Admissions to change at Thomas Jefferson High, and others

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Underrepresented minorities don’t apply very much. White applicants are declining. Vague reasons of “culture.” It’s clearly racism towards Asian Americans.

Declining interest in a school where those aren’t Asian are turned away far more often and where you may be mistreated even if you do get in isn’t racist. If there is any racism on display, it comes from those who casually assert URMs don’t belong there.

Yep, it's not vague reasons of culture. It's the experiences of Black and Hispanic students who do attend TJ and report that they only got in for reasons of affirmative action, and that they are occupying seats that should have belonged to their friends. And it's not only Asian students who engage in this casual racism. White students do it too.

I will say, there are plenty of white families who don't apply because the school is too Asian, and that's ugly. Others couch it in terms of not wanting to engage with the insanely competitive atmosphere.

So interesting that there aren’t URM students but there are so many tales of mistreatment. Which one is it? My kids have not heard this talk there at all. Neither do they find it “insanely competitive.” The kids work together so much and really collaborate. They are very motivated learners but not competitive with others.

There are absolutely these students at the school. Between Black and Hispanic, it's usually about 15 in each class of 480. Don't discount their experiences. And don't expect your kids to report to you everything that goes on there. They want to please you. Just make sure that you're letting them know that such behavior is unacceptable, if you indeed believe it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Underrepresented minorities don’t apply very much. White applicants are declining. Vague reasons of “culture.” It’s clearly racism towards Asian Americans.

Declining interest in a school where those aren’t Asian are turned away far more often and where you may be mistreated even if you do get in isn’t racist. If there is any racism on display, it comes from those who casually assert URMs don’t belong there.

Yep, it's not vague reasons of culture. It's the experiences of Black and Hispanic students who do attend TJ and report that they only got in for reasons of affirmative action, and that they are occupying seats that should have belonged to their friends. And it's not only Asian students who engage in this casual racism. White students do it too.

I will say, there are plenty of white families who don't apply because the school is too Asian, and that's ugly. Others couch it in terms of not wanting to engage with the insanely competitive atmosphere.

So interesting that there aren’t URM students but there are so many tales of mistreatment. Which one is it? My kids have not heard this talk there at all. Neither do they find it “insanely competitive.” The kids work together so much and really collaborate. They are very motivated learners but not competitive with others.

Keep sticking your head in the sand. It’s so very credible.

[Anonymous]

So your best argument for why the system works is to compare the method of selection for an extracurricular activity with specialized four year high school education?

OK then.

[Anonymous]

Do urm even want to attend TJ? I know I didn't because my interests was in the arts. And I knew a lot of super smart minorities and they had no interest in TJ either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So your best argument for why the system works is to compare the method of selection for an extracurricular activity with specialized four year high school education?

OK then.

Not my argument, and not the best argument, but a surprisingly effective refutation of a really tired trope. No, we shouldn't be using the same standards, or similar standards, to select students for a specialized HS experience in the same way that we select a football team. But an emphasis on potential over preparation might lead to a stronger school environment.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Shouldn't admission be based on merit?

Does merit include kids whose parents start reading to them, exposing them to science, and exposing them to math when they are infants?

Research shows that kids whose parents read to them from when they are babies are far better prepared for school then kids who do not. My kid had access to lots of books. We read to him every day, many times throughout the day. He had access to blocks, magnatiles, legos, tinker toys, and other engineering/construction type toys. We took him to museums and watched science based tv shows with him. We could do that because we could afford those objects, knew about the library, and had the time to take him places and do things with him. A family who makes less money then we do and does not have the same background cannot provide the same opportunities.

Kids from that family are not less intelligent then my son, they have had fewer opportunities to develop their intelligence. Their parents don't have the money or time or knowledge or combination of all three. So those kids are far more likely to be excluded from AAP and TJ simply because their parents lack the resources to provide for them what I could provide for my son.

Does merit include tutoring that starts in Kindergarten or even earlier? That tutoring gives kids an advantage in school and testing, which is more likely to lead to AAP and TJ.

We have not done any extra tutoring for our son, he is 8. We encourage him in his interests, we play math games and encourage him at home. He was accepted into AAP.He had a huge advantage over kids whose parents couldn't/didn't/don't know how to give their kids the same opportunities that we gave our son. How many kids entering AAP have had the benefits my son had and then add tutoring on top of it. Tutoring starts in pre-school for some families. There are test centers to prep kids for the NNAT, CogAT, and TJ exams. Is that merit?

You call it merit, others call it prepping and advantages that not every family knows about or can afford.

I don't call it prepping. I call it good parenting. Do you think setting a schedule and making sure your kids do their homework and go to bed on time prepping? There are plenty of parents who don't do this, buy their kids phones in elementary and let them have unlimited access. You have to decide what's important in your house.

There is a huge difference with making sure your child does their homework, eats well, and goes to bed on time and sending your kid for advanced tutoring in Math so that they can take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade. I would argue the same about travel sports as well. Part of the reason these kids are bored in school is because their parents started sending them to tutoring when they were 4 or 5. I have no doubt that these kids would be doing just fine in math without that tutoring. And I suspect they would do just fine in life if they took Algebra in 8th Grade. You can encourage a kids interest without attempting to promote them ahead of their classmates.

And while I fully believe that their are kids who love math, DS is one of them, I don't really buy that AoPS is in business because there are soooo many kids who really want to do extra math during the week or on the weekends. And I sure as heck know that the number of NNAT, CogAT, and TJ Prep centers are not there because kindergarteners and first graders are asking their parents to study for a test. I suspect that the same is true for the kids in the TJ programs. So much of these programs are driven by parents who seem to think that it is important that their kids do their homework, eat well, go to bed on time, and attending extra tutoring to get ahead in subject materials.

Racist and envious

That PP doesn't seem to understand that in some cultures, education and high stakes exams are viewed as a way to a prosperous future and parents view it as their duty to provide every possible advantage to their kids. Likewise kids are taught that they owe it to their family to succeed so that they can in turn support their parents in old age.

good for them, there is no reason for a public school system to cater to that expectation

Agree. And high school sports teams should also be based on lottery.

The whole notion of arbitrary tryouts that skew towards athletes that have been prepped is unjust and racist.

All kids deserve the chance to play on the teams and with equal playing time. The diversity of the team will only make the team better.

That is how education works, but it is not how sports work. There is tons of research on the value of educational diversity. There is no research on the value of diversity in athletic team membership. Coaching, perhaps.

This is one of the most tired tropes out there and honestly needs to retire.

It's not a tired trope. It is a double standard.

There is value in diversity in all areas of life, so how can you now say that without some '"research" studies, that value of diversity in athletic teams is not there.

Of course it's there, just like it is in the classroom, in the workplace, in neighborhoods, in counties. The sports teams need to reflect the diversity of the community that supports them around it.

And in school, you can say with straight face that diversity in the classroom is important and valuable but not just outside the classroom windows that look out onto the sports fields?

The job of a school is to educate its students. The job of a sports team is to compete against other schools and try to win contests while representing the school well - and perhaps on some level, to give kids an opportunity to be recruited to play those sports at another school. If you see education as a competitive sport in that same light, that's a MAJOR worldview problem.

It's not a double standard - it's comparing two things that are not comparable.

No, the job of tax payer funded school sports teams is to provide athletics opportunities to it's student body. It is not a sports academy for only the prepped few.

TJ is as competive, application based school. The ONLY school in the county that is like that.

All high schools have some teams that require tryouts that select only the best that make the cut. Those kids have all been prepped in that sport before the tryouts. That is unfair to the kids that did not have the advantage of sports prepping.

The school should not have sports if their only purpose is to only compete and not for the whole body, mind benefit of all of it's students. As you stated, the school is to educate students. Get rid of sports if they serve no purpose in education.

If you believe that all students who make the cut in a sport have prepped in that sport before tryouts, you do not understand how high school sports work. And that's fine, most people don't.

Students who are lacking in prepared skill will sometimes be selected for superior work ethic, or for superior raw athleticism, or for superior size, or superior leadership abilities. They are selected frequently for identified potential, rather than short-term demonstrations of skill.

Schools offer sports as a part of the educational process that students can elect to try out for if they want. Participating in interscholastic sports offers valuable lessons in terms of teamwork, leadership, dedication to a cause greater than oneself, and handling disappointment or failure. I think the argument that these lessons are limited to the students who make the team is a legitimate argument, but for budgetary reasons schools can only support so many students participating in each sport.

Here's where the metaphor succeeds - if a high school sports team every year took only the best x number of players for that team, the players with the most polished skills at that moment, the team might not have enough players to fill each position. They might be missing out on a player who is genuinely really interested in the sport and has a carrying skill (great speed) that might offer them the potential to be a great contributor down the road, even though their skill is not the best right now. But if you put that player in an environment - maybe for the first time ever - where their potential is allowed to nurture and grow, they may very well be able to surpass the ceiling of that player who was more skilled at tryouts but had limited growth potential.

If you're going to use a sports metaphor, you probably should understand sports first.

I have kids in sports that have been in sports since they were young kids, I know how sports work. I also know there is a lot of nepotism in sports as well as a lot of connections regarding who you know. And yes, this is in public, taxpayer funded high schools. And if you think any kid can walk onto a sports tryouts field and make the cut with out preparation in advance you are a fool. (I'm talking a player on the team, not the kid on the sidelines catching out of bounds balls)

You are trying to make this out as not the same thing, but it is. The rare cases where kids with some raw skill but no prep make a team, they are sidelined during games and not given equal playing time. They will be encouraged to keep practicing and perhaps hire a coach on the side to ramp up their skill faster so they can get some game time.

Those same kids in the classrooms can see the kids on the field. How can diversity of the classroom not be reflected with their peers on the field.

Equity and diversity in public schools includes on the public school fields. Lottery/slots reserved for classrooms must include lottery/slots reserved for on the fields too.

[Anonymous]

I'm not reading 10 page, sorry if these links are reposts

Basing admissions on some racial or SES quota is ridiculous, listening to dumb so called woke mostly white liberals is stupid

https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-cascading-complexity-of-diversity

https://asrainvestigates.substack.com/p/the-woke-armys-race-war-on-americas

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Underrepresented minorities don’t apply very much. White applicants are declining. Vague reasons of “culture.” It’s clearly racism towards Asian Americans.

Declining interest in a school where those aren’t Asian are turned away far more often and where you may be mistreated even if you do get in isn’t racist. If there is any racism on display, it comes from those who casually assert URMs don’t belong there.

Yep, it's not vague reasons of culture. It's the experiences of Black and Hispanic students who do attend TJ and report that they only got in for reasons of affirmative action, and that they are occupying seats that should have belonged to their friends. And it's not only Asian students who engage in this casual racism. White students do it too.

I will say, there are plenty of white families who don't apply because the school is too Asian, and that's ugly. Others couch it in terms of not wanting to engage with the insanely competitive atmosphere.

So interesting that there aren’t URM students but there are so many tales of mistreatment. Which one is it? My kids have not heard this talk there at all. Neither do they find it “insanely competitive.” The kids work together so much and really collaborate. They are very motivated learners but not competitive with others.

There are absolutely these students at the school. Between Black and Hispanic, it's usually about 15 in each class of 480. Don't discount their experiences. And don't expect your kids to report to you everything that goes on there. They want to please you. Just make sure that you're letting them know that such behavior is unacceptable, if you indeed believe it is.

These numbers are pathetic. If the county cannot enroll more than this the school should be closed down. I looked at the website. The website really fakes the
race of the students. You have to look hard to find an Asian face on the website.

[Anonymous]

Once again, calling out the crowd that seems fine with the gross under-representation of Black and Hispanic/FARMS kids in AAP overall, and put all the focus on TJ.

If TJ admissions is racist, so is AAP (test scores, parent appeals, GBRS, outside private testing, parent-requested principal placement in Level IV) - why are you not suggesting that AAP be "closed" "thrown out" or an "embarrassment to FCPS." Sure sounds like you are interested in protecting the institution that your child benefits from but not the one they can't get into...

Note that the NAACP meeting with Dr. Braband was not all about TJ - it was about school discipline, PARENT APPEALS for AAP, test scores, etc. You folks are the ones focused only on one symptom of the systemic racism in FCPS - TJ - but not the people in charge, luckily.

[Anonymous]

The school appears to be a school for wealthy Asian families that have government type positions in the DC area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Once again, calling out the crowd that seems fine with the gross under-representation of Black and Hispanic/FARMS kids in AAP overall, and put all the focus on TJ.

If TJ admissions is racist, so is AAP (test scores, parent appeals, GBRS, outside private testing, parent-requested principal placement in Level IV) - why are you not suggesting that AAP be "closed" "thrown out" or an "embarrassment to FCPS." Sure sounds like you are interested in protecting the institution that your child benefits from but not the one they can't get into...

Note that the NAACP meeting with Dr. Braband was not all about TJ - it was about school discipline, PARENT APPEALS for AAP, test scores, etc. You folks are the ones focused only on one symptom of the systemic racism in FCPS - TJ - but not the people in charge, luckily.

look it's parenting. It is not the job of the government to get more black and hispanic farms families to read to their children more and engage with them more from 0-3

Heck it starts even before that with nutrition and care during pregnancy

Folks this is why you will never close the achievement gap. Move on die on another hill

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Once again, calling out the crowd that seems fine with the gross under-representation of Black and Hispanic/FARMS kids in AAP overall, and put all the focus on TJ.

If TJ admissions is racist, so is AAP (test scores, parent appeals, GBRS, outside private testing, parent-requested principal placement in Level IV) - why are you not suggesting that AAP be "closed" "thrown out" or an "embarrassment to FCPS." Sure sounds like you are interested in protecting the institution that your child benefits from but not the one they can't get into...

Note that the NAACP meeting with Dr. Braband was not all about TJ - it was about school discipline, PARENT APPEALS for AAP, test scores, etc. You folks are the ones focused only on one symptom of the systemic racism in FCPS - TJ - but not the people in charge, luckily.

Yes, I’ve been saying AAP should be shut down for years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Once again, calling out the crowd that seems fine with the gross under-representation of Black and Hispanic/FARMS kids in AAP overall, and put all the focus on TJ.

If TJ admissions is racist, so is AAP (test scores, parent appeals, GBRS, outside private testing, parent-requested principal placement in Level IV) - why are you not suggesting that AAP be "closed" "thrown out" or an "embarrassment to FCPS." Sure sounds like you are interested in protecting the institution that your child benefits from but not the one they can't get into...

Note that the NAACP meeting with Dr. Braband was not all about TJ - it was about school discipline, PARENT APPEALS for AAP, test scores, etc. You folks are the ones focused only on one symptom of the systemic racism in FCPS - TJ - but not the people in charge, luckily.

look it's parenting. It is not the job of the government to get more black and hispanic farms families to read to their children more and engage with them more from 0-3

Heck it starts even before that with nutrition and care during pregnancy

Folks this is why you will never close the achievement gap. Move on die on another hill

And this is why we will continue to have protests. Nasty racists who just don’t get it. Go back to your hole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Once again, calling out the crowd that seems fine with the gross under-representation of Black and Hispanic/FARMS kids in AAP overall, and put all the focus on TJ.

If TJ admissions is racist, so is AAP (test scores, parent appeals, GBRS, outside private testing, parent-requested principal placement in Level IV) - why are you not suggesting that AAP be "closed" "thrown out" or an "embarrassment to FCPS." Sure sounds like you are interested in protecting the institution that your child benefits from but not the one they can't get into...

Note that the NAACP meeting with Dr. Braband was not all about TJ - it was about school discipline, PARENT APPEALS for AAP, test scores, etc. You folks are the ones focused only on one symptom of the systemic racism in FCPS - TJ - but not the people in charge, luckily.

most people in this thread attacking TJ seem to agree. TJ is just AAP distilled

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Once again, calling out the crowd that seems fine with the gross under-representation of Black and Hispanic/FARMS kids in AAP overall, and put all the focus on TJ.

If TJ admissions is racist, so is AAP (test scores, parent appeals, GBRS, outside private testing, parent-requested principal placement in Level IV) - why are you not suggesting that AAP be "closed" "thrown out" or an "embarrassment to FCPS." Sure sounds like you are interested in protecting the institution that your child benefits from but not the one they can't get into...

Note that the NAACP meeting with Dr. Braband was not all about TJ - it was about school discipline, PARENT APPEALS for AAP, test scores, etc. You folks are the ones focused only on one symptom of the systemic racism in FCPS - TJ - but not the people in charge, luckily.

look it's parenting. It is not the job of the government to get more black and hispanic farms families to read to their children more and engage with them more from 0-3

Heck it starts even before that with nutrition and care during pregnancy

Folks this is why you will never close the achievement gap. Move on die on another hill

And this is why we will continue to have protests. Nasty racists who just don’t get it. Go back to your hole.

facts aren't racist feel free to keep on protesting but ignoring reality is just dumb.