Discussion over whether to expand Tyler dual-lang program turns to gentrification debate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

Yes. My kid attends one (after several years in DCPS). Some of those in the area include WIS (Spanish & French), the Rochambeau (French), and the German school.

The French and German schools were founded to serve the children of French and German diplomats in the area and offer French baccalauréat and German Abitur, not based on a philosophy that a second language per se is beneficial. Even if today they serve a wider population (because immersion has gained popularity), they aren't examples of private schools that offer immersion for its own sake; their origin in completely different. But fair point on WIS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be equitable, access to dual language schools should be available to everyone who wants it.

Native speakers will get a boost, but all English-dominant students should have an equal shot.

Dual-language is wildly popular in the city, but has detractors and is hard to make work within a neighborhood school structure. Make all of these opportunities city-wide schools, with entrance via the lottery, the way the immersion charters are.

It's the only fair thing to do.

You can move IB for a dual language school; case closed.

That is not a real solution and you know it when 80% of DC's public school population is economically disadvantaged.

The economically disadvantaged aren't the ones asking for dual-language in their schools.

How do you figure that?

Many economically disadvantaged families DO choose dual-language schools -- look at DC Bilingual (>50%) and Stokes (52%) on the charter side, Powell (>50%), Bancroft (>50%) and BM (50%) for DCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be equitable, access to dual language schools should be available to everyone who wants it.

Native speakers will get a boost, but all English-dominant students should have an equal shot.

Dual-language is wildly popular in the city, but has detractors and is hard to make work within a neighborhood school structure. Make all of these opportunities city-wide schools, with entrance via the lottery, the way the immersion charters are.

It's the only fair thing to do.

You can move IB for a dual language school; case closed.

That is not a real solution and you know it when 80% of DC's public school population is economically disadvantaged.

The economically disadvantaged aren't the ones asking for dual-language in their schools.

Obviously you have never stepped foot in my neighborhood in ward 8. Or talked to any of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

Yes. My kid attends one (after several years in DCPS). Some of those in the area include WIS (Spanish & French), the Rochambeau (French), and the German school.

The French and German schools were founded to serve the children of French and German diplomats in the area and offer French baccalauréat and German Abitur, not based on a philosophy that a second language per se is beneficial. Even if today they serve a wider population (because immersion has gained popularity), they aren't examples of private schools that offer immersion for its own sake; their origin in completely different. But fair point on WIS.

Another private immersion school (Mandarin/English) will open fall 2019 in DC. It’s called The Whittle School (https://www.whittleschool.org/en/admissions/). Start saving now though, because this school will cost close to $50k when it opens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be equitable, access to dual language schools should be available to everyone who wants it.

Native speakers will get a boost, but all English-dominant students should have an equal shot.

Dual-language is wildly popular in the city, but has detractors and is hard to make work within a neighborhood school structure. Make all of these opportunities city-wide schools, with entrance via the lottery, the way the immersion charters are.

It's the only fair thing to do.

You can move IB for a dual language school; case closed.

That is not a real solution and you know it when 80% of DC's public school population is economically disadvantaged.

The economically disadvantaged aren't the ones asking for dual-language in their schools.

How do you figure that?

Many economically disadvantaged families DO choose dual-language schools -- look at DC Bilingual (>50%) and Stokes (52%) on the charter side, Powell (>50%), Bancroft (>50%) and BM (50%) for DCPS.

DP. I don't know one way or the other whether economically disadvantaged families prefer DL. But the stats you cite above could be because many such families do not have strong IB schools - proportionally higher than higher SES families. Getting into the DL charters may be function of the lack of good IB. With the DCPS, the separate lotteries for Spanish-dominant probably also skews. I can't speak to Stokes French.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To be equitable, access to dual language schools should be available to everyone who wants it.

Native speakers will get a boost, but all English-dominant students should have an equal shot.

Dual-language is wildly popular in the city, but has detractors and is hard to make work within a neighborhood school structure. Make all of these opportunities city-wide schools, with entrance via the lottery, the way the immersion charters are.

It's the only fair thing to do.

You have chosen to live in a capitalist society, dear. Thus, there is no true equity in education. I suggest that you educate your children in a socialist country if you’re truly seeking equity because it’s not happening here.

Oyster has been a neighborhood bilingual school for almost 45 years—the first public language immersion school in the DC Metro. The school has thrived, in large part, because of its affluent IB population. DCPS has resisted calls to make Oyster a citywide language immersion magnet for decades. It would be wise for it to continue to do so. DCPS really needs to keep its hands off one of its few successful (and diverse) schools.

Language immersion charter schools are the citywide schools you’re looking for—not Oyster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

I think perhaps not always

https://www.fcps.edu/academics/world-languages-immersion-programs

https://www.apsva.us/school-overviews/key-immersion-school/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be equitable, access to dual language schools should be available to everyone who wants it.

Native speakers will get a boost, but all English-dominant students should have an equal shot.

Dual-language is wildly popular in the city, but has detractors and is hard to make work within a neighborhood school structure. Make all of these opportunities city-wide schools, with entrance via the lottery, the way the immersion charters are.

It's the only fair thing to do.

You can move IB for a dual language school; case closed.

That is not a real solution and you know it when 80% of DC's public school population is economically disadvantaged.

The economically disadvantaged aren't the ones asking for dual-language in their schools.

Obviously you have never stepped foot in my neighborhood in ward 8. Or talked to any of us.

You aren’t the only economically disadvantaged group in the city for Gods sake. You can’t run everything into the ground because it doesn’t help you.

There are a lot of disadvantages Latinos in the city who love these programs and who also matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Brent parents will crap themselves if their kids have to go to school with the Potomac gardens kids.

Many of the kids from Potomac Gardens attend charter schools. Hence Tyler being 75% OOB.

Where do you think the 25% IB kids are coming from? It’s the gardens. And you can’t argue that Brent’s parents wouldn’t crap themselves about sending their kids to school with those kids. It’s just a fact.

The 25% is probably closer to half PG/half non-subsidized housing. Where do you think the Spanish Immersion families are coming from?

Tyler is only 11% Latinx and only 26% IB. There should be a minimum of 20-25% (half of the immersion seats) to run a viable dual-language program. This program makes no sense to be in this location.

Move it to Ward 4 and 5 where people speak the target language.

Ward 6 also matters and needs a bilingual school.

[Anonymous]

Why exactly does Ward 6 need a bilingual school?

There are no enclaves of non-english speakers to draw from and help ensure the model will actual work. No community to reinforce the culture.

And several other wards do not have a DCPS immersion elementary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

Yes. My kid attends one (after several years in DCPS). Some of those in the area include WIS (Spanish & French), the Rochambeau (French), and the German school.

The French and German schools were founded to serve the children of French and German diplomats in the area and offer French baccalauréat and German Abitur, not based on a philosophy that a second language per se is beneficial. Even if today they serve a wider population (because immersion has gained popularity), they aren't examples of private schools that offer immersion for its own sake; their origin in completely different. But fair point on WIS.

Another private immersion school (Mandarin/English) will open fall 2019 in DC. It’s called The Whittle School (https://www.whittleschool.org/en/admissions/). Start saving now though, because this school will cost close to $50k when it opens.

The Whittle school is not immersion in the sense that DCPS and is based on model in New York, it is an international school - different !

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

Yes. My kid attends one (after several years in DCPS). Some of those in the area include WIS (Spanish & French), the Rochambeau (French), and the German school.

The French and German schools were founded to serve the children of French and German diplomats in the area and offer French baccalauréat and German Abitur, not based on a philosophy that a second language per se is beneficial. Even if today they serve a wider population (because immersion has gained popularity), they aren't examples of private schools that offer immersion for its own sake; their origin in completely different. But fair point on WIS.

Another private immersion school (Mandarin/English) will open fall 2019 in DC. It’s called The Whittle School (https://www.whittleschool.org/en/admissions/). Start saving now though, because this school will cost close to $50k when it opens.

The Whittle school is not immersion in the sense that DCPS and is based on model in New York, it is an international school - different !

Sorry "Global" ... hrough individual and group projects, our core courses connect knowledge to problem-solving, presentation, and performance, making learning “sticky,” or more permanent. Our core interdisciplinary courses are Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math (STEM), plus Humanities, and Creative Arts and Design.

Content mastery in the above not Spanish dual-language is important, sure no one is against learning a language or even two but doens't have to be a dual-language school. A fad and out of date model for the masses, great for the few ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Challenges Faced by Language Immersion

Designing, implementing, and providing ongoing support for language immersion education is no easy task. Pressing challenges include staffing, curriculum development and program articulation. Program administrators struggle to find high-quality, licensed teachers who can demonstrate advanced levels of oral and written proficiency in the chosen language. Once teachers are hired, the search begins for developmentally appropriate curriculum, materials, and resources that meet local district and state standards. Elementary-level challenges are met with additional secondary-level issues such as scheduling and balancing students' educational priorities as the program moves up and through the middle and high school years.

Inadequate teacher preparation for immersion programs remains a challenge in this field. Teachers need specialized professional development support to meet the complex task of concurrently addressing content, language, and literacy development in an integrated, subject-matter-driven language program.[xxx] However, teacher educators and immersion specialists who can provide useful and relevant professional learning experiences for the immersion staff are in short supply. In addition to professional development related to curriculum design and pedagogical techniques, both native and non-native teachers report the need for ongoing support for their own proficiency in the immersion language.[xxxi]

Chinese teachers whose educational experiences took place in more traditional, teacher-centered classrooms are aware of significant cultural differences and participant expectations. For example, US schools place a strong emphasis on social skills and language for communicative purposes. Children expect learner-centered activities with real-life tasks. Chinese teachers often hold a different set of expectations for students and thus, they frequently need support for classroom management strategies and techniques.[xxxii]

Immersion teachers face significant hurdles in the sheer range of learner differences. The impact of students' variations in language proficiency, literacy development, learning support available to the student in the home, achievement abilities, learning styles, and special needs grows exponentially when teaching and learning occurs in two languages.[xxxiii] Educators and parents struggle to identify and implement research-based policies and practices for learners who have language, literacy, and learning difficulties. Many immersion programs lack the necessary resources and bilingual specialists to provide appropriate instructional support, assessment, and interventions.[xxxiv]

Promoting student understanding of more abstract and complex concepts becomes increasingly difficult in the upper elementary grades and beyond. Some upper-elementary immersion teachers, in particular those who teach in partial or 50:50 programs, report difficulties in teaching advanced-level subject matter because students' cognitive development is at a higher level than their proficiency in the second language.[xxxv] This challenge becomes more pronounced in programs where the immersion language is character-based, since literacy development is more time-consuming and demanding.[xxxvi]

One of the greatest challenges for immersion teachers is to keep their students using the second language, especially when working and talking amongst themselves. This challenge is particularly pronounced once the children have moved beyond the primary grades. For instance, studies in both one-way and two-way immersion classes point to fifth-grade students using English more frequently than their non-English language.[xxxvii] Facilitating student use of the immersion language in ways that promote ongoing language development is an uphill battle for teachers.[xxxviii]

Finally, outcome-oriented research reveals that immersion students, especially those who begin the program as native English speakers, don't quite achieve native-like levels of speaking and writing skills. Studies consistently find that English-speaking immersion students' oral language lacks grammatical accuracy, lexical specificity, native pronunciation, and is less complex and sociolinguistically appropriate when compared with the language native speakers of the second language produce.[xxxix] Further, students' use of the immersion language appears to become increasingly anglicized over time,[xl] and can be marked by a more formal academic discourse style.[xli] Even in high-performing immersion programs, advancing students' second language proficiency beyond the intermediate levels remains a much sought after end goal."

http://carla.umn.edu/immersion/documents/ImmersionResearch_TaraFortune.html

Excellent, thanks very much for posting. Please circulate widely. Go, Univ of Minnesota researchers.

Most of this is simply common sense for parents who go into immersion with their eyes open. Most high SES parents in this town seem not to want to consider the downsides of immersion study for families where adults don't speak the target language in the home. Such parents strongly prefer to work off the erroneous assumption that there is in fact no downside to immersion study. That's the conventional wisdom anyway.

[Anonymous]

It's fine to have dual language as an option (have half the school non-Spanish or make the school city-wide) but it absolutely should not be foisted on everyone. It certainly shouldn't be the only option as your neighborhood, inbound school. Just because rich, white people want it doesn't mean that it's good for everyone or that everyone wants it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's fine to have dual language as an option (have half the school non-Spanish or make the school city-wide) but it absolutely should not be foisted on everyone. It certainly shouldn't be the only option as your neighborhood, inbound school. Just because rich, white people want it doesn't mean that it's good for everyone or that everyone wants it.

So what would you do about these schools that are already 100% immersion?

Oyster-Adams
Bancroft
Powell (up to 3rd)
Bruce Monroe