Looks like a new Gaza war has started

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re-posting with fixed link.

Israel bombed a Christian church that dates back to the 12th century, killing relatives of former MI rep Justin Amash.

They did not target the church itself.

Right, they targeted an adjacent building where Christians, including former rep. Amash's relatives, were sheltering, killing them. And they knew it would damage the historic church.

There was a Hamas command center next to the church. Would your recommendation be that Israel just leave the command center be?

Former rep. Amash's relatives were not members of Hamas. They didn't need to die. You're the king of false dilemmas.

I’m not sure you’re clear on what collateral damage is.

Collateral damage is warfare propaganda by countries that are not held accountable.

I guess Christian lives don't matter. They're just "collateral damage".

Lives matter. All lives lost in war are collateral damage of the failure to settle for peace. Stop.

Don't tell me to stop. Tell that to Israel and the posters on here out for blood revenge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is quickly losing the moral high Israelis have killed thousands of Palestinian children--how many of those were Hamas? I get that innocents are accidentally killed in war, but Israel's strategy is to kill Palestinians--including exploding buildings with babies and elderly--as an excuse for routing out Hamas. There is no interpretation of just war that allows for the ratio of civilians to militants killed to be that high. NONE.
Israel has blood on its hands now. Reasonable people understood the horror of Hamas' killing of Israeli civilians. The same reasonable people also see that what Israel's killing of hundreds, if not thousands, of children of Gaza is morally reprehensible and not justifiable under any circumstance. Schande.

Please provide a citation for your assertion that that’s Israel’s strategy.

Otherwise I’ll just assume you’re talking out of your ass.

What is Israel's strategy? How many of the hundreds, if not thousands, of Palestinians killed by Israelis are Hamas militants? And let's assume that half of those killed are babies, toddlers, children. How many humans have Israelis killed in Gaza are Hamas? How many are civliians?

Hamas could defend their people if they weren’t such cowards hiding behind their women and children. Encourage Hamas to crawl out of their tunnels and engage the IDF in a fight. You know they won’t because they simply view their people as pawns to be used to further their brutality.

So answer the questions, or are you admitting that the IDF is knowingly killing far more civilians than Hamas militants? That is a war crime. And yes, Hamas is despicable, but Israel should not respond by committing war crimes in return.

Hamas is knowingly and willingly using its own people to cower behind. They are the ones condemning the Palestinians of Gaza to death all because they are frightened of Israelis. The war crime is entirely theirs.
Encourage Hamas’ fighters to emerge from hiding behind their women and children. Hamas won’t of course because they don’t value the lives of their own innocents.
Hamas are cowards who can do nothing but destroy the lives of innocents.

Again, Israel should not be committing war crimes by killing a disproportionate number of civilians to militants. You are so blinded that you cannot see that the IDF are committing war crimes. War crimes are never justified; even if your enemy is committing them. Hamas as committed atrocious war crimes, but you do not seem to understand that Israel is not morally in the right by decimating hundreds of innocent children in Gaza as "collateral" damage.

Hamas should then emerge from hiding and fight. But everyone knows they are cowards who will just as eagerly sacrifice the lives of Israeli innocents as they will their own women and children who they force to shield them and their worthless lives.
Did you expect anything less though from the government of Hamas whose own charter only classifies women as the bearers of men?

Hamas did emerge to fight in Israel. They only took all those hostages over to Gaza because according to people at the kibbutz, cops and military didn’t arrive for hours.

When they finally did emerge, Israelis that (Hamas had taken as shields) were also being killed in the crossfire .

One of the poor hostages , the 85 year old woman, said Hamas sent balloons and threats in the days or weeks prior so there were was a warning And Israel knew this attack was coming.

I would assume anything she says and does publicly is because her husband is still a hostage. I would not believe anything she says because it is under duress.

And if her husband compliments Hamas too, then what? Stockholm syndrome?

Please tell me you’re not trying to argue that they truly had a nice experience with Hamas.

There’s nothing nice about being captured by a kill squad but humane treatment -yes. That is what she is saying . She also said the kibbutz got several warnings in the weeks prior of Hamas’ entry and they were ignored by the Shin Bet and IDF. I also believe her 100%.

What reason would she have to lie? She’s fully cognizant and isn’t senile

So Hamas won’t execute her husband.

Hamas never executes or
Tortures any Israeli held hostage. Even Gilad Shalit , an IDF soldier, who was held for five years by Hamas said that he was treated humanely . Hamas claims to follow Islamic
Rules regarding treating captives humanely whatever that means

I actually think Hezbollah and the Lebanese front is actually a bigger problem for Israel . I think they are crazier than Hamas

I see. So if you are lucky enough to be captured rather than being a Thai farm worker slowly beheaded by a garden hoe, the people who did the beheading will treat you just fine and won’t torture you. Good to know.

They beheaded someone with a garden hoe? I know atrocities occurred, but I haven't gone deeply down that rabbit hole (for my own mental/emotional health). Not denying it, just appalled.

Yes. And they did it slowly. A day or two ago the video was still on Twitter, and I believe is widely available elsewhere if you look, although I don’t recommend it as I cannot unsee it. The Thai farm worker was visibly struggling in between each blow.

And, be aware that they didn't even bother taking the Thai workers hostage because they knew the Thai government wouldn't speak up for them.

This really shows how any Western armchair leftist gets it wrong. The Palestinians aren't really "POC" to begin with, and they certainly didn't recognize any solidarity with these poor workers who are certainly "POC".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an American taxpayer with no real interest in how the problem is resolved, I feel used by Israel. I feel like they have so abused their position of power and authority (and my money) and are now attempting to drag my country and our soldiers into this war.

All the relentless comparisons to ISIS and Nazis are hyperbolic. There is no existential threat to Israel or the Jewish people. There does seem to be an existential threat to the Palestinian people.

I am for pulling out of the MidEast permanently. Let them solve their problems without any more US money or interference.

You are wrong about that. If the US pulled support of Israel, it would be the end of Israel.

It is past time the US stopped shielding Israel from its war crimes.

If Israel needs to commit a genocide to exit, then maybe the Israel shouldn’t exist. The third reich is gone, but Germans are thriving. Israel could end and Jews could live in a new democracy that doesn’t require keeping Palestinians in a concentration camp or killing them en masse.

Jews have a right to live in peace, in Israel. You can abhor war, but you can’t say you oppose genocide and want Israel wiped off the map at the same time. Palestinians and Israelis can and should coexist in the region. I will never not support the rights of both. You should try it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rania, the Palestinian-born Queen of Jordan, speaks out:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/24/middleeast/queen-rania-jordan-amanpour-interview-intl/index.html

Hey Rania -- why not give the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in refugee camps in Jordan citizenship?

They are treated like second class citizens, without the full rights of other Jordanians.

Terrible.

Hey Bibi/Israel, why not give back Palestinian land you've stolen?

Oh, do you mean like Israel tried to do in 2000 with the two-state deal and 95% of 1967 borders? And financial reparations?

Let's discuss those brand new settlements in the West Bank......

Great! If Arafat had accepted the deal, those brand new settlements would not exist and that's a fact. Palestine would be 23 years old.

So the settlers currently stealing Palestinian land and killing Palestinians are doing so because of Arafat?

Here is an article that attempts to capture the failures of each side in the Oslo Accords.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/why-the-oslo-accords-failed/

The squatters can do that because they are protected by a militarized state that is given cover by an even larger militarized state.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re-posting with fixed link.

Israel bombed a Christian church that dates back to the 12th century, killing relatives of former MI rep Justin Amash.

They did not target the church itself.

Right, they targeted an adjacent building where Christians, including former rep. Amash's relatives, were sheltering, killing them. And they knew it would damage the historic church.

There was a Hamas command center next to the church. Would your recommendation be that Israel just leave the command center be?

Former rep. Amash's relatives were not members of Hamas. They didn't need to die. You're the king of false dilemmas.

I’m not sure you’re clear on what collateral damage is.

Collateral damage is warfare propaganda by countries that are not held accountable.

I guess Christian lives don't matter. They're just "collateral damage".

Lives matter. All lives lost in war are collateral damage of the failure to settle for peace. Stop.

Don't tell me to stop. Tell that to Israel and the posters on here out for blood revenge.

What are you here for then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re-posting with fixed link.

Israel bombed a Christian church that dates back to the 12th century, killing relatives of former MI rep Justin Amash.

They did not target the church itself.

Right, they targeted an adjacent building where Christians, including former rep. Amash's relatives, were sheltering, killing them. And they knew it would damage the historic church.

There was a Hamas command center next to the church. Would your recommendation be that Israel just leave the command center be?

Former rep. Amash's relatives were not members of Hamas. They didn't need to die. You're the king of false dilemmas.

I’m not sure you’re clear on what collateral damage is.

Collateral damage is warfare propaganda by countries that are not held accountable.

I guess Christian lives don't matter. They're just "collateral damage".

Terming something as collateral damage doesn’t mean their lives don’t matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an American taxpayer with no real interest in how the problem is resolved, I feel used by Israel. I feel like they have so abused their position of power and authority (and my money) and are now attempting to drag my country and our soldiers into this war.

All the relentless comparisons to ISIS and Nazis are hyperbolic. There is no existential threat to Israel or the Jewish people. There does seem to be an existential threat to the Palestinian people.

I am for pulling out of the MidEast permanently. Let them solve their problems without any more US money or interference.

You are wrong about that. If the US pulled support of Israel, it would be the end of Israel.

It is past time the US stopped shielding Israel from its war crimes.

If Israel needs to commit a genocide to exit, then maybe the Israel shouldn’t exist. The third reich is gone, but Germans are thriving. Israel could end and Jews could live in a new democracy that doesn’t require keeping Palestinians in a concentration camp or killing them en masse.

I’m the PP who made the original comment as a US taxpayer. I am not opposed at all to Israel existing. I think there’s probably some value to the US in its existence.

But I am opposed to being dragged into an endless abyss of war because a madman war criminal (Netanyahu) can blow the region to smithereens.

No. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an American taxpayer with no real interest in how the problem is resolved, I feel used by Israel. I feel like they have so abused their position of power and authority (and my money) and are now attempting to drag my country and our soldiers into this war.

All the relentless comparisons to ISIS and Nazis are hyperbolic. There is no existential threat to Israel or the Jewish people. There does seem to be an existential threat to the Palestinian people.

I am for pulling out of the MidEast permanently. Let them solve their problems without any more US money or interference.

You are wrong about that. If the US pulled support of Israel, it would be the end of Israel.

It is past time the US stopped shielding Israel from its war crimes.

If Israel needs to commit a genocide to exit, then maybe the Israel shouldn’t exist. The third reich is gone, but Germans are thriving. Israel could end and Jews could live in a new democracy that doesn’t require keeping Palestinians in a concentration camp or killing them en masse.

Jews have a right to live in peace, in Israel. You can abhor war, but you can’t say you oppose genocide and want Israel wiped off the map at the same time. Palestinians and Israelis can and should coexist in the region. I will never not support the rights of both. You should try it.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an American taxpayer with no real interest in how the problem is resolved, I feel used by Israel. I feel like they have so abused their position of power and authority (and my money) and are now attempting to drag my country and our soldiers into this war.

All the relentless comparisons to ISIS and Nazis are hyperbolic. There is no existential threat to Israel or the Jewish people. There does seem to be an existential threat to the Palestinian people.

I am for pulling out of the MidEast permanently. Let them solve their problems without any more US money or interference.

You are wrong about that. If the US pulled support of Israel, it would be the end of Israel.

nope

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rania, the Palestinian-born Queen of Jordan, speaks out:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/24/middleeast/queen-rania-jordan-amanpour-interview-intl/index.html

Hey Rania -- why not give the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in refugee camps in Jordan citizenship?

They are treated like second class citizens, without the full rights of other Jordanians.

Terrible.

Hey Bibi/Israel, why not give back Palestinian land you've stolen?

Oh, do you mean like Israel tried to do in 2000 with the two-state deal and 95% of 1967 borders? And financial reparations?

Let's discuss those brand new settlements in the West Bank......

We could argue all day and night about why the two state solution failed, but it was not a bad idea and there is blame to go around on both sides.

But let’s be clear on what happened:

2000: Camp David accords, which Arafat walked away from

Second Intifada happened as the result of that failure

That ended in Feb 2005, in part because Israel withdrew from Gaza.

Gaza held elections in 2005, and Hamas was elected.

"Territorial contiguity
In the proposed Palestinian state, Gaza Strip would be discontinuous from the West Bank. The degree to which the West Bank itself would be dis-contiguous is disputed. Noam Chomsky writes that the West Bank would have been divided into three cantons and Palestinian East Jerusalem would have constituted the fourth canton; all 4 cantons would be separated from one another by Israeli territory.[13] Other sources also said that the proposed West Bank would be divided into three cantons.[14][15][16] By contrast, Ehud Barak said the West Bank would only be divided by a wedge of Israeli territory stretching from Maale Adumim to the Jordan River, but would otherwise be continuous.[17]

The Palestinians reacted strongly negatively to the proposed cantonization of the West Bank into three blocs, which the Palestinian delegation likened to South African Bantustans, a loaded word that was disputed by the Israeli and American negotiators.[18] Settlement blocs, bypassed roads and annexed lands would create barriers between Nablus and Jenin with Ramallah. The Ramallah bloc would in turn be divided from Bethlehem and Hebron. A separate and smaller bloc would contain Jericho. Further, the border between West Bank and Jordan would additionally be under Israeli control. The Palestinian Authority would receive pockets of East Jerusalem which would be surrounded entirely by annexed lands in the West Bank.[19]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit

I can't imagine why they walked away from that deal.

Israel also would not be contiguous.

Facts are hard.

Please don’t respond if you don’t even understand the words you are using, such as the word “contiguous.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an American taxpayer with no real interest in how the problem is resolved, I feel used by Israel. I feel like they have so abused their position of power and authority (and my money) and are now attempting to drag my country and our soldiers into this war.

All the relentless comparisons to ISIS and Nazis are hyperbolic. There is no existential threat to Israel or the Jewish people. There does seem to be an existential threat to the Palestinian people.

I am for pulling out of the MidEast permanently. Let them solve their problems without any more US money or interference.

You are wrong about that. If the US pulled support of Israel, it would be the end of Israel.

It is past time the US stopped shielding Israel from its war crimes.

If Israel needs to commit a genocide to exit, then maybe the Israel shouldn’t exist. The third reich is gone, but Germans are thriving. Israel could end and Jews could live in a new democracy that doesn’t require keeping Palestinians in a concentration camp or killing them en masse.

Explain to me how Israel ends and Jews live in a new democracy.

Where does that democracy exist? Who runs it?

[Anonymous]

When the UN secretary speaks neutrally with a huge emphasis on Israels rights, Israel goes bonkers and asks for his resignation and labels him a terrorist apologist. That’s the world we live in

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No Palestinian ever called me the n word.

So you look at everything through the lens of whether someone from a given group happened to say something nasty to you.

What a myopic, self-involved response.

+1. African American here to say this conflict cannot be mapped onto a US race relations framework and I deeply wish people would stop trying to shoehorn it into one. It is offensive to compare Hamas actions in Gaza to Nat Turner’s slave revolt or other uprisings against *actual chattel slavery* (as I have seen Norman Finkelstein and other critics of Israel do) and it is ridiculous that BLM and other community “leaders” tolerate this appropriation of the African American experience. What happened to the left’s babbling about “cultural appropriation”??? Hamas’s violence is not entitled to the moral high ground that abolitionists occupied. Last I checked, American slaves did not have an entire UN agency, multiple NGOs and wealthy state donors tending to them while they worked out their political issues. Stop comparing yourselves to us. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

+1

Very well said.

It makes me very, very uncomfortable when I see white far leftists compare Hamas to Nat Turner favorably. It is awful and thoughtless cultural appropriation.

+1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an American taxpayer with no real interest in how the problem is resolved, I feel used by Israel. I feel like they have so abused their position of power and authority (and my money) and are now attempting to drag my country and our soldiers into this war.

All the relentless comparisons to ISIS and Nazis are hyperbolic. There is no existential threat to Israel or the Jewish people. There does seem to be an existential threat to the Palestinian people.

I am for pulling out of the MidEast permanently. Let them solve their problems without any more US money or interference.

You are wrong about that. If the US pulled support of Israel, it would be the end of Israel.

nope

It’s 100% true, and Bibi knows it. That’s why he listens to the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rania, the Palestinian-born Queen of Jordan, speaks out:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/24/middleeast/queen-rania-jordan-amanpour-interview-intl/index.html

Hey Rania -- why not give the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in refugee camps in Jordan citizenship?

They are treated like second class citizens, without the full rights of other Jordanians.

Terrible.

Hey Bibi/Israel, why not give back Palestinian land you've stolen?

Oh, do you mean like Israel tried to do in 2000 with the two-state deal and 95% of 1967 borders? And financial reparations?

Let's discuss those brand new settlements in the West Bank......

Great! If Arafat had accepted the deal, those brand new settlements would not exist and that's a fact. Palestine would be 23 years old.

So the settlers currently stealing Palestinian land and killing Palestinians are doing so because of Arafat?

Here is an article that attempts to capture the failures of each side in the Oslo Accords.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/why-the-oslo-accords-failed/

The squatters can do that because they are protected by a militarized state that is given cover by an even larger militarized state.

I would not have taken the “great deal” if I were Palestinian. It totally ignored the right of Palestinians to return to their homes. Why would they just give that up? That was a bad deal.