Forced to stand for pledge

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Correct. You can. But it is not required. That's entirely the point.

1. We are talking about classrooms.
2. We are not talking about pledging. We are talking about standing. Teachers have kids stand for all sorts of things: stretching, singing, following directions, etc.
3. Standing for the pledge is not the same thing as saying the pledge. It is the same as being silent when others are praying. It is the respectful thing to do.
4. No one is requiring anyone to pledge.

If it is the same as being silent, then why not let kids show respect just by being silent?

Seriously? Because the others are silent. When the pledge is said, the others are standing. It is about respect. Why would you refuse to stand?

Why do you hate America? Why do you sh1t over its ideals with your desire to force everyone to stand?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Correct. You can. But it is not required. That's entirely the point.

1. We are talking about classrooms.
2. We are not talking about pledging. We are talking about standing. Teachers have kids stand for all sorts of things: stretching, singing, following directions, etc.
3. Standing for the pledge is not the same thing as saying the pledge. It is the same as being silent when others are praying. It is the respectful thing to do.
4. No one is requiring anyone to pledge.

If it is the same as being silent, then why not let kids show respect just by being silent?

Seriously? Because the others are silent. When the pledge is said, the others are standing. It is about respect. Why would you refuse to stand?

Well, you think it's about respect. Other people think it's about other things. For example, there are people who think that standing is part of saying the pledge of allegiance. Of course such people don't stand when others say the pledge of allegiance. If you choose to interpret that as disrespect, well, ok, but that's not why they're not standing.

Do you also think it's disrespectful when you're at a funeral in church, and the pastor or minister asks the assembled people to kneel for prayer, and some people remain seated? Or when you're at a public event, and a religious leader says, "Let's bow our heads", but some people don't bow their heads?

[Anonymous]

Do you also think it's disrespectful when you're at a funeral in church, and the pastor or minister asks the assembled people to kneel for prayer, and some people remain seated? Or when you're at a public event, and a religious leader says, "Let's bow our heads", but some people don't bow their heads?

I usually don't look around to see who is not bowing their head. Why? Because I am conforming. People do not kneel in my church, but, if attending another church, and asked to kneel, I kneel. It is the respectful thing to do.

It is pretty obvious, when saying the pledge, who remains seated.

I have attended events on a military post where there were foreign guests. A military parade, for example. When the pledge was said, the guests stood. They did not say the pledge. It is about respect. And, I have attended events when a foreign flag was flown--when people stand, I stand.

Again, standing is not pledging.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Do you also think it's disrespectful when you're at a funeral in church, and the pastor or minister asks the assembled people to kneel for prayer, and some people remain seated? Or when you're at a public event, and a religious leader says, "Let's bow our heads", but some people don't bow their heads?

I usually don't look around to see who is not bowing their head. Why? Because I am conforming. People do not kneel in my church, but, if attending another church, and asked to kneel, I kneel. It is the respectful thing to do.

It is pretty obvious, when saying the pledge, who remains seated.

I have attended events on a military post where there were foreign guests. A military parade, for example. When the pledge was said, the guests stood. They did not say the pledge. It is about respect. And, I have attended events when a foreign flag was flown--when people stand, I stand.

Again, standing is not pledging.

SAYS YOU. Other people, who are not you, have opinions about this that are different from yours. In the US, the government must allow everyone to act according to their own opinions on this matter. Yay, US! Freedom of speech! Freedom of religion! -- right?

[Anonymous]

So, you don't want kids to be respectful in school? Okay. I now understand. Glad your kid was not in my class. I taught a child who was a Jehovah's Witness. He stood when we said the pledge. He had the option of leaving the room. His mom was cool with this. And, this was First Grade.

The rest of the kids gladly stood. And, when we studied the flag, we learned patriotic songs and waved small American flags. The kids loved it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, you don't want kids to be respectful in school? Okay. I now understand. Glad your kid was not in my class. I taught a child who was a Jehovah's Witness. He stood when we said the pledge. He had the option of leaving the room. His mom was cool with this. And, this was First Grade.

The rest of the kids gladly stood. And, when we studied the flag, we learned patriotic songs and waved small American flags. The kids loved it.

PP, one more time -- different people have different beliefs, opinions, and ideas. And the freedom to express those beliefs, opinions, and ideas free from government control is right there in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. That's one of the things that makes me proud of my country.

But if you're determined to be offended by people who choose not to stand for the pledge of allegiance for reasons that have nothing to do with lack of respect for you, society, or America, I can't stop you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, you don't want kids to be respectful in school? Okay. I now understand. Glad your kid was not in my class. I taught a child who was a Jehovah's Witness. He stood when we said the pledge. He had the option of leaving the room. His mom was cool with this. And, this was First Grade.

The rest of the kids gladly stood. And, when we studied the flag, we learned patriotic songs and waved small American flags. The kids loved it.

You don’t want the kids to learn what the flag actually stands for? You sound like a crappy teacher.

[Anonymous]

No, kids should never be required to do anything. It violates their rights. (eye roll). Stand and be silent if you wish but schools would be anarchy if every kids personal beliefs and whims were indulged. Part of being a kid means following rules set by adults. Get over it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would you be upset about something so small? Dedication and pride in one's country (native or adopted) should not be an issue. Your kid should stand because it's not about the President, it's about the women and men in the armed forces who serve EACH.AND.EVERY.DAY. so that your kid has certain freedoms.[i] Why can't you and your child have respect for these people? Why are you being so hostile about your child being grateful for the freedoms that he currently has?

This is arrant nonsense. Rather, it is a right wing talking point - a post facto justification in an attempt to shame people into acting the way the right wing deems appropriate.

Can you please point to the part that references the members of the armed forces? Like many people on this thread, I have said the Pledge well over a thousand times, so I will save you the trouble - you can't. It doesn't exist. So, for you, the Pledge is about honoring servicemen and women. But you decided that for yourself. And like you, the rest of us get to decide for ourselves. For some, it is about democratic ideals; for others, it is about a belief in a nation that we grew up believing is great; for others, it is incompatible with their deeply held religious beliefs (and I'll wager that in other contexts, you are really big on "religious freedom," just not when it is a different religion); and for others, it (and the flag) are symbols of oppression of various groups of people. You don't get to tell anyone what the Pledge, or the flag, means to them, and the hubris to think you can is directly contrary to being "grateful for the freedoms" you claim to support.

Why do you object to standing for the flag? Seriously. As for our military, they fight for what the flag represents. It sounds to me like you do not like our country. Just because you CAN sit, does not mean it is not disrespectful to others in the class or to our military who fight for the flag and country. It is disrespectful not to stand. If you don't choose to say the pledge, that's on you. No one notices, I guess. If they do, it shows who you are (unless you are not a citizen of this country.) It shows that you put your personal gripes over country. You can protest policies. You can protest our leaders. That's fine. But, you should not be protesting our country and what it stands for. The flag is a symbol. That is why people get upset when the football players kneel. They are using the freedom the flag stands for to protest what the flag stands for. It's kind of counterintuitive.

Sure, Kapernick has the right to kneel. And, people have the right to object to what he is doing. It shows what he is--someone who is ungrateful for the opportunities he has been given. He has plenty of opportunities to object to policies and behaviors outside of thumbing his nose at our country.

All of this above and Kaepernick wonders why he is currently a free agent. He got cute and people voted with their wallets. OP, is trying to get her kid ostracized. Because if I had a kid in her class and my kid told me that her kid couldn't have the decency to stand, that kid would not be invited to playdates or my home, alongside his wacko parents.

And if I found out you were acting in such a bigoted manner, my kid, who chooses to stand, would not be at your house either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, you don't want kids to be respectful in school? Okay. I now understand. Glad your kid was not in my class. I taught a child who was a Jehovah's Witness. He stood when we said the pledge. He had the option of leaving the room. His mom was cool with this. And, this was First Grade.

The rest of the kids gladly stood. And, when we studied the flag, we learned patriotic songs and waved small American flags. The kids loved it.

You broke the law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, you don't want kids to be respectful in school? Okay. I now understand. Glad your kid was not in my class. I taught a child who was a Jehovah's Witness. He stood when we said the pledge. He had the option of leaving the room. His mom was cool with this. And, this was First Grade.

The rest of the kids gladly stood. And, when we studied the flag, we learned patriotic songs and waved small American flags. The kids loved it.

You broke the law.

Actually, no. You don't understand the law. The kid had an option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, kids should never be required to do anything. It violates their rights. (eye roll). Stand and be silent if you wish but schools would be anarchy if every kids personal beliefs and whims were indulged. Part of being a kid means following rules set by adults. Get over it.

Nobody on this thread has said that kids should never be required to do anything. This thread is about schools requiring kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. The Supreme Court has ruled that it is unconstitutional for schools to require kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. I.e., requiring kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE violates their FIRST AMENDMENT rights.

You know the "and liberty and justice for all" part of the pledge of allegiance? This is one of the things that part is about.

[Anonymous]

Nobody on this thread has said that kids should never be required to do anything. This thread is about schools requiring kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. The Supreme Court has ruled that it is unconstitutional for schools to require kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. I.e., requiring kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE violates their FIRST AMENDMENT rights.

Doesn't say anything about standing. Sorry. They are not standing to salute. They are standing in respect for others--just like you are silent when others pray. If you don't want to say the Lord's Prayer at a funeral, you do not have to do so--but, it is expected that you will remain silent for others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, you don't want kids to be respectful in school? Okay. I now understand. Glad your kid was not in my class. I taught a child who was a Jehovah's Witness. He stood when we said the pledge. He had the option of leaving the room. His mom was cool with this. And, this was First Grade.

The rest of the kids gladly stood. And, when we studied the flag, we learned patriotic songs and waved small American flags. The kids loved it.

You broke the law.

Actually, no. You don't understand the law. The kid had an option.

The law is crystal clear that staying seated in the classroom is an option. Asking a child to leave, or telling them that they need to leave if they don't stand, is not legal.

Here's one case.

https://www.aclu.org/news/standing-right-sit-down-aclu-maryland-defends-student-harassed-teacher-not-standing-pledge

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Nobody on this thread has said that kids should never be required to do anything. This thread is about schools requiring kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. The Supreme Court has ruled that it is unconstitutional for schools to require kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. I.e., requiring kids TO STAND FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE violates their FIRST AMENDMENT rights.

Doesn't say anything about standing. Sorry. They are not standing to salute. They are standing in respect for others--just like you are silent when others pray. If you don't want to say the Lord's Prayer at a funeral, you do not have to do so--but, it is expected that you will remain silent for others.

Well the esteemed Supreme Court justices disagreed with you. They clearly argue in the decision that no only is saying the pledge a form of political speech, but gestures can also be political speech (physically saluting the flag, bowing or baring the head, or kneeling). Because political speech cannot be compelled by the state and compulsory physical gestures or actions are a form of political speech, physical actions cannot be compelled by the state.