Complete isolation of small children is abusive

[Anonymous]

Exactly. My parents were born during the Great Depression. My mother's family lost their home. They had to ask their church for food. My mother received supplemental food at school because she was so thin the school was pretty certain she was starving. My mother still talks of the shame of "accepting relief" and she is nearly 90 now.

My father and his family of 5 lived in a one-bedroom apartment their entire lives until he left to serve in the Army in the Korean Conflict (war). His mother had emigrated from Ireland and his father was raised in an orphanage because his parents died in the influenza pandemic in 1918. His father refused til the day he died to ever talk about life in the orphanage.

These circumstances were not relieved until the economic opportunities of WW2 came about.

*We were raised middle class and we were raised to respect these circumstances*. In other words, *Put things in perspective.* Having to stay home -- hey! you have a home! -- with your parents is actually a privilege. That means you have food on the table -- or are you standing in line at the food bank?

This.is.not.hardship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is nuts. You do realize that it wasn't until very recently in society that we started sending kids under 6 to school at all, right?

Until K or 1st grade, the vast majority of kids in the vast majority of the world were at home with family the vast majority of the time. Some still are. This is...not a big deal, socially or developmentally speaking.

Kids at home til K in the past had at least some of the following: neighborhood friends, music/art/sports class, siblings, nearby extended family, playgrounds, events, holidays/birthdays with guests.

For 5 months, my young child had none of the above, just mom and dad. Not normal.

Music, arts, and sports for preschoolers are a pretty new idea. Historically many families lived in rural areas without neighborhood friends and every one of those families that didn’t have twins had an oldest child who at 3 or 4 didn’t have a sibling old enough to really play with, given that kids don’t move past parallel play until 3.5 or so.

This is just not true. Where do people get the idea that in “the olden days” everyone was a farmer or a homesteader? Nope, people have always congregated and formed social groups. Cities and towns are the norm, not isolated farmhouses (and on a truly isolated farm, there would be tons of kids from the numerous families who lived on and worked the farm). Raising kids has also historically been a social activity shared among relatives, neighbors, and other community members. How do you all think children survived all these wars and famines you keep referring to? Through community.

What is ahistorical is nuclear families living far from relatives and isolated from their neighbors and communities. It is atypical for communities in crisis to ignore the needs of children in favor of hedonistic activities and raising capital— this runs counter to the human impulse to protect children for the sake of society. It’s weird. What is wrong with us?

This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Exactly. My parents were born during the Great Depression. My mother's family lost their home. They had to ask their church for food. My mother received supplemental food at school because she was so thin the school was pretty certain she was starving. My mother still talks of the shame of "accepting relief" and she is nearly 90 now.

My father and his family of 5 lived in a one-bedroom apartment their entire lives until he left to serve in the Army in the Korean Conflict (war). His mother had emigrated from Ireland and his father was raised in an orphanage because his parents died in the influenza pandemic in 1918. His father refused til the day he died to ever talk about life in the orphanage.

These circumstances were not relieved until the economic opportunities of WW2 came about.

*We were raised middle class and we were raised to respect these circumstances*. In other words, *Put things in perspective.* Having to stay home -- hey! you have a home! -- with your parents is actually a privilege. That means you have food on the table -- or are you standing in line at the food bank?

This.is.not.hardship.

Yep, exactly. I hear so much complaining from other parents and it’s like, get some perspective. If you have a roof over your head, food, clean water, and no one in your family has been affected by covid you should be grateful. Your children are fine.

[Anonymous]

My kids were quite content at home with me when they were little. My DH and I were providing the companionship and play. Small children do not play with each other. They parallel play.

My parents would visit for several months at a time and my DD was content to spend time with them. So I have no idea why everyone is feeling that little kids are sad?

Pay attention to them. Take them for walks. Let them play with bubbles and silly putty. Take them to park. Feed them nice tasty food. Read them stories. Give them finger paint soap to color on the bathtub wall. Why is it so hard for everyone?

[Anonymous]

This is not true for ages 3-5. Parallel play is phasing out. 5 yr olds ShoUld have a few friends as well as a couple kids they play nicely with.

[Anonymous]

So parents who can’t afford preschool / daycare are now child abusers? Gotta love the push for increased criminalization of poverty. You a Trumpster, Op? That would explain it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So parents who can’t afford preschool / daycare are now child abusers? Gotta love the push for increased criminalization of poverty. You a Trumpster, Op? That would explain it.

Everyone can take their kids to the park.

[Anonymous]

I agree with OP.....sort of. For most of human history, we lived in close-knit tribes where children played with multiple other children (and adults) all day, every day. The nuclear family is a very recent - and a Western - concept, designed to increase productivity from workers. Before the agricultural and industrial revolutions, hunter gatherers “worked” (search for food) only 3-4 hours a day. The rest of the time was engaged in rest, hobbies, and social interactions. Bottom line is we’re primates, and most primates live in larger social groups.

Multiple studies have shown that social interaction is the #1 predictor of health and happiness. My grandmother grew up in the isolated, “little house on the prairie” nuclear family. She had extreme anxiety and depression her entire life. Sure, she survived, but we owe our children so much more than just survival.

The problem is that parents already have so many burdens on them because we live in a system designed to extract all of our energy for profit. Between work, the second shift at home, and our other obligations, there’s not energy or time left for socializing.

Telling parents they need to fit in socialization (beyond an hour at the park- it’s not enough) in their already packed schedules doesn’t work. There needs to be childcare and opportunities for children available at no cost, plus the entire work system needs to be overhauled to not be exploitative and to allow for work-life balance. (Which is why it boggles my mind that the most pro-life people I know are also the ones who are most against providing support for families - but that’s another discussion).

We also need to give grace to those who fall short, because we are all operating in a broken, unjust system. Bickering over who’s the better parent doesn’t help us reach our goal of providing a better life for our children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do realize that for much of history before the industrial revolution families were often isolated on farms far away from other families? Those kids survived.

People socialized on Sundays at church and on other occasions. People lived in extended family households. Often, siblings or cousins had adjoining farms. Kids had many opportunities to play with children outside of the nuclear family. Also, people often had 4 or more children.

Not always. My mil was an only child on a large farm. She didn’t ever have play dates etc. she survived and is quite well adjusted and capable. And leas whiny than is typical in generations that followed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with OP.....sort of. For most of human history, we lived in close-knit tribes where children played with multiple other children (and adults) all day, every day. The nuclear family is a very recent - and a Western - concept, designed to increase productivity from workers. Before the agricultural and industrial revolutions, hunter gatherers “worked” (search for food) only 3-4 hours a day. The rest of the time was engaged in rest, hobbies, and social interactions. Bottom line is we’re primates, and most primates live in larger social groups.

Multiple studies have shown that social interaction is the #1 predictor of health and happiness. My grandmother grew up in the isolated, “little house on the prairie” nuclear family. She had extreme anxiety and depression her entire life. Sure, she survived, but we owe our children so much more than just survival.

The problem is that parents already have so many burdens on them because we live in a system designed to extract all of our energy for profit. Between work, the second shift at home, and our other obligations, there’s not energy or time left for socializing.

Telling parents they need to fit in socialization (beyond an hour at the park- it’s not enough) in their already packed schedules doesn’t work. There needs to be childcare and opportunities for children available at no cost, plus the entire work system needs to be overhauled to not be exploitative and to allow for work-life balance. (Which is why it boggles my mind that the most pro-life people I know are also the ones who are most against providing support for families - but that’s another discussion).

We also need to give grace to those who fall short, because we are all operating in a broken, unjust system. Bickering over who’s the better parent doesn’t help us reach our goal of providing a better life for our children.

You can come up with any story to justify your position. Usually those saying socializing want to dump their kids on someone else. Depression can be genetic so you can be in the best environment and still have it.

Right now, to get COVID under control we all need to make sacrifices. Its really sad people cannot temporarily make sacrifices for the greater good.

There is free child care or low cost for those who are income eligible. You are not entitled to free child care. You sound really entitled.

[Anonymous]

I grew up comfortably middle class and did not know a single child who was sent to daycare or preschool. That was mom's job -- or auntie's, or cousin's, etc if mom worked. It was called nursery school and it was for the wealthy. The moms stayed home but still sent their children away for half the day. My mother alwys said that's for women who don't really like their children or who aren't really interested in being a mom. I tend to agree.

Why can't you teach your own children to read? Do it after work!