve smashed your car with my lock.

I agree that the OP did a couple of things wrong (not merging all the way to the right, not checking to see if she was clear). But please cite the DC law or regulation that supports your position that since a cyclist isn't a car, she isn't required to stop at a stop sign.

+1 I agree that the driver is responsible for not ensuring that the path was clear to make that right and it’s somewhat hard to believe that a cyclist pulling up to a car stopped at an intersection with a right hand turn signal flashing would attempt to draw parallel. That said, cyclists enjoy the rights of a car on the streets but also bear the same responsibilities.

All of it could’ve been avoided if she had just looked all the way around behind her before she started to make her turn.

It also sounds like she was sitting at the stop sign for an inordinate amount of time. Probably on her phone or not paying attention and sitting there stopped forever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was driving on Irving st NW a few hours ago, and also had a crash involving a cyclist.

The street has a dedicated, marked bike lane on the right side of the roadway. I came to a 4-way stop sign, and was going to turn right. I had my turn signal on and was sitting there for a moment because the car to my left had already stopped for the stop sign on their side, and had started to move across the intersection, so I had to wait for a bit longer than a normal stop before I could turn right.

As I started to pull away from the stop sign and make the turn, this I hear a loud shout, and then a thump, and look over my right shoulder and this guy on a bike was all the way up against the rear right side of my car and just slammed his hand down on the back window.

I stopped right there in the middle of the turn because I didn’t realize right away what had just happened. For a second I thought I’d run over him, but then realized I couldn’t have. And then he pedals around beside and is yelling about how I almost ran over him. Then he kept going. He looked unharmed to me.


Then I started thinking about what had to have happened, and if I was already stopped, and had my signal on and was turning, how could it be my fault? Don’t I have a right of way since I’m already at the stop sign? Is a cyclist allowed to pass a car in front of them that is turning right at a stop sign, if the car is already at the stop sign and starting to make a turn? The only possible way he could have been trying to go around me mid-turn was if he hadn’t stopped at the stop sign, and bikers are supposed to stop at stop signs. So I don’t see how any of this could’ve been me “almost running over him”.

Who is in the wrong here?

You were. Just another oblivious driver behind the wheel not paying attention to your surroundings. People like you are the bane of people like me. The exact same scenario has happened to me several times. I’ve almost run into the sides of cars on several occasions because some idiot turns in front of me. Most cyclists don’t do stop signs. We’re not a car so we’re not required to and it takes too much energy to stop at every block and then get back up to speed again. So we’re trying to maintain our cadence and momentum and when you stop and then turn you literally force us to run into you if we don’t take evasive action. You’re lucky he just pounded on your window. I would’ve smashed your car with my lock.

You are 100% wrong. You are required to stop at a stop sign. When you blow one and get hit, you’ll be charged.

It’s accepted practice that bikes don’t have to stop for stop signs or red lights. I don’t care what the law says. If it’s a law and almost no one follows it then it’s not really a real law. It might be on the books but in reality cyclists do not have to stop for stop signs or red lights. Don’t like that ? Too bad so sad get over it. The whole rest of the world basically disagrees with you so you’re the one in the wrong here regardless of whatever the law says.

As a cyclist who stops at red lights and stop signs I utterly and completely despise you and your Neolithic attitude. You give us all a bad name and increase the danger presented to us by pissed off motorists. And your assessment of the law is what one might expect from a fairly average six year old.