Forced to stand for pledge

[Anonymous]

I can put you in contact with the Russian Embassy. They will probably take you.

[Anonymous]

Children standing in unison, positioning their hands in a certain gesture, and chanting slogans together at a flag is exactly what the morning routine is for schools in Cuba and North Korea. All the little kids in their Young Pioneer scarves standing there in rows watching the flag being raised and reciting, "Pioneers of communism, we will be like Che!" (or Kim). You can watch videos of it on YouTube. Not a single western democracy does anything like this except us, and I am completely baffled by the same people who would scream bloody murder at the slightest hint of anything "socialist" thinking that this is the image we want our American children imitating. This sort of morning school routine has pretty much been the exclusive purview of totalitarian regimes for the last 80 years--Hitler, the USSR and its satellites, etc. Indoctrinate the kids young to line up and chant patriotic slogans demonstrating fealty to the regime. WHY would you want your kids copying this? Do you utterly lack the historical comparisons for this? It is NOT the same as the national anthem. Every country has a national anthem that it's basic manners to stand for. Only certain types of countries do THIS, countries we do not want to be anything like. Watching it turns my stomach. Just add a red bandanna and a Kim poster and you're all set!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Nobody on this thread has said that kids should never be required to do anything. This thread is about schools requiring kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. The Supreme Court has ruled that it is unconstitutional for schools to require kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. I.e., requiring kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE violates their FIRST AMENDMENT rights.

Doesn't say anything about standing. Sorry. They are not standing to salute. They are standing in respect for others--just like you are silent when others pray. If you don't want to say the Lord's Prayer at a funeral, you do not have to do so--but, it is expected that you will remain silent for others.

Well the esteemed Supreme Court justices disagreed with you. They clearly argue in the decision that no only is saying the pledge a form of political speech, but gestures can also be political speech (physically saluting the flag, bowing or baring the head, or kneeling). Because political speech cannot be compelled by the state and compulsory physical gestures or actions are a form of political speech, physical actions cannot be compelled by the state.

Which is why you can't force someone to bake a same sex wedding cake. I'm with ya. Leave people alone.

[Anonymous]

The way to handle this is for the overall community to shame people who sit. Just like boycotting or any other coercive but legal action.

[Anonymous]

The rest of the world looks on and shakes their head at the deluded Americans shooting each other all day while still insisting that the kids stand and say a pledge with their hands on their hearts.

There are many other countries that manage to have much lower crime rates (and no massacres!) whose citizens conduct themselves with far more respect for the country... and who don't stand and say a pledge to the flag.

I can understand not dropping the flag, not stepping on the flag, not burning the flag, etc.

But not standing for the pledge?

We need to get our priorities in order.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The rest of the world looks on and shakes their head at the deluded Americans shooting each other all day while still insisting that the kids stand and say a pledge with their hands on their hearts.

There are many other countries that manage to have much lower crime rates (and no massacres!) whose citizens conduct themselves with far more respect for the country... and who don't stand and say a pledge to the flag.

I can understand not dropping the flag, not stepping on the flag, not burning the flag, etc.

But not standing for the pledge?

We need to get our priorities in order.

The rest of the world needs sexy , armed , individual rights USA to be their daddy and protect them constantly. The rest of the world needs to stop being dependent pantywaists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Children standing in unison, positioning their hands in a certain gesture, and chanting slogans together at a flag is exactly what the morning routine is for schools in Cuba and North Korea. All the little kids in their Young Pioneer scarves standing there in rows watching the flag being raised and reciting, "Pioneers of communism, we will be like Che!" (or Kim). You can watch videos of it on YouTube. Not a single western democracy does anything like this except us, and I am completely baffled by the same people who would scream bloody murder at the slightest hint of anything "socialist" thinking that this is the image we want our American children imitating. This sort of morning school routine has pretty much been the exclusive purview of totalitarian regimes for the last 80 years--Hitler, the USSR and its satellites, etc. Indoctrinate the kids young to line up and chant patriotic slogans demonstrating fealty to the regime. WHY would you want your kids copying this? Do you utterly lack the historical comparisons for this? It is NOT the same as the national anthem. Every country has a national anthem that it's basic manners to stand for. Only certain types of countries do THIS, countries we do not want to be anything like. Watching it turns my stomach. Just add a red bandanna and a Kim poster and you're all set!

You don't understand the difference between saluting a person (Hitler, Kim, Che, Lenin, Stalin) and a flag that represents us all? Big difference.

[Anonymous]

Does anyone on this thread understand the history of the pledge? The context in which it was created? Or that one of its prominent authors was a socialist? That the phrase "under God" was added in the 1950s when were battling "atheistic Communism? To those who are insisting that it is "unpatriotic" to not stand for the pledge, and referencing back to James Clavell's story, can you - or your children for that matter - explain the meaning of the pledge of allegiance, each and every word, or do you and they just mindlessly mouth it with no thought to its actual meaning?

[Anonymous]

Here's what happened in Montgomery County, MD a few years back when a teacher, mistakenly, tried to compel a student to stand for the pledge:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/23/AR2010022303889.html

She was forced to apologize. In a similar Florida case, the school district in question had to pay a $32,000 fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Nobody on this thread has said that kids should never be required to do anything. This thread is about schools requiring kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. The Supreme Court has ruled that it is unconstitutional for schools to require kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. I.e., requiring kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE violates their FIRST AMENDMENT rights.

Doesn't say anything about standing. Sorry. They are not standing to salute. They are standing in respect for others--just like you are silent when others pray.[i][u] If you don't want to say the Lord's Prayer at a funeral, you do not have to do so--but, it is expected that you will remain silent for others.

People are silent when others pray because it would be disruptive to the prayers if they started talking on their cell phone or singing the ABCs while the group is praying. If a student were running around the classroom shouting or doing cartwheels or otherwise disrupting the classroom activities, then the student would be being disrespectful and should be corrected. But sitting quietly and in no way preventing anyone else from pledging is not being disrespectful. Just like it would be totally respectful to remain quietly seated if a group stood up and said the Our Father.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Children standing in unison, positioning their hands in a certain gesture, and chanting slogans together at a flag is exactly what the morning routine is for schools in Cuba and North Korea. All the little kids in their Young Pioneer scarves standing there in rows watching the flag being raised and reciting, "Pioneers of communism, we will be like Che!" (or Kim). You can watch videos of it on YouTube. Not a single western democracy does anything like this except us, and I am completely baffled by the same people who would scream bloody murder at the slightest hint of anything "socialist" thinking that this is the image we want our American children imitating. This sort of morning school routine has pretty much been the exclusive purview of totalitarian regimes for the last 80 years--Hitler, the USSR and its satellites, etc. Indoctrinate the kids young to line up and chant patriotic slogans demonstrating fealty to the regime. WHY would you want your kids copying this? Do you utterly lack the historical comparisons for this? It is NOT the same as the national anthem. Every country has a national anthem that it's basic manners to stand for. Only certain types of countries do THIS, countries we do not want to be anything like. Watching it turns my stomach. Just add a red bandanna and a Kim poster and you're all set!

You don't understand the difference between saluting a person (Hitler, Kim, Che, Lenin, Stalin) and a flag that represents us all? Big difference.

They're not saluting a person. They're saluting their flag, same as us. Maybe it's supposed to represent saluting a person, but they're doing it to the flag, and that's what the visual is. And I find the similarities really off-putting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The rest of the world looks on and shakes their head at the deluded Americans shooting each other all day while still insisting that the kids stand and say a pledge with their hands on their hearts.

There are many other countries that manage to have much lower crime rates (and no massacres!) whose citizens conduct themselves with far more respect for the country... and who don't stand and say a pledge to the flag.

I can understand not dropping the flag, not stepping on the flag, not burning the flag, etc.

But not standing for the pledge?

We need to get our priorities in order.

The rest of the world needs sexy , armed , individual rights USA to be their daddy and protect them constantly. The rest of the world needs to stop being dependent pantywaists.

The 'individual rights' point apparently isn't as strong as you think, hence this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The rest of the world looks on and shakes their head at the deluded Americans shooting each other all day while still insisting that the kids stand and say a pledge with their hands on their hearts.

There are many other countries that manage to have much lower crime rates (and no massacres!) whose citizens conduct themselves with far more respect for the country... and who don't stand and say a pledge to the flag.

I can understand not dropping the flag, not stepping on the flag, not burning the flag, etc.

But not standing for the pledge?

We need to get our priorities in order.

The rest of the world needs sexy , armed , individual rights USA to be their daddy and protect them constantly. The rest of the world needs to stop being dependent pantywaists.

Totally love this comment. +100.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The rest of the world looks on and shakes their head at the deluded Americans shooting each other all day while still insisting that the kids stand and say a pledge with their hands on their hearts.

There are many other countries that manage to have much lower crime rates (and no massacres!) whose citizens conduct themselves with far more respect for the country... and who don't stand and say a pledge to the flag.

I can understand not dropping the flag, not stepping on the flag, not burning the flag, etc.

But not standing for the pledge?

We need to get our priorities in order.

The rest of the world needs sexy , armed , individual rights USA to be their daddy and protect them constantly. The rest of the world needs to stop being dependent pantywaists.

Totally love this comment. +100.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The way to handle this is for the overall community to shame people who sit. Just like boycotting or any other coercive but legal action.

Only it that community values conformity over FREEDOM and LIBERTY. And effectively wants to crap on the flag.