Discussion over whether to expand Tyler dual-lang program turns to gentrification debate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thai article is very slanted and limited. We are high SES white family at Bruce Monroe. The school is majority Spanish dominant and low income. The school goes out of its way to serve low income Latinos. Are we having some growing pains? Yes but so are all gentrifying schools. the school has more slots for Spanish from kids thannenglish at the ECE leave to try to retain a 50/50 mix. No one is getting g pushed out, if anything high income parents are being kept out. Also, there are many black/ African Latinos who are Spanish dominant. So don’t just judge based on what you see people.

that is very different from the situation at Tyler.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thai article is very slanted and limited. We are high SES white family at Bruce Monroe. The school is majority Spanish dominant and low income. The school goes out of its way to serve low income Latinos. Are we having some growing pains? Yes but so are all gentrifying schools. the school has more slots for Spanish from kids thannenglish at the ECE leave to try to retain a 50/50 mix. No one is getting g pushed out, if anything high income parents are being kept out. Also, there are many black/ African Latinos who are Spanish dominant. So don’t just judge based on what you see people.

The article was about the situation at Tyler and Tyler only, and every parent from with experience has said there is at least some truth to what was reported.

Talk to Perry Stein and get her to write about your gripes at BM.

[Anonymous]

Hey High SES white Parent from BM - are any of the low/lower SES black and brown parents or even the high SES black and brown parents expected to feel sorry for you at this particular moment in our country when everything is being turned back to the 1950s by our federal government? Are you attuned at all to what is happening in this country and the attack on black and brown people? Perhaps you support it - I don’t know. I suspect you can make a lot of choices because of the privilege of your white skin and your money - I know I can. Ultimately, you will make BM whatever you want it to be over time and the numbers of “others” will dwindle. We know this will happen - look at every dual-language/immersion program across the city. We know that families like yours flock to the programs BECAUSE it ultimately erects barriers for people or color, low-income people, kids with special needs, etc. At least my high SES white friends at such schools honest about this. As for me, I am not interested in any of it. My kids are doing great at their Title I non-immersion school. And I am not interested in drama.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hey High SES white Parent from BM - are any of the low/lower SES black and brown parents or even the high SES black and brown parents expected to feel sorry for you at this particular moment in our country when everything is being turned back to the 1950s by our federal government? Are you attuned at all to what is happening in this country and the attack on black and brown people? Perhaps you support it - I don’t know. I suspect you can make a lot of choices because of the privilege of your white skin and your money - I know I can. Ultimately, you will make BM whatever you want it to be over time and the numbers of “others” will dwindle. We know this will happen - look at every dual-language/immersion program across the city. We know that families like yours flock to the programs BECAUSE it ultimately erects barriers for people or color, low-income people, kids with special needs, etc. At least my high SES white friends at such schools honest about this. As for me, I am not interested in any of it. My kids are doing great at their Title I non-immersion school. And I am not interested in drama.

Wow. Way to attack for no reason. I did not “flock” to the school, we didn’t get in anywhere else. Just trying to offer an additional perspective to the article. There are a lot of factors at play at title 1 gentrifying schools. WaPo loves these articles and doesn’t try to show multiple angles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

Nope studies are not done on students who are already struggling, if this was true why do we provide extra support to students born in the US but categorized still as ESL because despite all there years in US education still lagging behind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thai article is very slanted and limited. We are high SES white family at Bruce Monroe. The school is majority Spanish dominant and low income. The school goes out of its way to serve low income Latinos. Are we having some growing pains? Yes but so are all gentrifying schools. the school has more slots for Spanish from kids thannenglish at the ECE leave to try to retain a 50/50 mix. No one is getting g pushed out, if anything high income parents are being kept out. Also, there are many black/ African Latinos who are Spanish dominant. So don’t just judge based on what you see people.

The article was about the situation at Tyler and Tyler only, and every parent from with experience has said there is at least some truth to what was reported.

Talk to Perry Stein and get her to write about your gripes at BM.

How is it going to help the non-Latino students who would much better beneftit from extra support in STEM or based on recent test scores English and Math?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

I’m the PP you responded to - this is very helpful, thank you! So is the issue that bc they aren’t up to grade level in English and math, dual language exacerbates the problem because they can’t concebtrate on the core subjects and parents also can’t help bc they don’t have time or speak the second language?

white high SES mom here. It's not only about the kids not being on grade level - it's that instruction in a different language just adds another complication and pretty big barrier between parents and teachers. My kid entered K not knowing how to read and write, and I'm glad I and his teachers could just focus in that without the added layer. Plus, I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of the immersion model. Our K teacher focused like a laser on Englisj literacy using her decades of experience and a research-based curriculum. She would not have been able to do that in an immersion model -- there would have simply been less time. Also, who are the immersion teachers? An immersion model means that the pool of effective, experienced teachers is smaller.

I think it’s perfectly within the normal range not to be reading before K. I would not hold back a kid from learning a foreign language for that reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

I’m the PP you responded to - this is very helpful, thank you! So is the issue that bc they aren’t up to grade level in English and math, dual language exacerbates the problem because they can’t concebtrate on the core subjects and parents also can’t help bc they don’t have time or speak the second language?

white high SES mom here. It's not only about the kids not being on grade level - it's that instruction in a different language just adds another complication and pretty big barrier between parents and teachers. My kid entered K not knowing how to read and write, and I'm glad I and his teachers could just focus in that without the added layer. Plus, I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of the immersion model. Our K teacher focused like a laser on Englisj literacy using her decades of experience and a research-based curriculum. She would not have been able to do that in an immersion model -- there would have simply been less time. Also, who are the immersion teachers? An immersion model means that the pool of effective, experienced teachers is smaller.

I think it’s perfectly within the normal range not to be reading before K. I would not hold back a kid from learning a foreign language for that reason.

Even the data showing that most students do well in a dual language curriculum, and in some cases out perform their peers, shows that students in dual language will lag a bit in both ELA and spanish reading and writing until 5th grade, at which time they will catch up with their monolingual peers. It requires a leap of faith, and if you aren't sure you are going to stay in the model through the terminal grade of the school, you kid may have gaps or struggle a little.

I do agree with the PP re teh equity issue around students with disabilities; this is a big problem of neighborhood schools being all dual language, especially in DCPS. They do not do a good job at ALL, or supporting kdis with even minor disabilities who shuld be able to achieve biliteracy with appropriate, bilingual supports.

FWIW the dual language charters can't counsel out these students -- or divert them to their monolingual alternative schools -- the way DCPS can and does.

[Anonymous]

I am the PP who first brought up differing needs.
It’s not like our school (not Tyler) pushes out or keeps out white middle class- it just doesn’t have the bandwidth to serve both populations.
The staff is often used to less accountability and harsher disciplinary techniques. Others are trying hard, but how do you teach a second grade classroom with reading levels from K to 6th?
Also what do you spend extra money on: remedial afterschoom math or free coding classes? Fortunately there is a balance there for now but still the school has fewer after school activities than a GS10 school (though they are free).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

I’m the PP you responded to - this is very helpful, thank you! So is the issue that bc they aren’t up to grade level in English and math, dual language exacerbates the problem because they can’t concebtrate on the core subjects and parents also can’t help bc they don’t have time or speak the second language?

white high SES mom here. It's not only about the kids not being on grade level - it's that instruction in a different language just adds another complication and pretty big barrier between parents and teachers. My kid entered K not knowing how to read and write, and I'm glad I and his teachers could just focus in that without the added layer. Plus, I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of the immersion model. Our K teacher focused like a laser on Englisj literacy using her decades of experience and a research-based curriculum. She would not have been able to do that in an immersion model -- there would have simply been less time. Also, who are the immersion teachers? An immersion model means that the pool of effective, experienced teachers is smaller.

I think it’s perfectly within the normal range not to be reading before K. I would not hold back a kid from learning a foreign language for that reason.

Even the data showing that most students do well in a dual language curriculum, and in some cases out perform their peers, shows that students in dual language will lag a bit in both ELA and spanish reading and writing until 5th grade, at which time they will catch up with their monolingual peers. It requires a leap of faith, and if you aren't sure you are going to stay in the model through the terminal grade of the school, you kid may have gaps or struggle a little.

I do agree with the PP re teh equity issue around students with disabilities; this is a big problem of neighborhood schools being all dual language, especially in DCPS. They do not do a good job at ALL, or supporting kdis with even minor disabilities who shuld be able to achieve biliteracy with appropriate, bilingual supports.

FWIW the dual language charters can't counsel out these students -- or divert them to their monolingual alternative schools -- the way DCPS can and does.

The issue around disabilities is a real one among DI programs nationally. It's pretty bad how it disproportionately affects kids who are lower SES.

[Anonymous]

Wow I’m so glad that I can send my kids to an immersion school. Not only is it a great fit for us, but it keeps out ignorant parents who don’t understand immersion or how the mind works.

- middle class non-white special needs parent who is so happy these idiots are scared of foreigners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

I’m the PP you responded to - this is very helpful, thank you! So is the issue that bc they aren’t up to grade level in English and math, dual language exacerbates the problem because they can’t concebtrate on the core subjects and parents also can’t help bc they don’t have time or speak the second language?

white high SES mom here. It's not only about the kids not being on grade level - it's that instruction in a different language just adds another complication and pretty big barrier between parents and teachers. My kid entered K not knowing how to read and write, and I'm glad I and his teachers could just focus in that without the added layer. Plus, I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of the immersion model. Our K teacher focused like a laser on Englisj literacy using her decades of experience and a research-based curriculum. She would not have been able to do that in an immersion model -- there would have simply been less time. Also, who are the immersion teachers? An immersion model means that the pool of effective, experienced teachers is smaller.

I think it’s perfectly within the normal range not to be reading before K. I would not hold back a kid from learning a foreign language for that reason.

Dont waste your time with facts and reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow I’m so glad that I can send my kids to an immersion school. Not only is it a great fit for us, but it keeps out ignorant parents who don’t understand immersion or how the mind works.

- middle class non-white special needs parent who is so happy these idiots are scared of foreigners.

Do you think underprivileged kids get equal access to education in DI programs? Is your child English-dominant?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow I’m so glad that I can send my kids to an immersion school. Not only is it a great fit for us, but it keeps out ignorant parents who don’t understand immersion or how the mind works.

- middle class non-white special needs parent who is so happy these idiots are scared of foreigners.

Ok, I’ll bite.
How does the mind work? And what foreigners has anyone mentioned being afraid of?

[Anonymous]

Students with special needs do not get what the need at these dual language/immersion schools and those schools are happy not to have them. Just look at the demographics of the schools. Special needs students are barely there.