Too much Christmas Education in my Public School

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm very sympathetic to OP's concerns about a Christmas full court press, but want to push back specifically on the idea that talking about the Nativity in Spanish class is problematic.

In fact, I'm wondering if OP's child is in a Spanish immersion school, which would change my impression of the post pretty dramatically.

Even if we limit the discussion to Spanish class, though, I would honestly expect a language class to include a discussion of culture and holidays in the places where that language is spoken. For the case of the vast majority of Spanish-speaking places, no discussion of "December holidays" would be complete without a discussion of how people in those countries celebrate.

Ok, how about a lesson about how crypto-Jews celebrated? How the Spanish traditions of Christmas cookies made of of lard, which was instituted by the Inquisition to suss out Jews and Muslims?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps we should not make a mountain out of a molehill.
Kids do crafts at school in Kindergarten.
Elves predate Santa and are found in several old folklore tales made for children
Give it up and find something else to fight about

Right. And as soon as your child is doing an Eid or Janmastami coloring project you’ll be standing in a crowd of parents holding pitch forks and fire at the next school board meeting.
Your Christian privilege is showing!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps we should not make a mountain out of a molehill.
Kids do crafts at school in Kindergarten.
Elves predate Santa and are found in several old folklore tales made for children
Give it up and find something else to fight about

Right. And as soon as your child is doing an Eid or Janmastami coloring project you’ll be standing in a crowd of parents holding pitch forks and fire at the next school board meeting.
Your Christian privilege is showing!

It's Anglo/Euro privilege. Get it right.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

What does secular Santa and his secular elf’s do?

Santa and his elves make toys in Santa's workshop.

This really isn't complicated.

The Christian tradition of Christmas is related to the secular tradition of Christmas, but they are not the same thing. Those of us who celebrate secular Christmas don't think of Santa as a Saint or as representative of a Saint, we do have Santa and elves which many religious people who celebrate religious Christmas do not.

But why is Santa and his elf’s making toys in the first place? Why are the toys/presents needed?

For Christmas. In case you're not aware, Santa isn't in the Christian Bible, nor are elves. And the tradition of the Christmas tree comes from pagan celebrations, and was brought indoors in a German tradition. Many people aren't even aware that Santa Claus is a corruption of St. Nicholas and do not venerate him as a Saint, but as a magical creature like a leprechaun. Just as people celebrate St. Patricks Day as a secular celebration, and not a religious veneration of another Saint.

Santa, elves, etc, are all undeniably associated with Christmas, which is a religious holiday (as well as being a secular holiday). There's no way to divorce them. You may personally practice secular Christmas, but the symbols are also religious, and you can't remove that linkage by fiat.

Tell me where I'm getting it wrong.

Christmas is a religious celebration.
Christmas is a secular celebration.
I think we both agree with those statements.
Christmas, both secular and religious, is a cultural tradition that a majority culture in the US celebrates. I think we're still on the same page here.
Christmas, secular and religious, is a cultural tradition that several minority cultures in the US don't celebrate. I think we're still on the same page.
Because the US has many cultures, one culture's traditions shouldn't dominate and that requires special care when dealing with the cultural traditions of the majority because it can appear to be everywhere. Still on the same page?
Because of religious sensitivity and our Constitutional requirement to not have state-sponsored religions, we need to be particularly careful if a religious tradition appears to be supported by our state institutions. So we will want to err on the side of a christmas tree on the statehouse lawn, and not a nativity. And we would want to include symbols from other traditions as well. Still on the same page?

Santa in the US culture, religious and secular, is not a religious symbol except for perhaps a tiny minority who views him as representative of St. Nicholas.
Elves in the US culture, religious and secular, are not a religious symbol.
The nativity, in the US culture, religious and secular, is a religious symbol.
I believe you disagree with those statements, and I'd really love for you to explain how elves are a Christian religious symbol.

Look, I obviously know that Santa and Elves are not in the bible. I also know that they are intertwined with Christmas, which in turn is a religious holiday. There's a connection. From the perspective of a Jewish child, constant elves, Santa, and trees at school are absolutely exclusionary on the basis of her religion.

Are you even Jewish?

All of the Jewish people I know celebrate Christmas, some in a very grand way, and several celebrate it in a bigger way and with more consistency than Hanukkah. One has so much tradition in celebrating a secualr Christmas, that when one of their daughters married a practicing Christian boy from a practicing Christmas family, the woman and her family put pressure on him to do Christmas Eve/Day with their Jewish family instead of his Christian family because of their secular American traditions.

So there are some Jewish people who really enjoy the American secular Christmas traditions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

What does secular Santa and his secular elf’s do?

Santa and his elves make toys in Santa's workshop.

This really isn't complicated.

The Christian tradition of Christmas is related to the secular tradition of Christmas, but they are not the same thing. Those of us who celebrate secular Christmas don't think of Santa as a Saint or as representative of a Saint, we do have Santa and elves which many religious people who celebrate religious Christmas do not.

But why is Santa and his elf’s making toys in the first place? Why are the toys/presents needed?

For Christmas. In case you're not aware, Santa isn't in the Christian Bible, nor are elves. And the tradition of the Christmas tree comes from pagan celebrations, and was brought indoors in a German tradition. Many people aren't even aware that Santa Claus is a corruption of St. Nicholas and do not venerate him as a Saint, but as a magical creature like a leprechaun. Just as people celebrate St. Patricks Day as a secular celebration, and not a religious veneration of another Saint.

Santa, elves, etc, are all undeniably associated with Christmas, which is a religious holiday (as well as being a secular holiday). There's no way to divorce them. You may personally practice secular Christmas, but the symbols are also religious, and you can't remove that linkage by fiat.

Tell me where I'm getting it wrong.

Christmas is a religious celebration.
Christmas is a secular celebration.
I think we both agree with those statements.
Christmas, both secular and religious, is a cultural tradition that a majority culture in the US celebrates. I think we're still on the same page here.
Christmas, secular and religious, is a cultural tradition that several minority cultures in the US don't celebrate. I think we're still on the same page.
Because the US has many cultures, one culture's traditions shouldn't dominate and that requires special care when dealing with the cultural traditions of the majority because it can appear to be everywhere. Still on the same page?
Because of religious sensitivity and our Constitutional requirement to not have state-sponsored religions, we need to be particularly careful if a religious tradition appears to be supported by our state institutions. So we will want to err on the side of a christmas tree on the statehouse lawn, and not a nativity. And we would want to include symbols from other traditions as well. Still on the same page?

Santa in the US culture, religious and secular, is not a religious symbol except for perhaps a tiny minority who views him as representative of St. Nicholas.
Elves in the US culture, religious and secular, are not a religious symbol.
The nativity, in the US culture, religious and secular, is a religious symbol.
I believe you disagree with those statements, and I'd really love for you to explain how elves are a Christian religious symbol.

Look, I obviously know that Santa and Elves are not in the bible. I also know that they are intertwined with Christmas, which in turn is a religious holiday. There's a connection. From the perspective of a Jewish child, constant elves, Santa, and trees at school are absolutely exclusionary on the basis of her religion.

Are you even Jewish?

All of the Jewish people I know celebrate Christmas, some in a very grand way, and several celebrate it in a bigger way and with more consistency than Hanukkah. One has so much tradition in celebrating a secualr Christmas, that when one of their daughters married a practicing Christian boy from a practicing Christmas family, the woman and her family put pressure on him to do Christmas Eve/Day with their Jewish family instead of his Christian family because of their secular American traditions.

So there are some Jewish people who really enjoy the American secular Christmas traditions

Interfaith, so I have a pretty even perspective on this. Of course many Jews enjoy some Christmas traditions. That's totally irrelevant to the broader point, which is that many Jews (including those who might have a Christmas tree) may feel like the school is pushing a particular religious holiday.

[Anonymous]

Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm very sympathetic to OP's concerns about a Christmas full court press, but want to push back specifically on the idea that talking about the Nativity in Spanish class is problematic.

In fact, I'm wondering if OP's child is in a Spanish immersion school, which would change my impression of the post pretty dramatically.

Even if we limit the discussion to Spanish class, though, I would honestly expect a language class to include a discussion of culture and holidays in the places where that language is spoken. For the case of the vast majority of Spanish-speaking places, no discussion of "December holidays" would be complete without a discussion of how people in those countries celebrate.

I agree with you to a point. Yes, it reasonable to discuss the culture of the places where the language is spoken and religion is an important part of many cultures. But there is a fine line between learning about religious aspects of the culture and promoting the religion. I am struggling to see how discussions of the Navity are necessary or proper to understand the culture in Spanish speaking countries.

The rules do not change simply because one is at an immersion school where most native speakers of the language practice a particular religion. Sela (Hebrew immersion) can discuss various aspects of Israeli culture, of which Judaism is a part, but they need to be very careful about not veering into promoting Judaism, and they shouldn't have an undue focus on even arguably secular aspects of Jewish holidays.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday.

It is really scary to me how many people seem to believe this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday.

No, it's not. The Christian religious holiday is celebrated using the supposedly "secular" elements. Unless there's some way you can inform kids: we're making Christmas tree ornaments, but this has nothing to do with Christ's birth AT ALL! there's no way to distinguish the impact in schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday.

It is really scary to me how many people seem to believe this.

It is really scary how many people on dcum do not know that Christmas is a secular holiday and one of the majors holidays in the US, in addition to being a Christian holiday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday.

No, it's not. The Christian religious holiday is celebrated using the supposedly "secular" elements. Unless there's some way you can inform kids: we're making Christmas tree ornaments, but this has nothing to do with Christ's birth AT ALL! there's no way to distinguish the impact in schools.

Your education has failed you if you think that red nosed reindeers and magical elves are in any way Christian

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The discussions in Spanish class about Jesus, the wise men and the nativity scene need to be brought to the principal's attention. I'd also bring up the weekslong focus on Christmas related activities. My kid's school has winter related activities (a winter party, making snowflakes, snowmen, gingerbread people/houses). You need to discuss it with the principle because talking to this year's teacher does nothing about your concerns for next year. As to the poster who suggested Jewish education classes, I agree. We all need to send our kids to religious education outside of school, and keep religion (including things about the baby Jesus) out of public schools.

Learning about holiday traditions in FL and social studies classes is pretty standard. My kids both studied the Hajj in Social Studies class. The older one learned about several religious traditions in French class, the younger in Italian.

[Anonymous]

Ok. If a Christmas tree, Santa, and the elf’s are all secular, then why do the Chanukah presents not get put around the tree? Why does Santa not bring Hanukkah presents? Why isn’t there wrapping paper showing Santa lighting the menorah? I’m jewish so I know my holiday but I also don’t see Santa associated with Kwanza.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday.

It is really scary to me how many people seem to believe this.

It is really scary how many people on dcum do not know that Christmas is a secular holiday and one of the majors holidays in the US, in addition to being a Christian holiday.

It is undoubtedly one of the major holidays in the US. That's because most people are Christian, not because it is secular.

You or someone else argued that because Christmas is a federal holiday it must be secular. That's ridiculous. It is a federal holiday because most people are Christian and celebrate Christmas.

School districts around here close for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. That doesn't make them secular holidays. Rather, it is merely a recognition that many people would be out that day because they celebrate that religious holiday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christmas is a cultural American holiday separate from being a Christian religious holiday.

It is really scary to me how many people seem to believe this.

Why is that scary? Many of the elements of the celebration of “Christmas” have been in around since before Christianity existed. The secular winter holiday celebration was incorporated into the celebration of the birth of Jesus, but did not have anything to do with Christianity. Lots of non Christians celebrate a secular Christmas, and have lots of fun doing so.

Christmas is only a religious celebration to those who are religious.