Discussion over whether to expand Tyler dual-lang program turns to gentrification debate

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:One challenge with immersion is that it's hard for kids to join in when they move in later grades, and poorer kids in DC tend to move more. What do you do when a 4th grader moves IB for a dual-language school or when the charter they've been in counsels them out mid-year?

I think Tyler should go dual-language and Brent should be monolingual (or vice versa), and students in both boundaries should be able to rank their preferences for each. You'd be guaranteed a seat in one of them and there'd be sibling preference to keep families together. Then there would be lots more dual language slots and everyone would still have a monolingual alternative if they wanted it, and both schools would have more racial and economic diversity.

Hate this idea. YOu don't seem to know that Brent is bursting at the seams. Seen the new trailers on the small playground?

No room at Brent for most IB parent who want PreS3 and PreK4 let alone IB Tyler families who'd reject Spanish!

Then make Brent dual language and Tyler monolingual. It's the same number of IB kids in the combined boundary either way.

And where will you put the OOB Spanish-dominant students? that would have to go at Brent? The Brent families would all have to have IB rights to their neighborhood school. That's why these programs all begin in under=enrolled buildings.

The Tyler and Brent boundaries would have two IB schools: Brent and Tyler. You'd have a right to attend one of those schools, and a right to express a preference as to which one you got, but you could get either of them. If the combined boundary for the two schools can't handle the number of kids then it's time to shift the boundary, sending more kids to the Cluster or Payne.

I don't think DCPS is going to implement a choice-set in just two elementary schools. Try again.

I agree. Each dual-language DCPS that doesn't have a monolingual track should have a choice-set, ideally with a desirable monolingual school. If Tyler goes 100% dual-language, Brent should be Tyler's.

Dual language schools don't make sense as neighborhood schools unless the neighborhood has many native speakers in the second language. It would make more sense to make Tyler dual language city-wide and absorb the Tyler boundaries into the surrounding schools as space permits.

So by this logic, Oyster, Tyler, Houston should not have dual language programs, or should be city-wide.

Yes. Truthfully, I don't know much about the boundaries of Oyster or Houston, but I think in-bound families should have a neighborhood school without the dual-language mandate. Ideally, DCPS would have a small number of city-wide dual language schools available throughout the city in line with demand for those programs. The existing schools seem to have arisen out of involved parents who helped make those programs happen, but I sometimes wonder if the full community is always on board.

I agree with this. Or have 1/2 the neighborhood school offer Spanish and the other 1/2 offer English. Not everyone wants dual language for their child (I don't), and if that is your neighborhood school, you are forced to accept it unless you can lottery out.

[Anonymous]

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So by this logic, Oyster, Tyler, Houston should not have dual language programs, or should be city-wide.

Yes. Truthfully, I don't know much about the boundaries of Oyster or Houston, but I think in-bound families should have a neighborhood school without the dual-language mandate. Ideally, DCPS would have a small number of city-wide dual language schools available throughout the city in line with demand for those programs. The existing schools seem to have arisen out of involved parents who helped make those programs happen, but I sometimes wonder if the full community is always on board.

I agree with this. Or have 1/2 the neighborhood school offer Spanish and the other 1/2 offer English. Not everyone wants dual language for their child (I don't), and if that is your neighborhood school, you are forced to accept it unless you can lottery out.

Half immersion / half not immersion is precisely the situation at Tyler and what the immersion parents are trying to change, arguing that it holds their program back.

You NOT required to accept immersion if your neighborhood school is 100% immersion. DCPS offers you a guaranteed monolingual alternative (e.g. Oyster's is SWW@FS; Bancroft's is Raymond).

[Anonymous]

"Challenges Faced by Language Immersion

Designing, implementing, and providing ongoing support for language immersion education is no easy task. Pressing challenges include staffing, curriculum development and program articulation. Program administrators struggle to find high-quality, licensed teachers who can demonstrate advanced levels of oral and written proficiency in the chosen language. Once teachers are hired, the search begins for developmentally appropriate curriculum, materials, and resources that meet local district and state standards. Elementary-level challenges are met with additional secondary-level issues such as scheduling and balancing students' educational priorities as the program moves up and through the middle and high school years.

Inadequate teacher preparation for immersion programs remains a challenge in this field. Teachers need specialized professional development support to meet the complex task of concurrently addressing content, language, and literacy development in an integrated, subject-matter-driven language program.[xxx] However, teacher educators and immersion specialists who can provide useful and relevant professional learning experiences for the immersion staff are in short supply. In addition to professional development related to curriculum design and pedagogical techniques, both native and non-native teachers report the need for ongoing support for their own proficiency in the immersion language.[xxxi]

Chinese teachers whose educational experiences took place in more traditional, teacher-centered classrooms are aware of significant cultural differences and participant expectations. For example, US schools place a strong emphasis on social skills and language for communicative purposes. Children expect learner-centered activities with real-life tasks. Chinese teachers often hold a different set of expectations for students and thus, they frequently need support for classroom management strategies and techniques.[xxxii]

Immersion teachers face significant hurdles in the sheer range of learner differences. The impact of students' variations in language proficiency, literacy development, learning support available to the student in the home, achievement abilities, learning styles, and special needs grows exponentially when teaching and learning occurs in two languages.[xxxiii] Educators and parents struggle to identify and implement research-based policies and practices for learners who have language, literacy, and learning difficulties. Many immersion programs lack the necessary resources and bilingual specialists to provide appropriate instructional support, assessment, and interventions.[xxxiv]

Promoting student understanding of more abstract and complex concepts becomes increasingly difficult in the upper elementary grades and beyond. Some upper-elementary immersion teachers, in particular those who teach in partial or 50:50 programs, report difficulties in teaching advanced-level subject matter because students' cognitive development is at a higher level than their proficiency in the second language.[xxxv] This challenge becomes more pronounced in programs where the immersion language is character-based, since literacy development is more time-consuming and demanding.[xxxvi]

One of the greatest challenges for immersion teachers is to keep their students using the second language, especially when working and talking amongst themselves. This challenge is particularly pronounced once the children have moved beyond the primary grades. For instance, studies in both one-way and two-way immersion classes point to fifth-grade students using English more frequently than their non-English language.[xxxvii] Facilitating student use of the immersion language in ways that promote ongoing language development is an uphill battle for teachers.[xxxviii]

Finally, outcome-oriented research reveals that immersion students, especially those who begin the program as native English speakers, don't quite achieve native-like levels of speaking and writing skills. Studies consistently find that English-speaking immersion students' oral language lacks grammatical accuracy, lexical specificity, native pronunciation, and is less complex and sociolinguistically appropriate when compared with the language native speakers of the second language produce.[xxxix] Further, students' use of the immersion language appears to become increasingly anglicized over time,[xl] and can be marked by a more formal academic discourse style.[xli] Even in high-performing immersion programs, advancing students' second language proficiency beyond the intermediate levels remains a much sought after end goal."

http://carla.umn.edu/immersion/documents/ImmersionResearch_TaraFortune.html

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:One challenge with immersion is that it's hard for kids to join in when they move in later grades, and poorer kids in DC tend to move more. What do you do when a 4th grader moves IB for a dual-language school or when the charter they've been in counsels them out mid-year?

I think Tyler should go dual-language and Brent should be monolingual (or vice versa), and students in both boundaries should be able to rank their preferences for each. You'd be guaranteed a seat in one of them and there'd be sibling preference to keep families together. Then there would be lots more dual language slots and everyone would still have a monolingual alternative if they wanted it, and both schools would have more racial and economic diversity.

Hate this idea. YOu don't seem to know that Brent is bursting at the seams. Seen the new trailers on the small playground?

No room at Brent for most IB parent who want PreS3 and PreK4 let alone IB Tyler families who'd reject Spanish!

Then make Brent dual language and Tyler monolingual. It's the same number of IB kids in the combined boundary either way.

And where will you put the OOB Spanish-dominant students? that would have to go at Brent? The Brent families would all have to have IB rights to their neighborhood school. That's why these programs all begin in under=enrolled buildings.

The Tyler and Brent boundaries would have two IB schools: Brent and Tyler. You'd have a right to attend one of those schools, and a right to express a preference as to which one you got, but you could get either of them. If the combined boundary for the two schools can't handle the number of kids then it's time to shift the boundary, sending more kids to the Cluster or Payne.

I don't think DCPS is going to implement a choice-set in just two elementary schools. Try again.

I agree. Each dual-language DCPS that doesn't have a monolingual track should have a choice-set, ideally with a desirable monolingual school. If Tyler goes 100% dual-language, Brent should be Tyler's.

Dual language schools don't make sense as neighborhood schools unless the neighborhood has many native speakers in the second language. It would make more sense to make Tyler dual language city-wide and absorb the Tyler boundaries into the surrounding schools as space permits.

So by this logic, Oyster, Tyler, Houston should not have dual language programs, or should be city-wide.

Oyster’s Spanish-dominant lottery is a de facto citywide lottery. Children from Spanish speaking homes come from all over DC, and they are admitted via that lottery—that’s why Oyster is 56% OOB. The English-dominant side is pretty much all IB, and this set-up works very well for Oyster. We don’t need anyone to fix a school that isn’t broken.

It is NOT a city-wide lottery, because the only English-dominant students who can get in must live IB, in one of the most expensive parts of town. This puts a very coveted resource in the hands of white affluent, and Latino students and tends to shut out many (not all) African Americans.

This is exactly what some of the AA families are Tyler don't want to happen to their school.

Reading (comprehension) is fundamental. I said that “Oyster’s SPANISH-dominant lottery is a de facto citywide lottery.” The English-dominant side is really IB only. If your family speaks English, and you can’t afford to live within Oyster’s boundary, you’re basically SOL. You may not like that fact, but where’s your argument with my statement?

[Anonymous]

To be equitable, access to dual language schools should be available to everyone who wants it.

Native speakers will get a boost, but all English-dominant students should have an equal shot.

Dual-language is wildly popular in the city, but has detractors and is hard to make work within a neighborhood school structure. Make all of these opportunities city-wide schools, with entrance via the lottery, the way the immersion charters are.

It's the only fair thing to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

My guess is that the researched immersion programs were "best in class," had been established for a while, and benefited from strong and knowledgeable central administration support. None of that characterizes what would happen if Tyler suddenly went all-immersion. It would be a clusterf*. Let other parents decide if they want to pioneer an immersion program through all-lottery charters. It's unfair to force it on parents who don't want it in their IB schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yep. Mt. P is a good example. Parents who do not want dual-language program at Bancroft (and there are many) have no other option. Thus the reason Eaton became the OOB destination of choice for MtP families who did not want dual language.

This is simplified. Many actually do want dual language, they just want it a school with better test scores and fewer low income kids. If all the MnT P parents could opt into Oyster instead, trust me you would have a lot more interest in dual language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To be equitable, access to dual language schools should be available to everyone who wants it.

Native speakers will get a boost, but all English-dominant students should have an equal shot.

Dual-language is wildly popular in the city, but has detractors and is hard to make work within a neighborhood school structure. Make all of these opportunities city-wide schools, with entrance via the lottery, the way the immersion charters are.

It's the only fair thing to do.

You can move IB for a dual language school; case closed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

Oyster-Adams is in Upper NW.

Among privates, Washington International School is a very well-regarded immersion school (also happens to be an IB school). The challenge private schools have is attracting native speakers who can afford tuition. WIS has many families who are posted in the DC area and live in other countries. They offer both French and Spanish immersion tracks for elementary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

Yes. My kid attends one (after several years in DCPS). Some of those in the area include WIS (Spanish & French), the Rochambeau (French), and the German school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be equitable, access to dual language schools should be available to everyone who wants it.

Native speakers will get a boost, but all English-dominant students should have an equal shot.

Dual-language is wildly popular in the city, but has detractors and is hard to make work within a neighborhood school structure. Make all of these opportunities city-wide schools, with entrance via the lottery, the way the immersion charters are.

It's the only fair thing to do.

You can move IB for a dual language school; case closed.

That is not a real solution and you know it when 80% of DC's public school population is economically disadvantaged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

Oyster-Adams is in Upper NW.

Among privates, Washington International School is a very well-regarded immersion school (also happens to be an IB school). The challenge private schools have is attracting native speakers who can afford tuition. WIS has many families who are posted in the DC area and live in other countries. They offer both French and Spanish immersion tracks for elementary.

Yeah, I guess. I was thinking of the JKLMs. But good point about privates and native speakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be equitable, access to dual language schools should be available to everyone who wants it.

Native speakers will get a boost, but all English-dominant students should have an equal shot.

Dual-language is wildly popular in the city, but has detractors and is hard to make work within a neighborhood school structure. Make all of these opportunities city-wide schools, with entrance via the lottery, the way the immersion charters are.

It's the only fair thing to do.

You can move IB for a dual language school; case closed.

DCPS has made all the other special program elementary schools city-wide -- Reggio and Montessori.

Why are we still trying to make dual language immersion schools into neighborhood schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be equitable, access to dual language schools should be available to everyone who wants it.

Native speakers will get a boost, but all English-dominant students should have an equal shot.

Dual-language is wildly popular in the city, but has detractors and is hard to make work within a neighborhood school structure. Make all of these opportunities city-wide schools, with entrance via the lottery, the way the immersion charters are.

It's the only fair thing to do.

You can move IB for a dual language school; case closed.

That is not a real solution and you know it when 80% of DC's public school population is economically disadvantaged.

The economically disadvantaged aren't the ones asking for dual-language in their schools.